13:50:47 RRSAgent has joined #sparql 13:50:47 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/04/13-sparql-irc 13:50:49 RRSAgent, make logs world 13:50:49 Zakim has joined #sparql 13:50:51 zakim, this will be SPARQL 13:50:51 ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes 13:50:51 Zakim, this will be 77277 13:50:52 ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes 13:50:52 Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference 13:50:52 Date: 13 April 2010 13:50:56 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2010-04-13 13:50:58 Chair: LeeF 13:51:07 Regrets: AxelPolleres, Souri 13:53:06 Prateek has joined #sparql 13:54:51 MattPerry has joined #sparql 13:57:41 SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started 13:57:48 +bglimm 13:57:56 SteveH has joined #sparql 13:58:00 dcharbon2 has joined #sparql 13:58:27 mikedz has joined #sparql 13:58:59 zakim, stop ignoring my pass code 13:58:59 I don't understand 'stop ignoring my pass code', LeeF 13:59:04 +kasei 13:59:05 +LeeF 13:59:06 thanks, zakim 13:59:12 +[Garlik] 13:59:20 Zakim, mute me 13:59:24 kasei should now be muted 13:59:25 + +1.603.897.aaaa 13:59:28 Zakim, [Garlik] is temporarily SteveH 13:59:28 +SteveH; got it 13:59:33 no 13:59:44 zakim, 1.603.897.aaaa is me 13:59:44 sorry, MattPerry, I do not recognize a party named '1.603.897.aaaa' 13:59:53 zakim, aaaa is MattPerry 13:59:53 +MattPerry; got it 14:00:12 zakim, dial ivan-voip 14:00:12 ok, ivan; the call is being made 14:00:12 +Ivan 14:00:36 +pgearon 14:00:38 +??P9 14:00:40 try again 14:00:43 Zakim, ??P9 is me 14:00:44 zakim, drop me 14:00:48 +AlexPassant; got it 14:00:49 hi 14:00:50 Ivan is being disconnected 14:00:52 -Ivan 14:00:54 zakim, dial ivan-voip 14:00:56 ok, ivan; the call is being made 14:00:58 +Ivan 14:01:08 tommik has joined #sparql 14:01:30 Zakim, mute me 14:01:30 bglimm should now be muted 14:01:40 zakim, who's on the phone? 14:01:40 On the phone I see bglimm (muted), kasei (muted), LeeF, SteveH, MattPerry, Ivan, pgearon, AlexPassant 14:02:01 + +035840564aabb 14:02:08 zakim, aabb is me 14:02:08 +tommik; got it 14:02:29 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-04-06 14:02:34 +Sandro 14:03:03 yes 14:03:06 +??P37 14:03:16 zakim, ??P37 is me 14:03:16 +AndyS; got it 14:03:17 chimezie has joined #sparql 14:03:29 .. probably ... 14:04:28 Scribenick: AlexPassant 14:04:31 +dcharbon2 14:04:42 zakim, mute me 14:04:43 dcharbon2 should now be muted 14:04:45 + +1.916.214.aacc 14:05:24 + +1.216.636.aadd 14:05:31 that is me, yes ca 14:05:38 Zakim, +1.216.636.aadd is me 14:05:38 +chimezie; got it 14:06:00 Zakim, +1.916.214.aacc is mikedz 14:06:00 +mikedz; got it 14:06:46 zakim, who's on the phone? 14:06:46 On the phone I see bglimm (muted), kasei (muted), LeeF, SteveH, MattPerry, Ivan, pgearon, AlexPassant, tommik, Sandro, AndyS, dcharbon2 (muted), mikedz, chimezie 14:07:13 topic: Admin 14:07:14 PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-04-06 14:07:15 topic: admin issues 14:08:08 RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-04-06 14:08:18 LeeF: minutes approved 14:08:28 ... next meeting next week same time 14:08:31 Next meeting: 2010-04-20 @ 15:00 UK / 10:00 EST (scribe: chimezie) 14:08:34 ... chimezie will scribe 14:08:50 i'm at risk for next week 14:10:03 LeeF: new member in the WG 14:10:22 mikedz: interested in federated queries 14:10:47 ... not joined the WG - here as observer 14:11:14 LeeF: usually WG meetings are not open to public 14:11:48 ... but no issues for having an observer 14:11:56 topic: Use PATCH in HTTP Protocol for RDF 14:12:03 Traditionally (DAWG), we get observers to scribe :-) 14:12:04 ... first topic: issues of PATCH in HTTP 14:12:12 ... based on Ivan's email / blog post 14:12:27 ... using it to track RDF changes 14:12:35 ... do we want PATCH in the Update protocol 14:12:38 s/\/blog post// 14:12:51 q+ 14:13:19 chimezie: conversations about what would it mean to use PATCH in the protocol 14:13:28 ... and if we should have it or not 14:13:49 ... not sure if that's a good fit for the protocol 14:14:16 ... if we specify it, how much we do 14:14:43 ... make sure what format we use in PATCH, and what semantics we use 14:14:56 ... if we do add PATCH 14:15:16 ... do we have an informal section - as one of the formats that can be used 14:15:27 ... if we incorporate PATCH in the HTTP protocol 14:15:39 ... ambiguity of having two bindings 14:15:56 ... might be considered as an abuse of the protocol 14:16:12 q+ to understand what the proposal for how PATCH would be used would be 14:16:24 ack SteveH 14:16:36 SteveH: read the RFC 14:16:44 ... pretty compatible w/ SPARQL update 14:16:52 ... given the HTTP client libraries 14:17:07 ... wouldnt want to get PATCH only 14:17:19 ack 14:17:21 ack me 14:17:21 LeeF, you wanted to understand what the proposal for how PATCH would be used would be 14:17:33 LeeF: appropriate use for PATCH 14:17:40 ... content for the PATCH will be a SPARQL Update request ? 14:17:46 chimezie: that's my understanding 14:18:10 LeeF: any idea if there's WSDL2 bindings for PATCH 14:18:21 chimezie: don't know but will be surprised if there's 14:18:43 q+ to ask about whether patch allows conneg 14:19:17 LeeF: main question is whether we want it in the protocol document 14:19:29 ... wounldnt affect the doc 14:19:51 http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5789 14:20:09 chimezie: will resolve ambiguity of the PATCH format 14:20:23 ack sandro 14:20:23 sandro, you wanted to ask about whether patch allows conneg 14:20:41 sandro: wondering if theres appropriate content negociation 14:21:03 chimezie: PATCH method is extensible and allows to specify the format 14:21:22 sandro: using media/type SPARQL/Update 14:21:37 q? 14:21:46 zakim, unmute me 14:21:46 dcharbon2 should no longer be muted 14:21:49 ConNeg allways applies independent of verb? RFC 2616 sec 12 14:22:06 dcharbon2: looking at it, wondering if there's interactions with the regular SPARQL Protocol doc 14:22:34 ... given a PATCH to a graph, question is what's the semantics 14:22:44 ... you can use PATCH instead of POST to post an update request 14:23:55 chimezie: if it was a normative part, it should have an implementation 14:25:19 LeeF: can include informative section 14:25:31 sandro: may go one step further 14:25:42 ... if you use PATCH w/ this media type, here's what it means 14:25:45 ... but still optional 14:25:51 LeeF: main concern is not making it mandatory 14:26:05 it it's optional, I don't see the point 14:26:10 *if it's 14:27:03 +q 14:28:01 ack pgearon 14:28:01 SteveH: prefer not mentioning at all if that's optional 14:28:36 pgearon_: might be implementation dependant 14:31:42 LeeF: seems that PATCH is ok for SPARQL Update but people will use POST 14:31:55 ... bue would be good to talk about PATCH in the protocol document 14:32:45 topic: URIs for built-in functions 14:33:02 LeeF: brief discussion last week 14:33:08 ... discussion w/ team contact 14:33:34 dcharbon2 has left #sparql 14:33:44 ... general feeling that built-ins functions (for 1.0 and new ones in 1.1) should have URIs in addition to keywords in the language 14:33:44 dcharbon2 has joined #sparql 14:33:52 ... in line with extension functions and the rest of the language 14:33:59 ... what these URIs should look like ? 14:34:04 zakim, mute me 14:34:04 dcharbon2 should now be muted 14:34:10 q? 14:34:14 ... what do you get when dereferencing 14:34:19 Zakim, mute me 14:34:19 chimezie should now be muted 14:34:48 AndyS: assigning URIS and their content 14:35:05 sandro: policy is that WG can pick any unused namespace 14:35:08 http://www.w3.org/2007/rif-builtin-function# 14:35:09 ... in /ns or in their space 14:35:19 ... eg RIF namespace for URIs 14:35:21 http://www.w3.org/ns/rif-builtin-function# 14:35:42 http://www.w3.org/ns/sparql-function# 14:35:53 ... # or / is up to the group 14:35:54 http://www.w3.org/ns/sparql-function/add 14:36:00 ... would go to the / option 14:36:07 ... but that's up to the WG 14:36:14 ... procedure: need some documents 14:36:19 RDFa? 14:36:22 ... better if we have clever Linked Data 14:36:31 ... HTML, RDFa, conneg, etc. 14:37:49 http://www.w3.org/ns/sparql-function # or / 14:38:00 preference for # to avoid conneg issues 14:38:31 Observation: # typically means one doc, / means one doc per function 14:38:35 SD doc is (maybe mistakenly) already calling them 'functions' 14:38:42 and I thought so was another doc 14:38:57 Zakim, unmute me 14:38:57 kasei should no longer be muted 14:39:12 maybe: http://www.w3.org/ns/sparql/add 14:39:16 ?? .../ns/sparql#function-add or .../ns/sparql/function#add 14:39:30 kasei: done in the SD since the begining 14:39:52 ... /ns/sparql-function 14:39:57 q+ 14:40:06 ack SteveH 14:40:23 ... /ns/sparql-function /ns/sparql-aggregate 14:40:31 ... /ns/sparql 14:40:32 q+ 14:40:37 ack kasei 14:41:00 kasei: need to make sure the SD doc is updated 14:41:05 ... based on the naming 14:41:12 Potential dual use: v few cases but MIN as agg and MIN as function 14:41:48 q+ 14:41:52 ack SteveH 14:42:22 SteveH: function operate on the evaluated set 14:42:34 ... function has a different definition that the aggregate itself 14:42:36 SteveH, do you have an idea of what sd:AggregateFunction should be renamed? Just sd:Aggregate? 14:43:32 ok. brings up more modeling issues, but will follow up on mailing list. 14:44:10 LeeF: consensus that the docuemnt should not refer to aggregate functions 14:44:13 ... but to aggregate 14:44:17 s/docuemnt/document 14:44:31 ... /ns/sparql 14:44:46 Zakim, mute me 14:44:46 kasei should now be muted 14:45:06 ... /ns/sparql/add /ns/sparql/count 14:45:41 syntactically that would be a problem since either can appear in a select expr, right? 14:45:44 q+ 14:45:46 AndyS: wondering about name clashes 14:45:52 ack SteveH 14:46:08 SteveH: dont think you can have a function and aggregate with the same name 14:46:18 -pgearon 14:46:21 ... but may miss a case in the grammar when it's needed 14:46:33 AndyS: might have keywords that create confusion 14:46:36 ... mapping to the same URI 14:47:15 PROPOSED: SPARQL built-in functions and built-in aggregates have URIs of the form http://www.w3.org/ns/sparql/{function-or-aggregate-name} 14:47:31 lower case? 14:47:44 yes, please :) 14:47:51 +pgearon 14:48:00 PROPOSED: SPARQL built-in functions and built-in aggregates have URIs of the form http://www.w3.org/ns/sparql/{lower-case-function-or-aggregate-name} 14:48:13 +1 14:48:16 +1 14:48:26 +1 14:48:27 RESOLVED: SPARQL built-in functions and built-in aggregates have URIs of the form http://www.w3.org/ns/sparql/{lower-case-function-or-aggregate-name} 14:48:44 no 14:49:28 Zakim, unmute me 14:49:28 bglimm should no longer be muted 14:49:37 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010AprJun/0030.html 14:50:32 bglimm: first proposed change - access graph should be uniquely specified 14:50:43 ... wanted to make clear that it's unique up to different blank node names 14:50:46 Zakim, unmute me 14:50:46 chimezie should no longer be muted 14:50:50 ... same proposal using different words 14:51:03 ... happy to take either of both 14:51:10 ... other proposed change 14:51:19 ... about infinite solutions 14:52:13 ericP has joined #sparql 14:52:26 federation today? 14:52:41 think it will get pushed to next week, ericP, sorry 14:52:44 ... "trivial" infinite answers 14:52:47 no sweat 14:52:51 ericP has left #sparql 14:53:01 ... suggested to say the entailement regime shuld define what trivial infinite answer is 14:53:43 +1 to andy 14:55:05 chimezie: might be best if each part define what it means 14:56:58 LeeF: federated query 14:57:06 ... running out of time, topic for next week 14:57:42 ... dont see consensus aroung MINUS / NOT EXISTS 14:59:46 Adjourned 14:59:48 -chimezie 14:59:50 -SteveH 14:59:52 -bglimm 14:59:53 zakim, drop me 14:59:53 -MattPerry 14:59:53 -mikedz 14:59:53 Ivan is being disconnected 14:59:54 -Sandro 14:59:54 -Ivan 14:59:56 -LeeF 14:59:57 -tommik 14:59:59 -dcharbon2 15:00:01 -pgearon 15:00:03 -kasei 15:00:07 don't knock extra minutes LeeF 15:00:26 -AndyS 15:00:30 LeeF: Happy to continue discussing MINUS/NOT EXISTS on mailing list as long as there is active discussion, but following active discussion, I intend to put the questiont o a vote of the group and move on with a resolution based on the vote 15:00:38 RRSAgent, make minutes 15:00:38 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/13-sparql-minutes.html AlexPassant 15:00:57 AlexPassant, you should be able to use http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/panel to get the nicely formatted minutes up onto the wiki 15:01:31 thanks LeeF 15:01:42 SteveH has joined #sparql 15:18:35 -AlexPassant 15:18:36 SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended 15:18:40 Attendees were bglimm, kasei, LeeF, +1.603.897.aaaa, SteveH, MattPerry, Ivan, pgearon, AlexPassant, +035840564aabb, tommik, Sandro, AndyS, dcharbon2, chimezie, mikedz 16:16:18 pgearon_ has left #sparql 17:06:23 Zakim has left #sparql 19:27:07 SteveH_ has joined #sparql