16:40:34 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:40:34 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/04/01-ua-irc
16:40:36 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:40:36 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ua
16:40:38 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:40:38 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 20 minutes
16:40:39 <trackbot> Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:40:39 <trackbot> Date: 01 April 2010
16:41:01 <AllanJ> chair: Jim_Allan, Kelly_Ford
16:45:11 <Bim> Bim has joined #UA
16:57:31 <sharper> sharper has joined #ua
16:57:43 <sharper> zakim, code?
16:57:43 <Zakim> the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), sharper
16:58:17 <Zakim> WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
16:58:24 <Zakim> +Jim_Allan
16:59:14 <AllanJ> Agenda+ U.S. Accessboard draft update to Sec 508 and 255
16:59:15 <AllanJ> http://www.access-board.gov/sec508/refresh/draft-rule.htm
16:59:17 <AllanJ> Agenda+ Discuss survey  (start at 3.5.2)
16:59:18 <AllanJ> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/
16:59:20 <AllanJ> Agenda+ review 3.1.3 and 3.1.5
16:59:21 <AllanJ> Agenda+ discussion of 3.3.1
16:59:35 <AllanJ> Agenda+ ACTION-325 - 3.3.2 Location in Hierarchy
16:59:44 <Zakim> +??P6
16:59:46 <sharper> zakim, ??P6 is sharper
16:59:46 <Zakim> +sharper; got it
17:01:03 <Zakim> + +0190476aaaa
17:01:57 <KimPatch> KimPatch has joined #ua
17:01:59 <AllanJ> zakim, aaaa is really Bim_Egan
17:01:59 <Zakim> +Bim_Egan; got it
17:03:08 <Zakim> + +1.617.325.aabb
17:03:10 <Zakim> - +1.617.325.aabb
17:03:13 <Zakim> +??P12
17:03:21 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #ua
17:04:07 <jeanne> zakim, code?
17:04:07 <Zakim> the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne
17:04:17 <Zakim> +Jeanne
17:04:43 <patrickhlauke> patrickhlauke has joined #ua
17:04:55 <Zakim> + +1.617.325.aacc
17:05:12 <AllanJ> zakim, aacc is really KimPatch
17:05:12 <Zakim> +KimPatch; got it
17:05:35 <AllanJ> zakim, p12 is really PatrickLauke
17:05:35 <Zakim> sorry, AllanJ, I do not recognize a party named 'p12'
17:05:48 <AllanJ> zakim, ??p12 is really PatrickLauke
17:05:48 <Zakim> +PatrickLauke; got it
17:05:59 <Zakim> -PatrickLauke
17:06:20 <kford> kford has joined #ua
17:06:32 <AllanJ> regrets: GregL, MarkH
17:06:33 <Zakim> +??P1
17:06:48 <kford> I can monitor IRC during my conflict.
17:06:55 <AllanJ> zakim, ??p1 is really PatrickLauke
17:06:55 <Zakim> +PatrickLauke; got it
17:08:53 <AllanJ> scribe: PatrickLauke
17:09:05 <AllanJ> zakim, agenda:
17:09:05 <Zakim> I don't understand 'agenda:', AllanJ
17:09:09 <AllanJ> zakim, agenda?
17:09:09 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
17:09:10 <Zakim> 1. U.S. Accessboard draft update to Sec 508 and 255 [from AllanJ]
17:09:11 <Zakim> 2. Discuss survey  (start at 3.5.2) [from AllanJ]
17:09:13 <Zakim> 3. review 3.1.3 and 3.1.5 [from AllanJ]
17:09:15 <Zakim> 4. discussion of 3.3.1 [from AllanJ]
17:09:17 <Zakim> 5. ACTION-325 - 3.3.2 Location in Hierarchy [from AllanJ]
17:10:48 <patrickhlauke> Judy is looking at draft response, particularly for keyboard access. 508 going to mirror pretty much WCAG and looking to include user agent stuff
17:11:36 <patrickhlauke> Bim: 508 won't affect UK, we don't have any similar legislation
17:11:58 <patrickhlauke> Bim: DDA (similar to ADA) is only thing we have
17:12:33 <AllanJ> zakim, take up item 5
17:12:33 <Zakim> agendum 5. "ACTION-325 - 3.3.2 Location in Hierarchy" taken up [from AllanJ]
17:19:01 <patrickhlauke> Simon: if a hierarchy is not marked up hierarchically in the HTML etc, but is only faked via CSS, the browser needs to create a simplified hierarchy...
17:19:16 <AllanJ> SH: perhaps should be in 4.7 per GregL message.
17:19:22 <patrickhlauke> AllanJ: are we happy with comment by Greg to move this to 4.7?
17:19:26 <AllanJ> +1
17:19:29 <patrickhlauke> +1
17:19:52 <AllanJ> Bim and Kim +1
17:20:34 <patrickhlauke> Bim: ...avoiding duplication and clearly separating the intents
17:20:58 <patrickhlauke> Kim: happy with it as it basically says "you need to tag things properly"
17:21:25 <patrickhlauke> can we cross-reference 3.1 to 4.7?
17:22:36 <jeanne> Action: Jeanne to move 3.3.2 to 4.7 and add a resource to Implementing 3.3.1 that links to the new location for former 3.3.2
17:22:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-338 - Move 3.3.2 to 4.7 and add a resource to Implementing 3.3.1 that links to the new location for former 3.3.2 [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-04-08].
17:23:25 <AllanJ> PL: what is browser mechanism to make this happen. some algorithm to create a breadcrumb
17:24:19 <AllanJ> SH: yes. Artist, Album, track, song name. if it makes up its own structure, then it should share that implied structure.
17:25:15 <AllanJ> PL: so the UA would build its own model, from its implied structure
17:26:17 <AllanJ> ...simple example. broken page with bad markup, it will repair and create its own markup. 
17:26:34 <AllanJ> it = browser
17:29:13 <AllanJ> PL: this would only apply when there is no structure. Author coding vs browser inference. Author must follow WCAG
17:31:04 <AllanJ> PL: authoring tool should help repair content during writing of the code. browser should not infer meaning. too many variables
17:35:58 <AllanJ> Discussion of browser repair functions and author responsibilities
17:36:41 <AllanJ> BE: quirks mode, strange characters on the screen.
17:38:20 <patrickhlauke> Patrick: request some time to put this back to list and flesh out some more
17:40:06 <patrickhlauke> Patrick: danger at the moment that wording of 3.3.2 (even if moved) is too general and may not be possible in all cases (not all the time UA can infer a structure of visually positioned/presented items beyond knowing internally that there's a form of visual canvas and there are things positioned here and there, overlap a bit, etc)
17:40:57 <patrickhlauke> AllanJ: move 3.3.2 as it is in current draft to 4.7 and we then work on rewording in situ?
17:40:59 <patrickhlauke> +1
17:41:01 <patrickhlauke> Bim: +1
17:41:08 <patrickhlauke> AllanJ +1
17:41:13 <patrickhlauke> Simon +1
17:41:24 <AllanJ> zakim, agenda?
17:41:24 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
17:41:25 <Zakim> 1. U.S. Accessboard draft update to Sec 508 and 255 [from AllanJ]
17:41:27 <Zakim> 2. Discuss survey  (start at 3.5.2) [from AllanJ]
17:41:29 <Zakim> 3. review 3.1.3 and 3.1.5 [from AllanJ]
17:41:30 <Zakim> 4. discussion of 3.3.1 [from AllanJ]
17:41:32 <Zakim> 5. ACTION-325 - 3.3.2 Location in Hierarchy [from AllanJ]
17:41:35 <AllanJ> zakim, close item 1
17:41:35 <Zakim> agendum 1, U.S. Accessboard draft update to Sec 508 and 255, closed
17:41:36 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:41:38 <Zakim> 2. Discuss survey  (start at 3.5.2) [from AllanJ]
17:41:48 <AllanJ> zakim, close item 5
17:41:48 <Zakim> agendum 5, ACTION-325 - 3.3.2 Location in Hierarchy, closed
17:41:49 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:41:51 <Zakim> 2. Discuss survey  (start at 3.5.2) [from AllanJ]
17:43:18 <patrickhlauke> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/
17:43:37 <AllanJ> zakim, take up item 2
17:43:37 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Discuss survey  (start at 3.5.2)" taken up [from AllanJ]
17:43:54 <AllanJ> topic 3.5.2 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq11
17:44:09 <patrickhlauke> http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2010/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20100226/#gl-interaction-highlight
17:45:01 <patrickhlauke> text in pink from that to discuss
17:45:03 <patrickhlauke> Intent of Success Criterion 3.5.2: 
17:45:03 <patrickhlauke> A low vision user needs control over what visual elements work best for highlighting. These include foreground colors, background colors, and visual borders. 
17:45:03 <patrickhlauke> Examples of Success Criterion 3.5.2: 
17:45:03 <patrickhlauke> A low vision wants to know where the text boxes are on a web form. The user wants to set a thick black border around all text boxes. The user agent provides a dialog box allowing the user to override any author settings. 
17:45:04 <patrickhlauke> Related Resources for Success Criterion 3.5.2: 
17:45:06 <patrickhlauke> To be written
17:46:53 <patrickhlauke> Patrick: small change in example "A low vision USER wants to know..."
17:47:22 <jeanne> action: jeanne to fix Examples of SC 3.5.2 to fix small change in example "A low vision USER wants to know..."
17:47:22 <trackbot> Created ACTION-339 - Fix Examples of SC 3.5.2 to fix small change in example "A low vision USER wants to know..." [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-04-08].
17:50:14 <patrickhlauke> AllanJ: is this at risk of being too complex, requiring user agents to provide a rich dialog to style all sorts of visual highlight aspects?
17:50:27 <patrickhlauke> Bim: we want to keep at least foreground/background
17:51:41 <patrickhlauke> AllanJ: maybe not borders, but focus
17:51:43 <patrickhlauke> Kim +1
17:51:55 <AllanJ> Jeanne +1
17:52:06 <AllanJ> JA +1
17:52:16 <sharper> SH +1
17:52:38 <patrickhlauke> I'd like to see something along the lines of: visual indication of focus
17:53:32 <patrickhlauke> AllanJ: particularly now that web authors do things like removing outline on focus
17:53:51 <patrickhlauke> Bim: +1 for users having control to override web authors
17:56:05 <patrickhlauke> Kim: don't just make it keyboard focus though
17:56:20 <AllanJ> discussion of keyboard focus, tab focus, mouse focus.
17:58:11 <AllanJ> PL: need to be more general 'visual indicator of focus' so we don't exclude anybody
17:59:08 <patrickhlauke> Patrick: if keyboard input focus is broad enough to mention in this text without excluding cursor focus with mouse then fine
17:59:21 <patrickhlauke> AllanJ/Kim: it's just called input focus
17:59:45 <patrickhlauke> Patrick: in that case +1 for using "input focus" in the wording for 3.5.2
18:00:21 <patrickhlauke> AllanJ: action for jeanne to change 3.5.2 
18:00:25 <jeanne> action: Jeanne to change 3.5.2 to change (c) from "borders" to "input focus" 
18:00:25 <trackbot> Created ACTION-340 - Change 3.5.2 to change (c) from "borders" to "input focus"  [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-04-08].
18:00:25 <Zakim> -sharper
18:00:59 <patrickhlauke> AllanJ: moving to 3.6.1 - 3.6.4
18:01:08 <patrickhlauke> AllanJ: Greg had suggestions
18:01:37 <patrickhlauke> AllanJ: that's our next topic, have to review these
18:01:42 <AllanJ> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JanMar/0072.html
18:01:57 <AllanJ> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2009AprJun/0058.html
18:02:25 <AllanJ> Topic: 3.6.1 - 3.6.4
18:02:27 <patrickhlauke> AllanJ: don't think we had discussion of those on list
18:06:31 <AllanJ> discussion of 0072 email. and conflict with iso.
18:07:31 <AllanJ> PL: Example 1 not relevant to UAAG, example 2 is relevant and implemented
18:11:41 <Zakim> -Jeanne
18:12:13 <patrickhlauke> PL: suggest NOT implementing Greg's suggested change, as OPTION to keep distinction in size also means that UAs need to implement the "draft mode", which none do atm
18:12:16 <patrickhlauke> +1
18:12:25 <patrickhlauke> AllanJ: +1
18:12:27 <patrickhlauke> Bim: +1
18:13:10 <patrickhlauke> AllanJ: we don't have enough people to reach quorum
18:13:53 <patrickhlauke> AllanJ: suggest ending here and picking up next time from here
18:14:18 <Zakim> -PatrickLauke
18:14:19 <Zakim> -KimPatch
18:14:38 <patrickhlauke> patrickhlauke has left #ua
18:19:27 <Zakim> -Jim_Allan
18:19:28 <Zakim> -Bim_Egan
18:19:30 <Zakim> WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
18:19:32 <Zakim> Attendees were Jim_Allan, sharper, +0190476aaaa, Bim_Egan, +1.617.325.aabb, Jeanne, +1.617.325.aacc, KimPatch, PatrickLauke
18:21:19 <AllanJ> rrsagent, make minutes
18:21:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/01-ua-minutes.html AllanJ
18:21:31 <AllanJ> zakim, please part
18:21:31 <Zakim> Zakim has left #ua
18:21:43 <AllanJ> rrsagent, make minutes
18:21:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/01-ua-minutes.html AllanJ
18:22:51 <AllanJ> rrsagent, please part
18:22:51 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/01-ua-actions.rdf :
18:22:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Jeanne to move 3.3.2 to 4.7 and add a resource to Implementing 3.3.1 that links to the new location for former 3.3.2 [1]
18:22:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/01-ua-irc#T17-22-36
18:22:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jeanne to fix Examples of SC 3.5.2 to fix small change in example "A low vision USER wants to know..." [2]
18:22:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/01-ua-irc#T17-47-22
18:22:51 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Jeanne to change 3.5.2 to change (c) from "borders" to "input focus"  [3]
18:22:51 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/04/01-ua-irc#T18-00-25