IRC log of CSS on 2010-03-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:32:32 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #CSS
15:32:32 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/17-CSS-irc
15:32:38 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
15:32:38 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 28 minutes
15:32:45 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:41:50 [TabAtkins_]
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15:51:25 [bradk]
bradk has joined #css
15:54:06 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:54:15 [Zakim]
+ +95089aaaa
15:54:31 [glazou]
Zakim, aaaa is me
15:54:31 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
15:56:27 [Zakim]
+ +1.858.216.aabb
15:56:51 [plinss]
zakim, aabb is me
15:56:51 [Zakim]
+plinss; got it
15:57:12 [Zakim]
+ +1.415.738.aacc
15:57:26 [szilles]
szilles has joined #css
15:57:40 [glazou]
Zakim, aacc is jdaggett
15:57:40 [Zakim]
+jdaggett; got it
15:57:48 [jdaggett_home]
thanks
15:58:39 [oyvind]
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15:59:15 [TabAtkins_]
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16:01:19 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.275.aadd
16:01:21 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.536.aaee
16:01:44 [plinss]
zakim, aadd is bradk
16:01:45 [sylvaing]
sylvaing has joined #css
16:01:47 [fantasai]
krijnh: pong
16:01:49 [Zakim]
+bradk; got it
16:01:53 [Zakim]
+??P0
16:01:56 [bradk]
thanks
16:02:11 [plinss]
zakim, ??P0 is fantasai
16:02:11 [Zakim]
+fantasai; got it
16:02:16 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.324.aaff
16:02:26 [bradk]
Tab, are you in Calif now?
16:02:34 [plinss]
zakim, aaff sylvaing
16:02:34 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'aaff sylvaing', plinss
16:02:47 [plinss]
zakim, aaff is sylvaing
16:02:47 [Zakim]
+sylvaing; got it
16:02:49 [TabAtkins]
bradk: Yup.
16:03:07 [TabAtkins]
bradk: In a hotel in Fremont right now until my house is ready to be moved into.
16:04:03 [glazou]
ah yes TabAtkins is joining google (or joined already)
16:04:21 [Zakim]
+Bert
16:04:33 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.636.aagg
16:04:33 [bradk]
new time zone too, from Texas
16:05:06 [Zakim]
+ +1.832.797.aahh
16:05:13 [TabAtkins]
Zakim, aahh is me.
16:05:13 [Zakim]
+TabAtkins; got it
16:06:14 [Zakim]
+[Mozilla]
16:06:15 [sylvaing]
Tab, congrats on the move !
16:06:16 [dbaron]
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16:06:52 [sylvaing]
scribenick: sylvaing
16:07:02 [glazou]
dbaron: Christopher from Adobe for Fonts
16:07:16 [glazou]
(I think so)
16:07:55 [sylvaing]
CSS2.1 test suite
16:08:19 [sylvaing]
fantasai: new alpha build is out. please review tests, identify build system issues
16:08:49 [fantasai]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Mar/0152.html
16:09:10 [shepazu]
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16:09:50 [sylvaing]
fantasai: if you review a test, please make sure to communicate it by adding yourself as a reviewer or mailing the list
16:10:51 [sylvaing]
fantasai: we had a request to submit i18n WG testcases
16:11:07 [cslye]
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16:11:35 [plinss]
zakim, aaee is cslye
16:11:35 [Zakim]
+cslye; got it
16:12:52 [fantasai]
http://www.w3.org/International/tests/list-html-css
16:13:19 [fantasai]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2010Feb/0015.html
16:13:53 [sylvaing]
Next topic: CSS3 Fonts
16:14:21 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: I posted a draft update including opentype font feature support following the f2f discussion last year
16:14:23 [jdaggett_home]
http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/featurelist.htm
16:14:45 [sylvaing]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Feb/0244.html
16:14:52 [jdaggett_home]
http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-fonts/#font-variant-ligatures-prop
16:14:54 [sylvaing]
There are lot of opentype features
16:15:32 [sylvaing]
this proposal groups these features in compound properties; there is a granularity trade-off in that you pick a set of features
16:15:46 [jdaggett_home]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Mar/0098.html
16:16:09 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: Sergey Malkin preferred thee features to be exposed as individual properties
16:16:19 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: this would result in a lot of properties
16:16:30 [sylvaing]
fantasai: I think you've done a good job grouping related properties
16:16:53 [sylvaing]
fantasai: there is a lot of overhead in having a lot of properties for browsers and authors.
16:17:18 [sylvaing]
fantasai: and we may still end up with compound/shorthand properties in the future
16:17:30 [fantasai]
s/can/
16:17:32 [fantasai]
if needed
16:18:38 [sylvaing]
jdagett (answering Tab): for people who have Macs, this is easy to test using TextEdit. The font panel shows you available font features
16:19:03 [jdaggett_home]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Feb/0244.html
16:19:09 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: some font features are specific to a single font. this could have side-effects in a fallback situation
16:19:47 [sylvaing]
jdagett: this primarily affects those OT style settings that use a number (styleset() )
16:20:01 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: the other properties do apply across fonts
16:21:08 [dbaron]
s/jdagett/jdaggett/g
16:21:19 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: cslye: it's not just that some features apply only to one font, it's that styleset x in font B might look completely different and unrelated to styleset x in font A
16:21:53 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: i think the spec could use more background on the rendering model.
16:22:30 [smfr]
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16:23:09 [plinss]
zakim, aagg is smfr
16:23:09 [Zakim]
+smfr; got it
16:23:09 [dbaron]
Where is the wording in the spec about the precedence? (Or is it not there yet?)
16:23:47 [jdaggett_home]
dbaron: section 7
16:26:00 [fantasai]
fantasai: I think it's a good idea to have font-variant-alternates on the @font-face, to allow -font-specific variant selection
16:26:09 [fantasai]
fantasai: would we still have these numeric selections in the property?
16:26:12 [fantasai]
jdaggett: yes
16:26:25 [dbaron]
jdaggett_home, section 7 doesn't seem clear whether the order it gives is highest-to-lowest or lowest-to-highest precedence
16:26:27 [sylvaing]
?: the odds of falling back to a font with a competing equivalent styleset are lower. authors will go from most to least specific.
16:26:30 [fantasai]
fantasai: I'm concerned that authors will use the numeric selections on the property because it's easier
16:26:38 [fantasai]
fantasai: instead of tying it to the font in @font-face
16:27:44 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: it's actually difficult to come up with a realistic scenario where this would work
16:28:29 [sylvaing]
cslye: I understood stylesets to be a power user feature.
16:28:50 [sylvaing]
fantasai: this doesn't prevent breakage, it only limits its frequency
16:29:05 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: fallback will still happen
16:29:44 [sylvaing]
fantasai: I am still concerned in applying this to all fonts
16:31:24 [sylvaing]
plinss: I agree that this may not be a problem in the short term but it may be in the future. we should address these issues now
16:31:26 [jdaggett_home]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Feb/0245.html
16:31:44 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: one of the features that is not in the spec already relates to sub/superscript support
16:32:39 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: OT can support a variant glyph suitable for sub/superscript resizing. it's also designed to look and feel like the rest of the text in that context
16:33:01 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: it's analogous to real smallcaps vs. synthesized smallcaps
16:33:46 [jdaggett_home]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Feb/0247.html
16:33:51 [TabAtkins]
character-transform: super|sub
16:37:44 [glazou]
Zakim, mute me
16:37:44 [Zakim]
glazou should now be muted
16:39:18 [sylvaing]
jdaggett/fantasai/tab: we need to way to use this OT feature if the glyphs are available, but simulate it with vertical-align:super when not.
16:39:38 [fantasai]
that's what Tab's proposal is
16:39:56 [fantasai]
my comment was that the property Tab proposed should also reset vertical-align and font-size to their initial values at parsetime
16:40:01 [fantasai]
the same way a shorthand does
16:42:52 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: also, it is hard for the spec to be format-agnostic i.e. not have a dependency on OT at this point
16:42:58 [sylvaing]
dbaron: there is a difference between spec and the test suite. The spec may apply to multiple formats but the test suite does not cover them all.
16:43:22 [sylvaing]
fantasai: for other formats, testcases can be submitted for conformance using that format
16:43:58 [fantasai]
Can use examples to illustrate spec with OT-specific features
16:44:07 [glazou]
Zakim, unmute me
16:44:07 [Zakim]
glazou should no longer be muted
16:44:26 [fantasai]
For example, the specs don't require support for HTML or XML. You could use some other tree-based document format and style it with CSS
16:44:33 [sylvaing]
jdaggett: I will do another edit in the next week
16:44:41 [fantasai]
But the test suite is written assuming support for XML or HTML
16:44:51 [fantasai]
And all our examples in the specs use XML or HTML
16:45:04 [anne]
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16:46:06 [sylvaing]
Tab: I had imagined gradients to be infinite but it's not how Mozilla implemented it
16:46:08 [fantasai]
Topic: Extent of Gradients in Backgrounds
16:46:15 [sylvaing]
dbaron: we changed it based on what we thought the spec said
16:47:22 [sylvaing]
Tab: I would like to specify that the gradient be 'chopped' to the box and the extend keyword would make the gradient infinite
16:47:32 [sylvaing]
fantasai: SVG supports this as well
16:47:39 [fantasai]
s/supports/could support/
16:48:09 [fantasai]
Right now content in SVG is clipped to the SVG viewport
16:48:10 [sylvaing]
dbaron: I'd like to hear from Roc
16:48:13 [fantasai]
extend could mean don't clip
16:48:22 [fantasai]
So anything painted outside the viewport box would show up
16:49:01 [fantasai]
Tab: Anybody else implemented gradients?
16:49:18 [fantasai]
Simon: Webkit has the old syntax. I agree extend would be useful in many cases, and should be the default
16:49:57 [fantasai]
Brad says something about patterns
16:50:10 [fantasai]
Scribenick: fantasai
16:51:12 [TabAtkins]
Scribenick: TabAtkins
16:51:31 [dbaron]
TabAtkins, Is there a www-style message summarizing the background-repeat: extend proposal?
16:51:47 [dbaron]
TabAtkins, I see only http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2010JanMar/0101.html
16:52:03 [TabAtkins]
bradk: I think that the infinite-version of gradients is more useful, and should be the default, and then have a keyword to change it to the finite version.
16:52:30 [TabAtkins]
TabAtkins: That's possible, but the SVG use-case for extend (popping it out of the viewbox) is still potentially useful. We can experiment with this.
16:52:46 [fantasai]
Sylvain explains his concern about background-clip
16:52:53 [fantasai]
Sylvain: About how you can't specify origin and clip in the shorthand
16:52:54 [TabAtkins]
dbaron: No, let me forward that mail to www-style.
16:53:01 [fantasai]
Sylvain: And there is no content-box value on background-clip
16:53:44 [fantasai]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Mar/0021.html
16:53:57 [Zakim]
-jdaggett
16:54:02 [fantasai]
Sylvain: I don't think we should exclude the people who want to set background-clip to the content box
16:55:20 [fantasai]
proposed syntax: Change <bg-origin> in shorthand to <bg-origin>{1,2}
16:55:50 [fantasai]
Bert: I don't think clipping to the content box is very useful, but I don't see it's harmful either
16:56:13 [fantasai]
Sylvain: I don't see why it wouldn't be useful to have separate backgrounds for the border, padding, and content areas
16:56:20 [fantasai]
Brad: I agree
16:56:30 [fantasai]
Tab: Would be more useful with multiple backgrounds
16:57:32 [fantasai]
Brad: I don't like the proposed background shorthand syntax
16:57:59 [fantasai]
fantasai: I'm strongly in favor of my proposal
16:58:15 [fantasai]
fantasai: I really don't want to use a slash unless it's absolutely necessary, and it's not necessary here
16:58:38 [fantasai]
Daniel: From a parsing point of view the slash is very ugly
16:58:57 [cslye]
cslye has left #css
16:59:11 [Zakim]
-cslye
17:01:20 [fantasai]
some argument about syntax
17:02:00 [fantasai]
dbaron: I would note that the initial values of the two properties are different
17:02:15 [Zakim]
-David_Baron
17:02:16 [fantasai]
fantasai: yeah, we know that. Imo it's a bug in the spec that it's now too late to fix
17:02:16 [Zakim]
-smfr
17:02:16 [Bert]
Regrets for next week
17:02:18 [Zakim]
-glazou
17:02:21 [fantasai]
Meeting closed.
17:02:24 [Zakim]
-sylvaing
17:02:28 [Zakim]
-Bert
17:02:29 [Zakim]
-plinss
17:02:29 [Zakim]
-bradk
17:02:36 [Zakim]
-TabAtkins
17:05:06 [Zakim]
-fantasai
17:05:08 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:05:10 [Zakim]
Attendees were +95089aaaa, glazou, +1.858.216.aabb, plinss, +1.415.738.aacc, jdaggett, +1.650.275.aadd, +1.408.536.aaee, bradk, fantasai, +1.206.324.aaff, sylvaing, Bert,
17:05:13 [Zakim]
... +1.408.636.aagg, +1.832.797.aahh, TabAtkins, David_Baron, cslye, smfr
18:01:33 [arronei]
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arronei has joined #CSS
18:22:33 [anne]
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18:40:35 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: You around? Heard you'll be in San Fran this weekend, and wondered if you wanted to do any touristy stuff with the wife and me.
19:22:47 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #CSS
20:18:16 [fantasai]
that was stupid, should've just spent them working instead
20:18:46 [fantasai]
ugh
20:18:48 [fantasai]
wrong window
21:17:10 [shepazu]
shepazu has joined #css
21:56:52 [TabAtkins_]
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21:57:59 [sylvaing]
TabAtkins: not this w-e, the one just before the f2f
21:59:07 [sylvaing]
i was mostly planning on walking around and take lots of photos....if I don't run into alexmog the night before, or survive it :)
21:59:19 [sylvaing]
but i'm sure we can come up with something !
22:40:05 [TabAtkins]
sylvaing: kk
22:40:17 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: You living in Seattle right now, or just temporary while working with Arron?
22:41:24 [sylvaing]
fantasai is living the life. She even has a chauffeur to go to the office.
22:41:24 [TabAtkins]
fantasai: Also, your email's first example set "vertical-align:sub; character-transform:super;". ^_^
22:42:37 [TabAtkins]
Ooh la la. ^_^
23:03:41 [fantasai]
Just temporary while working with Arron & Sylvain :)
23:25:09 [TabAtkins]
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