19:02:19 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
19:02:19 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-svg-irc
19:02:21 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
19:02:21 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #svg
19:02:23 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
19:02:23 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()4:00PM scheduled to start in 58 minutes
19:02:24 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
19:02:24 <trackbot> Date: 08 April 2010
19:09:45 <shepazu> Zakim, call shepazu 
19:09:45 <Zakim> ok, shepazu; the call is being made
19:52:23 <ed> ed has joined #svg
19:58:56 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()4:00PM has now started
19:59:03 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
19:59:15 <patrickd> patrickd has joined #svg
19:59:57 <ed> trackbot, start telcon
19:59:59 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
20:00:01 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
20:00:01 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see GA_SVGWG()4:00PM already started
20:00:02 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:00:02 <trackbot> Date: 08 April 2010
20:00:44 <Zakim> +Shepazu
20:00:55 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:01:02 <ed> Zakim, [IP is me
20:01:02 <Zakim> +ed; got it
20:02:52 <ed> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Agenda#for_telcon_2010-04-08
20:08:19 <patrickd> scribenick:patrickd
20:08:40 <patrickd> scribekick: patrickd
20:08:48 <patrickd> scribenick: patrickd
20:09:19 <patrickd> shepazu: Patrick asked about SVGZoom
20:11:03 <Zakim> +ChrisL
20:11:10 <patrickd> patrickd: I got my issues resolved; the issue with firefox was a bug
20:11:11 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #svg
20:11:41 <patrickd> patrickd: But there is an issue that was raised around SVG in XHTML
20:12:01 <patrickd> shepazu: The root most SVG element is the root most element of which the current SVG fragment is a child
20:12:17 <patrickd> shepazu: consider SVG>XHTML>SVG
20:12:37 <patrickd> shepazu: Consider XHTML>SVG>SVG
20:12:47 <ChrisL> xhtml > svg1 > svg2
20:12:58 <ChrisL> svg1 is the rootmost
20:13:42 <patrickd> patrickd: Should SVGZoom fire on every SVG element?
20:14:10 <shepazu> html1 > svg1 > html2 > svg2
20:14:15 <patrickd> shepazu: Zoom should fire on the rootmost element.
20:14:20 <shepazu> svg1 > svg2
20:15:17 <patrickd> ChrisL: The basic thing is that the rootmost is the only thing that fires.
20:17:20 <shepazu> html1 > svg1 > html2 > svg2 > svg3
20:17:45 <patrickd> ChrisL: in xhtml>svg1>sg2, svg2 starts a document fragment, but that is wholy contained in SVG1; SVG1 should only fire
20:18:39 <patrickd> ChrisL: In the case of html1> svg1> html2 > svg2 would fire for both SVG1&2
20:19:23 <patrickd> ChrisL: If they are nested, they are still separate, they both fire.
20:19:40 <patrickd> shepazu: In the case when you html2> svg1 > html2> svg2 >svg3
20:19:50 <ed> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/interact.html#ZoomEvent 
20:19:55 <ChrisL> if they are nested without intervening other-ns stuff, only the rootmost one fires
20:20:04 <patrickd> shepazu: If I did something to zoom in on svg3, it would fire on svg2
20:20:05 <patrickd> ChrisL: right
20:20:35 <ed> and http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/script.html#InterfaceSVGZoomEvent
20:21:42 <patrickd> ed: changing currentScale fires zoomEvent
20:21:54 <patrickd> shepazu: Both UA zooming and script will fire the zoomEvent
20:22:57 <ed> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/struct.html#__svg__SVGSVGElement__currentScale
20:25:33 <patrickd> shepazu: Differentiate zoom and magnify from the UA messaging perspective
20:26:03 <patrickd> ChrisL: So even if to the user a command is noted as zoom in both cases, the UA needs to differentiate between an SVGZoom and a magnify
20:26:43 <patrickd> shepazu: There is a new spec coming from the web apps WG dealing with touch,etc; around guestures (i.e. pinch).  So this will be likely sorted out there (magnify vs. zoom)
20:27:43 <patrickd> shepazu: from a UA perspective, if I were using flash, and I see flash, and i right-click on flash, it would only zoom in the flash.  It should be the same experience for SVG.   
20:29:00 <patrickd> shepazu: There is an oustanding bug in Firefox resolved as won't fix, that says we don't want to get special zoom capability to users in SVG documents; we think that behavior is wrong.
20:30:29 <patrickd> ed: It is not well defined what happens when SVG and XHTML are mixed
20:31:28 <ed> s/It is not well defined what happens when SVG and XHTML are mixed/what happens when you set currentScale on a nested svg element is explicitly undefined in svg1.1f2/
20:31:40 <patrickd> issue: Add section to SVG 2.0 specification to disambiguate zoom and maginify as well as handle use cases of nesting and mixed content
20:31:40 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-2319 - Add section to SVG 2.0 specification to disambiguate zoom and maginify as well as handle use cases of nesting and mixed content ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2319/edit .
20:33:18 <patrickd> ChrisL: In the case of <foreignObject> in SVG, the HTML window would respond as if CSS had adjusted it's dimension
20:34:37 <patrickd> shepazu: I personally think that it would zoom in; there are potentially use cases for both
20:35:50 <patrickd> ed:  A couple of items left over after previous telecons: syntax of negative values in points; 
20:35:55 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2314
20:36:54 <patrickd> ed: Should we fix this in the 1.12nd edition or move to SVG 2.0
20:37:04 <patrickd> shepazu: We should do this in SVG 2.0
20:37:14 <patrickd> patrickd: Right now, -100-100 is not allowed
20:37:37 <patrickd> ed: Right, it is not allowed
20:37:56 <ed> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/shapes.html#PointsBNF
20:39:22 <ed> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/paths.html#PathDataBNF
20:40:31 <patrickd> patrickd: Should we fix the language in 2nd edition; 
20:40:35 <patrickd> ChrisL: Is it currently allowed
20:40:57 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Mar/0050.html
20:41:05 <patrickd> ed: It is currently supported by opera, webkit support this, but not some others
20:41:37 <ed> s/webkit/webkit and ie9/
20:44:55 <patrickd> ChrisL: The BNF for path doesn't say you can leave out a whitespace, yet all implementations support this
20:46:04 <patrickd> shepazu: This is a question of which spec to define this in; this is the right behavior
20:48:07 <patrickd> ChrisL: Probably could adjust the existing BNF using the existing language
20:48:17 <patrickd> shepazu: Do we want to use BNF?
20:49:48 <patrickd> ChrisL: We would ideally have a set of tools to compress and/or expand to determine whether it is real or not and express it in a form for brevity or readability
20:51:03 <patrickd> action: chrisl to Respond to Jeff's message on the BNF issue, how to address it in 2.0 as well as request recommendations on alternate forms 
20:51:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2752 - Respond to Jeff's message on the BNF issue, how to address it in 2.0 as well as request recommendations on alternate forms  [on Chris Lilley - due 2010-04-15].
20:51:42 <patrickd> ed: How do we resolve this going forward?
20:51:51 <patrickd> ChrisL: Allow for common behavior in both
20:52:10 <patrickd> ed: Do we want to fix this in 2nd edition or 2.0
20:52:41 <patrickd> ChrisL: Depends on how hard it is is to fix the BNF; if it is changing it for a different grammar, let's push to 2.0
20:53:03 <patrickd> ed: Alternative is to fix it in text and give direction on combining the two
20:54:01 <patrickd> action: ChrisL to Investigate BNF fix for path and pologyon commonality and see if it is easier to fix 2nd edition spec or move to 2.0 spec
20:54:01 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2753 - Investigate BNF fix for path and pologyon commonality and see if it is easier to fix 2nd edition spec or move to 2.0 spec [on Chris Lilley - due 2010-04-15].
20:54:30 <patrickd> ed: Should provide test for the solution for this as well
20:54:35 <ed> "10.2.4.5" what does it parse as?
20:54:41 <ed> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/paths.html#PathDataBNF
20:56:03 <patrickd> ed: There was a similar issue raised for elliptical arc
20:56:04 <ChrisL> so we need two test for polyline then, one with missing space 100-200 and one for concatenated decimals 0.2.3
20:56:08 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Apr/0006.html
20:59:09 <patrickd> ed: We should allow for skipping of space and comma between largeArcFlag and the sweepFlag
20:59:47 <patrickd> ed: Instead of ', *wsp' it should be ',wsp?'
20:59:49 <ed> so change elliptical-arc-argument to become this:
20:59:49 <ed>     nonnegative-number comma-wsp? nonnegative-number comma-wsp? 
20:59:50 <ed>         number comma-wsp flag comma-wsp? flag comma-wsp coordinate-pair
21:03:01 <patrickd> action: ed to Change language in language around largeArc and sweepArc to allow for skipping of white space and comma, write test case, and communicate back to Jeff
21:03:02 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2754 - Change language in language around largeArc and sweepArc to allow for skipping of white space and comma, write test case, and communicate back to Jeff [on Erik Dahlström - due 2010-04-15].
21:04:12 <patrickd> ed: There was a questoin about handling out of range values
21:04:34 <ed> Topic: Handling of out-of-range values in SVG DOM http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Mar/0053.html
21:05:08 <Zakim> +??P3
21:05:20 <anthony> Zakim, ??P3 is me
21:05:20 <Zakim> +anthony; got it
21:07:05 <ChrisL> close ACTION-2752
21:07:05 <trackbot> ACTION-2752 Respond to Jeff's message on the BNF issue, how to address it in 2.0 as well as request recommendations on alternate forms closed
21:07:23 <ed> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.1F2/publish/coords.html#InterfaceSVGPreserveAspectRatio
21:12:33 <ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGTiny12/svgudom.html#FloatValues (just checking if there was anything said on negative values in 1.2T)
21:13:27 <patrickd> shepazu: SHouldn't be an error
21:13:55 <patrickd> shepazu: Shouldn't halt rendering
21:14:22 <patrickd> ChrisL: Errors in SVG 1.1 are different from parsing errors in XML
21:14:39 <patrickd> ChrisL: Document can go in and out of error over time
21:14:55 <patrickd> ChrisL: If it's a parsing error it should halt right there
21:17:14 <patrickd> ed: Probably more correct to throw an exception; would lean towards this, but not for a negative value, but for an out of range value, and keep the old value
21:18:36 <patrickd> ed: Also for negative (which are out of range)
21:19:32 <patrickd> action: patrickd to Correct SVGPreserveAspectRatio out of range language to reflect that the error should be raised and the value should be preserved when an invalid value is set
21:19:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2755 - Correct SVGPreserveAspectRatio out of range language to reflect that the error should be raised and the value should be preserved when an invalid value is set [on Patrick Dengler - due 2010-04-15].
21:25:30 <patrickd> ChrisL: Face-to-Face meeting; we will shorten this from 24th to 31st.  Patrick will get a room for the Monday the 24th.
21:26:02 <patrickd> ChrisL: Then folks can go to LGM in between (no conference fee)
21:29:54 <ed> elm.href.baseVal = "newurl"
21:30:31 <ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/types.html#InterfaceSVGAnimatedString
21:39:25 <patrickd> shepazu: We are thinking that we don't want to distrub setattribute or setattributeNS
21:40:14 <patrickd> shepazu: Now we are thinking that  href takes precendence over xlink:href; there is no mirroring of the values; and that there should be a propperty setter, href, that sets the href property and not xlink:href
21:42:52 <patrickd> anthony: Might need a new time for conf call as winter here or there is not necessarily winter there
21:44:10 <patrickd> shepazu: We want it either 5 hours earlier or 2 hours later
21:44:45 <patrickd> shepazu: let's move it to 5 hours earlier
21:47:04 <patrickd> shepazu: Move it 5.5 hours earlier Mon/Thurs
21:48:08 <patrickd> shepazu: This conflicts with ODF call 
21:49:24 <patrickd> shepazu: Actually 5.5 hours is OK.  Somone will type the UTC time
21:49:41 <patrickd> shepazu: 14:30 UTC
21:51:00 <patrickd> trackbot, end telecon
21:51:00 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
21:51:00 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been [Microsoft], Shepazu, [IPcaller], ed, ChrisL, anthony
21:51:01 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
21:51:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-svg-minutes.html trackbot
21:51:02 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
21:51:02 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-svg-actions.rdf :
21:51:02 <RRSAgent> ACTION: chrisl to Respond to Jeff's message on the BNF issue, how to address it in 2.0 as well as request recommendations on alternate forms  [1]
21:51:02 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-svg-irc#T20-51-03
21:51:02 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ChrisL to Investigate BNF fix for path and pologyon commonality and see if it is easier to fix 2nd edition spec or move to 2.0 spec [2]
21:51:02 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-svg-irc#T20-54-01
21:51:02 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ed to Change language in language around largeArc and sweepArc to allow for skipping of white space and comma, write test case, and communicate back to Jeff [3]
21:51:02 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-svg-irc#T21-03-01
21:51:02 <RRSAgent> ACTION: patrickd to Correct SVGPreserveAspectRatio out of range language to reflect that the error should be raised and the value should be preserved when an invalid value is set [4]
21:51:02 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/08-svg-irc#T21-19-32
21:51:29 <Zakim> -ed