14:42:26 RRSAgent has joined #rif 14:42:26 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/16-rif-irc 14:42:38 clear agenda 14:43:28 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Mar/0040.html 14:43:40 Chair: Christian de Sainte Marie 14:44:11 Regrets: DaveReynolds StellaMitchell HassanAitKaci JosDeBruijn 14:45:10 rrsagent, make log public 14:45:18 rrsagent, make minutes 14:45:18 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/16-rif-minutes.html csma 14:46:36 agendum+ Admin 14:46:49 agendum+ liaisons 14:47:03 agendum+ action review 14:47:18 agendum+ Public comments 14:47:37 agendum+ SPARQL use of RIF namespace 14:48:01 agendum+ CR exit 14:48:30 agendum+ Features at risk 14:48:56 agendum+ Moving to PR 14:49:14 agendum+ RIF primer 14:49:20 agendum+ Test cases 14:49:31 agendum+ AOB (next meeting) 15:00:21 ChrisW has joined #rif 15:00:29 SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started 15:00:35 +Sandro 15:00:53 +csma 15:01:21 +[IBM] 15:01:27 zakim, ibm is temporarily me 15:01:27 +ChrisW; got it 15:02:55 + +aaaa 15:03:05 Gary_Hallmark has joined #rif 15:03:27 Gary, can you scribe, today? 15:03:36 LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif 15:03:37 + +1.503.533.aabb 15:03:47 zakim, aabb is me 15:03:47 +Gary; got it 15:03:57 +Leora_Morgenstern 15:04:07 Scribe: Gary Hallmark 15:04:15 scribenick: Gary 15:06:06 AxelPolleres has joined #rif 15:06:26 next item 15:06:44 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Mar/att-0038/09-rif-minutes.html 15:06:44 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:06:44 On the phone I see Sandro, csma, ChrisW, +aaaa, Gary, Leora_Morgenstern 15:06:57 PROPOSED: accept the minutes from MArch 9 15:07:23 RESOLVED: accept the minutes from March 9 15:07:24 MichaelKifer has joined #rif 15:07:48 next item 15:08:07 zakim, who is speaking 15:08:07 I don't understand 'who is speaking', ChrisW 15:08:12 zakim, who is speaking? 15:08:23 ChrisW, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: csma (43%), ChrisW (47%) 15:08:36 zakim, christian was talking more than me! 15:08:36 I don't understand 'christian was talking more than me!', ChrisW 15:08:51 right, i feel that was sometimes, too 15:08:59 s/was/way/ 15:09:10 zakim, aaaa is temporarily me 15:09:10 +Harold; got it 15:09:58 next item 15:10:44 + +1.631.833.aacc 15:10:57 zakim, aacc is me 15:10:57 +MichaelKifer; got it 15:11:49 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:11:49 On the phone I see Sandro, csma, ChrisW, Harold, Gary, Leora_Morgenstern, MichaelKifer 15:11:54 I don't remember how to close these actions... 15:12:47 close action-993 15:12:47 ACTION-993 Contact jderoo about DTB support or get from implementation report closed 15:13:00 close action-992 15:13:00 ACTION-992 Contact changhai about DTB support closed 15:13:04 close action-991 15:13:04 ACTION-991 Contact chime about DTB support closed 15:13:09 close action-988 15:13:09 ACTION-988 Add note to BLD, Core about plain literals closed 15:13:13 thanks 15:14:30 close action-942 15:14:30 ACTION-942 Draft reponse to TK3 (Thomas Krekeler) closed 15:14:46 close action-938 15:14:46 ACTION-938 Draft reply to public comment AR4 closed 15:16:14 close action-824 15:16:14 ACTION-824 Review PRD operational and model=theoretic conditions are = closed 15:16:23 next item 15:18:56 sandro: need to respond to public comment from Paul Gearon on 2009-11-5 15:20:29 action: sandro reply to paul gearon 15:20:29 Created ACTION-994 - Reply to paul gearon [on Sandro Hawke - due 2010-03-23]. 15:20:43 action: chris to update public comments list 15:20:46 Created ACTION-995 - Update public comments list [on Christopher Welty - due 2010-03-23]. 15:20:48 next item 15:21:38 Sandro summarizes issue from sparql wg 15:21:48 ... want to use sparql to use results of rif inference 15:21:49 sandro: issue is we want to use sparql to query 15:21:55 ... sparql works on graphs 15:22:21 ... to apply to rif, query a graph that imports rif 15:22:41 so sparql would have rif import 15:22:43 SPARQL can define what rules to refer to, only if we have a handle from the graph to the rules. 15:22:57 yup. 15:23:40 sandro: invites people to help, expects sparql group will have doc to review in a couple months 15:24:31 ... rdf syntax for rif has no semantics, must use axel's import to give meaning to the rules 15:25:06 we thought that defining such mechanism using a rif: owned URI would be better than a sparql: uri, since importing rif rules from RDF... and there meaingin to a triples/graphs entailed by the resp. rif-rdf-combination, may be of wider interest than SPARQL only. 15:25:10 csma: is rif entailment in rdf graph? 15:25:14 sandro: yes 15:26:45 ... may have several import profiles to address some corner cases 15:26:57 csma: why use rif namespace? 15:27:26 sandro: seems natural if in rdf and want to include rif, to use rif namespace 15:27:35 rif-owned URI would be better than a sparql: uri, since importing rif rules from RDF... and thereby meaning to a triples/graphs entailed by the resp. rif-rdf-combination, may be of wider interest than SPARQL only. 15:27:48 +1 to sandro 15:28:12 like owl:imports 15:28:40 csma: but the import stmt is in the sparql spec, so I expect to see sparql URI 15:29:22 we assumed that such mechanism is potentially of wider use than sparql only 15:29:47 ... thus more natural in rif: 15:30:41 sandro: could be in any namespace (e.g. make up a new one) but easier for users to have fewer 15:31:23 q? 15:31:35 ... we should review the working draft and see if it is clear 15:32:01 chris: seconds Sandro 15:33:49 chris: let SPARQL proceed using RIF namespace; we'll review future drafts to make sure they use it reasonably well. 15:33:56 (general agreement) 15:34:19 next item 15:35:06 close acton-989 15:35:16 close action-990 15:35:16 ACTION-990 Contact Mike Dean and ask which DTB type are supported closed 15:35:22 close action-989 15:35:22 ACTION-989 Contact mdean for list of datatypes closed 15:35:50 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Exit_Criteria 15:36:19 next item 15:36:42 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/CR_Exit 15:36:47 previous item 15:38:35 csma: missing 1 core impl 15:39:37 chris: we have a schema validator 15:40:36 sandro: but there may be syntax that is not schema validatable 15:40:40 schema can't tell if you're in Core or in a dialect that allows free variables. 15:41:34 csma: would have to check no equality in head, only ground lists, etc 15:41:34 (but I would argue that such a dialect is evil --- all extensions must include some syntactic marker of that extension) 15:42:25 csma: is a schema-validator enough? 15:42:32 sandro: I think so 15:43:18 sandro: Although there may be pathological dialects which cannot be distinguished from core, that's the failure of the dialect. 15:43:23 ... if you cannot distinguish a dialect from Core using schema validation, you have a poorly designed dialect 15:44:06 csma: we consider a Core schema validator sufficient 15:45:41 ... to meet the exit criteria 15:46:05 IRIS implements all of DTB 15:47:24 # ( ?arg1; pred:is-literal-boolean( ?arg1 ) ) 15:47:26 # ( ?arg1; pred:is-literal-PlainLiteral ( ?arg1 ) ) 15:47:27 # ( ?arg1; pred:is-literal-XMLLiteral ( ?arg1 ) ) 15:47:29 # ( ?arg1; pred:is-literal-not-boolean( ?arg1 ) ) 15:47:30 # ( ?arg1; pred:is-literal-not-PlainLiteral ( ?arg1 ) ) 15:47:31 csma: we are missing a small number of DTB builtins to have 2 impls of each 15:47:32 # ( ?arg1; pred:is-literal-not-XMLLiteral ( ?arg1 ) ) 15:50:04 sandro: there could be other bits of other specs (PRD, etc.) that are not complete 15:55:05 csma: some of the larger PRD test cases have no XML 15:55:20 -MichaelKifer 15:55:28 we are missing some test coverage 15:55:58 csma: and no impl (ILog, Oracle) passes all the PRD tests 15:58:49 sandro: need to set the "bar". Highest is we test all impls. We aren't going to do that. More practical is to lower the bar. 15:59:20 chris: e.g. OWL had some test cases that were never implemented. 16:00:56 see http://www.w3.org/2003/08/owl-systems/test-results-out#bycount and you see for OWL 1 there were zero test cases with nothing passing them and 8 test cases with only one system passing them. 16:01:22 +MichaelKifer 16:02:22 csma: is it ok to exit without good impls but with promising implementations in the works? 16:03:13 ... e.g. current impls may require some "fixup" by hand 16:04:02 sandro: I think that is probably enough 16:06:14 AdrianP has joined #rif 16:06:52 for BLD we have IRIS, Vampire prime, and Silk implementations 16:07:14 +[IPcaller] 16:07:25 Zakim, [IPcaller] is me 16:07:26 +AdrianP; got it 16:07:54 ... also Eye but some confusion about its lack of XML parser 16:09:57 chris: unioned DTB support from all reported implementations, RIFle, OBR, Eye to determine short list of missing builtins 16:18:19 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Implementations 16:18:39 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RIF_FLD_Dialects 16:20:28 csma: how can Eye be a consumer if it does not consume RIF XML? 16:21:12 chris: also fuxi has no parser (?) 16:21:46 ... must be using some other "presentation syntax" 16:23:50 csma: RDF support is the biggest issue 16:24:28 sandro: need rdf parser that can generate frames 16:25:39 ... plus need to pass import test cases 16:26:29 AxelPolleres has joined #rif 16:27:42 chris: RIFle has some RDF import support 16:28:21 csma: but RIFle is only a validator, cannot pass entailment tests for import 16:30:56 sandro: will try to implement RDF import soon 16:31:15 -MichaelKifer 16:31:24 MichaelKifer has left #rif 16:31:25 Implementations update DONE. 16:31:35 thanks 16:31:41 zakim, list attendees 16:31:41 As of this point the attendees have been Sandro, csma, ChrisW, +aaaa, +1.503.533.aabb, Gary, Leora_Morgenstern, Harold, +1.631.833.aacc, MichaelKifer, AdrianP 16:31:51 rrsagent, make minutes 16:31:51 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/16-rif-minutes.html ChrisW 16:32:04 -AdrianP 16:32:06 -Harold 16:32:11 -Leora_Morgenstern 16:32:25 zakim, list attendees 16:32:25 As of this point the attendees have been Sandro, csma, ChrisW, +aaaa, +1.503.533.aabb, Gary, Leora_Morgenstern, Harold, +1.631.833.aacc, MichaelKifer, AdrianP 16:32:35 zakim, who is on the phone 16:32:35 I don't understand 'who is on the phone', ChrisW 16:32:38 zakim, who is on the phone? 16:32:38 On the phone I see Sandro, csma, ChrisW, Gary 16:33:02 -Gary 16:41:47 -Sandro 16:41:48 -ChrisW 16:41:48 -csma 16:41:49 SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended 16:41:51 Attendees were Sandro, csma, ChrisW, +aaaa, +1.503.533.aabb, Gary, Leora_Morgenstern, Harold, +1.631.833.aacc, MichaelKifer, AdrianP 16:57:20 AxelPolleres has joined #rif 18:28:54 ChrisW has joined #rif