08:07:30 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
08:07:30 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-html-a11y-irc
08:07:32 RRSAgent, make logs world
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08:07:34 Zakim, this will be 2119
08:07:34 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTMLTF F2F)3:30AM scheduled to start 37 minutes ago
08:07:35 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
08:07:35 Date: 07 April 2010
08:07:46 zakim, code?
08:07:46 the conference code is 2119 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), MichaelC
08:08:01 WAI_PFWG(HTMLTF F2F)3:30AM has now started
08:08:08 +Gregory_Rosmaita
08:08:20 +??P1
08:09:07 Birmingham is now on the conference bridge
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08:10:37 zakim, ??P1 is FtF
08:10:37 +FtF; got it
08:10:38 MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y
08:11:02 agenda: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/ftf_2010-04
08:11:20 zakim, FtF has Mike_Smith, Michael_Cooper, Dick_Bulterman, Joshue_O'Connor, Janina_Sajka, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Martin_Kliehm, Eric_Carlson, Marco_Ranon
08:11:20 +Mike_Smith, Michael_Cooper, Dick_Bulterman, Joshue_O'Connor, Janina_Sajka, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Martin_Kliehm, Eric_Carlson, Marco_Ranon; got it
08:11:31 zakim, Steve_Faulkner has entered FtF
08:11:31 +Steve_Faulkner; got it
08:11:45 regrets: Sally_Cain
08:14:25 richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
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08:15:07 silvia, you can skype me at sideshowbarker
08:20:47 q+ to ask if we are going to break down the "summary issue" as we did yesterday with longdesc, starting with "attribute versus element" and competing proposals or is that too big a can of worms to open
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08:21:14 ack me
08:21:14 oedipus, you wanted to ask if we are going to break down the "summary issue" as we did yesterday with longdesc, starting with "attribute versus element" and competing proposals or
08:21:18 ... is that too big a can of worms to open
08:21:35 +Sean_Hayes
08:22:15 scribe: Martin_Kliehm
08:22:21 scribenick: kliehm
08:24:10 agenda: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/ftf_2010-04
08:24:15 topic: Media
08:24:18 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media
08:24:25 chair: Janina_Sajka, Mike_Smith
08:24:37 issue 9
08:25:00 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_TextAssociations
08:26:34 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_MultitrackAPI
08:26:42 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Sub-Group
08:26:51 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Multimedia_Q%26A
08:27:23 silvia: looking forward to an agreement on the issues above to move forward, doesn't need to be final.
08:27:45 silvia: positive signals from browser vendors
08:29:38 janina: we are proposing recommendations at this f2f meeting for the Thursday telcon
08:30:03 -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/consensus-procedures Task Force consensus procedures
08:30:15 ok, thanks
08:30:25 I've dropped out
08:30:32 Mike is calling you back
08:30:56 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
08:31:17 anyway - don't wait for me - that particular tangent need be discussed at another time
08:32:05 s/ok, thanks//
08:32:13 s/I've dropped out//
08:32:27 s/Mike is caling you back//
08:32:33 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
08:33:00 s/Mike is caling you back//
08:33:04 s/Mike is calling you back//
08:33:07 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
08:33:55 Dick Bultermann: main concern I have is that declarative support for accessibility is lacking while scripting support is more advanced.
08:34:39 http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/video.html#media-elements
08:34:49 Just a side note: this concern is not with the "Multitrack API" but with the "Media Textassociations" document
08:35:01 dick: regarding multitrack most proposals suggest new elements to fix problems, that seems to be a non-sustainable solution.
08:35:33 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_TextAssociations#Proposal
08:35:40 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_TextAssociations#File_Formats
08:36:09 dick: the issue is not just what codecs people need, but also alternative presentation modes for people with different disabilities.
08:36:55 dick: There are general solutions like SMIL's content control, or DAISY that already provide a starting point that needs to be tailored for the special needs of HTML.
08:37:28 dick: It's been in IE 5.5 and several versions of DAISY.
08:37:50 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_MultitrackAPI
08:38:13 q?
08:39:03 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/0009.html
08:39:16 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/MediaSpecificElements
08:39:28 dick: I sent to some of you a description of the SMIL content control model.
08:40:27 silvia: has seen the first draft of the document mentioned by Dick. There's a concern that a single timeline is insufficient.
08:42:34 silvia: Also more concerns we haven't dealt with at this TF. We've done work on the declarative and JavaScript API. In the JavaScript API there's just one timetrack, still it's possible to use different languages.
08:42:43 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=5758
08:44:13 silvia: There is a single timeline and a timing model in HTML that is sufficient for synchronization.
08:44:37 http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/video.html#time-ranges
08:44:56 http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/video.html#location-of-the-media-resource
08:45:46 dick: As an example in MPEG4 there are different means to switch certain tracks on and off, but in other codecs those tracks exist in separate files that need to be synchronized.
08:46:54 http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/webappapis.html#timers
08:47:08 dick: For the moment synchronization is implicit, but we need an explicit model that can be done in very little time.
08:47:19 q?
08:47:25 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_MultitrackAPI
08:47:49 silvia: First topic is the media multitrack proposal.
08:48:49 silvia we lost audio
08:49:01 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Sub-Group
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08:49:35 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_MultitrackAPI#Draft_Proposal
08:49:40 meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Face to Face, Day 2
08:49:40 maybe I can share the list of topics here
08:49:46 (lost connection)
08:49:56 scribenick: martin_kliehm
08:50:08 1. http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_MultitrackAPI
08:50:19 Stevef_ has joined #html-a11y
08:50:21 2. http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_TextAssociations
08:50:25 3. caption file format
08:50:41 4. more general synchronisation of media elements
08:51:28 Dick: several concerns, for example who is the trackmaster, video stream or text file?
08:51:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
08:51:49 scribenick: kliehm
08:52:54 Eric Carlson: I think that granular level of control is beyond the scope of the first implementation.
08:53:09 q+ to say TTML allows spatial control
08:53:45 Dick: We need a perspective for future development.
08:54:50 Janina: When would we get to that level of control? HTML6?
08:55:16 q?
08:56:30 q?
08:56:43 Eric: With the movement we've seen in the last few years I'd be surprised if it took as long as the transition from HTML4 -> HTML5.
08:56:54 zakim, Silvia_Pfeiffer has entered FtF
08:56:54 +Silvia_Pfeiffer; got it
08:57:04 http://www.w3.org/TR/ttaf1-dfxp/
08:57:04 -> http://www.w3.org/TR/ttaf1-dfxp/ TTML 1.0
08:57:08 janina has joined #html-a11y
08:57:44 http://www.w3.org/ns/ttml/
08:57:45 q+
08:57:55 ack se
08:57:55 Sean, you wanted to say TTML allows spatial control
08:58:29 ack si
08:58:33 Sean asking about TTML spatial control.
08:58:58 +1 to getting structure in the discussion
08:59:59 Silvia: audio and video in HTML5 is a given and as a first step we should be trying to make that accessible now.
09:00:53 http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/video.html#video
09:00:56 Silvia: I believe what Dick suggests can be added on top, but should be addressed in a separate subgroup.
09:01:04 http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/video.html#audio
09:01:42 http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/video.html#media-elements
09:01:42 q+
09:03:14 Janina: concern if the spec would be continued to be worked on in that area, Eric confirmed that work will continue. Still we need to discuss the future perspective.
09:03:24 AUDIO and VIDEO lack accessible markup: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=5758
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09:04:14 q?
09:04:47 Silvia: Dick paints a bigger picture, we need to solve the simple thinks first. We shouldn't stop to push those ideas forward though, Dick is doing an excellent job driving it forward.
09:05:03 s/thinks/things/
09:05:25 ack s
09:05:30 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
09:06:42 Sean: It would be nice to re-architecture the audio/video model to include accessibility from the beginning, but we wouldn't reach a result. The HTML WG would drop the suggestion in horror.
09:07:49 Eric: Agrees. The current state is the result of work in the last three years. It's very unlikely that the current implementation will be re-shaped in the way Dick proposes.
09:08:04 q+
09:09:06 q?
09:09:14 GJR notes that bug 5758 is datestamped 2008-06-15 (2008-06-15 )
09:09:52 [discussion of lack of response by WG regarding video accessibility suggestions in the last two years]
09:11:12 aurlien levy on video lack of a11y (2007) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jul/0136.html
09:11:19 In a moment. You're next on q
09:11:47 Eric: Start and end time, loops and more was shipped in WebKit but removed by request.
09:12:48 Dick: I will work with Silvia on the Track API if that's the focus at the moment.
09:13:28 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_MultitrackAPI
09:13:38 Silvia asking about point of view on JavaScript API
09:14:51 Dick: If somebody pauses the video the timing should be clarified that the video stream is the timing master and the captions are slaves. Also when the video ends but the track is longer, they should stop, too.
09:15:48 q?
09:15:53 ack s
09:17:58 q?
09:19:57 Joshue has joined #html-a11y
09:20:11 kliehm has joined #html-a11y
09:20:21 [lost conncetion again]
09:20:25 Sean: The role is read only, you're not applying it by JavaScript.
09:20:28 q?
09:21:36 http://webkit.org/
09:22:44 Eric: The JavaScript API supplies script access to caption tracks, whether they are internal or external. Thus custom controls can access different caption tracks.
09:22:48 http://planet.webkit.org/
09:23:26 janina, i will ping Kenny Johar who said he would review the Multitrack API
09:23:50 q+ to point out that bugs should be raised for both of these proposals
09:24:39 Janina: Has there been a discussion to standardize API access on controls?
09:25:01 Eric: That is part of the existing JavaScript API.
09:25:46 janina, i am emailing Kenny Johar to review the Media stuff
09:25:49 Silvia, Eric: The default controls are hooked up to the system accessibility APIs so that they are keyboard navigable.
09:27:04 q?
09:28:09 Dick: Concerned that number of attributes are boolean. controls=false === controls=true is confusing. Also you cannot turn controls off.
09:28:48 Eric: boolean attributes are a given, changing them would never fly with the HTML WG.
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09:30:21 Silvia: That's been in HTML4 and previous versions, it's a fundamental concept.
09:31:04 [strong agreement we shouldn't try to change this]
09:31:53 agree with sean
09:32:05 Eric: The spec doesn't say anything about the look and position of the controls.
09:32:57 Eric: For example the placement of captions can be significant.
09:33:00 -> Dick Bulterman's Initial version of Synchronization issue http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/0082.html
09:33:00 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/0082.html
09:34:02 MK: What about the stylability of form controls via CSS etc? They should be stylable.
09:34:29 EC: This is an issue that we shouldn't be concerned with but we may need to escalate it elsewhere.
09:34:32 q+
09:34:43 qq?
09:34:45 q?
09:34:49 q- later
09:34:54 ack s
09:35:25 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/thread.html#msg31
09:35:45 2. http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_TextAssociations
09:36:07 maciej comment: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/0039.html
09:37:58 Silvia: I hear we have an basic agreement on the first proposal (Multitrack API). Dick will email a few clarifications.
09:40:17 ack mi
09:40:17 MikeSmith, you wanted to point out that bugs should be raised for both of these proposals
09:41:06 Mike Smith: As a first step we should submit bugs for the proposals in Bugzilla.
09:41:10 5 minutes to first scheduled break
09:41:40 MikeSmith, would the new bugs complement or subsume bug 5758? (http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=5758)
09:42:37 MikeSmith, silvia volunteered to file bugs
09:43:34 oedipus: I think the new bugs compliment 5758
09:43:51 I'll make a reference to that bug
09:45:18 silvia, i talked to Kenny Johar about working on the Media Sub-Group -- his schedule should sync with yours as far as telephone time is concerned
09:45:36 where is he located?
09:45:44 victoria
09:45:50 Janina: Perhaps we need a face-2face meeting at TPAC for media.
09:46:18 q?
09:46:23 Silvia, Michael Cooper said yesterday TPAC 2010 will be in Lyon, France.
09:46:53 ah, cool!
09:48:03 q+
09:48:45 ack si
09:49:51 Silvia: I'd like to reconfirm we can perfectly associate captions, audio transcriptions and external text with audio/video. What we can't do at the moment is that DAISY level of access.
09:50:06 GJR notes that DAISY is interested in ensuring that the next iteration (ZedAI and ZedNext) can be rendered in HTML5-capable browsers
09:50:41 To be clear, there is no declarative way of doing DAISY. The JS API would allow it
09:50:46 GJR notes that DAISY is considering/working on a profile for use with HTML5
09:51:22 Janina: Accessible captions are just the beginning, internationalization might also be an issue.
09:52:24 Mike: The TF could as implementors if DAISY would be an option for the next version. We should have our concern on record and expect improvement.
09:52:37 s/as/ask/
09:54:01 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Multimedia_Q%26A
09:54:26 Eric: Asking implementors is one way, also people who understand accessibility should phrase the requirements.
09:55:02 -> Accessibility Needs (Multimedia Q&A) http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Multimedia_Q%26A
09:56:27 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/att-0082/HTML5_Synchronization.html
09:56:48 Dick: I have more fundamental problems with the second proposal, just sent out a draft to the group. There are mutually exclusive concerns that should be addressed.
09:57:01 Yes lets do media now while we are all available
09:58:47 Silvia: I could write a response to Dick's concerns.
09:59:39 Dick: I can trim the document down to just the basic concerns.
10:00:18 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
10:00:29 -Gregory_Rosmaita
10:00:52 silvia, will you be back on later at all?
10:01:04 What is the agenda after the break?
10:01:30 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/ftf_2010-04
10:01:34 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/ftf_2010-04#agenda
10:01:40 if there is more media discussion I can be back
10:01:48 but I'd rather spend some time with our friends now
10:01:54 next is drag & drop
10:02:47 OK. I have to go do some other stuff now.
10:02:54 -Sean_Hayes
10:03:22 thanks, no need for my presence then :)
10:07:13 richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
10:19:40 Birmingham paging Oedipus
10:20:03 +Gregory_Rosmaita
10:21:18 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/RoleAttribute
10:22:13 kliehm has joined #html-a11y
10:25:03 TOPIC: Drag and Drop
10:25:04 -> drag and drop in HTML5 http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/editing.html#dnd
10:25:04 http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/editing.html#dnd
10:25:04 -> drag and drop events model in HTML5 http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/editing.html#drag-and-drop-processing-model
10:25:04 http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/editing.html#drag-and-drop-processing-model
10:26:09 scribe: Marco_Ranon
10:27:26 RS: currently no guidance on DnD
10:27:40 -> @draggable http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/editing.html#the-draggable-attribute
10:27:40 http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/editing.html#the-draggable-attribute
10:28:20 RS: several functionalities for mouse, need to make sure we have keyboard equivalents
10:29:16 -> ARIA drag and drop http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/states_and_properties#attrs_dragdrop
10:29:16 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/states_and_properties#attrs_dragdrop
10:29:19 RS: no time for DnD, maybe Gez can work on this?
10:30:35