IRC log of swxg on 2010-04-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:05:01 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #swxg
15:05:01 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:05:03 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:05:03 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #swxg
15:05:05 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 7994
15:05:05 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see INC_SWXG()11:00AM scheduled to start 5 minutes ago
15:05:06 [trackbot]
Meeting: Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference
15:05:06 [trackbot]
Date: 14 April 2010
15:05:08 [pchampin]
zakim, mute me
15:05:08 [Zakim]
sorry, pchampin, I don't know what conference this is
15:05:16 [MacTed]
Zakim, this is 7994
15:05:16 [Zakim]
ok, MacTed; that matches INC_SWXG()11:00AM
15:05:21 [MacTed]
Zakim, who's here?
15:05:21 [Zakim]
On the phone I see pchampin, MIT-G451, OpenLink_Software, [IPcaller]
15:05:23 [pchampin]
zakim, mute me
15:05:23 [Zakim]
pchampin should now be muted
15:05:33 [MacTed]
Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:05:33 [Zakim]
+MacTed; got it
15:05:39 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
15:05:39 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
15:06:15 [MacTed]
Zakim, who's here?
15:06:15 [Zakim]
On the phone I see pchampin (muted), MIT-G451, MacTed (muted), [IPcaller]
15:06:18 [Zakim]
15:06:21 [MacTed]
Zakim, who's on irc?
15:06:21 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, MacTed.
15:06:22 [hhalpin]
topic: Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2010-04-15T15:00-16:00GMT
15:06:33 [Zakim]
15:06:37 [hhalpin]
chair: hhalpin
15:06:38 [melvster]
Zakim, ??P12 is me
15:06:38 [Zakim]
+melvster; got it
15:06:43 [melvster]
i can scribe
15:06:45 [MacTed]
something's weird with Zakim again...
15:06:58 [yoshiaki]
zakim, IPcaller is me
15:06:58 [Zakim]
+yoshiaki; got it
15:07:00 [hhalpin]
scribe: melvster
15:07:10 [hhalpin]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:07:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate hhalpin
15:07:31 [melvster]
tho my IP will reset in about 55 minutes
15:07:56 [tinkster]
tinkster has joined #swxg
15:08:14 [Zakim]
+ +34.91.639.aaaa
15:08:18 [hhalpin]
15:08:23 [hhalpin]
15:08:34 [hhalpin]
APPROVED: Minutes from 4-07 approved.
15:08:43 [MacTed]
for attendance ... IRC (currently) shows : yoshiaki pchampin hhalpin oshani MacTed melvster AlexPassant tinkster
15:08:45 [rreck]
rreck has joined #SWXG
15:09:02 [melvster]
hhalpin: looking at policy languages
15:09:11 [hhalpin]
15:09:17 [melvster]
... next week larger overview, outside of sem web, inc. XACML
15:09:24 [hhalpin]
APPORVED: meet next week 4-22
15:09:31 [melvster]
15:09:40 [hhalpin]
topic: Action Reminders
15:10:03 [Zakim]
15:10:16 [rreck]
zakim, mute me
15:10:16 [Zakim]
rreck should now be muted
15:10:18 [MacTed]
15:10:26 [rreck]
wonder how zakim knew me
15:10:48 [rreck]
they must have gotten the email
15:10:51 [melvster]
... everyone that has an open action isnt on the phone
15:11:00 [melvster]
... will send people personal reminders
15:11:43 [hhalpin]
ACTION: hhalpin to send personal reminders that final report actions should be done before next meeting
15:11:44 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-137 - Send personal reminders that final report actions should be done before next meeting [on Harry Halpin - due 2010-04-21].
15:11:57 [melvster]
... let's go over to oshani
15:12:03 [melvster]
... from MIT DIG
15:12:05 [oshani]
Slides of my talk:
15:12:07 [hhalpin]
topic: Oshani of MIT/DIG on her work on policy-aware content re-use
15:12:41 [melvster]
... use case where someones picture was taken from flickr
15:12:45 [melvster]
... advertising campagn
15:12:54 [melvster]
... but it was legal acc. to the rules, to use it
15:12:59 [melvster]
... pen friend
15:13:10 [hhalpin]
15:13:12 [melvster]
oshani: slides on irc
15:13:31 [melvster]
... im a phd student at DIG MIT
15:13:38 [melvster]
... focuses mainly on policies for the web
15:13:47 [melvster]
... how it relates to sem web
15:14:03 [melvster]
... first a small example, of why it's important to make people policy aware
15:14:13 [melvster]
... discuss a few tools we've developed in our group
15:14:22 [melvster]
... talk about 'respect my privcay'
15:14:46 [melvster]
... lots of content on the web 3.6bn on flickr, 1 trillion web pages
15:15:16 [melvster]
... people put their content on the web, and expect people to properly attribute
15:15:30 [melvster]
... cc licences is the de facto licence
15:15:52 [melvster]
... meant to be a rights expression, rather enforcement, expressed in human/machine readable format
15:16:08 [hhalpin]
Creative Commons I think was one of the main use cases for the creation of RDFa (i.e. RDF markup inside HTML)
15:16:09 [melvster]
... human readable, icons, text for lawyers
15:16:17 [melvster]
... machine readable too
15:16:28 [melvster]
... 100m flikr images CC licenced
15:16:33 [pchampin]
slide 6
15:16:45 [melvster]
... cc licences support different uses
15:16:53 [melvster]
... Share Alike most common
15:16:56 [melvster]
... non commercial use
15:17:11 [melvster]
... no derivatives, means you must use as is
15:17:15 [melvster]
... people can mix content
15:17:18 [pchampin]
slide 7
15:17:27 [melvster]
... most search engines support CC, yahoo google
15:17:35 [pchampin]
slide 8
15:17:47 [melvster]
... most content sites support CC
15:18:02 [melvster]
... you can generate your own CC licences
15:18:09 [melvster]
... from
15:18:22 [melvster]
... you can generate from a wizard
15:18:31 [melvster]
15:18:37 [melvster]
... cc:AttributionURL
15:18:42 [pchampin]
slide 10
15:18:46 [melvster]
... cc:morePermissions
15:18:53 [melvster]
... using RDF to describe licences
15:19:02 [melvster]
... licence has a UIR
15:19:08 [melvster]
15:19:12 [pchampin]
slide 11
15:19:20 [rreck]
you could color code the edges
15:19:22 [melvster]
... human readable format is easy to read
15:19:30 [melvster]
... also uses RDFa
15:19:39 [melvster]
... will show you the permissions
15:20:17 [melvster]
... eg free to share / remix and the permissions beyond are availailble at <URI> attribution, and can properly attribute the person
15:20:18 [pchampin]
slide 13
15:20:34 [melvster]
... wanted to see if people are actually aware of these things
15:20:54 [melvster]
... 78% - 94% are not aware of CC
15:21:02 [melvster]
... we used flickr images
15:21:18 [melvster]
... CC did a survey saying images are the most commonly used content
15:21:27 [melvster]
... flickr has the largest collection of CC images
15:21:35 [melvster]
... nice URI
15:21:40 [melvster]
... to extract photo information
15:21:57 [melvster]
... used technorati to generate samples
15:22:07 [melvster]
... randomized selection of flikr image URIs
15:22:32 [melvster]
... authority rank, varies over time, and we collected 3 samples
15:22:37 [pchampin]
slide 17
15:22:50 [melvster]
... used CC attribution
15:23:01 [melvster]
... one of the well defined CC licences out there
15:23:11 [melvster]
... use username
15:23:21 [melvster]
... use URL
15:23:32 [melvster]
... close to wherever that content is used
15:23:57 [melvster]
... flickr username or full name of user, URL was flickr user url
15:24:00 [melvster]
... either /or
15:24:12 [melvster]
... questions?
15:24:26 [melvster]
hhalpin: was my intution, but this is the first statistics
15:24:32 [melvster]
... is there any related work?
15:24:36 [melvster]
oshani: not that i know of
15:24:40 [pchampin]
slide 18
15:24:53 [melvster]
... raw violations 78% - 94%
15:25:00 [hhalpin]
oh, I'd also be interested in stats of use of ccRel in microformats vs rdfa in the wild
15:25:06 [hhalpin]
or just in HTML as a picture.
15:25:13 [melvster]
... if it's your image you own the copyright
15:25:18 [hhalpin]
My guess is image in HTML will predominate...
15:25:23 [melvster]
... if you're not using the licence, then you're setting a precident
15:25:33 [melvster]
... precision analysis
15:25:38 [melvster]
... low precision
15:25:46 [melvster]
... needed to remove
15:25:52 [melvster]
... non self attributed images
15:26:00 [melvster]
... found a higher rate
15:26:03 [melvster]
... not bad people
15:26:14 [melvster]
... lazy / dont know terms / dont know how to properly attribute people
15:26:21 [pchampin]
slide 21
15:26:33 [melvster]
15:27:03 [melvster]
hhalpin: did you look at only flickr? does it use microformats or rdfa?
15:27:13 [melvster]
oshani: they now use rdfa, but not during the experiment
15:27:18 [hhalpin]
great work helping them use RDFa.
15:27:47 [melvster]
hhalpin: interesting to see stats on how much machine readable format is out there
15:28:14 [pchampin]
slide 22
15:28:25 [melvster]
oshani: have several tools to enable policy awareness
15:28:30 [melvster]
... one is flickr cc validator
15:28:47 [melvster]
... idea is you can give any uri with flickr images
15:28:52 [melvster]
... can validate violations
15:29:08 [melvster]
... will show images that violate any licence, the owner, and how to correct
15:29:25 [MacTed]
Zakim, unmute me
15:29:25 [Zakim]
MacTed should no longer be muted
15:29:32 [melvster]
... limitations : can only validate images that have the flickr image uri
15:29:42 [melvster]
... it wont work with an alternate URI
15:30:03 [melvster]
... wont detect getty images etc. if they had been uploaded to flickr
15:30:38 [melvster]
MacTed: images that are hotlinked ... do you have anything that looks inside the image file, eg in the headers?
15:31:11 [melvster]
oshani: can look at meta data, but CC data isnt there unfortunately, just a key value pair that people can overwrite
15:32:16 [melvster]
MacTed: if someone is casually violating, do you detect that
15:32:31 [melvster]
oshani: there are tools that allow you to embed any key value pairs
15:33:20 [melvster]
oshani: better alternative, XMP where you can put RDF, I was proposing that to flickr
15:33:23 [hhalpin]
15:33:27 [melvster]
... not sure whether they'll change
15:33:39 [hhalpin]
for embedding it themselves, make it as easy as possible for enduser
15:34:02 [melvster]
... want them to support XMP
15:34:17 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
15:34:17 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
15:34:23 [melvster]
15:34:35 [melvster]
... you can try it out
15:34:42 [melvster]
... other type of tool is more general
15:34:46 [melvster]
... any type of content
15:34:54 [pchampin]
slide 27
15:34:57 [melvster]
... so long as they have a CC licence in right expression lang
15:35:11 [melvster]
... right now only impl. for images
15:35:14 [melvster]
... FF extension
15:35:24 [melvster]
... if you're browsing images, it will show you if you can copy an image
15:35:40 [melvster]
... if you want to find images that are used for commercial purposes
15:35:47 [melvster]
... you can use the tool to highlight those images
15:35:49 [pchampin]
slide 28
15:36:02 [melvster]
... right click on an image
15:36:27 [melvster]
... context menu will allow you to copy, copy with licence, will make you automatically licence compliant
15:36:50 [melvster]
... limitations we would want rdfa, most content doesnt have rdfa
15:37:00 [melvster]
... hopefully supported in subsequent versions
15:37:01 [pchampin]
slide 30
15:37:15 [melvster]
15:37:17 [melvster]
... try it out
15:37:20 [melvster]
... install tabulator
15:37:23 [melvster]
... then you can use it
15:37:24 [MacTed]
Zakim, unmute me
15:37:24 [Zakim]
MacTed should no longer be muted
15:37:37 [melvster]
MacTed: any chance it will be divorced from tabulator?
15:37:50 [melvster]
oshani: tabulator is in active development
15:37:57 [melvster]
... several unofficial uses
15:38:05 [melvster]
... it uses the tabulator rdf parser library
15:38:14 [melvster]
... so the code wont be replicated
15:38:33 [melvster]
MacTed: sandbox security settings are needed for tabulator
15:38:44 [melvster]
... if you dont do that tabulator doesnt work
15:38:55 [melvster]
oshani: i can do that
15:39:02 [melvster]
MacTed: i would encourage you to do so
15:39:08 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
15:39:08 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
15:39:19 [melvster]
oshani: policies on content reuse
15:39:24 [melvster]
... how to give proper credit
15:39:37 [melvster]
... people worry about things like privacy on soc nets
15:39:56 [melvster]
... two of my colleagues created a project called 'repsect my privacy'
15:40:07 [pchampin]
slide 32
15:40:07 [melvster]
... specify restrictions
15:40:26 [melvster]
... facebook has access control settings, but what happens if the data somehow gets out?
15:40:31 [pchampin]
slide 33
15:40:46 [melvster]
... private information can be copied and reposted
15:40:59 [melvster]
... inferences can be made ... 'gaydar'
15:41:21 [hhalpin]
this work is actually rather scary!
15:41:58 [melvster]
... analysed MIT network and selected 1500 males, and based on inference principles, they can infer sexual orientation
15:42:31 [melvster]
... policy changes can also occur
15:42:36 [melvster]
... no clear cut solution
15:42:40 [Zakim]
+ +049172247aabb
15:42:45 [melvster]
... information accountability
15:42:54 [melvster]
... specify under what conditions data can be reused
15:42:57 [melvster]
... similar to CC
15:42:59 [pchampin]
slide 34
15:43:15 [pchampin]
slide 35
15:43:15 [melvster]
... make people aware of usage restrictions
15:43:31 [melvster]
... supported across facebook, opensocial, tabulator
15:43:51 [melvster]
... ask the user to specify privacy preferences
15:44:00 [AnitaD]
AnitaD has joined #swxg
15:44:01 [melvster]
... displays data and highlights restrictions
15:44:08 [pchampin]
slide 36
15:44:09 [melvster]
... RMP restrictions
15:44:14 [melvster]
... no commercial
15:44:24 [melvster]
... no depiction ... please dont use my picture
15:44:30 [melvster]
... no employment
15:44:33 [melvster]
... no financial
15:44:53 [melvster]
... no medical dont use this information for any medical decisions
15:45:06 [melvster]
... eg insurance cos. / hospitals
15:45:12 [melvster]
... motivated by several complaints
15:45:22 [pchampin]
slide 37
15:45:27 [melvster]
15:45:34 [melvster]
... went further
15:45:40 [melvster]
... tried to use the semantic web
15:45:45 [melvster]
... facebook applications are limited
15:45:52 [melvster]
... just a label
15:46:09 [melvster]
... used FOAF converter by Matt Rowe
15:46:20 [melvster]
... uses RMP decisions
15:46:34 [melvster]
... not allowed to keep exported data off facebook for > 24 hours
15:46:42 [melvster]
... makes it restrictive
15:46:47 [hhalpin]
hmm how do they enforce that time restriction?
15:46:50 [melvster]
... also used on tabulator
15:46:58 [melvster]
... uses application panes
15:47:06 [melvster]
... supprots edit in place (SPARUL)
15:47:13 [melvster]
... data pane
15:47:16 [melvster]
... social pane
15:47:28 [melvster]
... get yourself a webid
15:47:31 [melvster]
... using webDAV
15:47:37 [melvster]
... browse FOAF profiles
15:47:49 [pchampin]
slide 42
15:47:49 [melvster]
... extended foaf pane
15:47:53 [melvster]
... includes RMP
15:48:05 [melvster]
... include privacy restrictions
15:48:14 [melvster]
... if your FOAF has SPARUL it will persist
15:48:34 [melvster]
... can add licences to FOAF
15:49:00 [melvster]
... example slide 43
15:49:07 [melvster]
... can intermix CC and RMP
15:49:19 [melvster]
... that's about it for RMP ... questions?
15:49:32 [hhalpin]
like the mixing, thats RDF
15:49:49 [melvster]
hhalpin: how does facebook legally enforce the 24h export data rule
15:49:55 [melvster]
oshani: it's the privacy policy
15:50:03 [melvster]
... dont know how they enforce it
15:50:22 [hhalpin]
any other questions?
15:50:31 [melvster]
i can download that extension from the link above, yes?
15:50:36 [pchampin]
zakim, unmute me
15:50:36 [Zakim]
pchampin should no longer be muted
15:51:00 [Zakim]
- +34.91.639.aaaa
15:51:01 [melvster]
pchampin: what does the fb app. do? does it change privacy setting to be confomant with rmp?
15:51:14 [melvster]
oshani: no, we cant touch those, we can display a badge
15:51:44 [melvster]
... before you install the app, it gives the philosophy behind RMP, more a notice, encouraging people to be honest
15:51:53 [pchampin]
zakim, mute me
15:51:53 [Zakim]
pchampin should now be muted
15:52:19 [hhalpin]
15:53:35 [melvster]
hhalpin: we want distributed policy in access control languages, only a few uses, what are your thougths on CC and the other work being done, can we make it more general
15:53:35 [hhalpin]
but it could be part of an access control langauge
15:53:48 [melvster]
oshani: CC is data uses rather than access control
15:54:57 [melvster]
hhalpin: some use cases eg dump your penfriend, are content reuse, some issues solved by tagging, can people be notified
15:55:24 [hhalpin]
yes that's correct
15:55:27 [melvster]
oshani: that used CC attribution licences, and vigin mobile properly attributed the person that uploaded that image, so they were licence compliant
15:55:31 [hhalpin]
Virgin was license compliant!
15:55:33 [melvster]
... settled out of court
15:55:40 [hhalpin]
15:55:44 [hhalpin]
nothing to Flickr?
15:55:51 [melvster]
( my connection will die in about 2 minutes )
15:56:17 [melvster]
... if someone comes and reuses your image, they can do certain things
15:56:32 [melvster]
... cc is not that explicit, people need to be more policy and licence aware
15:56:38 [melvster]
... there should be tools that let you do that
15:56:53 [rreck]
thanks for presenting
15:57:03 [hhalpin]
15:57:21 [hhalpin]
ccRel well-known
15:57:25 [Zakim]
15:57:29 [hhalpin]
seems to being used correctly?
15:57:39 [hhalpin]
RMP introduced some new terms that might not have consensus
15:57:50 [hhalpin]
so maybe W3C could look in that direction.
15:58:47 [melvster1]
melvster1 has joined #swxg
15:59:09 [hhalpin]
Meeting Adjourned
15:59:13 [pchampin]
bye bye
15:59:13 [rreck]
15:59:14 [melvster1]
hi sorry about that
15:59:15 [Zakim]
15:59:15 [hhalpin]
RRSAgent, create minutes
15:59:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate hhalpin
15:59:24 [hhalpin]
no problem melvster I got the final minutes
15:59:26 [pchampin]
pchampin has left #swxg
15:59:27 [Zakim]
15:59:29 [melvster1]
great! :)
15:59:33 [hhalpin]
trackbot, end meeting
15:59:33 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
15:59:33 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been pchampin, MacTed, melvster, yoshiaki, +34.91.639.aaaa, oshani, rreck, +049172247aabb
15:59:34 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:59:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
15:59:34 [yoshiaki]
15:59:35 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
15:59:35 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in :
15:59:35 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: hhalpin to send personal reminders that final report actions should be done before next meeting [1]
15:59:35 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:59:35 [Zakim]
- +049172247aabb