IRC log of rif on 2010-03-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:42:26 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:42:26 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/16-rif-irc
14:42:38 [csma]
clear agenda
14:43:28 [csma]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Mar/0040.html
14:43:40 [csma]
Chair: Christian de Sainte Marie
14:44:11 [csma]
Regrets: DaveReynolds StellaMitchell HassanAitKaci JosDeBruijn
14:45:10 [csma]
rrsagent, make log public
14:45:18 [csma]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:45:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/16-rif-minutes.html csma
14:46:36 [csma]
agendum+ Admin
14:46:49 [csma]
agendum+ liaisons
14:47:03 [csma]
agendum+ action review
14:47:18 [csma]
agendum+ Public comments
14:47:37 [csma]
agendum+ SPARQL use of RIF namespace
14:48:01 [csma]
agendum+ CR exit
14:48:30 [csma]
agendum+ Features at risk
14:48:56 [csma]
agendum+ Moving to PR
14:49:14 [csma]
agendum+ RIF primer
14:49:20 [csma]
agendum+ Test cases
14:49:31 [csma]
agendum+ AOB (next meeting)
15:00:21 [ChrisW]
ChrisW has joined #rif
15:00:29 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:00:35 [Zakim]
+Sandro
15:00:53 [Zakim]
+csma
15:01:21 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
15:01:27 [ChrisW]
zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:01:27 [Zakim]
+ChrisW; got it
15:02:55 [Zakim]
+ +aaaa
15:03:05 [Gary_Hallmark]
Gary_Hallmark has joined #rif
15:03:27 [csma]
Gary, can you scribe, today?
15:03:36 [LeoraMorgenstern]
LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:03:37 [Zakim]
+ +1.503.533.aabb
15:03:47 [Gary]
zakim, aabb is me
15:03:47 [Zakim]
+Gary; got it
15:03:57 [Zakim]
+Leora_Morgenstern
15:04:07 [csma]
Scribe: Gary Hallmark
15:04:15 [csma]
scribenick: Gary
15:06:06 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has joined #rif
15:06:26 [csma]
next item
15:06:44 [csma]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Mar/att-0038/09-rif-minutes.html
15:06:44 [Harold]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:06:44 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Sandro, csma, ChrisW, +aaaa, Gary, Leora_Morgenstern
15:06:57 [csma]
PROPOSED: accept the minutes from MArch 9
15:07:23 [csma]
RESOLVED: accept the minutes from March 9
15:07:24 [MichaelKifer]
MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:07:48 [csma]
next item
15:08:07 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is speaking
15:08:07 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is speaking', ChrisW
15:08:12 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is speaking?
15:08:23 [Zakim]
ChrisW, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: csma (43%), ChrisW (47%)
15:08:36 [ChrisW]
zakim, christian was talking more than me!
15:08:36 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'christian was talking more than me!', ChrisW
15:08:51 [ChrisW]
right, i feel that was sometimes, too
15:08:59 [ChrisW]
s/was/way/
15:09:10 [Harold]
zakim, aaaa is temporarily me
15:09:10 [Zakim]
+Harold; got it
15:09:58 [csma]
next item
15:10:44 [Zakim]
+ +1.631.833.aacc
15:10:57 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, aacc is me
15:10:57 [Zakim]
+MichaelKifer; got it
15:11:49 [Harold]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:11:49 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Sandro, csma, ChrisW, Harold, Gary, Leora_Morgenstern, MichaelKifer
15:11:54 [Gary]
I don't remember how to close these actions...
15:12:47 [ChrisW]
close action-993
15:12:47 [trackbot]
ACTION-993 Contact jderoo about DTB support or get from implementation report closed
15:13:00 [ChrisW]
close action-992
15:13:00 [trackbot]
ACTION-992 Contact changhai about DTB support closed
15:13:04 [ChrisW]
close action-991
15:13:04 [trackbot]
ACTION-991 Contact chime about DTB support closed
15:13:09 [ChrisW]
close action-988
15:13:09 [trackbot]
ACTION-988 Add note to BLD, Core about plain literals closed
15:13:13 [Gary]
thanks
15:14:30 [Gary]
close action-942
15:14:30 [trackbot]
ACTION-942 Draft reponse to TK3 (Thomas Krekeler) closed
15:14:46 [Gary]
close action-938
15:14:46 [trackbot]
ACTION-938 Draft reply to public comment AR4 closed
15:16:14 [Gary]
close action-824
15:16:14 [trackbot]
ACTION-824 Review PRD operational and model=theoretic conditions are = closed
15:16:23 [csma]
next item
15:18:56 [Gary]
sandro: need to respond to public comment from Paul Gearon on 2009-11-5
15:20:29 [ChrisW]
action: sandro reply to paul gearon
15:20:29 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-994 - Reply to paul gearon [on Sandro Hawke - due 2010-03-23].
15:20:43 [ChrisW]
action: chris to update public comments list
15:20:46 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-995 - Update public comments list [on Christopher Welty - due 2010-03-23].
15:20:48 [csma]
next item
15:21:38 [ChrisW]
Sandro summarizes issue from sparql wg
15:21:48 [ChrisW]
... want to use sparql to use results of rif inference
15:21:49 [Gary]
sandro: issue is we want to use sparql to query
15:21:55 [Gary]
... sparql works on graphs
15:22:21 [Gary]
... to apply to rif, query a graph that imports rif
15:22:41 [Gary]
so sparql would have rif import
15:22:43 [AxelPolleres]
SPARQL can define what rules to refer to, only if we have a handle from the graph to the rules.
15:22:57 [AxelPolleres]
yup.
15:23:40 [Gary]
sandro: invites people to help, expects sparql group will have doc to review in a couple months
15:24:31 [Gary]
... rdf syntax for rif has no semantics, must use axel's import to give meaning to the rules
15:25:06 [AxelPolleres]
we thought that defining such mechanism using a rif: owned URI would be better than a sparql: uri, since importing rif rules from RDF... and there meaingin to a triples/graphs entailed by the resp. rif-rdf-combination, may be of wider interest than SPARQL only.
15:25:10 [Gary]
csma: is rif entailment in rdf graph?
15:25:14 [Gary]
sandro: yes
15:26:45 [Gary]
... may have several import profiles to address some corner cases
15:26:57 [Gary]
csma: why use rif namespace?
15:27:26 [Gary]
sandro: seems natural if in rdf and want to include rif, to use rif namespace
15:27:35 [AxelPolleres]
rif-owned URI would be better than a sparql: uri, since importing rif rules from RDF... and thereby meaning to a triples/graphs entailed by the resp. rif-rdf-combination, may be of wider interest than SPARQL only.
15:27:48 [AxelPolleres]
+1 to sandro
15:28:12 [AxelPolleres]
like owl:imports
15:28:40 [Gary]
csma: but the import stmt is in the sparql spec, so I expect to see sparql URI
15:29:22 [AxelPolleres]
we assumed that such mechanism is potentially of wider use than sparql only
15:29:47 [AxelPolleres]
... thus more natural in rif:
15:30:41 [Gary]
sandro: could be in any namespace (e.g. make up a new one) but easier for users to have fewer
15:31:23 [csma]
q?
15:31:35 [Gary]
... we should review the working draft and see if it is clear
15:32:01 [Gary]
chris: seconds Sandro
15:33:49 [sandro]
chris: let SPARQL proceed using RIF namespace; we'll review future drafts to make sure they use it reasonably well.
15:33:56 [sandro]
(general agreement)
15:34:19 [csma]
next item
15:35:06 [Gary]
close acton-989
15:35:16 [Gary]
close action-990
15:35:16 [trackbot]
ACTION-990 Contact Mike Dean and ask which DTB type are supported closed
15:35:22 [Gary]
close action-989
15:35:22 [trackbot]
ACTION-989 Contact mdean for list of datatypes closed
15:35:50 [csma]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Exit_Criteria
15:36:19 [Gary]
next item
15:36:42 [sandro]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/CR_Exit
15:36:47 [Gary]
previous item
15:38:35 [Gary]
csma: missing 1 core impl
15:39:37 [Gary]
chris: we have a schema validator
15:40:36 [Gary]
sandro: but there may be syntax that is not schema validatable
15:40:40 [sandro]
schema can't tell if you're in Core or in a dialect that allows free variables.
15:41:34 [Gary]
csma: would have to check no equality in head, only ground lists, etc
15:41:34 [sandro]
(but I would argue that such a dialect is evil --- all extensions must include some syntactic marker of that extension)
15:42:25 [Gary]
csma: is a schema-validator enough?
15:42:32 [Gary]
sandro: I think so
15:43:18 [sandro]
sandro: Although there may be pathological dialects which cannot be distinguished from core, that's the failure of the dialect.
15:43:23 [Gary]
... if you cannot distinguish a dialect from Core using schema validation, you have a poorly designed dialect
15:44:06 [Gary]
csma: we consider a Core schema validator sufficient
15:45:41 [Gary]
... to meet the exit criteria
15:46:05 [Gary]
IRIS implements all of DTB
15:47:24 [csma]
# ( ?arg1; pred:is-literal-boolean( ?arg1 ) )
15:47:26 [csma]
# ( ?arg1; pred:is-literal-PlainLiteral ( ?arg1 ) )
15:47:27 [csma]
# ( ?arg1; pred:is-literal-XMLLiteral ( ?arg1 ) )
15:47:29 [csma]
# ( ?arg1; pred:is-literal-not-boolean( ?arg1 ) )
15:47:30 [csma]
# ( ?arg1; pred:is-literal-not-PlainLiteral ( ?arg1 ) )
15:47:31 [Gary]
csma: we are missing a small number of DTB builtins to have 2 impls of each
15:47:32 [csma]
# ( ?arg1; pred:is-literal-not-XMLLiteral ( ?arg1 ) )
15:50:04 [Gary]
sandro: there could be other bits of other specs (PRD, etc.) that are not complete
15:55:05 [Gary]
csma: some of the larger PRD test cases have no XML
15:55:20 [Zakim]
-MichaelKifer
15:55:28 [Gary]
we are missing some test coverage
15:55:58 [Gary]
csma: and no impl (ILog, Oracle) passes all the PRD tests
15:58:49 [Gary]
sandro: need to set the "bar". Highest is we test all impls. We aren't going to do that. More practical is to lower the bar.
15:59:20 [Gary]
chris: e.g. OWL had some test cases that were never implemented.
16:00:56 [sandro]
see http://www.w3.org/2003/08/owl-systems/test-results-out#bycount and you see for OWL 1 there were zero test cases with nothing passing them and 8 test cases with only one system passing them.
16:01:22 [Zakim]
+MichaelKifer
16:02:22 [Gary]
csma: is it ok to exit without good impls but with promising implementations in the works?
16:03:13 [Gary]
... e.g. current impls may require some "fixup" by hand
16:04:02 [Gary]
sandro: I think that is probably enough
16:06:14 [AdrianP]
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16:06:52 [Gary]
for BLD we have IRIS, Vampire prime, and Silk implementations
16:07:14 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
16:07:25 [AdrianP]
Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
16:07:26 [Zakim]
+AdrianP; got it
16:07:54 [Gary]
... also Eye but some confusion about its lack of XML parser
16:09:57 [Gary]
chris: unioned DTB support from all reported implementations, RIFle, OBR, Eye to determine short list of missing builtins
16:18:19 [ChrisW]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Implementations
16:18:39 [Harold]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RIF_FLD_Dialects
16:20:28 [Gary]
csma: how can Eye be a consumer if it does not consume RIF XML?
16:21:12 [Gary]
chris: also fuxi has no parser (?)
16:21:46 [Gary]
... must be using some other "presentation syntax"
16:23:50 [Gary]
csma: RDF support is the biggest issue
16:24:28 [Gary]
sandro: need rdf parser that can generate frames
16:25:39 [Gary]
... plus need to pass import test cases
16:26:29 [AxelPolleres]
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16:27:42 [Gary]
chris: RIFle has some RDF import support
16:28:21 [Gary]
csma: but RIFle is only a validator, cannot pass entailment tests for import
16:30:56 [Gary]
sandro: will try to implement RDF import soon
16:31:15 [Zakim]
-MichaelKifer
16:31:24 [MichaelKifer]
MichaelKifer has left #rif
16:31:25 [Harold]
Implementations update DONE.
16:31:35 [ChrisW]
thanks
16:31:41 [ChrisW]
zakim, list attendees
16:31:41 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Sandro, csma, ChrisW, +aaaa, +1.503.533.aabb, Gary, Leora_Morgenstern, Harold, +1.631.833.aacc, MichaelKifer, AdrianP
16:31:51 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:31:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/16-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:32:04 [Zakim]
-AdrianP
16:32:06 [Zakim]
-Harold
16:32:11 [Zakim]
-Leora_Morgenstern
16:32:25 [ChrisW]
zakim, list attendees
16:32:25 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been Sandro, csma, ChrisW, +aaaa, +1.503.533.aabb, Gary, Leora_Morgenstern, Harold, +1.631.833.aacc, MichaelKifer, AdrianP
16:32:35 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone
16:32:35 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is on the phone', ChrisW
16:32:38 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:32:38 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Sandro, csma, ChrisW, Gary
16:33:02 [Zakim]
-Gary
16:41:47 [Zakim]
-Sandro
16:41:48 [Zakim]
-ChrisW
16:41:48 [Zakim]
-csma
16:41:49 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:41:51 [Zakim]
Attendees were Sandro, csma, ChrisW, +aaaa, +1.503.533.aabb, Gary, Leora_Morgenstern, Harold, +1.631.833.aacc, MichaelKifer, AdrianP
16:57:20 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has joined #rif
18:28:54 [ChrisW]
ChrisW has joined #rif