15:32:32 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #CSS
15:32:32 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/17-CSS-irc
15:32:38 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
15:32:38 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 28 minutes
15:32:45 <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:41:50 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_ has joined #css
15:51:25 <bradk> bradk has joined #css
15:54:06 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
15:54:15 <Zakim> + +95089aaaa
15:54:31 <glazou> Zakim, aaaa is me
15:54:31 <Zakim> +glazou; got it
15:56:27 <Zakim> + +1.858.216.aabb
15:56:51 <plinss> zakim, aabb is me
15:56:51 <Zakim> +plinss; got it
15:57:12 <Zakim> + +1.415.738.aacc
15:57:26 <szilles> szilles has joined #css
15:57:40 <glazou> Zakim, aacc is jdaggett 
15:57:40 <Zakim> +jdaggett; got it
15:57:48 <jdaggett_home> thanks
15:58:39 <oyvind> oyvind has joined #css
15:59:15 <TabAtkins_> TabAtkins_ has joined #css
16:01:19 <Zakim> + +1.650.275.aadd
16:01:21 <Zakim> + +1.408.536.aaee
16:01:44 <plinss> zakim, aadd is bradk
16:01:45 <sylvaing> sylvaing has joined #css
16:01:47 <fantasai> krijnh: pong
16:01:49 <Zakim> +bradk; got it
16:01:53 <Zakim> +??P0
16:01:56 <bradk> thanks
16:02:11 <plinss> zakim, ??P0 is fantasai
16:02:11 <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
16:02:16 <Zakim> + +1.206.324.aaff
16:02:26 <bradk> Tab, are you in Calif now?
16:02:34 <plinss> zakim, aaff sylvaing
16:02:34 <Zakim> I don't understand 'aaff sylvaing', plinss
16:02:47 <plinss> zakim, aaff is sylvaing
16:02:47 <Zakim> +sylvaing; got it
16:02:49 <TabAtkins> bradk: Yup.
16:03:07 <TabAtkins> bradk: In a hotel in Fremont right now until my house is ready to be moved into.
16:04:03 <glazou> ah yes TabAtkins is joining google (or joined already)
16:04:21 <Zakim> +Bert
16:04:33 <Zakim> + +1.408.636.aagg
16:04:33 <bradk> new time zone too, from Texas
16:05:06 <Zakim> + +1.832.797.aahh
16:05:13 <TabAtkins> Zakim, aahh is me.
16:05:13 <Zakim> +TabAtkins; got it
16:06:14 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
16:06:15 <sylvaing> Tab, congrats on the move !
16:06:16 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #css
16:06:52 <sylvaing> scribenick: sylvaing
16:07:02 <glazou> dbaron: Christopher from Adobe for Fonts
16:07:16 <glazou> (I think so)
16:07:55 <sylvaing> CSS2.1 test suite
16:08:19 <sylvaing> fantasai: new alpha build is out. please review tests, identify build system issues
16:08:49 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Mar/0152.html
16:09:10 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #css
16:09:50 <sylvaing> fantasai: if you review a test, please make sure to communicate it by adding yourself as a reviewer or mailing the list
16:10:51 <sylvaing> fantasai: we had a request to submit i18n WG testcases
16:11:07 <cslye> cslye has joined #css
16:11:35 <plinss> zakim, aaee is cslye 
16:11:35 <Zakim> +cslye; got it
16:12:52 <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/International/tests/list-html-css
16:13:19 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-css-testsuite/2010Feb/0015.html
16:13:53 <sylvaing> Next topic: CSS3 Fonts
16:14:21 <sylvaing> jdaggett: I posted a draft update including opentype font feature support following the f2f discussion last year
16:14:23 <jdaggett_home> http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/featurelist.htm
16:14:45 <sylvaing> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Feb/0244.html
16:14:52 <jdaggett_home> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-fonts/#font-variant-ligatures-prop
16:14:54 <sylvaing> There are lot of opentype features
16:15:32 <sylvaing> this proposal groups these features in compound properties; there is a granularity trade-off in that you pick a set of features
16:15:46 <jdaggett_home> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Mar/0098.html
16:16:09 <sylvaing> jdaggett: Sergey Malkin preferred thee features to be exposed as individual properties
16:16:19 <sylvaing> jdaggett: this would result in a lot of properties
16:16:30 <sylvaing> fantasai: I think you've done a good job grouping related properties
16:16:53 <sylvaing> fantasai: there is a lot of overhead in having a lot of properties for browsers and authors.
16:17:18 <sylvaing> fantasai: and we may still end up with compound/shorthand properties in the future
16:17:30 <fantasai> s/can/ 
16:17:32 <fantasai> if needed
16:18:38 <sylvaing> jdagett (answering Tab): for people who have Macs, this is easy to test using TextEdit. The font panel shows you available font features
16:19:03 <jdaggett_home> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Feb/0244.html
16:19:09 <sylvaing> jdaggett: some font features are specific to a single font. this could have side-effects in a fallback situation
16:19:47 <sylvaing> jdagett: this primarily affects those OT style settings that use a number (styleset() )
16:20:01 <sylvaing> jdaggett: the other properties do apply across fonts
16:21:08 <dbaron> s/jdagett/jdaggett/g
16:21:19 <sylvaing> jdaggett: cslye: it's not just that some features apply only to one font, it's that styleset x in font B might look completely different and unrelated to styleset x in font A
16:21:53 <sylvaing> jdaggett: i think the spec could use more background on the rendering model.
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16:23:09 <plinss> zakim, aagg is smfr
16:23:09 <Zakim> +smfr; got it
16:23:09 <dbaron> Where is the wording in the spec about the precedence?  (Or is it not there yet?)
16:23:47 <jdaggett_home> dbaron: section 7
16:26:00 <fantasai> fantasai: I think it's a good idea to have font-variant-alternates on the @font-face, to allow -font-specific variant selection
16:26:09 <fantasai> fantasai: would we still have these numeric selections in the property?
16:26:12 <fantasai> jdaggett: yes
16:26:25 <dbaron> jdaggett_home, section 7 doesn't seem clear whether the order it gives is highest-to-lowest or lowest-to-highest precedence
16:26:27 <sylvaing> ?: the odds of falling back to a font with a competing equivalent styleset are lower. authors will go from most to least specific. 
16:26:30 <fantasai> fantasai: I'm concerned that authors will use the numeric selections on the property because it's easier
16:26:38 <fantasai> fantasai: instead of tying it to the font in @font-face
16:27:44 <sylvaing> jdaggett: it's actually difficult to come up with a realistic scenario where this would work
16:28:29 <sylvaing> cslye: I understood stylesets to be a power user feature.
16:28:50 <sylvaing> fantasai: this doesn't prevent breakage, it only limits its frequency
16:29:05 <sylvaing> jdaggett: fallback will still happen
16:29:44 <sylvaing> fantasai: I am still concerned in applying this to all fonts
16:31:24 <sylvaing> plinss: I agree that this may not be a problem in the short term but it may be in the future. we should address these issues now
16:31:26 <jdaggett_home> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Feb/0245.html
16:31:44 <sylvaing> jdaggett: one of the features that is not in the spec already relates to sub/superscript support
16:32:39 <sylvaing> jdaggett: OT can support a variant glyph suitable for sub/superscript resizing. it's also designed to look and feel like the rest of the text in that context
16:33:01 <sylvaing> jdaggett: it's analogous to real smallcaps vs. synthesized smallcaps
16:33:46 <jdaggett_home> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Feb/0247.html
16:33:51 <TabAtkins> character-transform: super|sub
16:37:44 <glazou> Zakim, mute me
16:37:44 <Zakim> glazou should now be muted
16:39:18 <sylvaing> jdaggett/fantasai/tab: we need to way to use this OT feature if the glyphs are available, but simulate it with vertical-align:super when not.
16:39:38 <fantasai> that's what Tab's proposal is
16:39:56 <fantasai> my comment was that the property Tab proposed should also reset vertical-align and font-size to their initial values at parsetime
16:40:01 <fantasai> the same way a shorthand does
16:42:52 <sylvaing> jdaggett: also, it is hard for the spec to be format-agnostic i.e. not have a dependency on OT at this point
16:42:58 <sylvaing> dbaron: there is a difference between spec and the test suite. The spec may apply to multiple formats but the test suite does not cover them all. 
16:43:22 <sylvaing> fantasai: for other formats, testcases can be submitted for conformance using that format
16:43:58 <fantasai> Can use examples to illustrate spec with OT-specific features
16:44:07 <glazou> Zakim, unmute me
16:44:07 <Zakim> glazou should no longer be muted
16:44:26 <fantasai> For example, the specs don't require support for HTML or XML. You could use some other tree-based document format and style it with CSS
16:44:33 <sylvaing> jdaggett: I will do another edit in the next week
16:44:41 <fantasai> But the test suite is written assuming support for XML or HTML
16:44:51 <fantasai> And all our examples in the specs use XML or HTML
16:45:04 <anne> anne has joined #CSS
16:46:06 <sylvaing> Tab: I had imagined gradients to be infinite but it's not how Mozilla implemented it
16:46:08 <fantasai> Topic: Extent of Gradients in Backgrounds
16:46:15 <sylvaing> dbaron: we changed it based on what we thought the spec said
16:47:22 <sylvaing> Tab: I would like to specify that the gradient be 'chopped' to the box and the extend keyword would make the gradient infinite
16:47:32 <sylvaing> fantasai: SVG supports this as well
16:47:39 <fantasai> s/supports/could support/
16:48:09 <fantasai> Right now content in SVG is clipped to the SVG viewport
16:48:10 <sylvaing> dbaron: I'd like to hear from Roc
16:48:13 <fantasai> extend could mean don't clip
16:48:22 <fantasai> So anything painted outside the viewport box would show up
16:49:01 <fantasai> Tab: Anybody else implemented gradients?
16:49:18 <fantasai> Simon: Webkit has the old syntax. I agree extend would be useful in many cases, and should be the default
16:49:57 <fantasai> Brad says something about patterns
16:50:10 <fantasai> Scribenick: fantasai
16:51:12 <TabAtkins> Scribenick: TabAtkins
16:51:31 <dbaron> TabAtkins, Is there a www-style message summarizing the background-repeat: extend proposal?
16:51:47 <dbaron> TabAtkins, I see only http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2010JanMar/0101.html
16:52:03 <TabAtkins> bradk: I think that the infinite-version of gradients is more useful, and should be the default, and then have a keyword to change it to the finite version.
16:52:30 <TabAtkins> TabAtkins: That's possible, but the SVG use-case for extend (popping it out of the viewbox) is still potentially useful.  We can experiment with this.
16:52:46 <fantasai> Sylvain explains his concern about background-clip
16:52:53 <fantasai> Sylvain: About how you can't specify origin and clip in the shorthand
16:52:54 <TabAtkins> dbaron: No, let me forward that mail to www-style.
16:53:01 <fantasai> Sylvain: And there is no content-box value on background-clip
16:53:44 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Mar/0021.html
16:53:57 <Zakim> -jdaggett
16:54:02 <fantasai> Sylvain: I don't think we should exclude the people who want to set background-clip to the content box
16:55:20 <fantasai> proposed syntax: Change <bg-origin> in shorthand to <bg-origin>{1,2}
16:55:50 <fantasai> Bert: I don't think clipping to the content box is very useful, but I don't see it's harmful either
16:56:13 <fantasai> Sylvain: I don't see why it wouldn't be useful to have separate backgrounds for the border, padding, and content areas
16:56:20 <fantasai> Brad: I agree
16:56:30 <fantasai> Tab: Would be more useful with multiple backgrounds
16:57:32 <fantasai> Brad: I don't like the proposed background shorthand syntax
16:57:59 <fantasai> fantasai: I'm strongly in favor of my proposal
16:58:15 <fantasai> fantasai: I really don't want to use a slash unless it's absolutely necessary, and it's not necessary here
16:58:38 <fantasai> Daniel: From a parsing point of view the slash is very ugly
16:58:57 <cslye> cslye has left #css
16:59:11 <Zakim> -cslye
17:01:20 <fantasai> some argument about syntax
17:02:00 <fantasai> dbaron: I would note that the initial values of the two properties are different
17:02:15 <Zakim> -David_Baron
17:02:16 <fantasai> fantasai: yeah, we know that. Imo it's a bug in the spec that it's now too late to fix
17:02:16 <Zakim> -smfr
17:02:16 <Bert> Regrets for next week
17:02:18 <Zakim> -glazou
17:02:21 <fantasai> Meeting closed.
17:02:24 <Zakim> -sylvaing
17:02:28 <Zakim> -Bert
17:02:29 <Zakim> -plinss
17:02:29 <Zakim> -bradk
17:02:36 <Zakim> -TabAtkins
17:05:06 <Zakim> -fantasai
17:05:08 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:05:10 <Zakim> Attendees were +95089aaaa, glazou, +1.858.216.aabb, plinss, +1.415.738.aacc, jdaggett, +1.650.275.aadd, +1.408.536.aaee, bradk, fantasai, +1.206.324.aaff, sylvaing, Bert,
17:05:13 <Zakim> ... +1.408.636.aagg, +1.832.797.aahh, TabAtkins, David_Baron, cslye, smfr
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18:40:35 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: You around?  Heard you'll be in San Fran this weekend, and wondered if you wanted to do any touristy stuff with the wife and me.
19:22:47 <Zakim> Zakim has left #CSS
20:18:16 <fantasai> that was stupid, should've just spent them working instead
20:18:46 <fantasai> ugh
20:18:48 <fantasai> wrong window
21:17:10 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #css
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21:57:59 <sylvaing> TabAtkins: not this w-e, the one just before the f2f
21:59:07 <sylvaing> i was mostly planning on walking around and take lots of photos....if I don't run into alexmog the night before, or survive it :)
21:59:19 <sylvaing> but i'm sure we can come up with something !
22:40:05 <TabAtkins> sylvaing: kk
22:40:17 <TabAtkins> fantasai: You living in Seattle right now, or just temporary while working with Arron?
22:41:24 <sylvaing> fantasai is living the life. She even has a chauffeur to go to the office.
22:41:24 <TabAtkins> fantasai: Also, your email's first example set "vertical-align:sub; character-transform:super;". ^_^
22:42:37 <TabAtkins> Ooh la la. ^_^
23:03:41 <fantasai> Just temporary while working with Arron & Sylvain :)
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