IRC log of ua on 2010-04-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:38:56 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:38:56 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-ua-irc
16:38:58 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:38:58 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
16:39:00 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:39:00 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 21 minutes
16:39:01 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:39:01 [trackbot]
Date: 08 April 2010
16:41:29 [kford]
Agenda+ F2F at TPAC2010: 1-5 Nov. 2010 in Lyon, France
16:41:30 [kford]
16:41:32 [kford]
Agenda+ Review survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100406/
16:41:33 [kford]
Agenda+ writing implementation 3.1.3 and 3.1.4
16:41:35 [kford]
Agenda+ writing implementation of 3.3.1
16:41:37 [kford]
Agenda+ Action-178 Focus definitions -
16:41:38 [kford]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JanMar/0135.html
16:42:02 [kford]
agenda?
16:43:01 [kford]
zakim drip item 5
16:43:09 [kford]
zakim, drop item 5
16:43:09 [Zakim]
agendum 5, Action-178 Focus definitions -, dropped
16:43:43 [kford]
Agenda+ Action-178 Focus definitions - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JanMar/0135.html
16:43:57 [kford]
agenda?
16:45:16 [AllanJ]
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16:46:22 [AllanJ]
zakim, agenda?
16:46:22 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
16:46:24 [Zakim]
1. F2F at TPAC2010: 1-5 Nov. 2010 in Lyon, France [from kford]
16:46:26 [Zakim]
2. Review survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100406/ [from kford]
16:46:29 [Zakim]
3. writing implementation 3.1.3 and 3.1.4 [from kford]
16:46:31 [Zakim]
4. writing implementation of 3.3.1 [from kford]
16:46:33 [Zakim]
6. Action-178 Focus definitions - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JanMar/0135.html [from kford]
16:46:57 [kford]
I entered the agenda
16:47:44 [Greg]
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16:59:59 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, set logs public
17:00:02 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
17:00:09 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
17:00:15 [AllanJ]
scribe: allanj
17:00:25 [kford]
Zakim: zakim, code?
17:00:33 [AllanJ]
scribenick: allanj
17:00:35 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:00:43 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
17:00:48 [sharper]
Zakim, code?
17:00:48 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), sharper
17:00:50 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.895.aaaa
17:01:07 [Zakim]
+Jim_Allan
17:01:15 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
17:01:26 [AllanJ]
zakim, aaaa is really Greg
17:01:26 [Zakim]
+Greg; got it
17:01:41 [Zakim]
+??P7
17:01:49 [sharper]
zakim, ??P7 is sharper
17:01:49 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
17:01:52 [AllanJ]
zakim, [microsoft] is really kford
17:01:52 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
17:06:28 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
17:07:20 [AllanJ]
zakim, ipcaller is really MarkH
17:07:20 [Zakim]
+MarkH; got it
17:08:27 [AllanJ]
Chair: KellyFord, JimAllan
17:08:43 [AllanJ]
zakim, agenda?
17:08:43 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
17:08:45 [Zakim]
1. F2F at TPAC2010: 1-5 Nov. 2010 in Lyon, France [from kford]
17:08:48 [Zakim]
2. Review survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100406/ [from kford]
17:08:50 [Zakim]
3. writing implementation 3.1.3 and 3.1.4 [from kford]
17:08:52 [Zakim]
4. writing implementation of 3.3.1 [from kford]
17:08:53 [Zakim]
6. Action-178 Focus definitions - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JanMar/0135.html [from kford]
17:09:03 [mhakkinen]
mhakkinen has joined #ua
17:09:28 [AllanJ]
zakim, take up item 1
17:09:28 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "F2F at TPAC2010: 1-5 Nov. 2010 in Lyon, France" taken up [from kford]
17:10:36 [AllanJ]
js: discussion of f2f in lyon. deadline in april 16
17:11:01 [AllanJ]
kf: poses question?
17:11:46 [kford]
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17:11:53 [AllanJ]
gl: how many can go, how much work without a quorum
17:12:08 [AllanJ]
sh: will be in orlando.
17:12:36 [AllanJ]
kf: put on list and resolve for next week.
17:13:01 [AllanJ]
gl: also conference calling.
17:13:34 [AllanJ]
action: js to write to list about f2f
17:13:34 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-343 - Write to list about f2f [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-04-15].
17:13:54 [AllanJ]
kf: who can go
17:14:22 [AllanJ]
jim, mark, jeanne, greg, kelly(?)
17:14:38 [Zakim]
+KimPatch
17:15:23 [AllanJ]
action-343 closed
17:15:23 [trackbot]
ACTION-343 Write to list about f2f closed
17:16:29 [AllanJ]
sh: if meeting in later part of week, could call in.
17:16:58 [AllanJ]
action: jallan to complete f2f survey
17:16:58 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-344 - Complete f2f survey [on Jim Allan - due 2010-04-15].
17:17:13 [AllanJ]
zakim, close item 1
17:17:13 [Zakim]
agendum 1, F2F at TPAC2010: 1-5 Nov. 2010 in Lyon, France, closed
17:17:14 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:17:14 [KimPatch]
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17:17:15 [Zakim]
2. Review survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100406/ [from kford]
17:17:38 [AllanJ]
zakim, takeup item 2
17:17:38 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'takeup item 2', AllanJ
17:17:46 [AllanJ]
zakim, take up item 2
17:17:46 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Review survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100406/" taken up [from kford]
17:18:06 [AllanJ]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100406/results
17:20:43 [AllanJ]
discussion of 3.3.2 (AA)
17:21:04 [AllanJ]
gl: needs work, not understandable.
17:21:53 [AllanJ]
sh: if UA generates internal representation to display, it needs to share with the user or AT
17:22:20 [AllanJ]
gl: how is this to be exposed. some alternative interface?
17:23:26 [AllanJ]
sh: if some internal representation not in the dom, the UA generates some representation, needs to expose it.
17:23:44 [AllanJ]
mh: exposed how? example
17:24:24 [AllanJ]
sh: could put in the dom. some plugins don't have a dom, but could put it in the html dom
17:24:48 [AllanJ]
gl: exposing for AT not visually
17:25:38 [AllanJ]
sh: yes for AT, so the visual representation is exposed to the AT
17:26:52 [AllanJ]
...music files, just flat information separated by colon or dash. when open in winamp the player creates a navigable structure based on title, author, length, etc.
17:28:26 [kford]
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17:28:58 [Greg]
Sounds like Simon intends this to mean that any hierarchical relationship rendered visually must be exposed programmatically. It can be exposed via the DOM or other means. This applies to relationships that the UA works out on its own as well those that are specified in the source document.
17:29:32 [Greg]
(I should have said "rendered" rather than "rendered visually".)
17:29:35 [AllanJ]
sh: html5 allows new datatypes or semantics needs to expose
17:29:59 [AllanJ]
action: sh to rewrite 3.3.2 (include canvas example)
17:29:59 [trackbot]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - sh
17:29:59 [trackbot]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. sharper, shayes)
17:30:14 [AllanJ]
action: sharper to rewrite 3.3.2 (include canvas example)
17:30:15 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-345 - Rewrite 3.3.2 (include canvas example) [on Simon Harper - due 2010-04-15].
17:30:27 [AllanJ]
topic: proposal 3.6.1
17:31:51 [kford]
Patrick comment the distinction between option and ability here is going in the right direction, but i fear that still means that a browser/UA needs to effectively have
17:31:52 [kford]
to be able to do the opposite (i.e. keep size of rendered text the same, regardless of scaling) which again i don't think is implemented. the current behaviour
17:31:54 [kford]
(that by default size distinction is maintained on rescaling) is default, so saying that the user has the ability also seems to imply that we'd want this
17:31:56 [kford]
default behaviour to be switchable? 
17:31:58 [kford]
Kelly Ford
17:32:40 [AllanJ]
kf: what does this mean?
17:35:40 [AllanJ]
gl: when you want to make the small text big, the big text can become too big to be unusable
17:38:03 [AllanJ]
mh: if I look at 3.6.2 in isolation - 'preserved distinctions' does the user also have the ability to NOT preserve disctintions
17:38:46 [AllanJ]
mh: need some statement to remove all distinctions based on size
17:39:00 [AllanJ]
gl: in the SC or implementation
17:40:35 [AllanJ]
mh: in the SC. how important to remove distinctions.
17:40:53 [AllanJ]
gl: this is covered in 3.6.x in the survey.
17:41:22 [AllanJ]
mh: need to clarify in intent about setting min/max to be the same to remove distinctions
17:42:14 [AllanJ]
kf: there is zoom (scale everything) and textsize (scale only text)
17:43:40 [AllanJ]
kf: can set base text size.3.6.2 is important. distinctions are important. how important is setting everything to same size.
17:44:45 [AllanJ]
gl: if low vision, then headings will be too large to read
17:45:18 [AllanJ]
JA: also implementation issues. does any browser do this---all one font size?
17:45:52 [AllanJ]
kf: back to original 3.6.2. if in isolation, MH you ok with it.
17:47:38 [AllanJ]
kf: gl wording change
17:47:45 [KimPatch]
I think within is clearer
17:49:02 [AllanJ]
action: js to add "3.6.2 Preserve Distinctions: The user has the ability to preserve distinctions in the size of rendered text when that text is rescaled (e.g., headers continue to be larger than body text) within absolute limitations imposed by the platform. (Level A)" to draft
17:49:02 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-346 - Add "3.6.2 Preserve Distinctions: The user has the ability to preserve distinctions in the size of rendered text when that text is rescaled (e.g., headers continue to be larger than body text) within absolute limitations imposed by the platform. (Level A)" to draft [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-04-15].
17:49:22 [AllanJ]
action: gl to write IER for 3.6.2
17:49:22 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-347 - Write IER for 3.6.2 [on Greg Lowney - due 2010-04-15].
17:49:32 [AllanJ]
topic: 3.6.x
17:51:21 [AllanJ]
kf: want user to have ability to remove disctintions
17:52:05 [AllanJ]
gl: new wording is more flexible allows setting of min/max
17:53:30 [AllanJ]
js: different between base in percentages, the jump in size is greater as you get larger
17:54:19 [AllanJ]
kf: objections from 3.6.2 are related 3.6.x
17:55:01 [AllanJ]
kf: should this be a AAA.
17:55:53 [AllanJ]
gl: would prefer AA, but can live with the group decision.
17:56:34 [AllanJ]
mh: ok with it as a AA. explain issues in the intent and it would address my concerns
17:58:30 [AllanJ]
action: ja to write to the list about 3.6.x address concerns in the implementation
17:58:30 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-348 - Write to the list about 3.6.x address concerns in the implementation [on Jim Allan - due 2010-04-15].
17:58:59 [AllanJ]
topic: 3.8.1
18:00:02 [AllanJ]
gl: my comments are to add clarity
18:01:31 [AllanJ]
mh: see where it would fit.
18:02:52 [kford]
zakim, take up item 3
18:02:52 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "writing implementation 3.1.3 and 3.1.4" taken up [from kford]
18:03:17 [AllanJ]
action: JS add 3.8.1 IER "The objective of these success criteria is to allow the user to customize the specified speech characteristics to settings that allow the user to perceive and understand the audio information.
18:03:17 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-349 - Add 3.8.1 IER "The objective of these success criteria is to allow the user to customize the specified speech characteristics to settings that allow the user to perceive and understand the audio information. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-04-15].
18:03:19 [AllanJ]
Users may need to increase the volume to a level within their range of perception for example. Users may also wish to increase the rate of synthesized speech presentation because they can understand it at a rate faster than the default setting of the user agent.
18:03:20 [AllanJ]
Success criterion 3.8.1 covers the characteristics that users most commonly need to adjust and that are adjustable in most technologies, while success criterion 3.8.2 covers characteristics that are less widely altered and less widely supported.
18:03:22 [AllanJ]
to implementation draft.
18:05:44 [AllanJ]
new porpses 3.1.3 3.1.3 Choose and Render Alternative Content: The user can determine which forms of alternative content are available for an element, select between them, and have them rendered according to the following…synchronized alternatives for time-based media (e.g., captions, audio descriptions, sign language) can be rendered at the same time as their associated audio tracks and...
18:05:46 [AllanJ]
...visual tracks, and
18:05:47 [AllanJ]
non-synchronized alternatives (e.g., short text alternatives, long descriptions) can be rendered as replacements for the original rendered content.”.
18:06:25 [AllanJ]
s/porpses/proposal
18:06:37 [AllanJ]
kf: any objections?
18:06:40 [AllanJ]
none
18:07:11 [AllanJ]
action: js to update 3.1.3 to be "synchronized alternatives for time-based media (e.g., captions, audio descriptions, sign language) can be rendered at the same time as their associated audio tracks and visual tracks, and
18:07:11 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-350 - Update 3.1.3 to be "synchronized alternatives for time-based media (e.g., captions, audio descriptions, sign language) can be rendered at the same time as their associated audio tracks and visual tracks, and [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-04-15].
18:07:12 [AllanJ]
non-synchronized alternatives (e.g., short text alternatives, long descriptions) can be rendered as replacements for the original rendered content.
18:09:40 [AllanJ]
action: gl to write IER for 3.1.3
18:09:40 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-351 - Write IER for 3.1.3 [on Greg Lowney - due 2010-04-15].
18:09:49 [kford]
zakim, taie up item 4
18:09:49 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'taie up item 4', kford
18:09:57 [kford]
zakim, take up item 4
18:09:57 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "writing implementation of 3.3.1" taken up [from kford]
18:10:06 [AllanJ]
action: ja to write IER for 3.1.4 (modify 3.1.2)
18:10:06 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-352 - Write IER for 3.1.4 (modify 3.1.2) [on Jim Allan - due 2010-04-15].
18:11:07 [AllanJ]
gl: can not understand this?
18:11:35 [Greg]
Not sure what this is supposed to mean. Is it saying that the UA has to always keep the column header in view, even when the user is scrolling down through a table? The same with a heading elements (h1, etc.)?
18:13:03 [AllanJ]
action: kf to write IER for 3.3.1
18:13:03 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-353 - Write IER for 3.3.1 [on Kelly Ford - due 2010-04-15].
18:13:30 [kford]
zakim, take up item 5
18:13:30 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Action-178 Focus definitions -" taken up [from kford]
18:13:42 [kford]
zakim, close item 5
18:13:42 [Zakim]
agendum 5, Action-178 Focus definitions -, closed
18:13:43 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:13:45 [Zakim]
2. Review survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100406/ [from kford]
18:13:56 [kford]
zakim, close item 2
18:13:56 [Zakim]
agendum 2, Review survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100406/, closed
18:13:58 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:13:59 [Zakim]
3. writing implementation 3.1.3 and 3.1.4 [from kford]
18:14:03 [kford]
zakim close item 3
18:14:20 [kford]
zakim close item 3
18:14:30 [kford]
zakim, take up item 6
18:14:30 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "Action-178 Focus definitions - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JanMar/0135.html" taken up [from kford]
18:14:45 [AllanJ]
zakim, close item 3
18:14:45 [Zakim]
agendum 3, writing implementation 3.1.3 and 3.1.4, closed
18:14:45 [kford]
zakim, close item 3
18:14:46 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:14:48 [Zakim]
4. writing implementation of 3.3.1 [from kford]
18:14:50 [Zakim]
agendum 3, writing implementation 3.1.3 and 3.1.4, closed
18:14:51 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:14:53 [Zakim]
4. writing implementation of 3.3.1 [from kford]
18:14:59 [AllanJ]
zakim, close item 4
18:14:59 [Zakim]
agendum 4, writing implementation of 3.3.1, closed
18:15:01 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
18:15:03 [Zakim]
6. Action-178 Focus definitions - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JanMar/0135.html [from kford]
18:16:54 [AllanJ]
kim: regularized definitions. some may go away. need to review the document to make sure the words in SC and GL match definitions
18:17:33 [AllanJ]
... also added new defintions, and normalized with ISO and ANSI definitions
18:18:53 [AllanJ]
kf: need a survey for comments, then review document to reconcile
18:20:16 [AllanJ]
action: ja to put http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JanMar/0135.html in survey for next week
18:20:16 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-354 - Put http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JanMar/0135.html in survey for next week [on Jim Allan - due 2010-04-15].
18:21:31 [Zakim]
-MarkH
18:21:33 [Zakim]
-kford
18:21:33 [Zakim]
-sharper
18:21:35 [Zakim]
-Jim_Allan
18:21:36 [Zakim]
-KimPatch
18:21:38 [Zakim]
-Greg
18:21:57 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:21:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-ua-minutes.html AllanJ
18:23:44 [sharper]
sharper has left #ua
18:24:22 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
18:24:23 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
18:24:25 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.425.895.aaaa, Jim_Allan, Jeanne, Greg, sharper, kford, MarkH, KimPatch
18:24:28 [mhakkinen]
mhakkinen has left #ua
18:24:40 [jeanne]
jeanne has left #ua
18:25:10 [AllanJ]
zakim, please part
18:25:10 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
18:25:26 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
18:25:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-ua-minutes.html AllanJ
18:25:50 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, please part
18:25:50 [RRSAgent]
I see 13 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-ua-actions.rdf :
18:25:50 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: js to write to list about f2f [1]
18:25:50 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-ua-irc#T17-13-34
18:25:50 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jallan to complete f2f survey [2]
18:25:50 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-ua-irc#T17-16-58
18:25:50 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: sh to rewrite 3.3.2 (include canvas example) [3]
18:25:50 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-ua-irc#T17-29-59
18:25:50 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: sharper to rewrite 3.3.2 (include canvas example) [4]
18:25:50 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-ua-irc#T17-30-14
18:25:50 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: js to add "3.6.2 Preserve Distinctions: The user has the ability to preserve distinctions in the size of rendered text when that text is rescaled (e.g., headers continue to be larger than body text) within absolute limitations imposed by the platform. (Level A)" to draft [5]
18:25:50 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-ua-irc#T17-49-02
18:25:50 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: gl to write IER for 3.6.2 [6]
18:25:50 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-ua-irc#T17-49-22
18:25:50 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ja to write to the list about 3.6.x address concerns in the implementation [7]
18:25:50 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-ua-irc#T17-58-30
18:25:50 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS add 3.8.1 IER "The objective of these success criteria is to allow the user to customize the specified speech characteristics to settings that allow the user to perceive and understand the audio information. [8]
18:25:50 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-ua-irc#T18-03-17
18:25:50 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: js to update 3.1.3 to be "synchronized alternatives for time-based media (e.g., captions, audio descriptions, sign language) can be rendered at the same time as their associated audio tracks and visual tracks, and [9]
18:25:50 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-ua-irc#T18-07-11
18:25:50 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: gl to write IER for 3.1.3 [10]
18:25:50 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-ua-irc#T18-09-40
18:25:50 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ja to write IER for 3.1.4 (modify 3.1.2) [11]
18:25:50 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-ua-irc#T18-10-06
18:25:50 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: kf to write IER for 3.3.1 [12]
18:25:50 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-ua-irc#T18-13-03
18:25:50 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ja to put http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JanMar/0135.html in survey for next week [13]
18:25:50 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-ua-irc#T18-20-16