IRC log of html-a11y on 2010-03-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:59:06 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
14:59:06 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:59:14 [janina]
zakim, this will be html-a11y
14:59:15 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, janina
15:00:29 [janina]
zakim, this will wai-pf
15:00:29 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'this will wai-pf', janina
15:00:37 [janina]
zakim, this will be wai-pf
15:00:37 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, janina
15:01:18 [janina]
zakim, this will be html-a11y
15:01:18 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, janina
15:01:49 [Ben]
Ben has joined #html-a11y
15:02:05 [janina]
zakim, this will be WAI_PFWG(HTML
15:02:05 [Zakim]
ok, janina, I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM already started
15:02:13 [Zakim]
+ +0154558aabb
15:02:17 [janina]
zakim, call janina
15:02:17 [Zakim]
ok, janina; the call is being made
15:02:18 [Zakim]
15:02:37 [Zakim]
15:02:49 [Ben]
zakim, ??P6 is Ben_Caldwell
15:02:49 [Zakim]
+Ben_Caldwell; got it
15:03:03 [janina]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:03:03 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.650.862.aaaa, [Microsoft], Gregory_Rosmaita, +0154558aabb, Janina, Ben_Caldwell
15:03:38 [Zakim]
15:04:05 [richardschwerdtfe]
richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
15:04:20 [Sean]
Sean has joined #html-a11y
15:04:50 [Joshue]
Joshue has joined #html-a11y
15:05:00 [janina]
zakim, +1.650.862 is John_Foliot
15:05:00 [Zakim]
+John_Foliot; got it
15:05:11 [janina]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:05:11 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Foliot, [Microsoft], Gregory_Rosmaita, +0154558aabb, Janina, Ben_Caldwell, Rich
15:05:25 [kford]
zakim, microsoft is kford
15:05:25 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
15:05:32 [Joshue]
zakim, code?
15:05:32 [Zakim]
the conference code is 2119 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), Joshue
15:05:47 [Zakim]
15:05:54 [Joshue]
zakim, ??P4 is Joshue
15:05:54 [Zakim]
+Joshue; got it
15:06:51 [LeifHS]
LeifHS has joined #html-a11y
15:07:26 [LeifHS]
Hi. I will try to present at 16:30. Leif
15:07:33 [janina]
zakim, aaaa is Sean_Hayes
15:07:33 [Zakim]
sorry, janina, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
15:07:43 [janina]
zakim, +015455 is Sean_Hayes
15:07:43 [Zakim]
+Sean_Hayes; got it
15:07:59 [janina]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:07:59 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Foliot, kford, Gregory_Rosmaita, Sean_Hayes, Janina, Ben_Caldwell, Rich, Joshue
15:08:16 [Joshue]
hi y'all
15:08:25 [Joshue]
scribe: Joshue
15:08:42 [Joshue]
zakim, mute me
15:08:42 [Zakim]
Joshue should now be muted
15:09:11 [Joshue]
JS: Lets get the agenda going
15:09:16 [janina]
Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
15:09:16 [janina]
Chair: Janina_Sajka
15:09:16 [janina]
agenda: this
15:09:16 [janina]
agenda+ Actions Review
15:09:16 [janina]
agenda+ Canvas Subteam Change Proposals
15:09:17 [janina]
agenda+ Media Subteam Update; Requirements; API Proposal
15:09:19 [janina]
agenda+ Face to Face Planning
15:09:21 [janina]
agenda+ Resolved & Rejected Bugs Review
15:09:24 [janina]
agenda+ New Business
15:09:26 [janina]
agenda+ next meetings, confirm date/time, choose scribe
15:09:28 [janina]
agenda+ be done
15:09:30 [janina]
15:10:08 [Joshue]
JS: I suggests skipping ACTION review
15:10:09 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, call Mike
15:10:09 [Zakim]
ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
15:10:11 [Zakim]
15:10:26 [Joshue]
JS: We are getting good feedback from the wider group re:canvas etc
15:10:46 [Joshue]
RS: We made some progress re:boolean att in HTML 5
15:11:01 [richardschwerdtfe]
15:11:57 [Joshue]
RS: This is a proposal we have, there is good feedback. We have modified to nonav as a boolean @. Its not written as a conformance statement, but advice for authors. Well recieved by wider HTML group.
15:12:15 [Joshue]
RS: We still are working on Chaals proposal and some API mods to 2D.
15:12:37 [Joshue]
JS: So this is a perfecting amendment to what we agreed last week? Unless anyone disagrees?
15:12:44 [oedipus]
oedipus has joined #html-a11y
15:12:47 [Joshue]
JS: Is it largely editorial.
15:13:35 [Joshue]
JS: The next step is the 2D focus change proposal
15:13:49 [Joshue]
RS: There are diffs in the way Apple implement things vs Windows
15:14:29 [Joshue]
RS: For example, the blink rate, we have to be careful about triggering seizures etc, am busy with SXSW and CSUN etc
15:14:42 [Joshue]
JS: Yes, there is a lot of traffic about his, excellent.
15:14:56 [oedipus]
zakim, who is here?
15:14:56 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Foliot, kford, Gregory_Rosmaita, Sean_Hayes, Janina, Ben_Caldwell, Rich, Joshue (muted), Mike
15:14:59 [Zakim]
On IRC I see oedipus, LeifHS, Joshue, Sean, richardschwerdtfe, Ben, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, kford, JF, MichaelC, MikeSmith, trackbot
15:15:11 [Joshue]
RS: I have a question for the HTML WG chairs, how do we position Issue 72?
15:15:21 [Joshue]
MS: No one on call at the mo.
15:15:30 [Joshue]
JS: I said last week that this is a partial resolution.
15:15:49 [Joshue]
JS: There will be three parts, Focus, 2D and Chaals proposal
15:16:08 [Joshue]
JS: The subteam thought the first two would be acceptable and then enhanced by Chaals
15:16:09 [oedipus]
agree with JS' synopsis
15:16:14 [Joshue]
RS: I would agree with that
15:16:34 [Joshue]
JS: This is a strong proposal in toto
15:16:43 [Joshue]
JS: Anything else?
15:16:47 [oedipus]
GJR: chaals' suggestion involves changing HTML5 definition of imagemap in order to work properly -- the prognosis for that is not very good
15:16:59 [Joshue]
RS: Its a lot of work for an @!
15:17:08 [Joshue]
TOPIC: Media Sub Team
15:17:12 [oedipus]
15:17:15 [Joshue]
JS: We spoke on this last week
15:17:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
15:18:34 [Joshue]
JS: We talked about media in the PF call yest, also in WAI CG call. We are a little blocked, we discussed what may be resolutions and the result was..lets take another look at the wiki requirements doc. We assigned some action items etc, put out a call for changes and edits etc and or ommissions.
15:18:46 [Joshue]
JS: That should take a couple of weeks, may not resolve but will help.
15:19:07 [Joshue]
Is this time stamps or media codecs?
15:19:20 [Joshue]
JS:We didn't talk codecs
15:19:36 [Joshue]
JS: We tried to understand everyones positons.
15:19:48 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, mute Mike
15:19:48 [Zakim]
Mike should now be muted
15:19:53 [Joshue]
JS: If we do too little, it could be a prob
15:20:16 [Joshue]
JS: We need the right balance, the media group, PF , HTML so we have some extra people looking.
15:20:49 [Joshue]
JS: On the API there was a chance to move this a little, I wasn't fully up to speed and some of us may not be, but we have some actions to remedy this.
15:21:07 [oedipus]
GJR has action item to reveiw API and solicit review from DAISY
15:21:21 [Joshue]
JS: We are not delaying by much to ask for people to look at this for us, based on past experience it is useful.
15:21:34 [Joshue]
JS: Is there more to say JF?
15:22:03 [Joshue]
JF: Not that I am aware of, the biggest issue seems to be time stamp. I am a little out of the loop but I don't see a lot of action.
15:22:20 [Joshue]
JF: Dick is working on a proposal, don't know where to go from here.
15:22:29 [oedipus]
15:22:33 [Joshue]
JF: Sylvias idea also needs to be worked on.
15:22:39 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, unmute me
15:22:39 [Zakim]
sorry, MikeSmith, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:22:43 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, unmute Mike
15:22:43 [Zakim]
Mike should no longer be muted
15:22:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
15:22:44 [Joshue]
JS: As Mike pointed out the big issue may be styling.
15:23:07 [Joshue]
JS: There are some disagreements.
15:23:51 [Joshue]
JF: There is not structure to SRT time etc, we need something extensible. So the question is what can we do to provide one?
15:23:53 [Joshue]
JS: Right
15:24:08 [Joshue]
JF: We need something beside SRT but we don't know what it is.
15:24:09 [oedipus]
regrets: Laura_Carlson,Denis Boudreau,Dick_Bulterman,Eric_Carlson,Sylvia_Pfieffer,Geoff_Freed
15:24:25 [oedipus]
GJR still maintains that SRT is a non-starter
15:24:43 [Joshue]
JS: Also worried that we can save in extra features, it is a reasonable idea but may be an issue with standards developement. If experience is correct.
15:24:48 [Joshue]
JF: Yes.
15:25:10 [Joshue]
JF: DFXP has some appeal, as with profiles we can evolve greater support.
15:25:26 [oedipus]
GJR whatever is used needs to meet a11y requirements NOW -- SRT would need an add-on / work to integrate what one gets with SMILText for free
15:25:29 [Joshue]
JF: There are issues, this would be a good start that we can build upon.
15:25:33 [MikeSmith]
a couple points: the styling mechanism in DFXP -- even if it is profiled -- is not compatible with browsers; and it is imaginable that SRT could be extended to include styling
15:25:46 [oedipus]
q+ to say SRT extension is a non-starter
15:25:47 [Joshue]
JF: So the standard can be the W3C DFXP format.
15:25:48 [MikeSmith]
q+ to comment
15:25:51 [oedipus]
ack me
15:25:51 [Zakim]
oedipus, you wanted to say SRT extension is a non-starter
15:25:56 [Joshue]
JS: Sounds like a possibilty, any comments?
15:26:23 [Joshue]
GJR: I am against SRT (strongly)..if implemented there is no a11y capabilities like with SMIL
15:26:54 [Joshue]
MS: Yes, but if everyone takes a strong position then we won't reach agreement.
15:26:58 [oedipus]
ack MikeSmith
15:26:58 [Zakim]
MikeSmith, you wanted to comment
15:27:21 [Joshue]
MS: So it is not prudent to say that SRT is a non-runner, we won't reach agreement.
15:27:39 [Joshue]
JF: We have to provide an extensible mechanism from the get go.
15:28:07 [Joshue]
MS: If we agree to start with a profile DFXP, we will not get that implemented.
15:28:35 [Joshue]
MS: The browser maker say that is not the ideal soltuion for them
15:28:37 [oedipus]
MikeSmith, if SRT is used it has to meet the a11y requirments identified by the TF BEFORE it is implemented in HTML5 -- otherwise, we are codifying a less-than-accessible alternative with only the promise of future work on SRT to support a11y features/requirements
15:29:40 [oedipus]
15:29:43 [Joshue]
JF: We can't just have one, this is a standard. We are writing a standard.
15:30:05 [Joshue]
MS: <disagrees>
15:30:28 [Joshue]
GJR: John and I are saying of SRT gets into HTML, SRT itself must be tweaked to support a11y
15:30:29 [LeifHS]
@oedipus Chaals has said that it is *not* /necessary/ to change the HTML5 definition of image maps
15:30:39 [Joshue]
GJR: SRT can great a black hole
15:30:48 [oedipus]
15:30:56 [Joshue]
JF: There is a lot of stuff in HTML that is not implemented.
15:31:23 [Joshue]
JF: We need to ensure that an extensible format is locked in.
15:31:39 [LeifHS]
oedipus: I think he said so 2 weeks ago, in this meeting.
15:32:12 [LeifHS]
(I will call in if the @summary comes up ...)
15:32:14 [Joshue]
SH: We have an implementation of DFXP, that is almost complete and would be happy to put it in the spec. So I don't see it as a non starter.
15:32:34 [Joshue]
SH: The biggest thing is to get something in the spec, we are against shipping deadlines.
15:32:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
15:32:38 [Joshue]
MS: I agree
15:32:53 [Joshue]
MS: I asked JF, what styling mech does it use?
15:33:05 [JF]
Adobe is already supporting DFXP today
15:33:23 [Joshue]
SH: It is a self contained system. DFXP has an advantage as it doesn't rely on browser components.
15:34:05 [Joshue]
JS: So Microsoft would be ok with a spec that relied on DFXP.
15:34:13 [Joshue]
SH: Yes, speaking for the people at IE
15:34:30 [Joshue]
SH: Our main issue is getting something soon into the spec.
15:34:34 [Joshue]
JS: What about SMIL?
15:34:42 [Joshue]
SH: We would prefer DFXP.
15:35:00 [oedipus]
15:35:02 [Joshue]
SH: SMIL is huge, I would have to look at it.
15:35:13 [Joshue]
SH: DFXP is based a lot on SMIL, it is a subset.
15:35:22 [Joshue]
JS: This is important info.
15:35:30 [MikeSmith]
15:35:36 [Joshue]
JS: Any other comments?
15:35:46 [Joshue]
JS: We will talk about his in B'mingham.
15:35:52 [Joshue]
JS: Also on the phone
15:36:05 [Joshue]
JS: We need a resolution that works on many levels.
15:36:05 [LeifHS]
@oedipus Here is what Chaals said 4th of march: "Chaals: HTML5 imagemap model actually can support Chaals"
15:36:17 [Joshue]
JF: I will be on the phone
15:36:22 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, mute Mike
15:36:22 [Zakim]
Mike should now be muted
15:36:27 [oedipus]
15:36:34 [MikeSmith]
expensive because of Easter holiday, I think
15:36:51 [Joshue]
SH: I will be back for the next media installment.
15:36:53 [Zakim]
15:37:09 [Joshue]
I'll be there
15:37:11 [MikeSmith]
I will be there
15:37:15 [oedipus]
GJR will remotely participate
15:37:26 [JF]
JF remotely attending
15:37:27 [Joshue]
JS: Who is coming?
15:37:51 [Joshue]
JS: We need people who are participating here, we needs champs, we'll do that via mail.
15:38:03 [Joshue]
JS: I don't know if he is.
15:38:14 [Joshue]
zakim, unmute me
15:38:14 [Zakim]
Joshue should no longer be muted
15:38:19 [LeifHS]
@oedipus But he added that "HTML5 spec doesn't yet work, HTML4 does". (Me: May be both could need some tuning ...)
15:38:48 [Joshue]
zakim, mute me
15:38:48 [Zakim]
Joshue should now be muted
15:39:14 [Joshue]
JS: Lets look at Lauras latest bug report
15:39:19 [Joshue]
TOPIC: Bug report
15:39:31 [oedipus]
15:39:32 [Joshue]
GJR: I got it.
15:40:26 [oedipus]
15:40:36 [Joshue]
JS: We need to look at Bug 7721: "Drag and Drop is not keyboard accessible" reported by Rich
15:40:37 [Joshue]
15:40:37 [Joshue]
15:40:55 [oedipus]
drag and drop:
15:41:13 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, unmute Mike
15:41:13 [Zakim]
Mike should no longer be muted
15:41:14 [Joshue]
JS: Can some tag these as we go.
15:41:19 [Joshue]
JS: Mike
15:41:21 [oedipus]
audio and video syncronization:
15:41:53 [Joshue]
They seem to be all tagged btw
15:41:57 [oedipus]
canvas needs a11y fallback:
15:42:30 [oedipus]
title where alt ommited:
15:42:51 [oedipus]
@summary not obsoltete:
15:43:05 [Joshue]
MS: Whats happening, along with some others, discussed this with Maciej. There are a lot of bugs that have changed to verify status and there is a note saying that a response is requested in two weeks. That is why this is on the list.
15:43:07 [oedipus]
encourage use of @summary:
15:43:12 [Joshue]
JS: We should just re-open?
15:43:26 [Joshue]
MS: Yes, just re-open them.
15:43:28 [Joshue]
JS: Ok
15:43:53 [Joshue]
JS: What Laura is saying the other bugs were re-opened by Maciej?
15:44:00 [Joshue]
MS: I will check them one by one
15:44:07 [oedipus]
closed bug progress element should be labelable with label: (Maciej)
15:45:41 [Joshue]
MS: 7011 is the same, am re-opening
15:46:25 [Joshue]
MS: 7632, 7539 same
15:47:27 [MikeSmith]
15:47:46 [Joshue]
MS: What about 8554, we need someone to evaluate?
15:47:50 [Joshue]
zakim, unmute me
15:47:50 [Zakim]
Joshue should no longer be muted
15:48:02 [MikeSmith]
15:48:36 [Joshue]
MS: Is there much more that needs to be done with this?
15:48:44 [Joshue]
MS: Seems to be resolved.
15:48:47 [Joshue]
zakim, mute me
15:48:47 [Zakim]
Joshue should now be muted
15:48:52 [Joshue]
MS: Lets leave that one.
15:48:55 [Joshue]
JS: Yup
15:49:19 [Joshue]
JS: Now, re-opened bugs, lets jump to Cat 5 and see if we agree with tagging them.
15:49:43 [MikeSmith]
15:49:58 [Joshue]
JF: 9231 and 9243 are somewhat linked.
15:50:45 [Joshue]
sorry John, I got the second bug wrong, please edit
15:51:28 [kford]
Zakim/me can someone post the bug link again, my IRC lost the buffer
15:51:39 [Joshue]
JS: In the W3C schema should come from WAI and WCAG, authoring tools etc. We are missing techniques for other things.
15:52:06 [Joshue]
MS: These are a little different, as JF said.
15:52:12 [Joshue]
MS: Lets take that to the list
15:52:23 [Joshue]
15:52:49 [Joshue]
JS: The consensus seems to be lets just link to the appropriate document as required.
15:52:57 [Joshue]
JS: Would you do that?
15:53:00 [Joshue]
JF: Yup
15:53:21 [Joshue]
MS: There is a non trivial cost to taking up these issues with the TF.
15:53:38 [Joshue]
MS: We need to agree criteria for our descisions to take on issues.
15:53:49 [Joshue]
Is that not just based on importance?
15:54:01 [Joshue]
MS: Could you take that to the list, that would be great?
15:54:09 [Joshue]
I get ya
15:54:21 [Joshue]
JS: Yes, it takes time
15:54:28 [Joshue]
MS: At one extreme we just take them all on.
15:54:43 [Joshue]
MS: But we should decide where and how to draw the line.
15:54:58 [Joshue]
JS: Michael did try to group them to make it easier.
15:55:11 [Joshue]
MS: It is a matter of cycles
15:55:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
15:55:57 [Joshue]
JF: We are all going to be very busy for the next few weeks.
15:56:10 [Joshue]
RS: the new 508 draft came out yest
15:56:35 [Joshue]
MS: 9216 has been discussed a lot lately, that is a priority. What do people think?
15:56:52 [Joshue]
9216: "Provide a CAPTCHA example that is in accord with WCAG 2 or
15:56:52 [Joshue]
Defer to "HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives'"
15:57:04 [Joshue]
JS: We can tag it as an issue and take it up with the group.
15:57:08 [oedipus]
laura's email delineating process on CAPTCHA:
15:57:15 [Joshue]
JF: Laura mailed me on this.
15:57:42 [Joshue]
JF: Would it be useful to do a survey?
15:57:52 [Joshue]
JS: Yes
15:58:04 [Joshue]
MS: If Laura has done the work..
15:58:09 [Joshue]
JF: The questions are there.
15:58:14 [Joshue]
MS: Ok, I can do this
15:58:15 [oedipus]
15:58:26 [Joshue]
MS: Should we wait a little?
15:58:35 [Joshue]
MS: Or do it today?
15:58:57 [Joshue]
JF: Late next week may be better
15:58:59 [Joshue]
JS: Yes
15:59:02 [Joshue]
MS: Ok
15:59:47 [MikeSmith]
so I will get a WBS survey drafted up, using Laura's message as the basis, with plan to get it out at the end of next week
15:59:55 [Joshue]
JS: We are at the hour, no meeting next week. Tune in on 1st April.
16:00:00 [Joshue]
JS: Anything else?
16:00:07 [Joshue]
zakim, unmute me
16:00:07 [Zakim]
Joshue should no longer be muted
16:00:10 [Zakim]
16:00:21 [Zakim]
16:00:21 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, drop Mike
16:00:23 [Zakim]
Mike is being disconnected
16:00:23 [Zakim]
16:00:24 [Zakim]
16:00:24 [Zakim]
16:00:25 [Joshue]
zakim, please make minutes
16:00:25 [Zakim]
16:00:29 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'please make minutes', Joshue
16:00:30 [Ben]
Ben has left #html-a11y
16:00:31 [Zakim]
16:00:34 [Joshue]
zakim, unmute me
16:00:34 [Zakim]
ok Joshue, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
16:00:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:00:58 [Zakim]
16:00:59 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has ended
16:01:00 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.650.862.aaaa, Gregory_Rosmaita, +0154558aabb, Janina, Ben_Caldwell, Rich, John_Foliot, kford, Joshue, Sean_Hayes, Mike
16:01:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:01:22 [LeifHS]
LeifHS has left #html-a11y
16:01:42 [oedipus]
zakim, bye
16:01:42 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #html-a11y
16:01:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:02:14 [oedipus]
present- [+1.650.862.aaaa]
16:02:30 [oedipus]
present- [+0154558aabb]
16:02:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:03:30 [oedipus]
present- aaaa
16:03:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:04:13 [oedipus]
present- +1.650.862.aaaa
16:04:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
16:04:35 [oedipus]
regrets+ Gregory_Rosmaita
16:05:58 [prolix]
prolix has joined #html-a11y
16:06:52 [prolix]
present- +154558aabb
16:06:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate prolix
16:07:27 [prolix]
regrets- Gregory_Rosmaita
16:07:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate prolix