See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 07 April 2010
<hhalpin> Anyone want to scribe?
i can try
im having phone issues
please state who is talking when you talk
can i do like half the scribing?
<hhalpin> scribe: rreck
<melvster> danja: could you be +39.058.368.aaff ?
<mischat> Zakim: 0798919aagg is me
it helps if people say who they are when they speak
but i wont be able to tell, which is my second biggest problem
<hhalpin> PROPOSED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 31 March 2010 as a true record
<hhalpin> hmm...can't find minutes URI.
<hhalpin> Will put fixing that on next agenda.
<hhalpin> PROPOSED: to meet again Wed. April 14th
+1 meet again
<hhalpin> Policy languages or tagging
halpin: update on w3c meeting discussing social web
<mischat> harry's email sent round today ^^
halpin: meetings with google
... need to clean up action items
halpin: or purge them
... adam not here
<mischat> the minutes for last meeting, doesn't seem to resolve : http://www.w3.org/2010/10/03-swxg-minutes.html
halpin: cant purge it
<hhalpin> not sure if they have evolved...
<hhalpin> micha: to make a git repository with terms and conditions to see if terms and conditions and changed.
<hhalpin> So we'll keep this open?
<hhalpin> We did get our charter extension...
halpin: had charter
... but we need to create draft final report
... due at the end of this month
... lets talk about this for 10-15 minutes then future speakers
lets do business first
<petef> +1 for final report first
christine: lets do final report, im not on irc
halpin: christines document is nice
<hhalpin> thanks christine!
christine: the idea was to contribute this to the final report and is in the public domain
<hhalpin> new version?
<hhalpin> new version on wiki?
christine: there is a slightly improved version, any part anywhere is appropriate
<hhalpin> ACTION: hhalpin to email Renato and Christine to take into final document [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-swxg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-133 - Email Renato and Christine to take into final document [on Harry Halpin - due 2010-04-14].
christine: there is a change in vocabulary base on feedback
halpin: we need landscape overview
<mischat> perhaps http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/DiscussionTopics
<hhalpin> Hmm...looking for other wikis.
christine: can we contrast different landscapes in the final report
halpin: final report can link to other documents but it should be self contained
<hhalpin> visual picture of how the various standards fit together?
<hhalpin> literal lanscape picture
<hhalpin> there references then to the other pages/code/
i dont hear anything except myself
my irc is beeping, do you hear that?
<mischat> nothing there
christine: what parts are needed?
<hhalpin> landscape and picture is needed?
halpin: landscape document
<hhalpin> does anyone want to take that on?
halpin: i can help but need a point person
<mischat> perhaps I could help with picture
<petef> I could help with the picture
<mischat> yay petef
<petef> yay mischat
<hhalpin> ACTION: petef to help make picture of landscape [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-swxg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - petef
<hhalpin> ACTION: pferne to help make picture of landscape [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-swxg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-134 - Help make picture of landscape [on Peter Ferne - due 2010-04-14].
<hhalpin> acki mischat
christine: will we have usecases in final report?
<hhalpin> the latter, the technology space.
mischat: technologies in landscape picture?
<petef> I assume that too
<petef> Please do hhalpin
<petef> forward those diagrams
<hhalpin> use-case document
<hhalpin> tpa? is that latest version?
im missing some stuff, sorry
some talk about refining document
christine: put some stuff in appendix?
<hhalpin> its pretty solid.
halpin: how many people know W3C web architecture document?
<hhalpin> well, anything with a URI is a resource
<hhalpin> so that would include text, profiles, video, audio
<hhalpin> anything that has a URI as is retrievved by HTTP GET
<hhalpin> video/audio/etc. etc. are actually media types
<hhalpin> Uploading, publishing user-generated text (blog post) with or without tags
<hhalpin> Uploading, publishing user-generated images (photos) with or without tags
<hhalpin> Uploading, publishing any user-generated resource with or without tags
christine: set size and simplify
<hhalpin> boil it down to a dozen...
<mischat> hhalpin: are the invited talks going to be included in the final report ?
<hhalpin> yes, the invited talks need to be summarized somewhat.
<hhalpin> maybe some headings?
<hhalpin> in section 3
<hhalpin> I would say only a few sentences.
two ways to do this... summary of each lvl 2 section
extracting important stories as a sample
<mischat> section 3 headings : http://mmt.me.uk/p/hVhvzh
i dont know who is talking
<mischat> rreck: that is tpa
halpin: three main stories
... final report will have entire usecase document
... 2 or 3 sentences as summaries, bullet points
<hhalpin> 10 bullet point with 2-3 sentences
<hhalpin> and choose 2-3 stories
tpa: 1-2 lines on each story
<mischat> which stories ? these ones ? http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories
halpin: agreed that is fine
... its due at the end of the month
... dont add more but look at the ones we have done
<hhalpin> ACTION: tpa to write 2-3 sentences for each story [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-swxg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - tpa
<hhalpin> ACTION: tanglade to write 2-3 sentences for each story [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-swxg-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-135 - Write 2-3 sentences for each story [on Tim Anglade - due 2010-04-14].
tpa: a lot of work went into some of them but may not be useful as it is
christine: i will be back up editor, i have to leave the call now
halpin: w3c is looking for ...have technologies the exist interested in standarization?
<hhalpin> ACTION: hhalpin to re-email some of the invited talk people on possible future standardizati [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-swxg-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-136 - Re-email some of the invited talk people on possible future standardizati [on Harry Halpin - due 2010-04-14].
tpa: what is the format of final report?
halpin: its loose
tpa: on the wiki?
halpin: on wiki or...
<hhalpin> here's a draft page to start cut and pasting things.
<hhalpin> and I have automated scripts...
<hhalpin> let's just cut and paste stuff into this page.
tpa: is there an outline?
halpin: problem, definition
... usecase, technology landscape
<hhalpin> I think it should go 1) Problem 2) Definitions 3) Use-Cases 4) Technology Landscape 5) Future Standardization
<hhalpin> I'm happy to focus on 4) and 5)
<hhalpin> Tim takes on 3)
<hhalpin> 1) and 2) fairly straightforward manner
halpin: do people feel comfortable?
<hhalpin> which we have about 3 weeks to finish
<mischat> +1 to comfortable
halpin: w3c wants to be more....
<hhalpin> make some of the standard more lightweight and agile
<hhalpin> This tension in the XG and the general landscape
<hhalpin> between RDF, XMPP, and Atom as the baseline data format.
<hhalpin> for social web work.
<mischat> mmm is xmpp is a data format ?
<hhalpin> Chris Messina activity streams - why he chose Atom and Pubsubhub?
<hhalpin> XEP and Pubsubhubhub for realtime updating
<hhalpin> lost a lot of people?
<hhalpin> what happened there.
<tpa> woah, holy phone split batman
<hhalpin> we'll hold on...
<hhalpin> I'll just keep up in IRC
<hhalpin> anyways, there was definite interest in improving the RDF and Atom story, perhaps using Atom as some sort of RDF syntax
<mischat> that could go into section 5 perhaps
halpin: membership discuss about alternatives
<hhalpin> Odata work by Microsoft?
<hhalpin> Open Data format
<hhalpin> which is seemingly a sort of alternative to RDF
<mischat> lovely, very similar, they even have bnodie type things
<hhalpin> Make a connection between Atom and RDF world
<hhalpin> Activity-Streams spec
i can hear, but im lost
<hhalpin> pubsubhub spec
danja: said a ton of stuff
<hhalpin> rreck - just try your best
<hhalpin> let's model Atom *inside* RDF
<mischat> there has been lots of work in the atom world, and the pubhubsub world
<hhalpin> to a model of Atom
<hhalpin> the other is to look at Atom itself as a way of serializing RDF.
<hhalpin> and providing updates to changes in triple-stores
<hhalpin> RSS 1.0 to do that
halpin: user has action
<hhalpin> user [action] possibly on a [subject]
<hhalpin> and that at least in [actions] are given URIs.
<hhalpin> but you can imagine being given URIs.
sound reasonable to me
<mischat> danbri has been working on sparql over xmpp to update triplestore
<danja> (in activity streams)
<danja> oops - further up
<hhalpin> to go with IETF over W3C?
<hhalpin> link mischat?
danja: W#C might be accused of being heavy handed and forcing the use of RDF
danja: work out mapping of RDF and ATOM
<mischat> i recall a atom+rdfa work
danja: seems like low hanging fruit
<hhalpin> I've seen DataRSS work...
<mischat> danbri talking sparql + xmpp --- i think there is working code somewhere
<hhalpin> O'Reilly codezoo...RDF as payload in Atom.
<danbri> yeah, i think steve has something
<mischat> yeah steve does too
<mischat> danbri: do you have links to rdfa+atom ?
<hhalpin> big difference between having RDFa and RDF/XML in payload.
<hhalpin> I guess RDF into Atom as possible.
<hhalpin> RDF model in Atom as possible.
<hhalpin> named-valued pairs
<mischat> harry asks, does anyone have any ideas around making RDF easily transports via atom ?
<hhalpin> quite unspecified - some fairly arbitrary XML.
<danja> all in http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4287.txt
<danbri> well google yahoosearchmonkey's datarss maybe?
halpin: nice if social web xg explained why rdf is not always used
<mischat> what is wrong with rss1
<hhalpin> The Social Web XG put a paper forwards?
im sorry i have to leave the phone
<hhalpin> well, you can put turtle in atom payload
<mischat> i will take over rreck
im doing poorly anyway
<mischat> links elements in atom ... they might be able to used to put triples into atom
<hhalpin> re-presenting Atom data as RDF or RDF model as Atom.
<hhalpin> not sure about perfectly reversible translation
<petef> I have to go. Bye all.
<hhalpin> Probably not RDF/XML community :)
<hhalpin> community that uses triples
<hhalpin> odata is a restatement of the rdf model
<mischat> but XML has a lot of mature transport mechanisms
<mischat> and hence why rdfxml is useful
<mischat> albeit ugly
<hhalpin> modelling atom in rdf lets atom be put in triple store.
<mischat> does SPARQL 1.1 solve the same problems
<mischat> uploading data to triplestores
<melvster> this is a great discussion
<mischat> rdf lite ? link danny?
<melvster> there's also: http://webofdata.wordpress.com/2010/03/01/data-and-the-web-choices/
<danbri> oh crap, i timezone'd out
<hhalpin> mischat: rdfa is quite a bit buggy
<mischat> search monkey ^^ dataRSS
<mischat> which is atom+rdfa
<danja> mischat : rdf lite = my shorthand for rdf next step
<hhalpin> if turtle as a payload could be solved as RDF?
<mischat> then why are you talking about the serialisation
<melvster> facebook for example, said they looked at using rdf (i cant remember for which feature), but found other choices less complicated
<mischat> they bought friendfeed which where rdfers
<mischat> and then ff seemed to simply vanish post buyout
<mischat> agree hhalpin
<mischat> which is what are DataRSS @ yahoo are trying to do
<hhalpin> existing streams RDFize directly
<hhalpin> 1) transfer turtle as a payload
<mischat> not closely
<hhalpin> 2) use the link element to hook into RDF
<hhalpin> 3) directly RDF-ize Atom at either input or output stage
<hhalpin> 4) Put RDFa into Atom?
<hhalpin> maybe that
<MacTed> facebook found RDF/XML too complicated, as I recall ... more conflation of model with serialization making the model unattractive
<mischat> but talking about "turtle", surely we should be able to send any RDF, serialisation independent
<hhalpin> I imagine people would want to scrape minimal amount of RDF out of Atom
<hhalpin> not necessarily all of Atom.
<mischat> examples would go along way in grddl world
<hhalpin> yes we don't have a standard grddl transform for Atom - I tried a while back to get consensus between the 3 or 4 we had out there, bu tno luck
xslt is hard because its event driven
<melvster> delete and insert
<hhalpin> ok, I gotta run, will try to draft something up
<melvster> this is the diagram timbl talked about: http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/diagrams/social/acl-arch.png
<mischat> so we need more standards
<hhalpin> trackbot, end meeting
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135 of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Found Scribe: rreck Inferring ScribeNick: rreck Default Present: tpa, MacTed, +1.781.416.aaaa, +0798919aabb, hhalpin, +1.218.296.aacc, rreck, +41.79.436.aadd, +0797094aaee, petef, melvster, mischat Present: tpa MacTed +1.781.416.aaaa +0798919aabb hhalpin +1.218.296.aacc rreck +41.79.436.aadd +0797094aaee petef melvster mischat Found Date: 07 Apr 2010 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-swxg-minutes.html People with action items: hhalpin petef pferne tanglade tpa WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]