14:56:33 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
14:56:33 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/04/01-html-a11y-irc
14:56:35 RRSAgent, make logs world
14:56:35 Zakim has joined #html-a11y
14:56:37 Zakim, this will be 2119
14:56:37 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
14:56:38 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:56:38 Date: 01 April 2010
14:57:25 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Mar/0566.html
14:57:30 chair: Mike_Smith
14:57:53 agenda+ Actions Review
14:57:55 agenda+ Face to Face Planning http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/ftf_2010-04.html
14:57:56 agenda+ Issue 85: "ARIA roles added to the element" http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/85
14:57:58 agenda+ Canvas Subteam update: change proposals
14:57:59 agenda+ Media Subteam Update: requirements; API proposals
14:58:01 agenda+ Resolved & Rejected Bugs Review http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Mar/0564.html
14:58:02 agenda+ New Business
14:58:04 agenda+ next meetings, confirm date/time, choose scribe
14:58:16 WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has now started
14:58:23 +Gregory_Rosmaita
14:59:09 +[Microsoft]
14:59:33 + +1.408.307.aaaa
14:59:37 dboudreau has joined #html-a11y
14:59:46 paulc has joined #html-a11y
14:59:46 mornin' everyone
14:59:51 +John_Foliot
14:59:57 zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc
14:59:57 +paulc; got it
15:00:04 morning
15:00:08 agenda+ Actions Review
15:00:08 agenda+ Face to Face Planning http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/ftf_2010-04.html
15:00:08 agenda+ Issue 85: "ARIA roles added to the element" http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/85
15:00:08 agenda+ Canvas Subteam update: change proposals
15:00:08 agenda+ Media Subteam Update: requirements; API proposals
15:00:09 agenda+ Resolved & Rejected Bugs Review http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Mar/0564.html
15:00:12 agenda+ New Business
15:00:12 aloha!
15:00:14 agenda+ next meetings, confirm date/time, choose scribe
15:00:17 Zakim, call Mike
15:00:18 ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:00:20 +Mike
15:00:55 + +1.514.312.aabb
15:01:01 +??P9
15:01:04 janina has joined #html-a11y
15:01:20 +[Microsoft.a]
15:01:22 zakim, call janina
15:01:22 ok, janina; the call is being made
15:01:22 zakiim, +1.514 is Denis_Boudreau
15:01:22 agenda+ f2f venue change
15:01:32 +Janina
15:01:49 +[IPcaller]
15:01:53 zakim, who's on the phone?
15:01:54 +Michael_Cooper
15:01:56 On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita, [Microsoft], +1.408.307.aaaa, John_Foliot, Mike, +1.514.312.aabb (muted), ??P9, [Microsoft.a], Janina, [IPcaller], Michael_Cooper
15:01:59 [Microsoft] has paulc
15:02:06 zakim, microsoft is kford
15:02:07 zakim, +1.408 is Erik_Carlson
15:02:09 +kford; got it
15:02:11 +Erik_Carlson; got it
15:02:33 Eric_Carlson has joined #html-a11y
15:02:37 Stevef has joined #html-a11y
15:02:38 zakim, ??P9 is Marco_Ranon
15:02:38 +Marco_Ranon; got it
15:02:44 zakim, IPcaller is Steve_Faulkner
15:02:44 +Steve_Faulkner; got it
15:03:04 agenda+ discussion of recently raised HTML WG issues
15:03:11 drop item 1
15:03:13 drop item 2
15:03:14 drop item 3
15:03:16 drop item 4
15:03:17 drop item 5
15:03:22 drop item 6
15:03:25 drop item 7
15:03:27 drop item 8
15:03:38 richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
15:03:38 AllanJ has joined #html-a11y
15:04:11 jongunderson has joined #html-a11y
15:04:25 +Jon_Gunderson
15:04:27 +Sean_Hayes
15:04:29 + +31.20.625.aacc
15:04:33 +Cynthia_Shelly
15:04:37 brb
15:04:38 zakim, +31 is Dick_Bulterman
15:04:41 + +1.512.206.aadd
15:04:51 +Dick_Bulterman; got it
15:04:55 zakim, +1.512 is Jim_Allan
15:05:00 Sean has joined #html-a11y
15:05:01 +Rich
15:05:05 +Jim_Allan; got it
15:05:31 agenda+ discussion of recently raised HTML WG issues
15:05:50 action-1?
15:05:50 ACTION-1 -- Cynthia Shelly to write overall approach HTML support of ARIA -- due 2009-12-17 -- CLOSED
15:05:50 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/1
15:06:38 zakim, +1.514 is Denis_Boudreau
15:06:49 +Denis_Boudreau; got it
15:07:10 zakim, Microsoft.a has Paul_Cotton
15:07:10 +Paul_Cotton; got it
15:07:35 zakim, Paul is no longer with kford
15:07:35 Paul was not listed in kford, MichaelC
15:07:49 zakim, who is here?
15:07:49 On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita, kford, Erik_Carlson, John_Foliot, Mike, Denis_Boudreau (muted), Marco_Ranon, [Microsoft.a], Janina, Steve_Faulkner, Michael_Cooper,
15:07:53 ... Jon_Gunderson, Sean_Hayes, Dick_Bulterman (muted), Cynthia_Shelly, Jim_Allan, Rich
15:07:56 kford has paulc
15:07:57 [Microsoft.a] has Paul_Cotton
15:07:59 scribe: kford
15:08:01 On IRC I see Sean, jongunderson, AllanJ, richardschwerdtfe, Stevef, Eric_Carlson, janina, paulc, dboudreau, Zakim, RRSAgent, JF, oedipus, Marco_Ranon, kford, MikeSmith, MichaelC,
15:08:02 Scribe: KFord
15:08:04 ... trackbot
15:08:07 zakim, paulc is no longer with kford
15:08:08 -paulc; got it
15:08:13 Zakim, take up item 1
15:08:14 agendum 1. "Actions Review" taken up [from MichaelC]
15:08:17 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
15:08:37 kliehm has joined #html-a11y
15:08:47 + +49.693.650.5.aaee
15:08:47 We have a lot on the agenda so starting with priority items.
15:08:49 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/2
15:08:50 action-2?
15:08:50 ACTION-2 -- Cynthia Shelly to deliver draft of change proposal for ARIA additions to HTML 5 by 2009-12-24 -- due 2010-04-01 -- OPEN
15:08:50 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/2
15:08:57 Starting with action 2.
15:09:11 Any update from CS on this?
15:10:02 Group believes it will take to the summer to finish.
15:10:07 JonGund has joined #html-a11y
15:10:57 MS: Can we break this up a bit?
15:11:22 JS: We don't want to dribble in suggestions. What we do with one item may impact others. We've seen this in PF.
15:11:51 MS: Anything is better than saying July.
15:12:25 putting artificial time-constraints on the HTML TF is NOT going to help anyone -- we are WORKING on these issues and have been since HTML5 arrived within w3c
15:12:44 More discussion of implications of keeping actions open for extended time periods.
15:12:53 +1 there oedipus
15:12:56 CS: We are actively working. It will just take time.
15:13:10 PC: The working group isn't seeing your progress.
15:13:23 GR: That cuts both ways.
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15:13:47 PC: It would be helpful to show progress..
15:14:14 GJR: a11y can't be addressed piecemeal
15:14:26 MC: Explains how the group has been making progress. We have some work in a spreadsheet. Maybe we can make this available.
15:14:41 CS: We couold do this but I don't want to debate with the working group line by line.
15:14:59 CS: Debating details at this point is a concern.
15:15:23 CS: Maybe we could set a date for providing a higher level framework, such as the groups of mappings.
15:16:10 CS: Having the higher level discussion would be good, debating if anchor should override button now isn't.
15:16:21 problem is that HTML5 is being implemented piecemeal without addressing a11y concerns -- case in point CANVAS implementations BEFORE an accessible solution for CANVAS is available -- THAT is NOT helpful
15:16:42 look at the participants who are sponsored and those who are not
15:17:03 getting to last call means re-achieving the level of a11y in HTML5
15:17:05 MS: HTML5 chairs are tasked with getting to last call.
15:17:15 s/level of a11y in HTML5/HTML4
15:17:40 So why are we pushing this? A timeline was proposed - July - and thta's an answer
15:18:09 JS: You are picking one of the more complicated issues. DEoes this represent a larger frustration?
15:18:24 any entity that wants to pay for dedicated HTML5 a11y work is more then welcome to ante up some funds
15:18:28 rrsagent, amke minutes
15:18:28 I'm logging. I don't understand 'amke minutes', kford. Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:18:38 rrsagent, make minutes
15:18:38 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/01-html-a11y-minutes.html kford
15:19:54 More discussion between PC and JS around dates.
15:19:58 I understand the need to progress, but I do not appreciate putting such emotional pressure on people.
15:20:25 Q: do we want "success" or do we want to meet a deadline?
15:20:31 why is there a double-standard for what the TF does and what the WG does?
15:20:47 amen, JF - we want and DEMAND success
15:21:14 PC: I want people to understand what happened at the AC meeting last week.
15:21:26 the chairs also need to LISTEN to the tf members, not just top-down "do this according to my schedule"
15:21:40 PC: There is material in the report that calls the progress slow and steady.
15:22:09 PC: Issues owned by the accessibility task force have been identified as the long trail.
15:22:30 we are being punished for the dysfunctionality of the HTML WG prior to the present change in chairs, editors
15:23:03 RRSAgent, make minutes
15:23:03 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/01-html-a11y-minutes.html MikeSmith
15:24:30 CS: Do we need to shift more effort to this and put other items on the back burner like summary?
15:24:40 while this is going on, we are NOT addressing any of the agenda items -- this meta-discussion EVERY week isn't helpful at all
15:25:36 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/ftf_2010-04.html
15:25:48 Discussion around whether accessibility mappings should get talked about at F2F.
15:26:52 q+
15:27:09 q?
15:27:19 ack Stevef
15:27:20 JS Outlines goals of F2F.
15:27:33 q+
15:27:36 process has now monopolized HALF the meeting time
15:27:49 ack Stevef
15:28:20 q+ to say we could have sub-groups for part of the agenda next week
15:28:56 q+ to say I'm concerned that some of the frustrations expressed in IRC will escalate tension later, when we want to de-escalate
15:29:20 ack MichaelC
15:29:20 MichaelC, you wanted to say we could have sub-groups for part of the agenda next week and to say I'm concerned that some of the frustrations expressed in IRC will escalate tension
15:29:26 ... later, when we want to de-escalate
15:29:44 MC: Proposes that that subgroups are used to help make progress.
15:30:13 i stand by my comments in IRC and by voice
15:30:15 then let's plan for progress, not for hitting some artificial deadline
15:30:52 Judy has joined #html-a11y
15:31:01 MS: We've spent a lot of time here. We should get back to the agenda.
15:31:37 /me who is speaking?
15:31:41 dick bulterman
15:31:57 MikeSmith has joined #html-a11y
15:32:18 /me GR can you summarize his comment?
15:32:46 DB: how can i help advance discussion on media issues -- will there be time at the f2f if i push issues to the public-html list
15:32:50 MS: that would be useful
15:32:53 take up item 2
15:33:01 DD: Asks how to make progress on some of his issues. Suggestion is to bring it to the list.
15:33:14 s/DD: Asks/DB: Asks
15:33:37 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/01-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:34:01 take up item 18
15:34:01 MS: Please look at the agenda, if you have proposed changes we should know about them.
15:34:11 take up item 17
15:34:16 MS: Note F2F venue has changed.
15:34:36 the bentley suite = http://www.holidayinn.com/hotels/gb/en/birmingham/bhxwm/hoteldetail
15:34:43 -kliehm
15:34:49 MC: Meeting page has details.. Meeting is at Holiday Inn, couple blocks from original location.
15:35:03 http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/2010/dispute.html
15:35:20 MC: May also be a possible rail strike. Be aware if this could impact you.
15:35:28 item 3
15:35:29 rrsagent, amke minutes
15:35:29 I'm logging. I don't understand 'amke minutes', kford. Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:35:39 Zakim, take up item 3
15:35:39 agendum 3. "Issue 85: "ARIA roles added to the element" http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/85" taken up [from MichaelC]
15:35:45 s/rrsagent, amke minutes//
15:35:52 +kliehm
15:36:02 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/01-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:36:24 ISSUE-85 escalated from bug: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8000
15:36:24 ISSUE-85 escalated from bug: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8000
15:36:35 zakim, take up item 4
15:36:35 agendum 4. "Canvas Subteam update: change proposals" taken up [from MichaelC]
15:36:36 CS: We are cranking through this. We made progress at a recent PF F2F.
15:36:55 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Canvas
15:37:01 MS: Rich, for canvas we are waiting for work around focus to be done.
15:37:32 RS: What we need to do expose blink rate to the API so we don't cause issues.
15:37:52 RS: Hope to be working on this during travel.
15:38:15 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Mar/0014.html
15:38:49 change proposal (SteveF) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Mar/0088.html
15:39:23 RS: The item at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Mar/0014.html has been sent to the list. Haven't heard much, what's the status. Can we propose this?
15:40:23 RS: A change may be coming but that shouldn't blick this item.
15:40:39 s/blick/block/
15:40:40 s/blick/block
15:41:05 rrsagent, make minutes
15:41:05 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/04/01-html-a11y-minutes.html kford
15:41:21 which wg isse is being discussed?
15:41:25 for focus rectangle and caret http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Mar/0088.html
15:41:27 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Mar/0435.html
15:41:44 action-12 paulc
15:42:14 this is for HTML WG issue 74
15:42:40 http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-074
15:42:55 take up item 5
15:43:33 MS We have a couple proposals that are out there.
15:43:33 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Mar/0562.html
15:44:48 /me not hearing EC, can someone capture what he said?
15:45:00 http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_TextAssociations
15:45:09 EC: hope to have something written up for face2face on Media Text Associations
15:45:17 MS: Media Text Associations?
15:45:25 EC: correct
15:45:31 -kford
15:45:34 EC: this is issue we've been talking about
15:45:52 MS: not clear where blockage is on this proposal
15:45:58 MS: Not clear what this proposal is blocked on.
15:46:00 MS: would like to send out CFC on it
15:46:14 +[Microsoft]
15:46:17