15:01:31 RRSAgent has joined #prov-xg 15:01:31 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/04/09-prov-xg-irc 15:01:33 RRSAgent, make logs world 15:01:33 Zakim has joined #prov-xg 15:01:33 thanks Simon!! 15:01:35 Zakim, this will be 98765 15:01:35 ok, trackbot; I see INC_PROVXG()11:00AM scheduled to start now 15:01:36 Meeting: Provenance Incubator Group Teleconference 15:01:36 Date: 09 April 2010 15:01:42 jun has joined #prov-xg 15:01:47 Christine has joined #prov-xg 15:02:33 who's on the phone? 15:03:06 Luc has joined #prov-xg 15:03:12 looks like the phone is not monitored 15:04:10 zakim, dial ivan-voip 15:04:10 ok, ivan; the call is being made 15:04:45 zakim, who is here? 15:04:45 INC_PROVXG()11:00AM has not yet started, ivan 15:04:46 On IRC I see Luc, Christine, jun, Zakim, RRSAgent, Yogesh, jcheney, Paolo, Yolanda, Irini, SamCoppens, smiles, pgroth, ivan, raphael, trackbot 15:07:56 Paul: We've cleaned up user requirements document, addressed comments (see talk section on requirements clean page) 15:08:17 Paul: This version can be passed around and published - let us know good possible venues 15:08:57 Paul: Three scenarios collated from use cases, then how affects requirements by provenance dimension 15:09:46 Yolanda: if acknowledgements do not reflect your contributions, let us know 15:10:00 This is at: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/User_Requirements 15:10:08 Yolanda: Best way to disseminate it? 15:10:37 Ivan: Can produce document to put on Wiki, but in final format 15:11:01 Ivan: Can publish at end of XG as part of report, but could formally publish now also 15:11:34 Yogesh has joined #prov-xg 15:11:39 Yolanda: Advantage of waiting would be to allow updates, but wouldn't get early feedback on anything missing 15:12:06 Ivan: Can put on activity blog on its availability 15:12:30 I'm happy with that 15:13:34 Paul: Wants to add figures, do not want to freeze it yet 15:14:13 Yolanda: Next item: RDF Next Steps workshop paper 15:14:46 Jun: 2 weeks ago talked about submitting group paper to this workshop, had telecon to brainstorm 15:14:57 http://users.ox.ac.uk/~zool0770/papers/RDFNextStep_ProvXG-v10.pdf 15:15:09 Jun: Draft, almost final, paper ready - to submit Sunday 15:16:12 Jun: Sorry was not possible to get everyone involved: too hard to coordinate larger group (contact me if something missed out) 15:17:12 Jun: Target audience is Next Gen RDF working group 15:17:15 ssahoo has joined #prov-xg 15:17:52 DeborahMcG has joined #prov-xg 15:18:12 raphael has joined #prov-xg 15:19:19 Jun: Brief intro on incubator group; use case, requirement gathering process; articulate RDF-relevant provenance requirements; two short messages: need good mechanism in RDF to ID artifacts and graphs in provenance, need standard pattern/practice for provenance of RDF graphs 15:19:58 Jun: Good to get feedback from group on messages 15:21:01 Jun: Not thorough state of the art report, just try to list many technologies and link to Wiki page - if something missing, please say 15:21:31 +q 15:21:35 +q 15:21:36 Jun: Feedback needed today, no major revisions at weekend 15:21:54 ?q 15:22:06 ack pgroth 15:22:38 Paul: Why does standard pattern/practice relate to RDF group? 15:22:40 q- 15:23:00 q+ 15:23:44 Jun: Expression, vocabulary of provenance of RDF graph - lots of different attempts exist - doesn't rule out contribution of our group not specific to technology 15:24:48 q- 15:25:07 ack Luc 15:26:26 Luc: Currently RDF has no notion of provenance; in user reqs we did not refer to provenance coz trying to justify need for provenance 15:27:00 Luc: Same applies: requirements on RDF should not be expressed in terms of provenance 15:28:08 Luc: Not within RDF (WG) to provide mechanism for provenance, as RDF does not include provenance, for provenance group 15:29:19 Chris: Need from RDF WG is to represent metainformation about RDF data, to allow provenance, defined by provenance group, as one application of this 15:30:08 Luc: Current paper does not really explain why this metadata is required from a provenance perspective explicitly enough 15:31:39 Luc: With OPM, encountered need for metadata on RDF graphs with more concrete requirements 15:32:22 +1 to luc's comments 15:34:03 Luc: In context of OPM, could see RDF encoding prov graph, requirements from scoping, annotating graphs; also from wanting provenance of triples 15:34:07 I need also to encode provenance graphs, need provenance of triples, and need provenance of provenance - all of this is not from the opm perspective but from the pml perspective 15:34:58 +q 15:35:34 Jun: Tried to express these in paper need for identifying, annotating graphs 15:35:53 yes - i need annotation of annotations. 15:36:32 Luc: Cannot be as precise without specific provenance model; no agreement on provenance as graphs 15:37:30 agree with Chris on this point 15:37:37 Chris: Did not propose or judge mechanism, but listed mechanisms; only a short position paper; clearly make statement that work needs to be done, not actually do the work 15:37:59 give examples 15:38:03 Yolanda: Could be more specific on our own experiences with state of art 15:38:29 q+ 15:38:50 sorry i am about to drop audio. i agree that judging proposals is hopeless. we might just say that the working group is willing to provide examples of challenges with at least some of our extensive provenance efforts(but not include them in this document) 15:38:51 Jun: Would be good to include everyone's experiences but no time or space 15:39:09 ack Irini 15:39:10 Paolo has joined #prov-xg 15:40:07 q? 15:40:30 Irini: RDF is solely a data model, to add provenance could add such metainformation but then requires provenance of query results: not part of RDF group's work 15:41:55 Jun: Agree specific techs for provenance is in prov group not RDF group 15:43:16 Irini: Need to include discussion of how to express provenance of query of results; maybe too much focus on workflow provenance 15:43:55 Jun: Mention requirements on querying provenance in paper, but outside scope 15:44:14 Irini: Not about querying provenance, but provenance of query results 15:44:57 q+ 15:45:49 Jun: Not much further comment on this, may be relevant to SPARQL WG 15:45:52 ack ivan 15:45:59 q- 15:47:05 Ivan: (as chair of workshop) Workshop looking for position paper, identifying requirements on RDF, RDF environments, not solutions to all problems 15:48:02 Ivan: At the moment, do not have RDF WG, provenance WG; workshop to identify what work W3C should do 15:49:44 Ivan: an RDF WG would not come up with patterns, practice; but identify where W3C would coordinate where such patterns collected (e.g. XG Wiki) 15:50:06 ack Paolo 15:52:02 Paolo: workshop already achieved some of its goals in this group by triggering thinking about what activity needs to take place and where; position paper not 50 page report, we will follow with more mature document to inform future activity; this exercise should not bind us 15:52:16 ack 15:52:19 q- 15:53:37 Yolanda: Agrees with Paolo, hard enough to get this paper out, but clear in purpose 15:54:21 Yolanda: Discuss state of art in next telecon 15:55:55 Yolanda: F2F meeting: Most who will attend can be there Sunday, some continue on Monday 15:56:26 planning for technical requirements 15:56:49 Yolanda: Possibility to join by telecon, but cheaper if no one will - will send message 15:57:09 Yolanda: One topic is to converge on working definition on provenance 15:57:32 Yolanda: Another to create concept map of existing provenance systems 15:57:49 Yolanda: Patterns for provenance for user 15:58:27 Yolanda: What is the object of provenance (what is it the provenance of)? 15:59:11 the definition will take the whole day 15:59:16 :-) 15:59:59 +1 16:00:32 Yolanda: Next week, presentation on PML 16:00:55 Yolanda: Then planning state of the art 16:01:46 RRSAgent, draft minutes 16:01:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/09-prov-xg-minutes.html smiles 16:13:44 ivan has left #prov-xg 17:15:19 DeborahMcG has joined #prov-xg 18:41:39 Zakim has left #prov-xg