IRC log of CSS on 2010-03-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:47:08 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #CSS
15:47:08 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:47:15 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
15:47:15 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 13 minutes
15:47:24 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:50:22 [sylvaing]
sylvaing has joined #css
15:52:11 [oyvind]
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15:56:35 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:56:42 [Zakim]
15:58:15 [glazou]
phone problems again
15:58:44 [dethbakin]
dethbakin has joined #css
15:58:50 [howcome]
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15:59:22 [Zakim]
15:59:52 [Zakim]
+ +47.21.65.aaaa
16:00:00 [Zakim]
16:00:13 [Zakim]
16:00:18 [plinss]
zakim, aaaa is howcome
16:00:18 [Zakim]
+howcome; got it
16:00:29 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.253.aabb
16:00:35 [TabAtkins]
Zakim, aabb is me
16:00:36 [Zakim]
+TabAtkins; got it
16:00:50 [arronei]
zakim, Microsoft is me
16:00:51 [Zakim]
+arronei; got it
16:00:52 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.650.aacc
16:00:57 [Zakim]
16:01:02 [ChrisL]
ChrisL has joined #css
16:01:11 [dethbakin]
+1.617.650.aacc is me
16:01:26 [glazou]
Zakim, aacc is dethbakin
16:01:26 [Zakim]
+dethbakin; got it
16:01:42 [dethbakin]
thanks glazou :-)
16:01:46 [glazou]
16:02:30 [glazou]
Zakim, who is here?
16:02:30 [Zakim]
On the phone I see plinss, sylvaing, howcome, glazou, arronei, TabAtkins, dethbakin, bradk
16:02:34 [Zakim]
On IRC I see ChrisL, howcome, dethbakin, bradk, oyvind, sylvaing, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, TabAtkins, dydz, shepazu, szilles, jdaggett_zzz, Lachy, fantasai, anne, dbaron, arronei,
16:02:37 [Zakim]
... krijnh, karl, jgraham, Hixie, jdaggett_away, Bert, plinss, trackbot
16:02:42 [Zakim]
16:02:59 [smfr]
smfr has joined #css
16:03:00 [ChrisL]
zakim, code?
16:03:02 [Zakim]
the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), ChrisL
16:04:15 [TabAtkins]
16:04:28 [glazou]
raises affiliation question...
16:04:30 [Zakim]
16:04:43 [Zakim]
16:04:54 [bradk]
Google dogfood?
16:05:33 [glazou]
happens all the time
16:06:29 [TabAtkins]
Scribenick: TabAtkins
16:06:48 [Zakim]
16:07:03 [TabAtkins]
glazou: If you're attending the ftf and haven't notified anyone at apple, please do so.
16:07:18 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Bert is going to organize a social event on tuesday night, please rsvp
16:07:29 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Most of us will be in town on Sunday, can we meet for dinner?
16:07:49 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Meet at Cupertino Inn at 7pm and find a place.
16:08:11 [smfr]
dbaron: rsvp on the day should be fine
16:08:15 [ChrisL]
I land at 21:45 so thats too late for diner by the time I get from sfo to cupertino
16:08:19 [TabAtkins]
howcome: Any additional registration requirements beyond the attendance form?
16:08:37 [TabAtkins]
glazou: No, if you said you would attend Tues night on the form, it's fine.
16:08:50 [ChrisL]
daniel, the phone I am using is not generating tone dials so i can't get zakim to recognise the conference code
16:09:01 [dbaron]
I'm also arriving in town too late to meet for dinner
16:09:03 [TabAtkins]
glazou: extra agenda items?
16:09:19 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Request from jdaggett to defer the font-size-adjust issue to the ftf.
16:09:28 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Elika, any problem?
16:09:56 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: It was dbaron's idea, actually.
16:10:08 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Test suite!
16:10:13 [plinss]
zakim, [microsoft] has fantasai
16:10:13 [Zakim]
sorry, plinss, I do not recognize a party named '[microsoft]'
16:10:19 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Peter and I have an update on the i18n tests from Ishida.
16:10:38 [TabAtkins]
glazou: He showed me evidence that he began proposing his tests a year ago, so we can acccept his tests.
16:10:52 [TabAtkins]
glazou: They were ready months ago; this wasn't someething that just popped up
16:11:13 [TabAtkins]
arronei: I looked over the tests. They need some small tweaks, but otherwise should be able to be put right in.
16:11:26 [sylvaing]
Registration form at includes tuesday social RSVP
16:11:40 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Anything else on the test suite?
16:11:46 [Zakim]
+ +1.919.374.aadd
16:11:55 [TabAtkins]
arronei: Just need more people to review the suite.
16:12:01 [ChrisL]
zakim, aadd is me
16:12:01 [Zakim]
+ChrisL; got it
16:12:14 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: If you review and it's good, please let me know (obviously, tell us if it's bad).
16:12:19 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: Location of the test cases?
16:12:32 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: /Style/CSS/Test, you can get to it from there
16:13:07 [TabAtkins]
glazou: We have 2 relatively big items on the agenda, and several minor ones. Let's start with the minors and maybe leave majors for ftf.
16:13:11 [TabAtkins]
everyone: yes
16:13:22 [TabAtkins]
glazou: First is from sylvain, about escaping commas in unquoted urls.
16:13:47 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: Essentially, part of the prose appears to be out of sync with tokenization rules.
16:14:11 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: In URIs you need to escape commas, but that's not true, such as with data: uris with a comma before the base64 bit.
16:14:25 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: We ran into this when we tried to implement the mandatory escaping, so the prose is out of place.
16:14:48 [TabAtkins]
ChrisL: In a data URI, the comma is in a known position. You can parse it because you know exactly where that should be.
16:15:00 [TabAtkins]
ChrisL: Does this appear in other uri schemes or just data?
16:15:08 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: Plenty of http uris with commas in the file names
16:15:14 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: CSS parsers uniformly accept them.
16:15:35 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: Don't know offhand of examples of using it in the CSS; I see it often in page urls.
16:15:50 [dbaron]
See e.g., the "United News and Deals" URLs on
16:16:02 [TabAtkins]
ChrisL: The CSS parser isn't tripping up on that, right? So the grammar/parser is fine, but the prose is wrong?
16:16:16 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: Yeah, we need to fix the prose.
16:16:30 [TabAtkins]
ChrisL: So what exactly needs to be removed?
16:16:46 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: The prose lists what needs to be escaped, we just need to remove the commas. Everything else the prose lists is fine.
16:16:50 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Objections?
16:16:53 [TabAtkins]
everyone: no.
16:17:03 [ChrisL]
just checking that the othetrs listed were all correct
16:17:12 [TabAtkins]
RESOLVED: Change prose of URI production to match the grammar, dropping the requirement to escape commas.
16:17:16 [glazou]
16:17:32 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Request to review the View Modes spec.
16:17:53 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Saying we need an event-based part of the spec, not just basing it on media queries.
16:18:00 [TabAtkins]
glazou: So let's send comments in 2 weeks time.
16:18:16 [glazou]
16:18:17 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Next is clarification. nth-child and comments inside the argument.
16:18:35 [TabAtkins]
glazou: We never thought originally of comments inside the argument.
16:18:43 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Tokenization rules allow comments everywhere.
16:18:56 [TabAtkins]
glazou: From a "respect to the spec", we should allow comments everywhere.
16:19:19 [TabAtkins]
glazou: But also the an+b parsing is already very complex, and I wonder if it is worthwhile to allow another level of complexity.
16:19:24 [TabAtkins]
glazou: I don't care either way.
16:19:49 [TabAtkins]
ChrisL: It currently says comments everywhere between tokens; I'd be unhappy if it said "most comments between most tokens".
16:20:00 [Zakim]
16:20:02 [TabAtkins]
ChrisL: We'd have to make it a single atomic token, if we want to be consistent.
16:20:14 [Bert]
zakim, danny is me
16:20:14 [Zakim]
+Bert; got it
16:20:24 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: And then we just have to detail the production of an+b in prose?
16:20:29 [TabAtkins]
ChrisL: Sounds like it.
16:20:42 [TabAtkins]
howcome: Comment from an opera dev, he thinks the definition of the n term is wrong.
16:21:03 [TabAtkins]
howcome: He thinks that using the terms odd and even is mixing up the grammar and lexer spec.
16:21:24 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: Two grammers in Selectors, one is general grammar you plug into selectors. The second is a more specific grammar for the an+b notation.
16:21:47 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: That one is not there to be a grammar so much, that you would plug into your parser, but rather to make sure the syntax is unambiguous.
16:22:07 [howcome]
First of all, an integer followed by an {N} will be tokenized as a
16:22:07 [howcome]
DIMENSION. The grammar above will match: "2/*comment*/n" but not "2n".
16:22:31 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Mozilla doesn't implement this grammar, frex, it tokenizes normally according to CSS.
16:22:57 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: Question for us is, in terms of that grammar does the an part of an+b have to tokenize as DIMENSION, or can it tokenize as NUMBER plus IDENT.
16:23:11 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: I think it should tokenize as dimension.
16:23:19 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: What's the technical difference?
16:23:46 [TabAtkins]
glazou: In DIMENSION you can't have a comment, NUMBER plus IDENT does.
16:24:07 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: If you accept NUMBER plus IDENT you'd accept "2 n", which is wrong.
16:24:46 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: No, because we wouldn't look for whitespace.
16:25:07 [TabAtkins]
howcome: I just pasted in my developer's feedback; he says that the grammar will match 2/*comment*/n, but *not* 2n.
16:25:36 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: I think DIMENSION would be better, since if I put a comment in there, I expect whitespace to be there too.
16:25:44 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: He missed the DIMENSION token.
16:25:58 [TabAtkins]
glazou: He looked just at the special subgrammar, not as the normal CSS tokenization.
16:26:47 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: I think we should clarify that it should parse as a dimension.
16:26:55 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: And we should clarify where comments are allowed.
16:27:19 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: So based on the real grammar, we should be allowing comments between n the sign, and between sign and b.
16:27:25 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: I think that's not really the way to fix it.
16:27:44 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: I don't think we want a grammar for an+b to describe where the comments can go.
16:28:10 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: We should describe that the an+b does *not* describe a grammar itself, that you should accept normal CSS tokens.
16:28:27 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: And that the an+b grammar is just a restriction.
16:29:27 [TabAtkins]
glazou: So we specify that the first token has to start with n or - or be a dimension.
16:29:32 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: So comments are not allowed?
16:29:40 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Not between the a and the n.
16:29:54 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: comments wherever there is a space token allowed.
16:30:14 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: We can add a comment that we expect the an part to tokenize as a dimension or an identifier.
16:30:27 [dbaron]
Also, the whole thing can tokenize as a dimension/identifier, e.g., n-1 is an identifier and 2n-1 is a dimension.
16:30:36 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: Extra problem we ran into. We keep implementing something, and then someone says, "Oh, that's the wrong grammar!".
16:30:51 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: Too much arcane knowledge about which grammar overrides what. This is a problem.
16:31:14 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: Seems easy for implementors to get this wrong, for them to implement a subgrammar that should only be informative, etc.
16:31:33 [TabAtkins]
howcome: Agree that it should be clearly labled to supplement the prose.
16:31:42 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: Yeah, it's not a *huge* problem, but it happens regularly.
16:32:02 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: Now that we have modules, it's more broken apart, and we need to be more clear about it.
16:32:28 [TabAtkins]
ChrisL: That should be easily dealt with by putting in an informative sentence that says, "Aspects of this grammar are modified by the grammar/prose over at XXX."
16:32:51 [TabAtkins]
ChrisL: We should know all the grammar details while writing something.
16:33:24 [TabAtkins]
ACTION glazou: Revise prose in an+b section of nth-child to specify comments and productions.
16:33:24 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-208 - Revise prose in an+b section of nth-child to specify comments and productions. [on Daniel Glazman - due 2010-03-31].
16:33:44 [TabAtkins]
glazou: item 7 jdaggett asked to defer
16:34:00 [TabAtkins]
glazou: item 8 - someone again asking for comments with a //
16:34:09 [TabAtkins]
glazou: It's easier for authors and so on.
16:35:03 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: I used // comments a lot when I was first starting, and didn't notice errors since the invalid rule that it started got swallowed by } and such.
16:35:29 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Yeah, and it trips me up a lot when I switch between javascript and css
16:35:52 [TabAtkins]
howcome: This should have been there from the beginning, but don't have as much luxury to change it now.
16:36:12 [TabAtkins]
ChrisL: It already says comments are allowed anywhere, right? Could we just put this in?
16:36:37 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: It does break the forward-compatible grammar, in that old implementations will screw things up.
16:36:49 [dbaron]
... if they see a //-commented-out {
16:37:05 [TabAtkins]
plinss: It comes up once a year, and we always say no.
16:37:19 [TabAtkins]
glazou: That's not very satisfying.
16:37:36 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: We have comments, just not in the particular syntax that people want. I agree with Peter that it's probably too late now.
16:37:45 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: At this point it would likely cause too many problems to add.
16:37:49 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Okay, issue closed.
16:38:09 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Two items left, % height calculations and float bidi issues.
16:38:38 [glazou]
16:38:43 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: % height is helped by a whiteboard.
16:38:46 [glazou]
16:38:47 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Defer to ftf, then.
16:38:56 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Float bidi issues, then.
16:40:54 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: As far as I can tell, the first link is asking whether, when we float:start or end, the scrolling/overflow behavior of the containing box should change.
16:42:17 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: Frex, if you're in ltr and you ahve an auto left margin, it right-aligns the block if it's narrower than the container, but left-aligns if it's wider so you don't have content that's unscrollable.
16:42:42 [dbaron]
... and the question, I think, is whether we want to do the same thing for floats.
16:42:43 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: So the question is if we want to do the same thing for floats.
16:43:11 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: Last time we tested, I think some impls did this.
16:43:37 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: I think start and end should compute to a used value of left or right, and then should just act normally.
16:43:52 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: I agree. That means there's no issue?
16:44:06 [TabAtkins]
glazou: So, Elika, there's nothing to do?
16:44:20 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: dbaron's talking about a different issue, not actually related to start and end.
16:45:26 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: Yeah, the first email is indeed talking about something independent of float:start/end.
16:45:35 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Do we need to bring this up during ftf?
16:45:52 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: I think someone needs to write some tests and figure out what implementations do. I may have done it in the past.
16:46:03 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Let's defer this to a later time, then.
16:46:44 [TabAtkins]
glazou: Next email, we have left/right values for a lot of properties, but not start/end.
16:47:08 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: I think there's been discussion about padding/border before, and me and Elika separately did proposals for that.
16:47:21 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: outline isn't relevant, because we don't have outline:left/right.
16:47:37 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: We talked about background-position in a ftf.
16:47:55 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: We decided to deal with that at a higher level, because it may also touch on flipping the image and such.
16:48:01 [dbaron]
there was also a more recent thread on background-position
16:48:45 [TabAtkins]
glazou: David, how does mozilla implement margin/paddings in an rtl context?
16:48:48 [dbaron]
16:49:03 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: We implement -moz-margin-start, etc.
16:49:59 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: [something about changing what left/right/top/bottom refers to when changing writing direction]
16:50:47 [TabAtkins]
glazou: When a web author has to reverse the content of a webpage for rtl, he has to tweak the stylesheet.
16:50:56 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: I think that having margin-start, etc would be great.
16:51:44 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: There was was a proposal from Andrew to have :ltr and :rtl selectors that would select based on the direction information in the markup language (@dir in HTML).
16:52:07 [TabAtkins]
glazou: That's equivalent to writing two stylesheets, though.
16:52:35 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: I think we've got two proposals for *-start, etc, so we should discuss those. There are complex cascading issues.
16:52:42 [TabAtkins]
howcome: It's a can of worms. We don't want to go there.
16:52:51 [TabAtkins]
glazou: It's because you're not writing webpages in Arabic.
16:53:24 [TabAtkins]
howcome: Left is left and right is right in lebanon.
16:53:50 [TabAtkins]
howcome: You can use, say, the lang selector today to style differently.
16:54:17 [TabAtkins]
ChrisL: Not sufficient anyway. We have ltr languages, and then bidi languages, which are rtl some of the time and ltr others. You can't just reverse things unilaterally.
16:54:26 [sylvaing]
16:54:32 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: I'd like to bring up murakami-san's email.
16:54:47 [ChrisL]
others - meaning numerals, which are written ltr
16:54:55 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: Essentially, he noticed that some browsers like IE change top/bottom/left/right based on writing mode.
16:55:11 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: So if you're in japanese and set padding-top, it pushes your content to the left.
16:55:26 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: He proposed a way to detect this. It's hacky, but I understand what he's trying to solve.
16:55:40 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: He brought up an important issue - ebooks and epub, which is xhtml and css2.
16:56:02 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: People will address this themselves and come up with their own properties if we don't solve this ourselves.
16:56:33 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: I think that's a great point. I think we should definitely address this.
16:56:52 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: I think it was clear that the physical directions should be absolute - margin-top should always be the top margin.
16:57:05 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: If we need something to respond to the writing mode, it should be an appropriately-named property.
16:57:07 [TabAtkins]
everyone: yes
16:57:38 [TabAtkins]
glazou: All for today, have a safe trip, we'll meet at apple at 9am.
16:57:45 [Zakim]
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16:58:37 [Zakim]
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16:58:39 [Zakim]
16:58:40 [Zakim]
16:58:42 [Zakim]
16:58:48 [Zakim]
16:58:49 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
16:58:51 [Zakim]
Attendees were plinss, sylvaing, +47.21.65.aaaa, glazou, howcome, +1.650.253.aabb, TabAtkins, arronei, +1.617.650.aacc, bradk, dethbakin, smfr, David_Baron, +1.919.374.aadd,
16:58:53 [Zakim]
... ChrisL, Bert
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20:18:01 [TabAtkins]
I has a linux boxen with CVS installed. Reminder (or, preferably, pointer) on how to get into the CSS repo?
20:19:28 [anne]
20:19:59 [anne]
no idea about the Member-only one by the way, but we should be moving away from that anyway
20:20:18 [anne]
well, I probably have some clue if I put in a bit of effort...
20:20:50 [TabAtkins]
Hmm, that's a readonly base, anne.
20:21:18 [anne]
oh, do you have .ssh set up?
20:21:27 [TabAtkins]
20:21:39 [anne]
write, if you just use your username where it says anonymous it should work
20:21:42 [anne]
20:21:49 [anne]
(what a typo...)
20:21:50 [TabAtkins]
Well, theoretically. I set it up in the past, on a different machine.
20:22:08 [anne]
if you copy the keys over to your home/username/.ssh/ folder it should be fine
20:28:19 [sylvaing]
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20:31:43 [Bert]
Hi Tab, can I help?
20:32:20 [TabAtkins]
Sure, Bert. Got a linux box, CVS is installed, my ssh keys I exchanged with you a while back are now in ~/.ssh
20:33:05 [TabAtkins]
Now where do I actually point the command to get at the drafts?
20:34:00 [Bert]
You have a directory where you checked things out previously? Or not yet?
20:34:07 [TabAtkins]
Not yet.
20:35:38 [Bert]
You should first go to a place where you want the csswg directory to appear.
20:35:46 [TabAtkins]
Yah, got it.
20:37:25 [Bert]
Then "cvs -d get csswg/css3-color" should get you the Color draft (as an example)
20:37:56 [Bert]
The -d option should only be necessary the first time.
20:38:17 [Bert]
It will be stored inside a newly creatd csswg/CVS directory
20:38:33 [TabAtkins]
Do I need to set any variables to get it to recognize my key?
20:38:39 [TabAtkins]
20:38:53 [TabAtkins]
(Since that command died with a "Permission denied (public key)" error.)
20:39:12 [Bert]
You may need "export CVS_RSH=ssh" indeed.
20:39:29 [Bert]
And that should probably be put in your .bashrc or some such.
20:40:01 [Bert]
If that doesn't work, we should first check if SSH works without CVS...
20:40:32 [Bert]
The way to test is to do: ssh -v
20:40:50 [Bert]
and carefully look for any error messages in the (verbose) output.
20:41:21 [TabAtkins]
Nope, no good. Same failure message.
20:42:19 [TabAtkins]
Possibly I need to identify the file better? My private/public keys are called sshkey and
20:42:39 [Bert]
They are normally called .ssh/id_dsa and .ssh/
20:42:45 [Bert]
(or rsa instead of dsa)
20:43:53 [TabAtkins]
Ah, that let ssh work.
20:44:18 [TabAtkins]
Cool, checkout succeeded.
20:45:06 [TabAtkins]
Finally, where's your src formatter again?
20:45:35 [Bert]
There are three variants:
20:46:29 [TabAtkins]
danke, bert.
20:46:31 [Bert]
There should be some Makefiles in various directories under csswg with hints how to use that from the command line with curl, if you don't want to use a Web browser.
20:48:25 [TabAtkins]
Got it.
20:48:30 [TabAtkins]
This will work for now.
20:49:04 [Bert]
Great! Which module are you working on?
20:49:11 [TabAtkins]
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22:25:54 [TabAtkins]
Bert, fantasai: What's the best thing to do for background-repeat:extend? Pop it into Images?
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23:08:41 [TabAtkins]
What rows of a propdef are required, and which can be omitted, if I'm just adding a new value to an existing property?