15:05:01 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #swxg
15:05:01 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/04/14-swxg-irc
15:05:03 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:05:03 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #swxg
15:05:05 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7994
15:05:05 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see INC_SWXG()11:00AM scheduled to start 5 minutes ago
15:05:06 <trackbot> Meeting: Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference
15:05:06 <trackbot> Date: 14 April 2010
15:05:08 <pchampin> zakim, mute me
15:05:08 <Zakim> sorry, pchampin, I don't know what conference this is
15:05:16 <MacTed> Zakim, this is 7994
15:05:16 <Zakim> ok, MacTed; that matches INC_SWXG()11:00AM
15:05:21 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
15:05:21 <Zakim> On the phone I see pchampin, MIT-G451, OpenLink_Software, [IPcaller]
15:05:23 <pchampin> zakim, mute me
15:05:23 <Zakim> pchampin should now be muted
15:05:33 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:05:33 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:05:39 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:05:39 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:06:15 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
15:06:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see pchampin (muted), MIT-G451, MacTed (muted), [IPcaller]
15:06:18 <Zakim> +??P12
15:06:21 <MacTed> Zakim, who's on irc?
15:06:21 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, MacTed.
15:06:22 <hhalpin> topic: Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2010-04-15T15:00-16:00GMT
15:06:33 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
15:06:37 <hhalpin> chair: hhalpin
15:06:38 <melvster> Zakim, ??P12 is me
15:06:38 <Zakim> +melvster; got it
15:06:43 <melvster> i can scribe
15:06:45 <MacTed> something's weird with Zakim again...
15:06:58 <yoshiaki> zakim, IPcaller is me
15:06:58 <Zakim> +yoshiaki; got it
15:07:00 <hhalpin> scribe: melvster
15:07:10 <hhalpin> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:07:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/14-swxg-minutes.html hhalpin
15:07:31 <melvster> tho my IP will reset in about 55 minutes
15:07:56 <tinkster> tinkster has joined #swxg
15:08:14 <Zakim> + +34.91.639.aaaa
15:08:18 <hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-swxg-minutes.html
15:08:23 <hhalpin> approve?
15:08:34 <hhalpin> APPROVED: Minutes from 4-07 approved.
15:08:43 <MacTed> for attendance ... IRC (currently) shows : yoshiaki pchampin hhalpin oshani MacTed melvster AlexPassant tinkster
15:08:45 <rreck> rreck has joined #SWXG
15:09:02 <melvster> hhalpin: looking at policy languages
15:09:11 <hhalpin> XACML
15:09:17 <melvster> ... next week larger overview, outside of sem web, inc. XACML
15:09:24 <hhalpin> APPORVED: meet next week 4-22
15:09:31 <melvster> +1
15:09:40 <hhalpin> topic: Action Reminders
15:10:03 <Zakim> +rreck
15:10:16 <rreck> zakim, mute me
15:10:16 <Zakim> rreck should now be muted
15:10:18 <MacTed> s/APPORVED/APPROVED/
15:10:26 <rreck> wonder how zakim knew me
15:10:48 <rreck> they must have gotten the email
15:10:51 <melvster> ... everyone that has an open action isnt on the phone
15:11:00 <melvster> ... will send people personal reminders
15:11:43 <hhalpin> ACTION: hhalpin to send personal reminders that final report actions should be done before next meeting
15:11:44 <trackbot> Created ACTION-137 - Send personal reminders that final report actions should be done before next meeting [on Harry Halpin - due 2010-04-21].
15:11:57 <melvster> ... let's go over to oshani
15:12:03 <melvster> ... from MIT DIG
15:12:05 <oshani> Slides of my talk: http://people.csail.mit.edu/oshani/talks/swxg.pdf
15:12:07 <hhalpin> topic: Oshani of MIT/DIG on her work on policy-aware content re-use
15:12:41 <melvster> ... use case where someones picture was taken from flickr
15:12:45 <melvster> ... advertising campagn
15:12:54 <melvster> ... but it was legal acc. to the rules, to use it
15:12:59 <melvster> ... pen friend
15:13:10 <hhalpin> http://www.parentdish.com/tag/dump%20your%20pen%20friend/
15:13:12 <melvster> oshani:  slides on irc
15:13:31 <melvster> ... im a phd student at DIG MIT
15:13:38 <melvster> ... focuses mainly on policies for the web
15:13:47 <melvster> ... how it relates to sem web
15:14:03 <melvster> ... first a small example, of why it's important to make people policy aware
15:14:13 <melvster> ... discuss a few tools we've developed in our group
15:14:22 <melvster> ... talk about 'respect my privcay'
15:14:46 <melvster> ... lots of content on the web 3.6bn on flickr, 1 trillion web pages
15:15:16 <melvster> ... people put their content on the web, and expect people to properly attribute
15:15:30 <melvster> ... cc licences is the de facto licence
15:15:52 <melvster> ... meant to be a rights expression, rather enforcement, expressed in human/machine readable format
15:16:08 <hhalpin> Creative Commons I think was one of the main use cases for the creation of RDFa (i.e. RDF markup inside HTML)
15:16:09 <melvster> ... human readable, icons, text for lawyers
15:16:17 <melvster> ... machine readable too
15:16:28 <melvster> ... 100m flikr images CC licenced
15:16:33 <pchampin> slide 6
15:16:45 <melvster> ... cc licences support different uses
15:16:53 <melvster> ... Share Alike most common
15:16:56 <melvster> ... non commercial use
15:17:11 <melvster> ... no derivatives, means you must use as is
15:17:15 <melvster> ... people can mix content
15:17:18 <pchampin> slide 7
15:17:27 <melvster> ... most search engines support CC, yahoo google
15:17:35 <pchampin> slide 8
15:17:47 <melvster> ... most content sites support CC
15:18:02 <melvster> ... you can generate your own CC licences
15:18:09 <melvster> ... from creativecommons.org
15:18:22 <melvster> ... you can generate from a wizard
15:18:31 <melvster> cc:AttributionName
15:18:37 <melvster> ... cc:AttributionURL
15:18:42 <pchampin> slide 10
15:18:46 <melvster> ... cc:morePermissions
15:18:53 <melvster> ... using RDF to describe licences
15:19:02 <melvster> ... licence has a UIR
15:19:08 <melvster> s/UIR/URI
15:19:12 <pchampin> slide 11
15:19:20 <rreck> you could color code the edges
15:19:22 <melvster> ... human readable format is easy to read
15:19:30 <melvster> ... also uses RDFa
15:19:39 <melvster> ... will show you the permissions
15:20:17 <melvster> ... eg free to share / remix and the permissions beyond are availailble at <URI> attribution, and can properly attribute the person
15:20:18 <pchampin> slide 13
15:20:34 <melvster> ... wanted to see if people are actually aware of these things
15:20:54 <melvster> ... 78% - 94% are not aware of CC
15:21:02 <melvster> ... we used flickr images
15:21:18 <melvster> ... CC did a survey saying images are the most commonly used content
15:21:27 <melvster> ... flickr has the largest collection of CC images
15:21:35 <melvster> ... nice URI
15:21:40 <melvster> ... to extract photo information
15:21:57 <melvster> ... used technorati to generate samples
15:22:07 <melvster> ... randomized selection of flikr image URIs
15:22:32 <melvster> ... authority rank, varies over time, and we collected 3 samples
15:22:37 <pchampin> slide 17
15:22:50 <melvster> ... used CC attribution
15:23:01 <melvster> ... one of the well defined CC licences out there
15:23:11 <melvster> ... use username
15:23:21 <melvster> ... use URL
15:23:32 <melvster> ... close to wherever that content is used
15:23:57 <melvster> ... flickr username or full name of user, URL was flickr user url
15:24:00 <melvster> ... either  /or
15:24:12 <melvster> ... questions?
15:24:26 <melvster> hhalpin: was my intution, but this is the first statistics
15:24:32 <melvster> ... is there any related work?
15:24:36 <melvster> oshani: not that i know of
15:24:40 <pchampin> slide 18
15:24:53 <melvster> ... raw violations 78% - 94%
15:25:00 <hhalpin> oh, I'd also be interested in stats of use of ccRel in microformats vs rdfa in the wild
15:25:06 <hhalpin> or just in HTML as a picture.
15:25:13 <melvster> ... if it's your image you own the copyright
15:25:18 <hhalpin> My guess is image in HTML will predominate...
15:25:23 <melvster> ... if you're not using the licence, then you're setting a precident
15:25:33 <melvster> ... precision analysis
15:25:38 <melvster> ... low precision
15:25:46 <melvster> ... needed to remove
15:25:52 <melvster> ... non self attributed images
15:26:00 <melvster> ... found a higher rate
15:26:03 <melvster> ... not bad people
15:26:14 <melvster> ... lazy / dont know terms / dont know how to properly attribute people
15:26:21 <pchampin> slide 21
15:26:33 <melvster> http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2008/WSRI-Exchange/results
15:27:03 <melvster> hhalpin: did you look at only flickr?  does it use microformats or rdfa?
15:27:13 <melvster> oshani: they now use rdfa, but not during the experiment
15:27:18 <hhalpin> great work helping them use RDFa.
15:27:47 <melvster> hhalpin: interesting to see stats on how much machine readable format is out there
15:28:14 <pchampin> slide 22
15:28:25 <melvster> oshani: have several tools to enable policy awareness
15:28:30 <melvster> ... one is flickr cc validator
15:28:47 <melvster> ... idea is you can give any uri with flickr images
15:28:52 <melvster> ... can validate violations
15:29:08 <melvster> ... will show images that violate any licence, the owner, and how to correct
15:29:25 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
15:29:25 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
15:29:32 <melvster> ... limitations : can only validate images that have the flickr image uri
15:29:42 <melvster> ... it wont work with an alternate URI
15:30:03 <melvster> ... wont detect getty images etc. if they had been uploaded to flickr
15:30:38 <melvster> MacTed: images that are hotlinked ... do you have anything that looks inside the image file, eg in the headers?
15:31:11 <melvster> oshani: can look at meta data, but CC data isnt there unfortunately, just a key value pair that people can overwrite
15:32:16 <melvster> MacTed: if someone is casually violating, do you detect that
15:32:31 <melvster> oshani: there are tools that allow you to embed any key value pairs
15:33:20 <melvster> oshani: better alternative, XMP where you can put RDF, I was proposing that to flickr
15:33:23 <hhalpin> +1
15:33:27 <melvster> ... not sure whether they'll change
15:33:39 <hhalpin> for embedding it themselves, make it as easy as possible for enduser
15:34:02 <melvster> ... want them to support XMP
15:34:17 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:34:17 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:34:23 <melvster> http://dig.csail.mit.edu/FlickrCC/validator.cgi
15:34:35 <melvster> ... you can try it out
15:34:42 <melvster> ... other type of tool is more general
15:34:46 <melvster> ... any type of content
15:34:54 <pchampin> slide 27
15:34:57 <melvster> ... so long as they have a CC licence in right expression lang
15:35:11 <melvster> ... right now only impl. for images
15:35:14 <melvster> ... FF extension
15:35:24 <melvster> ... if you're browsing images, it will show you if you can copy an image
15:35:40 <melvster> ... if you want to find images that are used for commercial purposes
15:35:47 <melvster> ... you can use the tool to highlight those images
15:35:49 <pchampin> slide 28
15:36:02 <melvster> ... right click on an image
15:36:27 <melvster> ... context menu will allow you to copy, copy with licence, will make you automatically licence compliant
15:36:50 <melvster> ... limitations we would want rdfa, most content doesnt have rdfa
15:37:00 <melvster> ... hopefully supported in subsequent versions
15:37:01 <pchampin> slide 30
15:37:15 <melvster> http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2007/tab/release/unofficial/tabulator-latest.xpi
15:37:17 <melvster> ... try it out
15:37:20 <melvster> ... install tabulator
15:37:23 <melvster> ... then you can use it
15:37:24 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
15:37:24 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
15:37:37 <melvster> MacTed: any chance it will be divorced from tabulator?
15:37:50 <melvster> oshani: tabulator is in active development
15:37:57 <melvster> ... several unofficial uses
15:38:05 <melvster> ... it uses the tabulator rdf parser library
15:38:14 <melvster> ... so the code wont be replicated
15:38:33 <melvster> MacTed:  sandbox security settings are needed for tabulator
15:38:44 <melvster> ... if you dont do that tabulator doesnt work
15:38:55 <melvster> oshani: i can do that
15:39:02 <melvster> MacTed: i would encourage you to do so
15:39:08 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:39:08 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:39:19 <melvster> oshani: policies on content reuse
15:39:24 <melvster> ... how to give proper credit
15:39:37 <melvster> ... people worry about things like privacy on soc nets
15:39:56 <melvster> ... two of my colleagues created a project called 'repsect my privacy'
15:40:07 <pchampin> slide 32
15:40:07 <melvster> ... specify restrictions
15:40:26 <melvster> ... facebook has access control settings, but what happens if the data somehow gets out?
15:40:31 <pchampin> slide 33
15:40:46 <melvster> ... private information can be copied and reposted
15:40:59 <melvster> ... inferences can be made ... 'gaydar'
15:41:21 <hhalpin> this work is actually rather scary!
15:41:58 <melvster> ... analysed MIT network and selected 1500 males, and based on inference principles, they can infer sexual orientation
15:42:31 <melvster> ... policy changes can also occur
15:42:36 <melvster> ... no clear cut solution
15:42:40 <Zakim> + +049172247aabb
15:42:45 <melvster> ... information accountability
15:42:54 <melvster> ... specify under what conditions data can be reused
15:42:57 <melvster> ... similar to CC
15:42:59 <pchampin> slide 34
15:43:15 <pchampin> slide 35
15:43:15 <melvster> ... make people aware of usage restrictions
15:43:31 <melvster> ... supported across facebook, opensocial, tabulator
15:43:51 <melvster> ... ask the user to specify privacy preferences
15:44:00 <AnitaD> AnitaD has joined #swxg
15:44:01 <melvster> ... displays data and highlights restrictions
15:44:08 <pchampin> slide 36
15:44:09 <melvster> ... RMP restrictions
15:44:14 <melvster> ... no commercial
15:44:24 <melvster> ... no depiction ... please dont use my picture
15:44:30 <melvster> ... no employment
15:44:33 <melvster> ... no financial
15:44:53 <melvster> ... no medical dont use this information for any medical decisions
15:45:06 <melvster> ... eg insurance cos. / hospitals
15:45:12 <melvster> ... motivated by several complaints
15:45:22 <pchampin> slide 37
15:45:27 <melvster>   http://apps.facebook.com/respectmyprivacy/
15:45:34 <melvster> ... went further
15:45:40 <melvster> ... tried to use the semantic web
15:45:45 <melvster> ... facebook applications are limited
15:45:52 <melvster> ... just a label
15:46:09 <melvster> ... used FOAF converter by Matt Rowe
15:46:20 <melvster> ... uses RMP decisions
15:46:34 <melvster> ... not allowed to keep exported data off facebook for > 24 hours
15:46:42 <melvster> ... makes it restrictive
15:46:47 <hhalpin> hmm how do they enforce that time restriction?
15:46:50 <melvster> ... also used on tabulator
15:46:58 <melvster> ... uses application panes
15:47:06 <melvster> ... supprots edit in place (SPARUL)
15:47:13 <melvster> ... data pane
15:47:16 <melvster> ... social pane
15:47:28 <melvster> ... get yourself a webid
15:47:31 <melvster> ... using webDAV
15:47:37 <melvster> ... browse FOAF profiles
15:47:49 <pchampin> slide 42
15:47:49 <melvster> ... extended foaf pane
15:47:53 <melvster> ... includes RMP
15:48:05 <melvster> ... include privacy restrictions
15:48:14 <melvster> ... if your FOAF has SPARUL it will persist
15:48:34 <melvster> ... can add licences to FOAF
15:49:00 <melvster> ... example slide 43
15:49:07 <melvster> ... can intermix CC and RMP
15:49:19 <melvster> ... that's about it for RMP ... questions?
15:49:32 <hhalpin> like the mixing, thats RDF
15:49:49 <melvster> hhalpin: how does facebook legally enforce the 24h export data rule 
15:49:55 <melvster> oshani: it's the privacy policy
15:50:03 <melvster> ... dont know how they enforce it
15:50:22 <hhalpin> any other questions?
15:50:31 <melvster> i can download that extension from the link above, yes?
15:50:36 <pchampin> zakim, unmute me
15:50:36 <Zakim> pchampin should no longer be muted
15:51:00 <Zakim> - +34.91.639.aaaa
15:51:01 <melvster> pchampin: what does the fb app. do?  does it change privacy setting to be confomant with rmp?
15:51:14 <melvster> oshani: no, we cant touch those, we can display a badge
15:51:44 <melvster> ... before you install the app, it gives the philosophy behind RMP, more a notice, encouraging people to be honest
15:51:53 <pchampin> zakim, mute me
15:51:53 <Zakim> pchampin should now be muted
15:52:19 <hhalpin> questions?
15:53:35 <melvster> hhalpin: we want distributed policy in access control languages, only a few uses, what are your thougths on CC and the other work being done, can we make it more general
15:53:35 <hhalpin> but it could be part of an access control langauge
15:53:48 <melvster> oshani: CC is data uses rather than access control
15:54:57 <melvster> hhalpin: some use cases eg dump your penfriend, are content reuse, some issues solved by tagging, can people be notified
15:55:24 <hhalpin> yes that's correct
15:55:27 <melvster> oshani: that used CC attribution licences, and vigin mobile properly attributed the person that uploaded that image, so they were licence compliant
15:55:31 <hhalpin> Virgin was license compliant!
15:55:33 <melvster> ... settled out of court
15:55:40 <hhalpin> weird
15:55:44 <hhalpin> nothing to Flickr?
15:55:51 <melvster> ( my connection will die in about 2 minutes )
15:56:17 <melvster> ... if someone comes and reuses your image, they can do certain things
15:56:32 <melvster> ... cc is not that explicit, people need to be more policy and licence aware
15:56:38 <melvster> ... there should be tools that let you do that
15:56:53 <rreck> thanks for presenting
15:57:03 <hhalpin> standardization?
15:57:21 <hhalpin> ccRel well-known
15:57:25 <Zakim> -melvster
15:57:29 <hhalpin> seems to being used correctly?
15:57:39 <hhalpin> RMP introduced some new terms that might not have consensus
15:57:50 <hhalpin> so maybe W3C could look in that direction.
15:58:47 <melvster1> melvster1 has joined #swxg
15:59:09 <hhalpin> Meeting Adjourned
15:59:13 <pchampin> bye bye
15:59:13 <rreck> bubye
15:59:14 <melvster1> hi sorry about that
15:59:15 <Zakim> -MacTed
15:59:15 <hhalpin> RRSAgent, create minutes
15:59:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/14-swxg-minutes.html hhalpin
15:59:24 <hhalpin> no problem melvster I got the final minutes
15:59:26 <pchampin> pchampin has left #swxg
15:59:27 <Zakim> -pchampin
15:59:29 <melvster1> great! :)
15:59:33 <hhalpin> trackbot, end meeting
15:59:33 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:59:33 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been pchampin, MacTed, melvster, yoshiaki, +34.91.639.aaaa, oshani, rreck, +049172247aabb
15:59:34 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:59:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/14-swxg-minutes.html trackbot
15:59:34 <yoshiaki> bye
15:59:35 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:59:35 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/14-swxg-actions.rdf :
15:59:35 <RRSAgent> ACTION: hhalpin to send personal reminders that final report actions should be done before next meeting [1]
15:59:35 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/14-swxg-irc#T15-11-43
15:59:35 <Zakim> - +049172247aabb