15:35:43 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #CSS
15:35:43 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/04/14-CSS-irc
15:35:51 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #CSS
15:35:57 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
15:35:57 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 25 minutes
15:36:03 <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:54:47 <murakami> murakami has joined #css
15:55:55 <murakami> hello
15:57:30 <glazou> hi murakami 
15:57:43 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:57:46 <glazou> Zakim, code ?
15:57:46 <Zakim> the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), glazou
15:57:50 <Zakim> +dsinger
15:58:16 <dsinger_> dsinger_ has joined #css
15:58:24 <glazou> bridge refusing to log in again
15:58:29 <Zakim> + +81.48.883.aaaa
15:58:31 <dsinger_> zakim, mute dsinger_
15:58:31 <Zakim> sorry, dsinger_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to dsinger_
15:58:45 <dsinger_> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:58:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger, +81.48.883.aaaa
15:59:03 <Zakim> +glazou
16:00:06 <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is murakami 
16:00:06 <Zakim> +murakami; got it
16:00:12 <Zakim> +TabAtkins
16:00:13 <dethbakin> dethbakin has joined #css
16:00:38 <arronei> I'm only on IRC today
16:00:43 <Zakim> +plinss
16:01:12 <Zakim> +[Apple]
16:01:28 <glazou> we have regrets from bradk, molly, jdaggett, clilley, dbaron, Bert
16:01:37 <dethbakin> that [Apple] is me
16:01:52 <glazou> Zakim, [Apple] has dethbakin 
16:01:52 <Zakim> +dethbakin; got it
16:02:19 <dsinger_> zakim, who is here?
16:02:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger (muted), murakami, glazou, TabAtkins, plinss, [Apple]
16:02:25 <Zakim> [Apple] has dethbakin
16:02:25 <tabatkin1> tabatkin1 has joined #css
16:02:27 <Zakim> On IRC I see dethbakin, dsinger_, murakami, Zakim, RRSAgent, glazou, miketaylr, myakura, Lachy, arronei, paul_irish, TabAtkins, shepazu, krijn, fantasai, jgraham, Hixie, plinss_,
16:02:32 <Zakim> ... plinss, Bert, trackbot
16:03:08 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:03:22 <Zakim> +smfr
16:03:32 <glazou> Zakim, [IPcaller] has howcome
16:03:34 <Zakim> +howcome; got it
16:04:14 <szilles> szilles has joined #css
16:04:16 <smfr> smfr has joined #css
16:04:59 <smfr> Zakim: who's here?
16:05:21 <oyvind> oyvind has joined #css
16:06:03 <TabAtkins> ScribeNick: TabAtkins
16:06:09 <dsinger> zakim, who is here?
16:06:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger (muted), murakami, glazou, TabAtkins, plinss, [Apple], [IPcaller], smfr
16:06:11 <Zakim> [Apple] has dethbakin
16:06:12 <Zakim> On IRC I see oyvind, smfr, szilles, tabatkin1, dethbakin, dsinger, murakami, Zakim, RRSAgent, glazou, miketaylr, myakura, Lachy, arronei, paul_irish, TabAtkins, shepazu, krijn,
16:06:15 <Zakim> [IPcaller] has howcome
16:06:16 <TabAtkins> glazou: Any extra agenda items?
16:06:17 <Zakim> ... fantasai, jgraham, Hixie, plinss_, plinss, Bert, trackbot
16:06:26 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:06:49 <sylvaing> sylvaing has joined #css
16:06:53 <TabAtkins> glazou: First item on agenda is CSS2.1, status and next steps.
16:06:57 <Zakim> +SteveZ
16:07:24 <fantasai> No progress the last 2 weeks
16:07:32 <fantasai> unless it was by someone other than me
16:07:35 <TabAtkins> glazou: peter, you had an action item at the ftf?
16:07:43 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Mar/0551.html
16:08:01 <fantasai> Everyone had an action item to review that proposal, if they have, we should close on it if possible
16:08:08 <TabAtkins> glazou: For me, make namespaces implementation reports.  I sent that to the list.
16:08:46 <TabAtkins> glazou: Discovered we dont' have the same exit criteria as CSS2.1.  I think we need two implementations that pass the whole thing, not two impls per feature.
16:08:53 <TabAtkins> glazou: So right now we dont' meet the exit criteria.
16:09:11 <TabAtkins> glazou: For fantasai, put border-clip into CSS4 backgrounds.
16:09:21 <fantasai> done
16:09:22 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I believe she's done that; I saw it in the CVS.
16:09:30 <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css4-background/
16:09:40 <TabAtkins> glazou: Hakon, produce an alternate proposal for mixing animations and transitions.
16:10:11 <TabAtkins> howcome: I think there are multiple proposals on the table.  I'd like to see some feedback from Apple concerning the use-cases that it can't currently do.
16:10:27 <TabAtkins> smfr: We're thinking of addressing the case of running an animation when you exit a state, such as :hover.
16:10:57 <TabAtkins> smfr: Had a few proposals of that kicked around internally.  One was keying it to a transition, another was doing it when it was run.
16:11:27 <TabAtkins> smfr: The problem with either of those was that the animation running isn't tied to any current style, so it's hard to cancel, which I think is important for accessibility.
16:11:33 <TabAtkins> smfr: I don't think there's a magic bullet.
16:11:50 <TabAtkins> smfr: I'd like to see your table given a column where the things are written out longhand.
16:11:59 <TabAtkins> smfr: I think using the shorthand hides some of the complexity.
16:12:10 <TabAtkins> smfr: I'd also like to see an example of an exit-animation that then needs to be killed.
16:12:53 <TabAtkins> plinss_: What is the problem with animations attached to transitions?  they should run forever, right?
16:13:14 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: me and Brad were discussing transition-animations that were limited by the transition duration.
16:13:33 <TabAtkins> smfr: Sure, but you might not run the animation a whole number of times.
16:15:13 <TabAtkins> [talk about whether on-exits are something like an event model]
16:15:31 <TabAtkins> howcome: I also think Andrew's proposal is somewhat interesting, but he hasnt' written it up yet.
16:16:08 <Zakim> +[Apple.a]
16:16:08 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #css
16:16:14 <TabAtkins> howcome: I think we could use some more explicit use-cases that express important cases and show the differences in various proposals.
16:16:20 <Zakim> -dsinger
16:16:31 <dsinger> zakim, [apple] has dsinger
16:16:31 <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
16:16:37 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I proposed to do so privately, and have a number of cases that I think would be useful to bring up explicitly.  I'd take an action on it.
16:17:19 <TabAtkins> howcome: I agree that writing out the longhand would be useful too.  Andrew doesn't think that the longhand should exist at all, maybe.
16:17:25 <TabAtkins> smfr: Have you thought about moving your page to a wiki?
16:17:42 <TabAtkins> howcome: Maybe, but I don't want it to go totally overboard.  I'd just want an editor to "control" it.
16:17:52 <TabAtkins> howcome: Or would CVS be okay?
16:17:56 <TabAtkins> smfr: That's fine with me.
16:18:26 <TabAtkins> howcome: I'm happier with CVS, and it lets me edit plain HTML too.
16:18:32 <TabAtkins> smfr: It can go in the Transitions folder.
16:18:43 <TabAtkins> howcome: And I'd be happy for people to add cases directly to it as well.
16:19:19 <TabAtkins> ACTION howcome: put transition/animation proposal document on the CVS server
16:19:19 <trackbot> Created ACTION-223 - Put transition/animation proposal document on the CVS server [on Håkon Wium Lie - due 2010-04-21].
16:19:45 <TabAtkins> glazou: Question for Simon.  Do transitions and animations apply to generated content?
16:19:51 <TabAtkins> smfr: I think they should.
16:20:08 <TabAtkins> smfr: I think we decided not for certain things like ::first-letter.
16:20:18 <TabAtkins> glazou: I was thinking of for ::marker and ::before and such.
16:20:26 <TabAtkins> smfr: Yes, but we don't do it quite yet.
16:21:00 <TabAtkins> glazou: I'm trying to reproduce the Mac OSX disclosure element where the little triangle rotates when you fold/unfold the element.
16:21:10 <TabAtkins> glazou: Or if you have a tree structure.
16:22:22 <TabAtkins> howcome: Can you attach transitions to the content property?
16:22:47 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: I think it would fall under the category of "non-transitionable elements" and would just go all at once at the beginning or end of the duration.
16:23:32 <TabAtkins> glazou: Next two agenda items are about fonts, one related to szilles' action about character-transform.
16:24:12 <TabAtkins> glazou: Tabatkins, rewrite issue 161.
16:24:20 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: Haven't done it yet, will have it done by end of day.
16:24:31 <glazou> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom/#serializing-selectors
16:24:35 <TabAtkins> glazou: Anne, serialization of cssText and selectorText in CSSOM
16:25:11 <TabAtkins> The goal is to preserve the ability to parse cssText and selectorText, so it is still valid.
16:25:33 <TabAtkins> glazou: I'd like to action everyone to review it by next week.
16:25:59 <TabAtkins> glazou: Speaking of OM, we have a request from Arthur Barstow to handle VM spec in CSS, because it belongs in the OM.
16:26:21 <TabAtkins> glazou: Following a chat with Peter, we're happy to handle it in the CSS group, as long as we have someone handling it.
16:26:36 <smfr> have to drop off, sorry
16:26:42 <TabAtkins> glazou: Right now only Anne is working on OM, and he probably can't handle all the requests coming in about different things.
16:26:50 <TabAtkins> glazou: Next is calc(), but dbaron isn't here.
16:26:52 <Zakim> -smfr
16:27:07 <TabAtkins> glazou: Last item, writing-mode issues.  I think Murakami-san is on the call?
16:27:15 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Apr/0278.html
16:28:17 <TabAtkins> murakami: In Japan, ePub layout is very important.  Japanese epub group published a minimal set of requirements for japanese text layout.
16:28:40 <TabAtkins> murakami: The problem is the writing-mode property in CSS.
16:29:04 <TabAtkins> murakami: Whenever writing-mode is changed, margin-top, frex, isn't the right layout.  It should match the writing mode.
16:30:11 <TabAtkins> murakami: When writing-mode is vertical, frex, margin-top becomes treated as margin-right.
16:30:18 <TabAtkins> murakami: This does not conform with the CSS standard.
16:31:02 <TabAtkins> murakami: I request in my post three features to resolve this issue of physical vs logical properties.
16:31:17 <TabAtkins> murakami: In my proposal, media queries can be used to describe the UA support for writing-mode or not.
16:31:31 <Zakim> +fantasai
16:31:38 <TabAtkins> glazou: When you say media query, you mean a CSS media query?  I see that you are also proposing a pseudoclass.
16:32:37 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: murakami originally proposed using media queries, but I had a discussion with him where I said that we weren't comfortable with that, so he changed to a pseudoclass.
16:33:06 <TabAtkins> fantasai: What we need is margin-start/end/etc, because margin-top being -right is totally weird.  We were very happy to adopt *-start last time we discussed it.
16:33:30 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: the CSSWG hasnt' done it yet, though, and we have people coming up with their own solutions here.
16:33:31 <smfr> smfr has left #css
16:33:40 <fantasai> s/We were very happy ... //;
16:33:48 <fantasai> We decided last time that absolute directions must remain absolute
16:34:01 <fantasai> And that we should introduce margin-start/end/etc for relative directions
16:34:26 <TabAtkins> szilles: I'm unaware of any document ever published that said that top/left/etc *weren't* absolute.
16:35:00 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: In [some implementation] you can lay out your text in the "western way", and then change the writing mode and everything "rotates".
16:35:29 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: This will be the natural expectation of the right way to do it.  If it's the wrong way, we have to get on top of this *very soon*, because ePub isn't going to get smaller any time soon.
16:35:51 <Zakim> +SteveZ.a
16:36:01 <Zakim> -SteveZ
16:36:09 <TabAtkins> fantasai: We can write a draft that introduces *-start, etc.  We just need to resolve the cascading issues.  There have been two proposals for resolving that for *years*, but there's never been interest in resolving that.
16:36:45 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: I think the basic problem is that the impls on the WG so far just didn't really worry about that medium.  Now we have a new group of impls that have different needs, and they're not in the wG.
16:37:03 <TabAtkins> glazou: We didn't have a strong use-case before, and now we do have a strong use-case.
16:37:23 <TabAtkins> howcome: But you don't need any new functionality to do this right now.
16:37:54 <TabAtkins> fantasai: The problem is that if you write a page that uses vertical text, and then load it in an impl that doesn't have support for writing-mode, your layout will break horribly.
16:38:21 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Using a media query just makes you write two nearly identical stylesheets.  Better is to have relative properties that will apply properly.
16:38:58 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Now, sometimes the layouts will be slightly different based on writing-mode, so it is useful to have some mechanism for a "dependency check" on writing-mode.
16:39:08 <TabAtkins> fantasai: But the issues that aren't addressed by relative directions are relatively minor.
16:39:19 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Like line-height might be a little different ideally, but it's still readable.
16:39:37 <TabAtkins> howcome: We're talking ePub, though, not all browsers.  We don't really need to think about backwards compat.
16:40:04 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: That's not the issue.  If you're an ePub vendor trying to fix this problem, you might do it the way you're familiar with, which is the way IE does it (rotates directions).
16:40:14 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: If there's a better way to do it, it needs to be communicated soon.
16:40:52 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: It's not an issue of actually running IE6 on the ereaders, but rather just copying what the dominant impl in Japan does.
16:41:04 <Zakim> -fantasai
16:41:46 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
16:42:44 <TabAtkins> howcome: The number of Japanese web authors writing websites is relatively small, and I don't think they're asking for these features.
16:42:51 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: Murakami-san is asking for it.
16:43:24 <fantasai> I think the point is that ePub readers and printing software such as antenna house need this functionality
16:43:26 <TabAtkins> glazou: When we had the AC meeting in Tokyo, I was approached by people in Japanese newspapers asking for this.  that was 4 years ago.
16:43:33 <TabAtkins> glazou: That was not for paper, it was for websites.
16:43:57 <TabAtkins> howcome: I'm sure you can find it some places, but I think more people would be happier without it than with it.
16:44:23 <fantasai> I would like to solve the problem, I don't think how IE does it is the right way
16:44:28 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: They'd be happier to not write multiple stylesheets just to display their site in both horizontal and vertical.
16:44:32 <fantasai> and I'd rather have a spec that specifies the right way to handle it
16:44:43 <fantasai> than specify IE's behavior
16:44:52 <TabAtkins> glazou: I don't want us to talk about statistics that we don't know the details of.
16:45:24 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: I'm fine with saying that the current IE solution is wrong, that's fine.  But I'm not fine with saying "use a media query, and just duplicate all your stylesheets".
16:45:43 <murakami> Japanese ebook publisher and authors really want vertical writing.
16:45:45 <fantasai> What is the objection to specifying margin-start/end/etc ?
16:45:49 <fantasai> And putting that in a spec?
16:45:58 <TabAtkins> howcome: It's not good enough to print if you just rotate the numbers.
16:46:22 <TabAtkins> glazou: [points to fantasai's question in IRC]
16:46:29 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: I have no objection.
16:46:37 <TabAtkins> howcome: I object to that.
16:46:57 <TabAtkins> glazou: CSS was written originally with mostly western text in mind.  We didn't design things with vertical text in mind.
16:47:13 <TabAtkins> glazou: I remember requests from 97, 99 asking for *-start, *-end properties.
16:47:29 <TabAtkins> howcome: There is no western bias in top/left/bottom/right.
16:48:02 <TabAtkins> glazou: Graphically, yes.  Top means top.  But if you're doing something script-related, you want them to easily change when you swap writing direction.
16:48:05 <fantasai> sylvaing, murakami: In that case I propose creating such a spec, and I am happy to work on that with Murakami-san in September/October.
16:48:11 <TabAtkins> howcome: So you write another stylesheet.
16:48:26 <TabAtkins> glazou: Frex, in Mozilla we have a lot of stylesheets that *do not work* if you change the writing direction.
16:48:27 <fantasai> s/murakami:/murakami,/
16:48:47 <TabAtkins> howcome: Having a feature query could work.
16:49:20 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: What specifically is the media query checking for?
16:49:31 <TabAtkins> howcome: Whether writing-mode is implemented or not.
16:49:41 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: You realize that people will then ask for media queries for every property?
16:49:49 <TabAtkins> howcome: I think we can make a case that writing-mode is special.
16:49:53 <TabAtkins> glazou: I don't think so.
16:50:17 <TabAtkins> howcome: We can ask if vertical layout is supported.
16:50:23 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: I don't trust UAs.
16:50:57 <TabAtkins> glazou: It's still not workable.  We'll need two stylesheets, one for browsers that support things properly, and one for ones that do it the iE way.  It becomes feature detection.
16:51:16 <sylvaing> clarification: we don't trust UAs to report property-level capability and this is one reason why we always said no to stylesheet-level capability checks
16:51:30 <TabAtkins> glazou: Let's talk IE.  Next version of IE does writing-mode.  [some example of bad automatic choice of stylesheets]
16:52:21 <TabAtkins> I think it's extremely unique that this one property has so much power to change the layout of the page.
16:53:04 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: Okay, hakon, now you've detected that vertical writing is supported.  Now do top/etc logical or physical?
16:53:13 <TabAtkins> howcome: Physical.
16:54:08 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: So now if I'm writing an ebook I have to write two different stylesheets for vertical and horizontal text layout.
16:54:42 <TabAtkins> glazou: Why do you object to *-start, etc?
16:54:57 <TabAtkins> howcome: We'll see an explosion of new properties.
16:55:27 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: I think people will be able to just use a single property
16:55:34 <TabAtkins> howcome: I think it's very expensive to duplicate all the properties.
16:56:08 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: It's very expensive for authors to write two stylesheets.  They're come up with their own solutions around it.
16:56:53 <TabAtkins> howcome: I don't think that just rotating the values is good enough.  I think you'll need different values for some things.
16:57:04 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: I don't think writing two stylesheets is good enough.
16:57:14 <TabAtkins> glazou: I'd like to ask Steve about what Adobe does to solve this problem.
16:57:47 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: Do we know anyone in the epub space who could help us out here?
16:58:17 <TabAtkins> szilles: There are indeed times where you do want different stylesheets for vertical and horizontal.  There are also times when "good enough" is fine, and there should be a place for doing it only once.
16:58:42 <TabAtkins> szilles: I think that in Japan they'll probably start using the start/end/etc, but they'll also sometimes want different stylesheets.
16:58:51 <TabAtkins> szilles: So I think we'll end up needing both mechanisms.
16:59:00 <TabAtkins> szilles: I recommend we write up start/end and get it out the door first.
16:59:10 <TabAtkins> szilles: To follow along with what fantasai said.
16:59:23 <TabAtkins> glazou: Hakon, is that fine for you?
16:59:42 <TabAtkins> glazou: In the meantime we're progressing.
17:00:01 <TabAtkins> ACTION fantasi, steve: write up a proposal for the start/end stuff.
17:00:01 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - fantasi,
17:00:08 <TabAtkins> ACTION fantasai, steve: write up a proposal for the start/end stuff.
17:00:08 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - fantasai,
17:00:13 <TabAtkins> ACTION fantasai , steve: write up a proposal for the start/end stuff.
17:00:13 <trackbot> Created ACTION-224 - , steve: write up a proposal for the start/end stuff. [on Elika Etemad - due 2010-04-21].
17:00:29 <TabAtkins> murakami: What about the pseudoclass proposal?
17:00:41 <TabAtkins> glazou: It's difficult to test the value of a property in a pseudoclass.
17:01:12 <TabAtkins> murakami: We can already do things with ltr and rtl languages.
17:01:24 <Zakim> -SteveZ.a
17:01:28 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
17:01:29 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
17:01:29 <Zakim> -[Apple]
17:01:30 <TabAtkins> glazou: Ah, like current language stuff.  Maybe.  We'll discuss, come back to it next week's telcon.
17:01:31 <Zakim> -glazou
17:01:32 <fantasai> No, that's referring to information in the document
17:01:38 <Zakim> -TabAtkins
17:01:39 <Zakim> -murakami
17:01:39 <Zakim> -plinss
17:01:40 <fantasai> not in the style sheet
17:01:42 <Zakim> -[Apple.a]
17:01:49 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]
17:01:50 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:01:52 <Zakim> Attendees were dsinger, +81.48.883.aaaa, glazou, murakami, TabAtkins, plinss, dethbakin, smfr, howcome, [Microsoft], SteveZ, [Apple], fantasai, [IPcaller]
17:02:02 <TabAtkins> Yeah, bidi direction is carried by the elements themselves.
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