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07:55:49 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/04/06-html-a11y-irc
07:55:51 RRSAgent, make logs world
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07:55:53 Zakim, this will be 2119
07:55:53 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTMLTF F2F)3:30AM scheduled to start 25 minutes ago
07:55:54 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
07:55:54 Date: 06 April 2010
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08:04:51 Hi, Everyone! We're starting momentarilly. It'll be a moment or two while we find scribes for the morning.
08:05:55 We're sending pastries your way -- e-pastries, that is ---
08:06:49 We have two, count 'em, two Ipads in the room here.
08:08:25 WAI_PFWG(HTMLTF F2F)3:30AM has now started
08:08:32 +??P0
08:08:45 We're on the Zakim bridge, now. Please join.
08:08:47 I will only call in when absolutely necessary, since I am actually staying at friends this week
08:08:53 I am following irc though
08:09:15 OK, Sylvia. BTW: We'll discuss moving the Media discussion to an earlier hour tomorrow in a moment.
08:09:24 that is very much appreciated, thanks
08:09:25 +Gregory_Rosmaita
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08:11:30 No Skype, I'm afraid.
08:11:58 scribe: Rich
08:12:26 agenda: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/ftf_2010-04
08:12:35 MichaelC has changed the topic to: HTML A11Y TF FtF; WiFi PIN 173660; agenda http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/ftf_2010-04
08:14:14 prolly
08:14:26 Janina: we should expect Steve Faulkner and Martin Kline around 10am
08:15:02 Janina: lets get something easy to do by 10
08:15:16 Topic: longdesc
08:15:47 Janina: we have spent a fair amount of time on a couple of topics we need to cover
08:15:58 Janina: we have some things near completion
08:16:15 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/longdesc
08:16:36 Janina: The hope in this meeting is that we are closer to consensus on a number of these issues
08:16:36 s/prolly//
08:16:42 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/30
08:17:43 janina: we need to collect recommendations and send to the group at large for later submittal to the main HTML working group
08:17:54 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/LongdescConformingWithWarning
08:18:17 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/LongdescRetention
08:18:18 janina: we will meet with the main task force a week from this Thursday
08:18:59 chaals: when are we doing the video discussion
08:19:22 janina: sometime early tomorrow so that Sylvia may be available at a more reasonable hour
08:19:58 thanks
08:20:02 janina: we are fairly close to consensus on a number of issues
08:21:06 janina: we can start 9am tomorrow morning on medai
08:21:11 s/medai/media
08:21:21 excellent, thanks
08:21:35 should Dick be delayed, we can do it a bit later, too
08:22:08 congrats, rich
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08:26:15 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/30
08:26:16 janina: what to say about longdesc
08:26:21 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/longdesc
08:26:25 janina: you have a change proposal in
08:26:28 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/LongdescConformingWithWarning
08:26:34 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/LongdescRetention
08:26:49 first wiki page is chaals' change proposal
08:27:06 janina: short and long descriptions related to aria-describedby
08:27:37 q+ to say that aria-describedby isn't a solution to longdesc, but a technique that relies on ARIA support
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08:28:43 chaals: The change proposal is pretty straight foward. longdesc is not clever and is not all that bad and when it is there it serves its purpose. So, I don't see why we should throw it away.
08:28:54 longdesc would have been more widely implemented if had been DESCREF (that could be an external HREF or a bit to be embedded in document containing image
08:29:06 chaals: we spent a trivial amount of time implementing it
08:29:25 chaals: aria-describedby only provides an in-page reference
08:29:28 q?
08:29:49 chaals: I don't plan on taking longdesc forward
08:30:04 chaals: the value of the out of page reference is important for content management systems
08:30:34 chaals: google would not trust this and would treat this as a spam vector
08:31:08 chaals: the long and short is this is simple stuff and works in a tiny minority of cases
08:31:17 Opera longdesc extention: http://userjs.org/scripts/browser/enhancements/frameset-links
08:31:21 mozilla longdesc add-on: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/273
08:31:28 chaals: the implementation of longdesc has been woeful
08:31:48 q?
08:31:50 [Opera implemented longdesc support natively in 10.10 last year]
08:32:33 janina: one point and the ability to ...
08:32:43 ack me
08:32:43 oedipus, you wanted to say that aria-describedby isn't a solution to longdesc, but a technique that relies on ARIA support
08:32:46 +q
08:33:02 janina: you could have aria-describedby to point to a link
08:33:05 rich: yes
08:33:12 chaals: but it is not a direct link
08:33:40 gregory: aria-describedby is not a replacement for longdesc
08:33:49 janina: I think the use case is easy. We need it
08:34:07 janina: education is a good example for why we would need longdesc
08:34:19 janina: but what is the mechanism for getting at it.
08:34:28 s/replacement for longdesc/replacement for longdesc but a technique for identifying detailed descriptive text
08:34:43 q+ to say it isn't the mechanism for getting to the description that matters, but getting it written and used. IMHO
08:34:46 solution should be NATIVE not an overlay
08:34:53 janina: I am concerned that we are going to have two mechanisms to get at long descriptions. ... I am concerned about bloat
08:34:58 ack Joshue
08:35:16 josh: I guess one of the things I am concerned about is that longdesc is well defined
08:35:38 josh: I think we should look at why it failed. ... why has there been little use
08:35:57 josh: we should look at why it does not work
08:36:39 josh: longdesc can take a URI that the screen reader could buffer and we would need AT vendor buy in
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08:36:53 josh: longdesc wins for me
08:37:07 josh: why has it not really worked?
08:37:14 ack me
08:37:14 chaals, you wanted to say it isn't the mechanism for getting to the description that matters, but getting it written and used. IMHO
08:37:40 chaals: there are two things at stake. One is getting decent descriptions
08:37:44 chaals: that has not happened
08:38:38 chaals: why did it fail. We spent more time in Opera arguing why we should use it
08:39:18 implementation in AT is spotty too -- JAWS spawns a new browser instance to display LONGDESC on user request and no other way to have exposed by JAWS
08:39:34 chaals: In a
08:40:04 chaals: in ARIA 2.0 we could have aria-describedby support an off page and on page representation
08:40:06 q+ to say for such a basic feature the solution should be native to HTML5
08:40:43 chaals: the idea of having a prefetch is a problem
08:40:49 q?
08:41:23 chaals: the likely thing is that longdesc is here we should use it now and it will be deprecated later.
08:41:25 q+
08:41:45 ack me
08:41:45 oedipus, you wanted to say for such a basic feature the solution should be native to HTML5
08:42:16 oedipus: for such a basic feature it should be part of HTML 5
08:42:26 +1 to GJR, the same could be said for most accessibility related stuff.
08:42:32 oedipus: if we push it off to aria alone we will cut off a lot of users will benefit from it
08:42:46 strong plus 1 to MichaelC
08:42:57 michaelC: aria is meant as a technology that will be subsumed over time
08:43:04 q?
08:43:09 ack m
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08:43:43 +1 to using longdesc rather than aria-described by for now
08:43:45 michaelC: the reason ARIA is needed as the language does not support a set of features
08:43:45 2007 PF expresses preference for native solutions in HTML5: http://bit.ly/8Yr31k
08:44:09 janina: the answer sounds like this - yes there is some overlap but the overlap fills a function
08:44:24 janina: the new direction (aria) requires a two step process
08:44:44 also problem of aria-describedby being used as a 2010 D-Link
08:44:50 mikesmith: we will get pushback
08:45:31 q+
08:45:33 mikesmith: people will argue that people do not use it properly now
08:45:53 mikesmith: josh's point is very relevant
08:46:21 longdesc was good enough for CSS2 - there are over 45 longdescs in that TR
08:46:28 q+
08:46:34 q+ to ask if lack of support for longdesc in HTML is because implementation of "longdesc" isn't well done, or implementation of "long descriptions" isn't done well?
08:47:07 chaals: we know authors do not use it properly. ... my point is who cares?
08:47:10 ?
08:47:12 implementors can think of longdesc as DESCREF (embed or external)
08:47:12 q?
08:47:22 +q
08:47:24 q?
08:47:31 chaals: there is a measurable amount of content where peope do use it correctly
08:47:32 ack c
08:48:03 chaals: the fact that people like Freedom Scientific use it because there is a demand for it
08:49:03 janina: we should at least honor the need to trim off the dead branches
08:49:13 LONGDESC may be a shakey branch, but not a dead one
08:49:35 [/me is not going to drop on a sword. We will just keep implementing it anyway]
08:49:37 janina: you would get google caching your results
08:49:43 LONGDESC been used in W3C TRs (CSS2, RWAB XG final report, etc.)
08:49:53 scribenick: chaals
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08:50:36 Rich: Having implemented longdesc, 2 things bother me. 1 - create and maintain a separate page, 2 - there is a context switch required for the user.
08:50:38 q+
08:50:45 ack r
08:51:00 q+ to say that LONGDESC could be like my proposed SUMMARY element -- a child of IMG and FIGURE which is NOT rendered by default, but can be rendered in a multiple of user-defined ways
08:51:05 ... So what would HTML accept? If we had describedBy takes a URI would they accept that?
08:51:26 SteveF: They don't like it in general.
08:51:28 if LONGDESC was DESCREF
08:51:46 +[IPcaller]
08:51:46 the same thing as longdesc - it is just a term
08:52:03 zakim, ipcaller is gregory
08:52:03 +gregory; got it
08:52:41 GJR: Doesn't matter if the URI is external or embedded
08:53:06 zakim, who is here
08:53:06 chaals, you need to end that query with '?'
08:53:07 my mike's not working
08:53:10 zakim, who is here?
08:53:10 On the phone I see FtF, Gregory_Rosmaita, gregory
08:53:10 it's cynthia
08:53:10 was that denis?
08:53:11 FtF has Sally_Cain, Marco_Ranon, Eric_Carlson, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina_Sajka, Joshue_O'Connor, Michael_Cooper, Mike_Smith, Charles_McCathieNevile, Steve_Faulkner
08:53:14 On IRC I see cyns, MikeSmith, eric_carlson, richardschwerdtfe, janina, Marco_Ranon, SCain, Zakim, RRSAgent, Joshue, chaals, MichaelC, oedipus, silvia, trackbot
08:53:20 Laura has joined #html-a11y
08:53:26 q?
08:53:30 zakim, gregory is Cynthia_Shelly
08:53:30 +Cynthia_Shelly; got it
08:54:15 lol
08:54:28 i have a proposed "solomonic solution" in my queued question
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08:55:13 q?
08:55:31 q+
08:55:33 ack mich
08:55:33 ack mich
08:55:34 MichaelC, you wanted to ask if lack of support for longdesc in HTML is because implementation of "longdesc" isn't well done, or implementation of "long descriptions" isn't done
08:55:38 ... well?
08:56:36 q+ to suggest we gauge implementor support, and also harp on the "choose our battles" point
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08:57:26 RS: We need long descriptions - one way or another.
08:57:43 In situations where images are not available to the user (because of disability, choice, or UA limitation) there is a need for a mechanism that presents equivalent content to the user, either as an alternative to the image or in a side-by-side exposition.
08:57:49 Equivalent content is not, nor should it be, and either/or proposition, and its method of exposition should be subject to user control, as some user groups may need both the image and its detailed description in order to make sense of the image or — in the case of a user with an extremely small viewport — to follow the image's flow.
08:57:50 ... putting alt text isn't good enough. I put a long description and point to it. All the time.
08:58:08 amen, chaals
08:58:13 ... as we get more dynamic content and more graphics we will need longer descriptions. Whether they go on a different page is an implemnentation detail.
08:58:43 ... we have been doing this internally for meetings and there are lots of details to sort out about how these get shown (or not).
08:58:54 ... is there a way we can do this without requiring the use of another page?
08:59:10 JOC: If longdesc allowed inline content would that work for you?
08:59:25 RS: Yes. Having fallback content for images is interesting...
08:59:26 q?
08:59:48 ack josh
08:59:50 scribe: rich
09:00:16 josh: aria-describedby was poorly implemented by authors
09:00:29 s/aria-describedby/longdesc/
09:00:31 josh: this ill always be a niche thing for people
09:00:40 s/ill/will/
09:01:08 josh: It is up to me for what I do
09:01:12 q?
09:01:16 ack chaals
09:01:22 q?
09:01:58 chaals: we could have fallback content and it has been implemented for a decade. The likely uptake for this is to have an element with fallback content
09:02:05 zakim, Martin_Kliehm has entered FtF
09:02:05 +Martin_Kliehm; got it
09:02:17 chaals: this won't work for image
09:02:42 chaals: architecturally allows us to have in page or out of page content
09:03:45 chaals: the implementation to support in context is a trivial piece of work for a user
09:03:54 +1 to Chaals (and now I remember my second point)
09:04:07 q+
09:04:39 chaals: the objection by the html working group that this will have crap content is really a "so what" response.
09:04:43 It is about having the choice to read longdesc if you need/want it
09:04:54 chaals: there are fundamental problems with invisible metadata
09:05:10 chaals: people are going to do a crap job because they don't care
09:05:28 chaals: noone has demonstrated that you will break the web
09:05:32 the tree has to be in the forest if anyone is going to hear it fall
09:05:43 chaals: Google only searches a fraction of the web
09:06:09 chaals: people do search the web because it is of valuable to them
09:06:14 +1 that philosophically avoiding invisible metadata vs providing info needed by some people (but others don't want to have to see) is a problem
09:06:36 chaals: what makes people think that aria-describedby will be any different
09:06:48 it is NOT "invisible metadata" BUT "discoverable metadata"
09:06:49 chaals: this is not something we should die on this hill for
09:06:53 +q, to ask can we discuss this issue of invisible metadata (briefly)?
09:07:10 chaals: If they don't support it in HTML 5 I will instruct people to do it
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09:07:28 chaals: there is nothing that fulfuills this functionality
09:07:30 +q or discoverable metadata
09:07:52 +q, or discoverable metadata even
09:07:57 ack me
09:07:57 oedipus, you wanted to say that LONGDESC could be like my proposed SUMMARY element -- a child of IMG and FIGURE which is NOT rendered by default, but can be rendered in a multiple
09:08:01 ... of user-defined ways
09:08:28 chaals: the argument that the web is not pure - so what
09:08:33 +1 to GJR
09:08:38 gregory: it is discoverable metadata
09:08:59 steve: I spend all my work time trying to advise companies on how to make content accessible
09:09:03 +q to ask about this issue of discoverable vs invisible metadata
09:09:14 steve: I would not recommend that they use longdesc
09:09:25 steve: it is only supported by 2 of the main screen readers
09:09:39 steve: I don't think it should go away
09:09:45 q+ to ask steveF what you would recommend instead, and what we should have
09:09:52 steve: i just would not recommend it
09:10:19 steve: the assumption is that aria-describedby does not support rich content
09:10:52 RS: It doesn't restrict rich content
09:11:04 RS: The problem is that the IE implementation is incomplete
09:11:15 rich, are you speaking of IE6 or later versions?
09:11:20 RS: Don't just it by the incomplete implementation
09:11:35 SF: It does work in Chrome
09:11:40 JS: Nothing else does lol
09:11:51