IRC log of ua on 2010-04-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:40:34 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:40:34 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/04/01-ua-irc
16:40:36 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:40:36 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
16:40:38 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:40:38 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 20 minutes
16:40:39 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:40:39 [trackbot]
Date: 01 April 2010
16:41:01 [AllanJ]
chair: Jim_Allan, Kelly_Ford
16:45:11 [Bim]
Bim has joined #UA
16:57:31 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
16:57:43 [sharper]
zakim, code?
16:57:43 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), sharper
16:58:17 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
16:58:24 [Zakim]
+Jim_Allan
16:59:14 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ U.S. Accessboard draft update to Sec 508 and 255
16:59:15 [AllanJ]
http://www.access-board.gov/sec508/refresh/draft-rule.htm
16:59:17 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ Discuss survey (start at 3.5.2)
16:59:18 [AllanJ]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/
16:59:20 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ review 3.1.3 and 3.1.5
16:59:21 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ discussion of 3.3.1
16:59:35 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ ACTION-325 - 3.3.2 Location in Hierarchy
16:59:44 [Zakim]
+??P6
16:59:46 [sharper]
zakim, ??P6 is sharper
16:59:46 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
17:01:03 [Zakim]
+ +0190476aaaa
17:01:57 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
17:01:59 [AllanJ]
zakim, aaaa is really Bim_Egan
17:01:59 [Zakim]
+Bim_Egan; got it
17:03:08 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.325.aabb
17:03:10 [Zakim]
- +1.617.325.aabb
17:03:13 [Zakim]
+??P12
17:03:21 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
17:04:07 [jeanne]
zakim, code?
17:04:07 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne
17:04:17 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
17:04:43 [patrickhlauke]
patrickhlauke has joined #ua
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+ +1.617.325.aacc
17:05:12 [AllanJ]
zakim, aacc is really KimPatch
17:05:12 [Zakim]
+KimPatch; got it
17:05:35 [AllanJ]
zakim, p12 is really PatrickLauke
17:05:35 [Zakim]
sorry, AllanJ, I do not recognize a party named 'p12'
17:05:48 [AllanJ]
zakim, ??p12 is really PatrickLauke
17:05:48 [Zakim]
+PatrickLauke; got it
17:05:59 [Zakim]
-PatrickLauke
17:06:20 [kford]
kford has joined #ua
17:06:32 [AllanJ]
regrets: GregL, MarkH
17:06:33 [Zakim]
+??P1
17:06:48 [kford]
I can monitor IRC during my conflict.
17:06:55 [AllanJ]
zakim, ??p1 is really PatrickLauke
17:06:55 [Zakim]
+PatrickLauke; got it
17:08:53 [AllanJ]
scribe: PatrickLauke
17:09:05 [AllanJ]
zakim, agenda:
17:09:05 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'agenda:', AllanJ
17:09:09 [AllanJ]
zakim, agenda?
17:09:09 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
17:09:10 [Zakim]
1. U.S. Accessboard draft update to Sec 508 and 255 [from AllanJ]
17:09:11 [Zakim]
2. Discuss survey (start at 3.5.2) [from AllanJ]
17:09:13 [Zakim]
3. review 3.1.3 and 3.1.5 [from AllanJ]
17:09:15 [Zakim]
4. discussion of 3.3.1 [from AllanJ]
17:09:17 [Zakim]
5. ACTION-325 - 3.3.2 Location in Hierarchy [from AllanJ]
17:10:48 [patrickhlauke]
Judy is looking at draft response, particularly for keyboard access. 508 going to mirror pretty much WCAG and looking to include user agent stuff
17:11:36 [patrickhlauke]
Bim: 508 won't affect UK, we don't have any similar legislation
17:11:58 [patrickhlauke]
Bim: DDA (similar to ADA) is only thing we have
17:12:33 [AllanJ]
zakim, take up item 5
17:12:33 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "ACTION-325 - 3.3.2 Location in Hierarchy" taken up [from AllanJ]
17:19:01 [patrickhlauke]
Simon: if a hierarchy is not marked up hierarchically in the HTML etc, but is only faked via CSS, the browser needs to create a simplified hierarchy...
17:19:16 [AllanJ]
SH: perhaps should be in 4.7 per GregL message.
17:19:22 [patrickhlauke]
AllanJ: are we happy with comment by Greg to move this to 4.7?
17:19:26 [AllanJ]
+1
17:19:29 [patrickhlauke]
+1
17:19:52 [AllanJ]
Bim and Kim +1
17:20:34 [patrickhlauke]
Bim: ...avoiding duplication and clearly separating the intents
17:20:58 [patrickhlauke]
Kim: happy with it as it basically says "you need to tag things properly"
17:21:25 [patrickhlauke]
can we cross-reference 3.1 to 4.7?
17:22:36 [jeanne]
Action: Jeanne to move 3.3.2 to 4.7 and add a resource to Implementing 3.3.1 that links to the new location for former 3.3.2
17:22:37 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-338 - Move 3.3.2 to 4.7 and add a resource to Implementing 3.3.1 that links to the new location for former 3.3.2 [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-04-08].
17:23:25 [AllanJ]
PL: what is browser mechanism to make this happen. some algorithm to create a breadcrumb
17:24:19 [AllanJ]
SH: yes. Artist, Album, track, song name. if it makes up its own structure, then it should share that implied structure.
17:25:15 [AllanJ]
PL: so the UA would build its own model, from its implied structure
17:26:17 [AllanJ]
...simple example. broken page with bad markup, it will repair and create its own markup.
17:26:34 [AllanJ]
it = browser
17:29:13 [AllanJ]
PL: this would only apply when there is no structure. Author coding vs browser inference. Author must follow WCAG
17:31:04 [AllanJ]
PL: authoring tool should help repair content during writing of the code. browser should not infer meaning. too many variables
17:35:58 [AllanJ]
Discussion of browser repair functions and author responsibilities
17:36:41 [AllanJ]
BE: quirks mode, strange characters on the screen.
17:38:20 [patrickhlauke]
Patrick: request some time to put this back to list and flesh out some more
17:40:06 [patrickhlauke]
Patrick: danger at the moment that wording of 3.3.2 (even if moved) is too general and may not be possible in all cases (not all the time UA can infer a structure of visually positioned/presented items beyond knowing internally that there's a form of visual canvas and there are things positioned here and there, overlap a bit, etc)
17:40:57 [patrickhlauke]
AllanJ: move 3.3.2 as it is in current draft to 4.7 and we then work on rewording in situ?
17:40:59 [patrickhlauke]
+1
17:41:01 [patrickhlauke]
Bim: +1
17:41:08 [patrickhlauke]
AllanJ +1
17:41:13 [patrickhlauke]
Simon +1
17:41:24 [AllanJ]
zakim, agenda?
17:41:24 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
17:41:25 [Zakim]
1. U.S. Accessboard draft update to Sec 508 and 255 [from AllanJ]
17:41:27 [Zakim]
2. Discuss survey (start at 3.5.2) [from AllanJ]
17:41:29 [Zakim]
3. review 3.1.3 and 3.1.5 [from AllanJ]
17:41:30 [Zakim]
4. discussion of 3.3.1 [from AllanJ]
17:41:32 [Zakim]
5. ACTION-325 - 3.3.2 Location in Hierarchy [from AllanJ]
17:41:35 [AllanJ]
zakim, close item 1
17:41:35 [Zakim]
agendum 1, U.S. Accessboard draft update to Sec 508 and 255, closed
17:41:36 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:41:38 [Zakim]
2. Discuss survey (start at 3.5.2) [from AllanJ]
17:41:48 [AllanJ]
zakim, close item 5
17:41:48 [Zakim]
agendum 5, ACTION-325 - 3.3.2 Location in Hierarchy, closed
17:41:49 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:41:51 [Zakim]
2. Discuss survey (start at 3.5.2) [from AllanJ]
17:43:18 [patrickhlauke]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/
17:43:37 [AllanJ]
zakim, take up item 2
17:43:37 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Discuss survey (start at 3.5.2)" taken up [from AllanJ]
17:43:54 [AllanJ]
topic 3.5.2 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq11
17:44:09 [patrickhlauke]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2010/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20100226/#gl-interaction-highlight
17:45:01 [patrickhlauke]
text in pink from that to discuss
17:45:03 [patrickhlauke]
Intent of Success Criterion 3.5.2:
17:45:03 [patrickhlauke]
A low vision user needs control over what visual elements work best for highlighting. These include foreground colors, background colors, and visual borders.
17:45:03 [patrickhlauke]
Examples of Success Criterion 3.5.2:
17:45:03 [patrickhlauke]
A low vision wants to know where the text boxes are on a web form. The user wants to set a thick black border around all text boxes. The user agent provides a dialog box allowing the user to override any author settings.
17:45:04 [patrickhlauke]
Related Resources for Success Criterion 3.5.2:
17:45:06 [patrickhlauke]
To be written
17:46:53 [patrickhlauke]
Patrick: small change in example "A low vision USER wants to know..."
17:47:22 [jeanne]
action: jeanne to fix Examples of SC 3.5.2 to fix small change in example "A low vision USER wants to know..."
17:47:22 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-339 - Fix Examples of SC 3.5.2 to fix small change in example "A low vision USER wants to know..." [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-04-08].
17:50:14 [patrickhlauke]
AllanJ: is this at risk of being too complex, requiring user agents to provide a rich dialog to style all sorts of visual highlight aspects?
17:50:27 [patrickhlauke]
Bim: we want to keep at least foreground/background
17:51:41 [patrickhlauke]
AllanJ: maybe not borders, but focus
17:51:43 [patrickhlauke]
Kim +1
17:51:55 [AllanJ]
Jeanne +1
17:52:06 [AllanJ]
JA +1
17:52:16 [sharper]
SH +1
17:52:38 [patrickhlauke]
I'd like to see something along the lines of: visual indication of focus
17:53:32 [patrickhlauke]
AllanJ: particularly now that web authors do things like removing outline on focus
17:53:51 [patrickhlauke]
Bim: +1 for users having control to override web authors
17:56:05 [patrickhlauke]
Kim: don't just make it keyboard focus though
17:56:20 [AllanJ]
discussion of keyboard focus, tab focus, mouse focus.
17:58:11 [AllanJ]
PL: need to be more general 'visual indicator of focus' so we don't exclude anybody
17:59:08 [patrickhlauke]
Patrick: if keyboard input focus is broad enough to mention in this text without excluding cursor focus with mouse then fine
17:59:21 [patrickhlauke]
AllanJ/Kim: it's just called input focus
17:59:45 [patrickhlauke]
Patrick: in that case +1 for using "input focus" in the wording for 3.5.2
18:00:21 [patrickhlauke]
AllanJ: action for jeanne to change 3.5.2
18:00:25 [jeanne]
action: Jeanne to change 3.5.2 to change (c) from "borders" to "input focus"
18:00:25 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-340 - Change 3.5.2 to change (c) from "borders" to "input focus" [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-04-08].
18:00:25 [Zakim]
-sharper
18:00:59 [patrickhlauke]
AllanJ: moving to 3.6.1 - 3.6.4
18:01:08 [patrickhlauke]
AllanJ: Greg had suggestions
18:01:37 [patrickhlauke]
AllanJ: that's our next topic, have to review these
18:01:42 [AllanJ]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JanMar/0072.html
18:01:57 [AllanJ]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009AprJun/0058.html
18:02:25 [AllanJ]
Topic: 3.6.1 - 3.6.4
18:02:27 [patrickhlauke]
AllanJ: don't think we had discussion of those on list
18:06:31 [AllanJ]
discussion of 0072 email. and conflict with iso.
18:07:31 [AllanJ]
PL: Example 1 not relevant to UAAG, example 2 is relevant and implemented
18:11:41 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
18:12:13 [patrickhlauke]
PL: suggest NOT implementing Greg's suggested change, as OPTION to keep distinction in size also means that UAs need to implement the "draft mode", which none do atm
18:12:16 [patrickhlauke]
+1
18:12:25 [patrickhlauke]
AllanJ: +1
18:12:27 [patrickhlauke]
Bim: +1
18:13:10 [patrickhlauke]
AllanJ: we don't have enough people to reach quorum
18:13:53 [patrickhlauke]
AllanJ: suggest ending here and picking up next time from here
18:14:18 [Zakim]
-PatrickLauke
18:14:19 [Zakim]
-KimPatch
18:14:38 [patrickhlauke]
patrickhlauke has left #ua
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-Jim_Allan
18:19:28 [Zakim]
-Bim_Egan
18:19:30 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
18:19:32 [Zakim]
Attendees were Jim_Allan, sharper, +0190476aaaa, Bim_Egan, +1.617.325.aabb, Jeanne, +1.617.325.aacc, KimPatch, PatrickLauke
18:21:19 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:21:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/01-ua-minutes.html AllanJ
18:21:31 [AllanJ]
zakim, please part
18:21:31 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
18:21:43 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:21:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/01-ua-minutes.html AllanJ
18:22:51 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, please part
18:22:51 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/01-ua-actions.rdf :
18:22:51 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne to move 3.3.2 to 4.7 and add a resource to Implementing 3.3.1 that links to the new location for former 3.3.2 [1]
18:22:51 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/01-ua-irc#T17-22-36
18:22:51 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to fix Examples of SC 3.5.2 to fix small change in example "A low vision USER wants to know..." [2]
18:22:51 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/01-ua-irc#T17-47-22
18:22:51 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne to change 3.5.2 to change (c) from "borders" to "input focus" [3]
18:22:51 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/01-ua-irc#T18-00-25