14:17:19 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
14:17:19 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/11-rdfa-irc
14:17:21 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:17:21 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfa
14:17:23 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332
14:17:23 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 43 minutes
14:17:24 <trackbot> Meeting: RDFa Working Group Teleconference
14:17:24 <trackbot> Date: 11 March 2010
14:18:29 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: WG Telco, 2010-03-11, agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010Mar/0059.html
14:32:39 <manu> manu has joined #rdfa
14:32:52 <ivan> hey manu
14:32:57 <manu> Hi Ivan :)
14:39:10 <ivan> I cannot really change the header of the working group mailing list, I would have to go to systeam for that
14:39:32 <ivan> that is the problem; it should have been done when setting up the list
14:39:35 <ivan> my mistake
14:39:39 <ivan> yeah
14:39:56 <ivan> I did change the one of the public list
14:40:22 <ivan> is it worth going through that hassle? Let us wait until somebody else gets to the same problem...
14:41:13 <ivan> hm
14:41:28 <ivan> remember our discussion on how to set up the lists? :-)
14:42:49 <manu> I can contact the system team if you'd like with text that would correct the issue?
14:43:08 <ivan> I can do that, if you give me a text...
14:51:38 <Knud> Knud has joined #rdfa
14:58:51 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started
14:58:53 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa
14:58:58 <Zakim> +ShaneM
14:59:11 <Steven> Steven has joined #rdfa
14:59:28 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:59:33 <manu> zakim, I am [IP
14:59:33 <Zakim> ok, manu, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
14:59:54 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
14:59:54 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
14:59:55 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:00:30 <Zakim> +Benjamin
15:00:48 <Benjamin> hi everybody
15:01:20 <Zakim> +Knud
15:02:07 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
15:02:07 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:02:09 <Zakim> +Steven
15:03:00 <Steven> zakim, who is noisy?
15:03:09 <tinkster> tinkster has joined #rdfa
15:03:11 <Zakim> Steven, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ShaneM (62%), [IPcaller] (4%), Knud (27%), Ivan (4%), Steven (5%)
15:03:17 <Zakim> +tinkster
15:03:33 <Knud> zakim, mute me
15:03:33 <Zakim> Knud should now be muted
15:03:54 <Knud> now I'm mute. :)
15:04:02 <tinkster> I will probably have to send regrets for next two weeks then.
15:04:05 <tinkster> Hello.
15:04:32 <tinkster> I don't mind doing it.
15:04:32 <Steven> Scribe: Steven
15:05:17 <Steven> Note that the call is one hour earlier for Europeans next week and the week after
15:05:23 <Steven> zakim, mute me
15:05:23 <Zakim> Steven should now be muted
15:05:35 <Steven> Topic: Action Items
15:05:38 <manu> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/actions/open
15:05:54 <Steven> Manu: Action 5 for Ivan?
15:05:57 <RobW> RobW has joined #rdfa
15:06:12 <Steven> ... mark as done?
15:06:15 <manu> ACTION-5?
15:06:15 <trackbot> ACTION-5 -- Mark Birbeck to generate spec text for pulling in external vocabulary documents -- due 2010-03-18 -- OPEN
15:06:15 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/actions/5
15:06:19 <Steven> Ivan: the discussion is still ongoing
15:06:22 <manu> trackbot, close ACTION-5 
15:06:22 <trackbot> ACTION-5 Generate spec text for pulling in external vocabulary documents closed
15:06:46 <manu> trackbot, comment ACTION-5 Ivan produced a merged specification explaining how to pull in external vocabulary documents.
15:06:46 <trackbot> ACTION-5 Generate spec text for pulling in external vocabulary documents notes added
15:06:56 <Steven> Manu: URL for that Ivan?
15:07:04 <Steven> Ivan: Just a moment, watch the IRC
15:07:24 <Steven> Manu: I will fix the descriptions of the list
15:07:28 <ivan> -> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/drafts/2010/ED-vocab-20100305/ vocabulary document (version 1)
15:07:38 <Steven> Regrets: MarkB
15:07:52 <Steven> Topic: ISSUE-1 RDFa Vocabularies (on Mark)
15:07:53 <ivan> -> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/drafts/2010/ED-vocab-20100311/ vocabulary document (version 2)
15:07:56 <manu> The things that we may have consensus on:
15:07:58 <manu> * RDFa profiles are specified in an external document (profile document)
15:08:00 <manu> * We should use the @profile attribute to specify the profile document
15:08:01 <manu> * The @profile attribute can be placed on any element and is scoped
15:08:03 <manu>   to the element on which it is defined and its children
15:08:05 <manu> * The profile document is marked up in RDFa, using a vocabulary 
15:08:07 <manu>   designed to modify the behavior of the RDFa Processor
15:08:08 <manu> * The default profile document can be specified in the RDFa Core spec. 
15:08:10 <manu>   This document will outline what prefixes and tokens are pre-defined
15:08:11 <manu> * The profile document can specify tokens and prefixes
15:08:13 <manu> * One does not use xmlns: to declare prefixes and tokens
15:08:17 <Zakim> +RobW
15:09:22 <ivan> q+
15:09:33 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:09:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/11-rdfa-minutes.html Steven
15:09:50 <tinkster> ... but that <head profile> applies to *whole* document.
15:09:54 <Steven> Ivan: I'm not sure all of these do have consensus
15:10:05 <Steven> ... such as the xmlns one
15:10:23 <Steven> Chair: Manu
15:10:38 <Zakim> -ShaneM
15:10:41 <Zakim> +ShaneM
15:11:17 <Steven> Manu: I thought there was opposition to the JSON method, so then there was one proposal left
15:11:27 <Steven> Ivan: There are two issues
15:11:46 <Steven> ... whether we use an RDF vocabulary for prefixes and tokens, and then how we serialise
15:12:08 <Steven> ... I thought Mark was not in favour of the first bit
15:12:12 <Steven> ... though I and Ben are
15:12:39 <Steven> Manu: So the last bullet point and what Ivan has just said are dependent on each other
15:12:51 <Steven> ... Mark said we should be able to use xmlns for prefixes and tokens
15:12:55 <Steven> Ivan: You are right
15:13:00 <Steven> ... I am against that as welll
15:13:05 <Steven> s/lll/ll/
15:13:40 <Steven> Manu: There was a problem of leakage of prefixes into the authors document
15:14:36 <Steven> ... we may have consensus on the RDFa as profile bit
15:14:54 <Steven> ... we may want dc and foaf in the predefined prefixes
15:15:13 <Steven> ... we would do that by saying if there is no profile specified then use this one by default
15:15:17 <Steven> ... agree?
15:15:26 <Steven> q+
15:15:33 <ivan> ack ivan
15:15:39 <Steven> ack me
15:15:50 <manu> Steven: Do we really need to have a profile? 
15:15:56 <ivan> q+
15:16:11 <Steven> s/profile/default profile/
15:16:26 <Steven> Manu: we wanted to have a default case that was available without using profile
15:16:36 <tinkster> Would the default profile apply to XHTML+RDFa 1.1? or RDFa Core 1.1?
15:17:11 <Steven> Steven: What is the advantage over saying that the defaults are always there?
15:17:37 <Steven> Manu: There are two possibilities: overlaying your profile over the default
15:18:09 <Steven> ... or replacing the default with your profile
15:18:23 <tinkster> Other host languages might prefer different default profiles.
15:18:57 <ivan> q?
15:19:00 <Steven> Manu: Answering Toby's question [scribe missed]
15:19:14 <Steven> Manu: Does ODF have a viewpoint on this?
15:19:19 <Steven> Rob: Not really
15:19:34 <Steven> Manu: I would expect ODF to want a different set of defaults
15:20:08 <Steven> Rob: THe vocabs we are seeing in ODF1.2 are about embedded vcards, events etc; no FOAF
15:20:13 <Steven> s/TH/Th/
15:20:28 <Steven> q+
15:20:40 <Steven> Ivan: My proposal is we should postpone this discussion
15:20:48 <Steven> ... we don't know what a profile doc will contain
15:21:01 <Steven> ... so the default issue is prematire
15:21:07 <Steven> s/tire/ture/
15:21:32 <Steven> Manu: Fine
15:21:40 <Steven> q-
15:22:07 <ivan> q-
15:22:28 <Steven> Steven: FOr ODF there is no real problem with always having an explicit @profiule, since the authoring arguments don't apply
15:22:33 <Steven> s/FO/Fo/
15:22:39 <Steven> s/iule/ile/
15:23:03 <Steven> Manu: If we want the concept of a default profile we need to be able to support prefixes in a profile document
15:23:26 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:23:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/11-rdfa-minutes.html Steven
15:23:32 <Steven> Ivan: I think the list if fine
15:23:58 <Steven> ... I'm not sure if we have consensus about dropping JSON
15:24:27 <Steven> Manu: THere are security implications associated with it, and CORS will solve it, and so will the RDFa API
15:24:34 <Steven> s/TH/Th/
15:24:47 <Steven> ... and we don't want to mark up in two different ways
15:24:49 <Steven> q+
15:25:03 <Steven> Ivan: What does Toby think?
15:25:20 <Steven> Toby: The format should be RDF of some kind
15:25:58 <Steven> ... in any serialisation, but only RDFa is the only required one
15:26:20 <Steven> q?
15:27:18 <ivan> q+
15:27:18 <Steven> Steven: I think it is the wrong way round - there is no consensus on *adding* JSON
15:27:25 <Steven> Shane: I agree strongly
15:27:41 <manu> The things that we still have to discuss:
15:27:43 <Steven> Manu: I would still like to hear Mark; he will have to fight hard though
15:27:43 <manu> * What happens when you can't dereference the profile document? (Toby's proposal)
15:27:45 <manu> * Are we limiting next/prev/index/license/etc to @rel/@rev or allowing them everywhere?
15:27:46 <ivan> ack Steven 
15:27:46 <manu> * What is the mental model are tokens/prefixes two different concepts in RDFa or are they the same thing?
15:27:47 <ivan> q-
15:27:48 <manu> * Are there backwards compatibility issues with the proposed path forward?
15:28:04 <Steven> Ivan: I agree with TOby
15:28:09 <Steven> s/TO/To/
15:28:17 <Steven> ... RDFa is the only required serialization
15:28:17 <ShaneM> Me too
15:28:45 <Steven> zakim, mute me
15:28:45 <Zakim> Steven should now be muted
15:29:37 <Steven> Manu: Mark seems to be concerned with the relation between token and prefix
15:29:55 <Steven> ... and there are backward compatibility issues
15:30:04 <Steven> ... Any other issues?
15:30:12 <Steven> Ivan: No
15:30:46 <Steven> ... how will we decide?
15:31:27 <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010Mar/0059
15:31:33 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:31:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/11-rdfa-minutes.html Steven
15:32:17 <Steven> Ivan: We have already had two versions of this document
15:32:50 <Steven> ... I would like to see a feeling for which direction
15:33:45 <Steven> ... we have to move on
15:33:49 <Steven> q+
15:33:54 <Steven> ack me
15:34:19 <manu> Steven: There is no immediate hurry to move forward - we may want to let this stuff sink in for a while.
15:34:28 <Steven> zakim, mute me
15:34:28 <Zakim> Steven should now be muted
15:35:07 <Steven> Manu: A lot of the decisions are interrelated, and that's why I would like a bit more time to hold back on making a firm decision
15:35:57 <Steven> Manu: I think we should point to the latest document, and then work with that
15:36:48 <Steven> Ivan: The decision on the restriction of tokens to @rel @rev is important
15:36:57 <tinkster> Another possibility is allowing profiles to define keywords that only apply to particular attributes.
15:37:07 <ivan> q+
15:37:08 <Steven> Manu: Anyone object to allowing all tokens everywhere?
15:37:25 <tinkster> e.g. typeof="Person"
15:38:06 <manu> q+ manu
15:38:10 <manu> ack ivan
15:38:13 <Steven> Ivan: Then the management of keywords and prefixes becomes very different
15:38:21 <Steven> Shahe: FOr an implementation?
15:38:25 <Steven> Ivan: No
15:38:29 <Steven> s/FO/Fo/
15:38:41 <Steven> s/Shahe/Shane/
15:39:02 <Benjamin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010Mar/0068.html
15:39:10 <Steven> Topic: RDFa API Direction
15:39:30 <Steven> Benjamin: See the above mail
15:39:35 <Steven> ... why is an API needed?
15:39:49 <Steven> ... I looked at the code  of some of the libraries
15:40:03 <Steven> ... and how could an API help to reduce them
15:40:15 <Steven> ... conclusion - most of the code is for HTML attributews
15:40:20 <Steven> s/ws/s/
15:40:27 <Steven> ... and so an API could help
15:40:39 <Steven> ... developers have to use some form of recursion
15:40:44 <Steven> ... an API may help that
15:40:55 <tinkster> yes
15:40:56 <Steven> ... I looked at Operator for Firefox
15:40:58 <manu> yes
15:40:59 <Knud> yup
15:41:21 <Steven> ... RDFa DOM API may help for that sort of app
15:41:50 <Steven> ... an API can hide the difference between URIs and CURIEs
15:42:02 <Steven> .. and external definitions in profiles
15:42:10 <Steven> s/../.../
15:42:12 <manu> q+
15:43:07 <Steven> Manu: Are we focussing on RDFa parser developers, or web pagfe developers?
15:43:12 <Steven> ... I think the latter
15:43:24 <ShaneM> q+ to ask about audience
15:43:25 <tinkster> Certainly, to help page authors. The parser would be built into the browser.
15:43:27 <Steven> s/pagf/pag/
15:43:30 <manu> ack manu
15:43:34 <Knud> I think the latter
15:43:36 <manu> ack [IP
15:43:48 <manu> ack ShaneM
15:43:48 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to ask about audience
15:44:34 <tinkster> DocA loads DocB in an iframe, and extracts triples from DocB.
15:44:51 <Knud> useful for mashups?
15:44:54 <Steven> Shane: WHo is our audience for this?
15:44:59 <Steven> s/WH/Wh/
15:45:18 <Steven> Manu: App writers, crawlers
15:45:59 <Benjamin> q+
15:46:43 <tinkster> Also GreaseMonkey/Opera User Scripts...
15:46:45 <Steven> ... extracting the triples
15:46:58 <Steven> Shane: So native in a browser, or a library?
15:47:07 <Steven> Manu: Yes
15:47:13 <manu> ack Benjamin
15:47:32 <Steven> Benjamin: If we have an API, we don't need RDFa parsers anymore?
15:47:32 <tinkster> The parser powers the API.
15:47:34 <Steven> Manu: Yes
15:47:45 <Steven> Shane: At least on the client side
15:48:06 <Steven> Ivan: So my distiller will still be used.
15:48:14 <tinkster> Even though we have XML DOM, we still need XML parsers!
15:48:19 <Steven> Manu: We want to make it easier for web developers to use
15:48:40 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:48:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/11-rdfa-minutes.html Steven
15:49:06 <Steven> Benjamin: So the real focus is to extract RDF triples
15:49:15 <Steven> ... and it should be possible to query
15:49:27 <manu> q+ to discuss add/removal of RDF triples
15:49:29 <Steven> ... add triples, and remove them
15:49:42 <Steven> ... those last two may be optional
15:49:51 <manu> ack [IP
15:49:51 <Zakim> [IPcaller], you wanted to discuss add/removal of RDF triples
15:50:05 <Steven> zakim, [IP is Manu
15:50:05 <Zakim> +Manu; got it
15:50:16 <ivan> +1 to the current order
15:50:23 <Steven> Manu: Not sure about 2, and against 3 and 4
15:50:35 <tinkster> #3 is hard; #4 is easy but not especially useful without #3.
15:50:36 <Steven> ... at least in the first version
15:50:43 <Steven> ... maybe we can build it up by stages
15:51:15 <ShaneM> I agree with Toby - you would need a CSS selector-like query interface... SPARQL in the browser
15:51:35 <Steven> Manu: It would be difficult to do 3 and 4
15:51:51 <Steven> Ivan: I think 1 and 2 should be the focus for now
15:52:20 <Steven> Benjamin: We need to define the cut between the RDFa DOM API and the triplestore API
15:52:46 <ivan> q+
15:52:57 <Steven> Manu: Big unanswered question
15:53:05 <Steven> Ivan: Toby collected some APIs as examples
15:53:09 <tinkster> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/wiki/RDF-API
15:53:19 <manu> q+ to discuss how this hooks into ODF and SVG
15:53:23 <manu> ack ivan
15:53:31 <Steven> ... but what a triplestore API can do in a browser is unclear at the moment
15:54:05 <Steven> ... it is right to divide them
15:54:23 <manu> ack Manu
15:54:23 <Zakim> Manu, you wanted to discuss how this hooks into ODF and SVG
15:54:26 <Steven> ... for the time being, treat as separate
15:54:39 <ShaneM> +1 to permitting extracted triples to be put into a local triple store
15:55:04 <Steven> Manu: We may want to decide if there are triggers that require the one API to use the other
15:55:25 <Steven> ... safety and privacy issues need attention
15:55:34 <Steven> ... shouldn't focus on the triplestore API
15:55:59 <Steven> ... we may want to see how the DOM API matches the SVG DOM API
15:56:05 <Steven> ... and there's ODF as well
15:56:17 <Steven> Rob: No standardised DOM representation as of now
15:56:28 <Steven> Manu: We should watch that though
15:56:40 <Steven> .. and talk to Doug Schepers too
15:57:02 <Steven> Ivan: I have used the SVG DOM, I don't foresee a problem
15:57:16 <Steven> ... it is a read-only API
15:57:35 <Benjamin> q+ to talk about the first sketch at http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/wiki/RDFa-DOM-API
15:57:46 <Steven> ... only if we start adding and removing triples do I see a problem
15:57:49 <manu> ack Benjamin
15:57:49 <Zakim> Benjamin, you wanted to talk about the first sketch at http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/wiki/RDFa-DOM-API
15:58:07 <Steven> Benjamin: Just to mention the first version
15:58:38 <ShaneM> Do we envision this is a 'live' list that is updated as there are mutation events, or a static list that must be updated by the developer as needed?
15:58:38 <Steven> ... we should play with it
15:58:41 <Steven> ... try it out
15:58:51 <ivan> q+
15:58:57 <manu> ack ivan
15:59:23 <Steven> Ivan: Looking at the microdata API would be a good comparison
15:59:24 <manu> q+ to end the meeting.
15:59:40 <Steven> ... try to keep them similar
15:59:44 <tinkster> IIRC microdata API is quite resource-based, whereas current RDFa suggestion quite triple-based.
15:59:59 <Steven> ack me
16:00:04 <Steven> q+
16:00:25 <manu> ack Manu
16:00:25 <Zakim> Manu, you wanted to end the meeting.
16:00:27 <Steven> Ivan: Don't forget the time changes
16:00:28 <manu> ack Steven
16:01:05 <Steven> Steven: Ivan and I can't make the call in two week's time, because of the W3C AC meeting
16:01:11 <tinkster> bye all!
16:01:16 <Knud> bye!
16:01:18 <Steven> Ivan: And I will miss the call after that as well
16:01:23 <Steven> [ADJOURN]
16:01:26 <Zakim> -RobW
16:01:27 <Benjamin> bye
16:01:29 <Steven> zakim, list attendees
16:01:30 <Zakim> -ShaneM
16:01:34 <Zakim> -tinkster
16:01:36 <Zakim> -Steven
16:01:38 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been ShaneM, [IPcaller], Ivan, Benjamin, Knud, Steven, tinkster, RobW, Manu
16:01:40 <Zakim> -Knud
16:01:42 <Zakim> -Benjamin
16:01:44 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
16:01:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/11-rdfa-minutes.html Steven
16:11:10 <Zakim> -Ivan
16:11:12 <Zakim> -Manu
16:11:14 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended
16:11:15 <Zakim> Attendees were ShaneM, [IPcaller], Ivan, Benjamin, Knud, Steven, tinkster, RobW, Manu
16:12:03 <manu> ACTION: Manu to send out a "state of RDFa Profiles" e-mail listing remaining consensus items
16:12:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-15 - Send out a "state of RDFa Profiles" e-mail listing remaining consensus items [on Manu Sporny - due 2010-03-18].
16:12:14 <ShaneM> ShaneM has left #rdfa
17:03:32 <manu> rrsagent, bye
17:03:32 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/11-rdfa-actions.rdf :
17:03:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Manu to send out a "state of RDFa Profiles" e-mail listing remaining consensus items [1]
17:03:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/11-rdfa-irc#T16-12-03
17:03:35 <manu> zakim, bye
17:03:35 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdfa
17:03:37 <manu> trackbot, bye
17:03:37 <trackbot> trackbot has left #rdfa