IRC log of sparql on 2010-04-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:50:47 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #sparql
13:50:47 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/04/13-sparql-irc
13:50:49 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:50:49 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #sparql
13:50:51 [LeeF]
zakim, this will be SPARQL
13:50:51 [Zakim]
ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
13:50:51 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 77277
13:50:52 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
13:50:52 [trackbot]
Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
13:50:52 [trackbot]
Date: 13 April 2010
13:50:56 [LeeF]
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2010-04-13
13:50:58 [LeeF]
Chair: LeeF
13:51:07 [LeeF]
Regrets: AxelPolleres, Souri
13:53:06 [Prateek]
Prateek has joined #sparql
13:54:51 [MattPerry]
MattPerry has joined #sparql
13:57:41 [Zakim]
SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started
13:57:48 [Zakim]
+bglimm
13:57:56 [SteveH]
SteveH has joined #sparql
13:58:00 [dcharbon2]
dcharbon2 has joined #sparql
13:58:27 [mikedz]
mikedz has joined #sparql
13:58:59 [LeeF]
zakim, stop ignoring my pass code
13:58:59 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'stop ignoring my pass code', LeeF
13:59:04 [Zakim]
+kasei
13:59:05 [Zakim]
+LeeF
13:59:06 [LeeF]
thanks, zakim
13:59:12 [Zakim]
+[Garlik]
13:59:20 [kasei]
Zakim, mute me
13:59:24 [Zakim]
kasei should now be muted
13:59:25 [Zakim]
+ +1.603.897.aaaa
13:59:28 [SteveH]
Zakim, [Garlik] is temporarily SteveH
13:59:28 [Zakim]
+SteveH; got it
13:59:33 [kasei]
no
13:59:44 [MattPerry]
zakim, 1.603.897.aaaa is me
13:59:44 [Zakim]
sorry, MattPerry, I do not recognize a party named '1.603.897.aaaa'
13:59:53 [LeeF]
zakim, aaaa is MattPerry
13:59:53 [Zakim]
+MattPerry; got it
14:00:12 [ivan]
zakim, dial ivan-voip
14:00:12 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
14:00:12 [Zakim]
+Ivan
14:00:36 [Zakim]
+pgearon
14:00:38 [Zakim]
+??P9
14:00:40 [ivan]
try again
14:00:43 [AlexPassant]
Zakim, ??P9 is me
14:00:44 [ivan]
zakim, drop me
14:00:48 [Zakim]
+AlexPassant; got it
14:00:49 [AlexPassant]
hi
14:00:50 [Zakim]
Ivan is being disconnected
14:00:52 [Zakim]
-Ivan
14:00:54 [ivan]
zakim, dial ivan-voip
14:00:56 [Zakim]
ok, ivan; the call is being made
14:00:58 [Zakim]
+Ivan
14:01:08 [tommik]
tommik has joined #sparql
14:01:30 [bglimm]
Zakim, mute me
14:01:30 [Zakim]
bglimm should now be muted
14:01:40 [LeeF]
zakim, who's on the phone?
14:01:40 [Zakim]
On the phone I see bglimm (muted), kasei (muted), LeeF, SteveH, MattPerry, Ivan, pgearon, AlexPassant
14:02:01 [Zakim]
+ +035840564aabb
14:02:08 [tommik]
zakim, aabb is me
14:02:08 [Zakim]
+tommik; got it
14:02:29 [LeeF]
http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-04-06
14:02:34 [Zakim]
+Sandro
14:03:03 [AlexPassant]
yes
14:03:06 [Zakim]
+??P37
14:03:16 [AndyS]
zakim, ??P37 is me
14:03:16 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
14:03:17 [chimezie]
chimezie has joined #sparql
14:03:29 [AndyS]
.. probably ...
14:04:28 [LeeF]
Scribenick: AlexPassant
14:04:31 [Zakim]
+dcharbon2
14:04:42 [dcharbon2]
zakim, mute me
14:04:43 [Zakim]
dcharbon2 should now be muted
14:04:45 [Zakim]
+ +1.916.214.aacc
14:05:24 [Zakim]
+ +1.216.636.aadd
14:05:31 [mikedz]
that is me, yes ca
14:05:38 [chimezie]
Zakim, +1.216.636.aadd is me
14:05:38 [Zakim]
+chimezie; got it
14:06:00 [bglimm]
Zakim, +1.916.214.aacc is mikedz
14:06:00 [Zakim]
+mikedz; got it
14:06:46 [LeeF]
zakim, who's on the phone?
14:06:46 [Zakim]
On the phone I see bglimm (muted), kasei (muted), LeeF, SteveH, MattPerry, Ivan, pgearon, AlexPassant, tommik, Sandro, AndyS, dcharbon2 (muted), mikedz, chimezie
14:07:13 [LeeF]
topic: Admin
14:07:14 [LeeF]
PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-04-06
14:07:15 [AlexPassant]
topic: admin issues
14:08:08 [LeeF]
RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-04-06
14:08:18 [AlexPassant]
LeeF: minutes approved
14:08:28 [AlexPassant]
... next meeting next week same time
14:08:31 [LeeF]
Next meeting: 2010-04-20 @ 15:00 UK / 10:00 EST (scribe: chimezie)
14:08:34 [AlexPassant]
... chimezie will scribe
14:08:50 [kasei]
i'm at risk for next week
14:10:03 [AlexPassant]
LeeF: new member in the WG
14:10:22 [AlexPassant]
mikedz: interested in federated queries
14:10:47 [AlexPassant]
... not joined the WG - here as observer
14:11:14 [AlexPassant]
LeeF: usually WG meetings are not open to public
14:11:48 [AlexPassant]
... but no issues for having an observer
14:11:56 [LeeF]
topic: Use PATCH in HTTP Protocol for RDF
14:12:03 [AndyS]
Traditionally (DAWG), we get observers to scribe :-)
14:12:04 [AlexPassant]
... first topic: issues of PATCH in HTTP
14:12:12 [AlexPassant]
... based on Ivan's email / blog post
14:12:27 [AlexPassant]
... using it to track RDF changes
14:12:35 [AlexPassant]
... do we want PATCH in the Update protocol
14:12:38 [ivan]
s/\/blog post//
14:12:51 [SteveH]
q+
14:13:19 [AlexPassant]
chimezie: conversations about what would it mean to use PATCH in the protocol
14:13:28 [AlexPassant]
... and if we should have it or not
14:13:49 [AlexPassant]
... not sure if that's a good fit for the protocol
14:14:16 [AlexPassant]
... if we specify it, how much we do
14:14:43 [AlexPassant]
... make sure what format we use in PATCH, and what semantics we use
14:14:56 [AlexPassant]
... if we do add PATCH
14:15:16 [AlexPassant]
... do we have an informal section - as one of the formats that can be used
14:15:27 [AlexPassant]
... if we incorporate PATCH in the HTTP protocol
14:15:39 [AlexPassant]
... ambiguity of having two bindings
14:15:56 [AlexPassant]
... might be considered as an abuse of the protocol
14:16:12 [LeeF]
q+ to understand what the proposal for how PATCH would be used would be
14:16:24 [LeeF]
ack SteveH
14:16:36 [AlexPassant]
SteveH: read the RFC
14:16:44 [AlexPassant]
... pretty compatible w/ SPARQL update
14:16:52 [AlexPassant]
... given the HTTP client libraries
14:17:07 [AlexPassant]
... wouldnt want to get PATCH only
14:17:19 [LeeF]
ack
14:17:21 [LeeF]
ack me
14:17:21 [Zakim]
LeeF, you wanted to understand what the proposal for how PATCH would be used would be
14:17:33 [AlexPassant]
LeeF: appropriate use for PATCH
14:17:40 [AlexPassant]
... content for the PATCH will be a SPARQL Update request ?
14:17:46 [AlexPassant]
chimezie: that's my understanding
14:18:10 [AlexPassant]
LeeF: any idea if there's WSDL2 bindings for PATCH
14:18:21 [AlexPassant]
chimezie: don't know but will be surprised if there's
14:18:43 [sandro]
q+ to ask about whether patch allows conneg
14:19:17 [AlexPassant]
LeeF: main question is whether we want it in the protocol document
14:19:29 [AlexPassant]
... wounldnt affect the doc
14:19:51 [AndyS]
http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5789
14:20:09 [AlexPassant]
chimezie: will resolve ambiguity of the PATCH format
14:20:23 [LeeF]
ack sandro
14:20:23 [Zakim]
sandro, you wanted to ask about whether patch allows conneg
14:20:41 [AlexPassant]
sandro: wondering if theres appropriate content negociation
14:21:03 [AlexPassant]
chimezie: PATCH method is extensible and allows to specify the format
14:21:22 [AlexPassant]
sandro: using media/type SPARQL/Update
14:21:37 [LeeF]
q?
14:21:46 [dcharbon2]
zakim, unmute me
14:21:46 [Zakim]
dcharbon2 should no longer be muted
14:21:49 [AndyS]
ConNeg allways applies independent of verb? RFC 2616 sec 12
14:22:06 [AlexPassant]
dcharbon2: looking at it, wondering if there's interactions with the regular SPARQL Protocol doc
14:22:34 [AlexPassant]
... given a PATCH to a graph, question is what's the semantics
14:22:44 [AlexPassant]
... you can use PATCH instead of POST to post an update request
14:23:55 [AlexPassant]
chimezie: if it was a normative part, it should have an implementation
14:25:19 [AlexPassant]
LeeF: can include informative section
14:25:31 [AlexPassant]
sandro: may go one step further
14:25:42 [AlexPassant]
... if you use PATCH w/ this media type, here's what it means
14:25:45 [AlexPassant]
... but still optional
14:25:51 [AlexPassant]
LeeF: main concern is not making it mandatory
14:26:05 [SteveH]
it it's optional, I don't see the point
14:26:10 [SteveH]
*if it's
14:27:03 [pgearon_]
+q
14:28:01 [LeeF]
ack pgearon
14:28:01 [AlexPassant]
SteveH: prefer not mentioning at all if that's optional
14:28:36 [AlexPassant]
pgearon_: might be implementation dependant
14:31:42 [AlexPassant]
LeeF: seems that PATCH is ok for SPARQL Update but people will use POST
14:31:55 [AlexPassant]
... bue would be good to talk about PATCH in the protocol document
14:32:45 [LeeF]
topic: URIs for built-in functions
14:33:02 [AlexPassant]
LeeF: brief discussion last week
14:33:08 [AlexPassant]
... discussion w/ team contact
14:33:34 [dcharbon2]
dcharbon2 has left #sparql
14:33:44 [AlexPassant]
... general feeling that built-ins functions (for 1.0 and new ones in 1.1) should have URIs in addition to keywords in the language
14:33:44 [dcharbon2]
dcharbon2 has joined #sparql
14:33:52 [AlexPassant]
... in line with extension functions and the rest of the language
14:33:59 [AlexPassant]
... what these URIs should look like ?
14:34:04 [dcharbon2]
zakim, mute me
14:34:04 [Zakim]
dcharbon2 should now be muted
14:34:10 [LeeF]
q?
14:34:14 [AlexPassant]
... what do you get when dereferencing
14:34:19 [chimezie]
Zakim, mute me
14:34:19 [Zakim]
chimezie should now be muted
14:34:48 [AlexPassant]
AndyS: assigning URIS and their content
14:35:05 [AlexPassant]
sandro: policy is that WG can pick any unused namespace
14:35:08 [sandro]
http://www.w3.org/2007/rif-builtin-function#
14:35:09 [AlexPassant]
... in /ns or in their space
14:35:19 [AlexPassant]
... eg RIF namespace for URIs
14:35:21 [sandro]
http://www.w3.org/ns/rif-builtin-function#
14:35:42 [sandro]
http://www.w3.org/ns/sparql-function#
14:35:53 [AlexPassant]
... # or / is up to the group
14:35:54 [sandro]
http://www.w3.org/ns/sparql-function/add
14:36:00 [AlexPassant]
... would go to the / option
14:36:07 [AlexPassant]
... but that's up to the WG
14:36:14 [AlexPassant]
... procedure: need some documents
14:36:19 [SteveH]
RDFa?
14:36:22 [AlexPassant]
... better if we have clever Linked Data
14:36:31 [AlexPassant]
... HTML, RDFa, conneg, etc.
14:37:49 [LeeF]
http://www.w3.org/ns/sparql-function # or /
14:38:00 [AlexPassant]
preference for # to avoid conneg issues
14:38:31 [AndyS]
Observation: # typically means one doc, / means one doc per function
14:38:35 [kasei]
SD doc is (maybe mistakenly) already calling them 'functions'
14:38:42 [kasei]
and I thought so was another doc
14:38:57 [kasei]
Zakim, unmute me
14:38:57 [Zakim]
kasei should no longer be muted
14:39:12 [sandro]
maybe: http://www.w3.org/ns/sparql/add
14:39:16 [AndyS]
?? .../ns/sparql#function-add or .../ns/sparql/function#add
14:39:30 [AlexPassant]
kasei: done in the SD since the begining
14:39:52 [LeeF]
... /ns/sparql-function
14:39:57 [SteveH]
q+
14:40:06 [LeeF]
ack SteveH
14:40:23 [LeeF]
... /ns/sparql-function /ns/sparql-aggregate
14:40:31 [LeeF]
... /ns/sparql
14:40:32 [kasei]
q+
14:40:37 [LeeF]
ack kasei
14:41:00 [AlexPassant]
kasei: need to make sure the SD doc is updated
14:41:05 [AlexPassant]
... based on the naming
14:41:12 [AndyS]
Potential dual use: v few cases but MIN as agg and MIN as function
14:41:48 [SteveH]
q+
14:41:52 [LeeF]
ack SteveH
14:42:22 [AlexPassant]
SteveH: function operate on the evaluated set
14:42:34 [AlexPassant]
... function has a different definition that the aggregate itself
14:42:36 [kasei]
SteveH, do you have an idea of what sd:AggregateFunction should be renamed? Just sd:Aggregate?
14:43:32 [kasei]
ok. brings up more modeling issues, but will follow up on mailing list.
14:44:10 [AlexPassant]
LeeF: consensus that the docuemnt should not refer to aggregate functions
14:44:13 [AlexPassant]
... but to aggregate
14:44:17 [AlexPassant]
s/docuemnt/document
14:44:31 [LeeF]
... /ns/sparql
14:44:46 [kasei]
Zakim, mute me
14:44:46 [Zakim]
kasei should now be muted
14:45:06 [LeeF]
... /ns/sparql/add /ns/sparql/count
14:45:41 [kasei]
syntactically that would be a problem since either can appear in a select expr, right?
14:45:44 [SteveH]
q+
14:45:46 [AlexPassant]
AndyS: wondering about name clashes
14:45:52 [LeeF]
ack SteveH
14:46:08 [AlexPassant]
SteveH: dont think you can have a function and aggregate with the same name
14:46:18 [Zakim]
-pgearon
14:46:21 [AlexPassant]
... but may miss a case in the grammar when it's needed
14:46:33 [AlexPassant]
AndyS: might have keywords that create confusion
14:46:36 [AlexPassant]
... mapping to the same URI
14:47:15 [LeeF]
PROPOSED: SPARQL built-in functions and built-in aggregates have URIs of the form http://www.w3.org/ns/sparql/{function-or-aggregate-name}
14:47:31 [SteveH]
lower case?
14:47:44 [kasei]
yes, please :)
14:47:51 [Zakim]
+pgearon
14:48:00 [LeeF]
PROPOSED: SPARQL built-in functions and built-in aggregates have URIs of the form http://www.w3.org/ns/sparql/{lower-case-function-or-aggregate-name}
14:48:13 [bglimm]
+1
14:48:16 [SteveH]
+1
14:48:26 [ivan]
+1
14:48:27 [LeeF]
RESOLVED: SPARQL built-in functions and built-in aggregates have URIs of the form http://www.w3.org/ns/sparql/{lower-case-function-or-aggregate-name}
14:48:44 [AndyS]
no
14:49:28 [bglimm]
Zakim, unmute me
14:49:28 [Zakim]
bglimm should no longer be muted
14:49:37 [bglimm]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010AprJun/0030.html
14:50:32 [AlexPassant]
bglimm: first proposed change - access graph should be uniquely specified
14:50:43 [AlexPassant]
... wanted to make clear that it's unique up to different blank node names
14:50:46 [chimezie]
Zakim, unmute me
14:50:46 [Zakim]
chimezie should no longer be muted
14:50:50 [AlexPassant]
... same proposal using different words
14:51:03 [AlexPassant]
... happy to take either of both
14:51:10 [AlexPassant]
... other proposed change
14:51:19 [AlexPassant]
... about infinite solutions
14:52:13 [ericP]
ericP has joined #sparql
14:52:26 [ericP]
federation today?
14:52:41 [LeeF]
think it will get pushed to next week, ericP, sorry
14:52:44 [AlexPassant]
... "trivial" infinite answers
14:52:47 [ericP]
no sweat
14:52:51 [ericP]
ericP has left #sparql
14:53:01 [AlexPassant]
... suggested to say the entailement regime shuld define what trivial infinite answer is
14:53:43 [ivan]
+1 to andy
14:55:05 [AlexPassant]
chimezie: might be best if each part define what it means
14:56:58 [AlexPassant]
LeeF: federated query
14:57:06 [AlexPassant]
... running out of time, topic for next week
14:57:42 [AlexPassant]
... dont see consensus aroung MINUS / NOT EXISTS
14:59:46 [LeeF]
Adjourned
14:59:48 [Zakim]
-chimezie
14:59:50 [Zakim]
-SteveH
14:59:52 [Zakim]
-bglimm
14:59:53 [ivan]
zakim, drop me
14:59:53 [Zakim]
-MattPerry
14:59:53 [Zakim]
-mikedz
14:59:53 [Zakim]
Ivan is being disconnected
14:59:54 [Zakim]
-Sandro
14:59:54 [Zakim]
-Ivan
14:59:56 [Zakim]
-LeeF
14:59:57 [Zakim]
-tommik
14:59:59 [Zakim]
-dcharbon2
15:00:01 [Zakim]
-pgearon
15:00:03 [Zakim]
-kasei
15:00:07 [SteveH]
don't knock extra minutes LeeF
15:00:26 [Zakim]
-AndyS
15:00:30 [LeeF]
LeeF: Happy to continue discussing MINUS/NOT EXISTS on mailing list as long as there is active discussion, but following active discussion, I intend to put the questiont o a vote of the group and move on with a resolution based on the vote
15:00:38 [AlexPassant]
RRSAgent, make minutes
15:00:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/13-sparql-minutes.html AlexPassant
15:00:57 [LeeF]
AlexPassant, you should be able to use http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/panel to get the nicely formatted minutes up onto the wiki
15:01:31 [AlexPassant]
thanks LeeF
15:01:42 [SteveH]
SteveH has joined #sparql
15:18:35 [Zakim]
-AlexPassant
15:18:36 [Zakim]
SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended
15:18:40 [Zakim]
Attendees were bglimm, kasei, LeeF, +1.603.897.aaaa, SteveH, MattPerry, Ivan, pgearon, AlexPassant, +035840564aabb, tommik, Sandro, AndyS, dcharbon2, chimezie, mikedz
16:16:18 [pgearon_]
pgearon_ has left #sparql
17:06:23 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #sparql
19:27:07 [SteveH_]
SteveH_ has joined #sparql