<trackbot> Date: 07 April 2010

<hhalpin> Anyone want to scribe?

<hhalpin> Ronald?

i can try

im having phone issues

please state who is talking when you talk

1. Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2010-04-07

can i do like half the scribing?

<hhalpin> scribe: rreck

<melvster> danja: could you be +39.058.368.aaff ?

<danja> oops

<mischat> Zakim: 0798919aagg is me

it helps if people say who they are when they speak

but i wont be able to tell, which is my second biggest problem

<MacTed> ping

<melvster> ping

<mischat> hello

yes

<tpa> yes

<hhalpin> PROPOSED: to approve [10]SWXG WG Weekly -- 31 March 2010 as a true record

<hhalpin> hmm...can't find minutes URI.

<hhalpin> Will put fixing that on next agenda.

<hhalpin> PROPOSED: to meet again Wed. April 14th

+1 meet again

<hhalpin> Policy languages or tagging

<mischat> +1

halpin: update on w3c meeting discussing social web

<mischat> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-socialweb/2010Apr/0001.html

<mischat> harry's email sent round today ^^

halpin: meetings with google and...
... need to clean up action items

Action Reminders

halpin: or purge them
... adam not here

<mischat> the minutes for last meeting, doesn't seem to resolve : http://www.w3.org/2010/10/03-swxg-minutes.html

halpin: cant purge it

<hhalpin> mischa?

<hhalpin> not sure if they have evolved...

missed that

<hhalpin> micha: to make a git repository with terms and conditions to see if terms and conditions and changed.

<hhalpin> So we'll keep this open?

<hhalpin> Yes.

<mischat> yes

3. Final Report Update

<hhalpin> We did get our charter extension...

halpin: had charter extended
... but we need to create draft final report
... due at the end of this month
... lets talk about this for 10-15 minutes then future speakers

lets do business first

<petef> +1 for final report first

me too

christine: lets do final report, im not on irc

halpin: christines document is nice

<hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/SocialWebFrameworks

<hhalpin> thanks christine!

christine: the idea was to contribute this to the final report and is in the public domain

<hhalpin> new version?

<hhalpin> new version on wiki?

christine: there is a slightly improved version, any part anywhere is appropriate

<hhalpin> ACTION: hhalpin to email Renato and Christine to take into final document [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-swxg-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-133 - Email Renato and Christine to take into final document [on Harry Halpin - due 2010-04-14].

christine: there is a change in vocabulary base on feedback

halpin: we need landscape overview

<hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/OneLiners

<mischat> perhaps http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/DiscussionTopics

<hhalpin> Hmm...looking for other wikis.

christine: can we contrast different landscapes in the final report

halpin: final report can link to other documents but it should be self contained

<hhalpin> visual picture of how the various standards fit together?

<hhalpin> literal lanscape picture

<hhalpin> there references then to the other pages/code/

i dont hear anything except myself

my irc is beeping, do you hear that?

<mischat> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/SN_Platform_Functionality

<mischat> nothing there

<hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/SN_Platform_Functionality

christine: what parts are needed?

<hhalpin> landscape and picture is needed?

halpin: landscape document

<hhalpin> does anyone want to take that on?

halpin: i can help but need a point person

<mischat> perhaps I could help with picture

<petef> I could help with the picture

thanks guys

<mischat> yay petef

<mischat> !

<petef> yay mischat

<hhalpin> ACTION: petef to help make picture of landscape [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-swxg-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - petef

<hhalpin> ACTION: pferne to help make picture of landscape [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-swxg-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-134 - Help make picture of landscape [on Peter Ferne - due 2010-04-14].

<hhalpin> acki mischat

christine: will we have usecases in final report?

<hhalpin> the latter, the technology space.

mischat: technologies in landscape picture?

<petef> I assume that too

<petef> Please do hhalpin

<petef> forward those diagrams

<hhalpin> use-case document

<mischat> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories

<hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories

<hhalpin> tpa? is that latest version?

<tpa> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/RequirementsAndUseCases-WorkArea

<mischat> :)

<mischat> wow

im missing some stuff, sorry

trim narrative

some talk about refining document

christine: put some stuff in appendix?

<hhalpin> its pretty solid.

halpin: how many people know W3C web architecture document?

<hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/

<hhalpin> well, anything with a URI is a resource

<hhalpin> so that would include text, profiles, video, audio

<hhalpin> anything that has a URI as is retrievved by HTTP GET

<hhalpin> video/audio/etc. etc. are actually media types

<hhalpin> Uploading, publishing user-generated text (blog post) with or without tags

<hhalpin> Uploading, publishing user-generated images (photos) with or without tags

<hhalpin> Uploading, publishing any user-generated resource with or without tags

christine: set size and simplify

<hhalpin> boil it down to a dozen...

<mischat> hhalpin: are the invited talks going to be included in the final report ?

<hhalpin> yes, the invited talks need to be summarized somewhat.

<hhalpin> maybe some headings?

<hhalpin> in section 3

<hhalpin> I would say only a few sentences.

two ways to do this... summary of each lvl 2 section

extracting important stories as a sample

<mischat> section 3 headings : http://mmt.me.uk/p/hVhvzh

i dont know who is talking

<mischat> rreck: that is tpa

ty

halpin: three main stories
... final report will have entire usecase document
... 2 or 3 sentences as summaries, bullet points

<hhalpin> 10 bullet point with 2-3 sentences

<hhalpin> and choose 2-3 stories

tpa: 1-2 lines on each story

<mischat> which stories ? these ones ? http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories

halpin: agreed that is fine
... its due at the end of the month
... dont add more but look at the ones we have done

<hhalpin> ACTION: tpa to write 2-3 sentences for each story [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-swxg-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - tpa

<hhalpin> ACTION: tanglade to write 2-3 sentences for each story [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-swxg-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-135 - Write 2-3 sentences for each story [on Tim Anglade - due 2010-04-14].

tpa: a lot of work went into some of them but may not be useful as it is

christine: i will be back up editor, i have to leave the call now

halpin: w3c is looking for ...have technologies the exist interested in standarization?

<mischat> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/InvitedGuests

<hhalpin> ACTION: hhalpin to re-email some of the invited talk people on possible future standardizati [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-swxg-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-136 - Re-email some of the invited talk people on possible future standardizati [on Harry Halpin - due 2010-04-14].

tpa: what is the format of final report?

halpin: its loose

tpa: on the wiki?

halpin: on wiki or...

<hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/FinalReport

<hhalpin> here's a draft page to start cut and pasting things.

<hhalpin> and I have automated scripts...

<hhalpin> let's just cut and paste stuff into this page.

tpa: is there an outline?

halpin: problem, definition
... usecase, technology landscape

<hhalpin> I think it should go 1) Problem 2) Definitions 3) Use-Cases 4) Technology Landscape 5) Future Standardization

<hhalpin> I'm happy to focus on 4) and 5)

<hhalpin> Tim takes on 3)

<hhalpin> 1) and 2) fairly straightforward manner

halpin: do people feel comfortable?

<hhalpin> which we have about 3 weeks to finish

silence

<hhalpin> :)

<mischat> +1 to comfortable

halpin: w3c wants to be more....

future of w3c and rdf

<hhalpin> make some of the standard more lightweight and agile

more lightweight

<hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/QA/2010/02/date_and_place_of_the_rdf_next.html

<hhalpin> http://www.w3.org/2009/12/rdf-ws/

<hhalpin> This tension in the XG and the general landscape

<hhalpin> between RDF, XMPP, and Atom as the baseline data format.

<hhalpin> for social web work.

<mischat> mmm is xmpp is a data format ?

<hhalpin> Chris Messina activity streams - why he chose Atom and Pubsubhub?

<hhalpin> XEP and Pubsubhubhub for realtime updating

<danja> http://activitystrea.ms/

<hhalpin> lost a lot of people?

<danja> grr

<hhalpin> what happened there.

<tpa> woah, holy phone split batman

<hhalpin> we'll hold on...

<hhalpin> I'll just keep up in IRC

<hhalpin> anyways, there was definite interest in improving the RDF and Atom story, perhaps using Atom as some sort of RDF syntax

<mischat> that could go into section 5 perhaps

<tpa> http://machinesplusminds.blogspot.com/2010/04/ietf-and-membership-via-corporation.html

<hhalpin> thanks!

halpin: membership discuss about alternatives

<hhalpin> http://www.odata.org/

<mischat> ")

<hhalpin> Odata work by Microsoft?

<hhalpin> Open Data format

<hhalpin> which is seemingly a sort of alternative to RDF

<mischat> lovely, very similar, they even have bnodie type things

<hhalpin> Make a connection between Atom and RDF world

<danja> http://bblfish.net/work/atom-owl/2006-06-06/AtomOwl.html

<danja> http://djpowell.net/blog/entries/Atom-RDF.html

<hhalpin> http://activitystrea.ms/spec/1.0/atom-activity-01.html

<hhalpin> Activity-Streams spec

i can hear, but im lost

<hhalpin> pubsubhub spec

<hhalpin> http://pubsubhubbub.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/pubsubhubbub-core-0.3.html

danja: said a ton of stuff

<hhalpin> rreck - just try your best

<danja> sorry!

<hhalpin> let's model Atom *inside* RDF

<mischat> there has been lots of work in the atom world, and the pubhubsub world

<hhalpin> to a model of Atom

<hhalpin> the other is to look at Atom itself as a way of serializing RDF.

<hhalpin> and providing updates to changes in triple-stores

<hhalpin> RSS 1.0 to do that

halpin: user has action

<hhalpin> user [action] possibly on a [subject]

<hhalpin> and that at least in [actions] are given URIs.

<hhalpin> but you can imagine being given URIs.

sound reasonable to me

<hhalpin> RDF/XML

<mischat> danbri has been working on sparql over xmpp to update triplestore

<danja> (in activity streams)

<danja> oops - further up

<hhalpin> to go with IETF over W3C?

<hhalpin> link mischat?

danja: W#C might be accused of being heavy handed and forcing the use of RDF

<mischat> http://danbri.org/words/2008/02/11/278

danja: work out mapping of RDF and ATOM

<mischat> i recall a atom+rdfa work

danja: seems like low hanging fruit

<hhalpin> atom+rdfa?

<mischat> http://www.slideshare.net/danbri/wai-talk-xmpp

<hhalpin> I've seen DataRSS work...

<mischat> danbri talking sparql + xmpp --- i think there is working code somewhere

<hhalpin> O'Reilly codezoo...RDF as payload in Atom.

<danbri> yeah, i think steve has something

<mischat> yeah steve does too

<mischat> danbri: do you have links to rdfa+atom ?

<hhalpin> big difference between having RDFa and RDF/XML in payload.

<hhalpin> I guess RDF into Atom as possible.

<hhalpin> RDF model in Atom as possible.

<hhalpin> named-valued pairs

<mischat> harry asks, does anyone have any ideas around making RDF easily transports via atom ?

<hhalpin> quite unspecified - some fairly arbitrary XML.

<danja> all in http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4287.txt

<danbri> well google yahoosearchmonkey's datarss maybe?

halpin: nice if social web xg explained why rdf is not always used

<mischat> what is wrong with rss1

<hhalpin> The Social Web XG put a paper forwards?

im sorry i have to leave the phone

<hhalpin> well, you can put turtle in atom payload

<mischat> i will take over rreck

thanks man

im doing poorly anyway

<mischat> links elements in atom ... they might be able to used to put triples into atom

<hhalpin> re-presenting Atom data as RDF or RDF model as Atom.

<hhalpin> not sure about perfectly reversible translation

<petef> I have to go. Bye all.

<danja> bye

<hhalpin> Probably not RDF/XML community :)

<hhalpin> community that uses triples

<hhalpin> odata is a restatement of the rdf model

<mischat> but XML has a lot of mature transport mechanisms

<mischat> and hence why rdfxml is useful

<mischat> albeit ugly

<hhalpin> modelling atom in rdf lets atom be put in triple store.

<mischat> does SPARQL 1.1 solve the same problems

<mischat> doesn't

<mischat> uploading data to triplestores

<melvster> this is a great discussion

<mischat> rdf lite ? link danny?

<mischat> http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/diagrams/n3/venn

<melvster> there's also: http://webofdata.wordpress.com/2010/03/01/data-and-the-web-choices/

<danbri> oh crap, i timezone'd out

<hhalpin> mischat: rdfa is quite a bit buggy

<mischat> ntriples

<mischat> http://developer.yahoo.com/searchmonkey/smguide/faq.html

<mischat> search monkey ^^ dataRSS

<mischat> which is atom+rdfa

<danja> mischat : rdf lite = my shorthand for rdf next step

<mischat> ok

<mischat> http://developer.yahoo.com/searchmonkey/smguide/understand_datarss.html

<hhalpin> if turtle as a payload could be solved as RDF?

<mischat> then why are you talking about the serialisation

<melvster> facebook for example, said they looked at using rdf (i cant remember for which feature), but found other choices less complicated

<mischat> they bought friendfeed which where rdfers

<mischat> and then ff seemed to simply vanish post buyout

<mischat> agree hhalpin

<mischat> agrred

<mischat> which is what are DataRSS @ yahoo are trying to do

<hhalpin> existing streams RDFize directly

<hhalpin> 1) transfer turtle as a payload

<mischat> no

<mischat> not closely

<mischat> yeah

<hhalpin> 2) use the link element to hook into RDF

<hhalpin> 3) directly RDF-ize Atom at either input or output stage

<hhalpin> 4) Put RDFa into Atom?

<hhalpin> maybe that

<MacTed> facebook found RDF/XML too complicated, as I recall ... more conflation of model with serialization making the model unattractive

<mischat> but talking about "turtle", surely we should be able to send any RDF, serialisation independent

<hhalpin> I imagine people would want to scrape minimal amount of RDF out of Atom

<hhalpin> not necessarily all of Atom.

<mischat> examples would go along way in grddl world

<hhalpin> yes we don't have a standard grddl transform for Atom - I tried a while back to get consensus between the 3 or 4 we had out there, bu tno luck

xslt is hard because its event driven

<melvster> delete and insert

<hhalpin> ok, I gotta run, will try to draft something up

<melvster> this is the diagram timbl talked about: http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/diagrams/social/acl-arch.png

<mischat> so we need more standards

<mischat> :)

<hhalpin> trackbot, end meeting

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Found Scribe: rreck
Inferring ScribeNick: rreck
Default Present: tpa, MacTed, +1.781.416.aaaa, +0798919aabb, hhalpin, +1.218.296.aacc, rreck, +41.79.436.aadd, +0797094aaee, petef, melvster, mischat
Present: tpa MacTed +1.781.416.aaaa +0798919aabb hhalpin +1.218.296.aacc rreck +41.79.436.aadd +0797094aaee petef melvster mischat
Found Date: 07 Apr 2010
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-swxg-minutes.html
People with action items: hhalpin petef pferne tanglade tpa

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