16:02:25 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #swxg
16:02:25 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/10-swxg-irc
16:02:27 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:02:27 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #swxg
16:02:29 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7994
16:02:29 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see INC_SWXG()11:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
16:02:30 <trackbot> Meeting: Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference
16:02:30 <trackbot> Date: 10 March 2010
16:02:46 <Zakim> INC_SWXG()11:00AM has now started
16:02:53 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
16:03:05 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:03:05 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
16:03:08 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:03:08 <Zakim> sorry, MacTed, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
16:04:18 <MacTed> bah.  missed the hour delay note.
16:04:19 <hajons> hajons has joined #swxg
16:04:25 <Zakim> -MacTed
16:04:26 <Zakim> INC_SWXG()11:00AM has ended
16:04:26 <Zakim> Attendees were MacTed
16:05:01 <Zakim> INC_SWXG()11:00AM has now started
16:05:08 <Zakim> +cperey
16:05:58 <cperey> cperey has joined #swxg
16:06:13 <MacTed> trackbot, end meeting
16:06:13 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:06:13 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been cperey
16:06:14 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:06:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/10-swxg-minutes.html trackbot
16:06:15 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:06:15 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
16:59:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #swxg
16:59:13 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/10-swxg-irc
16:59:15 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:59:17 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7994
16:59:17 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see INC_SWXG()11:00AM scheduled to start 59 minutes ago
16:59:18 <trackbot> Meeting: Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference
16:59:18 <trackbot> Date: 10 March 2010
17:00:14 <DKA> zakim, who's here?
17:00:14 <Zakim> I notice INC_SWXG()11:00AM has restarted
17:00:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see DKA
17:00:26 <mischat_> mischat_ has joined #swxg
17:01:44 <Zakim> +??P12
17:02:04 <Zakim> +Marcos
17:02:06 <mischat> zakim, mute me +??P12
17:02:06 <Zakim> I don't understand 'mute me +??P12', mischat
17:02:13 <mischat> zakim +??P12 is me
17:02:34 <mischat> zakim ?P12 is me 
17:02:44 <Zakim> + +0161238aaaa
17:02:54 <mischat> zakim ??P12 is me 
17:03:06 <Marcos> Marcos has joined #swxg
17:03:10 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:03:16 <mischat> zakim, ??P12 is me 
17:03:16 <Zakim> +mischat; got it
17:03:24 <mischat> zakim, mute me 
17:03:24 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
17:03:48 <darobin> darobin has joined #swxg
17:04:04 <darobin> Zakim, [IPCaller] is me
17:04:04 <Zakim> +darobin; got it
17:04:33 <Marcos> mischat === harry ? 
17:04:34 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
17:04:41 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
17:04:41 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
17:04:43 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
17:04:43 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
17:04:47 <mischat> ok DKA 
17:05:01 <mischat> i can scribe
17:05:03 <Zakim> +cperey
17:05:07 <DKA> Scribe: mischat
17:05:11 <Zakim> +??P25
17:05:12 <DKA> ScribeNick: mischat
17:05:13 <danbri> zakim, ??P25 is danbri
17:05:13 <Zakim> +danbri; got it
17:05:18 <cperey> hi
17:06:07 <DKA> PROPOSED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 3 March 2010 as a true record ( http://www.w3.org/2010/03/03-swxg-minutes.html )
17:06:07 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2010/03/10-swxg-minutes.html 
17:06:18 <cperey> +1
17:06:21 <DKA> +1
17:06:48 <mischat> this call is limited to an hour 
17:07:14 <DKA> PROPOSED: to meet again Wed. March 17th.
17:07:23 <mischat> the focus of today's meeting will be on the widgets talk 
17:07:26 <danbri> some historical notes in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/WidgetsDiscussion ... not sure how timely they still are
17:07:43 <mischat> DKA give regrets for next weeks call 
17:08:06 <mischat> and administrative topics, worth mentioning, please do so now 
17:08:11 <mischat> s/and/any/
17:08:16 <danbri> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-socialweb/2010Mar/0017.html
17:08:51 <danbri> DKA: I'm a widgetarian and proud of it
17:09:08 <mischat> Widgets is one of those words which has lots of connotations dependant on context 
17:09:40 <Zakim> +bblfish
17:09:45 <mischat> in the W3C context DKA, Marcos, and darobin have been working on the W3C Widgets 
17:10:11 <Marcos> A widget is defined by the [Widgets-Landscape]  as "an end-user's conceptualization of an interactive single purpose application for displaying and/or updating local data or data on the Web, packaged in a way to allow a single download and installation on a user's machine, mobile phone, or Internet-enabled device". 
17:10:15 <mischat> widgets have taken on a new another meaning in social space, that is of functionality in a social container 
17:10:18 <danbri> (in a previous life, I worked with Robin and Libby Miller on widgets for TV stuff)
17:10:49 <mischat> 3 invited speakers Marcos, darobin, and ??? from apache 
17:10:51 <Zakim> +AnitaD
17:10:57 <darobin> s/???/Scott/
17:11:00 <mischat> ah scott
17:11:04 <mischat> thanks darobin 
17:11:21 <mischat> Scott to start taking about the Apache project and what they are doing with Widgets 
17:11:24 <bblfish> bblfish has joined #swxg
17:11:47 <Anita> Anita has joined #swxg
17:11:52 <mischat> Scott, uses widgets, gadgets, and apps interchangeably 
17:11:56 <mischat> Wookie ?
17:11:59 <mischat> url someone please 
17:12:10 <darobin> yes Wookie
17:12:25 <mischat> Apache Incubator project called Wookie, implements the W3C Widget API
17:12:34 <darobin> -> http://incubator.apache.org/wookie/
17:12:40 <mischat> thanks darobin 
17:12:58 <Zakim> +??P35
17:12:59 <mischat> Wookie team wanted to support collaborative, multi-user widgets
17:13:13 <melvster> zakim, ??P35 is me
17:13:13 <Zakim> +melvster; got it
17:13:26 <mischat> the W3C API is neutral to the number of users who are said to work with a given widget
17:14:01 <mischat> so Wookie implemented the Google Wave API to add collaborative functionality to the W3C Widget API
17:14:24 <mischat> there are integration points between the Wookie widgets and shindig widgets 
17:14:26 <darobin> -> http://shindig.apache.org/
17:14:36 <mischat> where Shindig apps are Open Social Widgets 
17:14:42 <darobin> [ShinDig is an OpenSocial implementation]
17:14:49 <mischat> thanks again 
17:15:16 <mischat> danbri is asking about Open Social, and how they use OAuth and authentication APIs
17:16:01 <darobin> on authentication methods, see Powerbox http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-apis/2010Feb/att-0140/Overview.html
17:16:03 <mischat> Wookie does the same thing as Open Social, they exchange tokens to create trust between widgets and APIs
17:16:45 <danbri> eg. http://sites.google.com/site/oauthgoog/2leggedoauth/2opensocialrestapi
17:17:22 <mischat> both Shindig and Wookie server widgets as iframe in webpages, which ends up going through trusted proxys
17:17:34 <danbri> q+ to ask about top 3 things w3c-and-friends might do to reduce pain for developers learning these techs
17:17:45 <darobin> WARP is http://www.w3.org/TR/widgets-access/
17:17:49 <mischat> DKA, is breaking up 
17:17:56 <darobin> q+ to mention Powerbox
17:18:22 <mischat> DKA, what type of feedback have you had from the community (outside of the standards body) re: W3C widgets
17:18:47 <mischat> most people downloading wookie, seem to be people outside the standards body, which elgg 
17:18:48 <melvster> http://elgg.org/
17:19:02 <Yuk> Yuk has joined #swxg
17:19:08 <mischat> which include elgg, an open decentralised social network
17:19:26 <mischat> most people interested in collaboration tend to use shindig 
17:19:27 <DKA> ack danbri
17:19:27 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to ask about top 3 things w3c-and-friends might do to reduce pain for developers learning these techs
17:19:28 <danbri> shindig uses terrifying amounts of js
17:20:26 <mischat> danbri, from a developer point of view how could you reduce the barrier to entry by uniting the two different APIs (shindig & wookie)
17:20:34 <danbri> re packaging, i quite like Mozilla Jetpack's non-packaging approach (raw .js urls)
17:20:57 <darobin> danbri, that doesn't make it easy to carry things across systems though
17:21:28 <mischat> the two specs seem to have clearer APIs now, which should make it easier for developers to create widgets 
17:21:43 <darobin> -> http://www.w3.org/TR/widgets-apis/
17:21:43 <bblfish> are those APIs or dataformats ( re: "people api, album api, …")
17:22:25 <mischat> Wookie has implemented most of the W3C API already
17:22:36 <Zakim> +??P36
17:22:41 <DKA> q?
17:22:47 <danbri> (who joined? you are noisy)
17:22:50 <DKA> zakim, mute p36
17:22:50 <Zakim> sorry, DKA, I do not know which phone connection belongs to p36
17:22:57 <DKA> zakim, mute ??p36
17:22:57 <Zakim> ??P36 should now be muted
17:22:58 <bblfish> yes, I hear the noise too
17:23:21 <mischat> the google wave API has a collection of collaborative API calls, which work nicely with the People centric API calls from other APIs 
17:23:33 <darobin> ack me
17:23:34 <Zakim> darobin, you wanted to mention Powerbox
17:24:30 <mischat> darobin: do you have feedback on what we just heard, from an implementation point of view 
17:25:09 <Marcos> danbri: jetpack dumped that model
17:25:16 <Marcos> danbri: it was borked
17:25:21 <danbri> marcos, got an url? 
17:25:33 <Marcos> yep, one sec
17:25:48 <mischat> darobin: is going to mention powerbox, this is about plugin which allows for ways to install new APIs into a browser, which allows a website to access data from a different server. This is to do with the OAuth question earlier 
17:26:02 <Marcos> danbri: see http://vimeo.com/10011379 
17:26:18 <Marcos> he explains it in the vid
17:26:37 <mischat> the impact for this working group, it that powebox may give users an easy method to connect data from one website to another in a safe manner ?
17:28:12 <mischat> in the powerbox approach, the user selects which service they wish to integrate data from
17:28:39 <mischat> widgets developers wants functionality such as "give me contacts module"
17:28:46 <mischat> for a given api
17:29:43 <mischat> Powerbox is said to make it easier to the end user to select which APIs they wish to interact with 
17:30:02 <bblfish> q+
17:30:43 <DKA> q?
17:30:44 <mischat> q?
17:30:49 <DKA> ack bbl
17:31:51 <Marcos> q+
17:31:59 <DKA> q?
17:32:02 <mischat> bblfish is coming from the linked data, foaf, distributed world. Henry asks how do widgets fit into this model of a distributed social network
17:32:49 <mischat> widgets should be oblivious to the platform in which they are being embedded into 
17:33:25 <mischat> henry, asks what is meant by an API, he asks whether the API is a data-model focused API?
17:33:53 <mischat> they tend to be JS APIs which define the data returned by a given API call
17:34:12 <DKA> q?
17:34:21 <danbri> q+ to ask re schema extensibility 
17:34:32 <mischat> examples include getViewer() -> which gets info about the viewer of the current page, the data would include avatar, an ID, and a name 
17:34:42 <Zakim> -danbri
17:35:02 <mischat> other examples include getViewersFriends() -> which returns info regarding the viewer's friends
17:35:14 <Zakim> +??P18
17:35:22 <danbri> zakim, ??P18 is danbri
17:35:22 <Zakim> +danbri; got it
17:35:41 <danbri> q-
17:36:17 <Zakim> -darobin
17:36:31 <mischat> both shindig and wookie require a unique identifier, they ask for hashes, i.e. URI's which have no external meaning 
17:37:32 <DKA> ack marcos
17:37:38 <mischat> henry is talking about the pros of having a URI which is resolvable, which does have external meaning, so that everytime a widget gets given a URI, this would allow the widget to go out and get info about the URI used
17:38:35 <DKA> thanks darobin!
17:38:45 <mischat> Marcos, wanted to talk about opera unite which uses widgets to make a client act as a services, to allow for peer-2-peer communication on the web
17:38:51 <danbri> bye robin!
17:39:29 <mischat> allowing for servers to built on the client side, opera unite has been dealing with how they could do with using the http: protocol
17:39:49 <mischat> DKA, how is wookie using OAuth?
17:40:34 <mischat> Wookie's main use case for OAuth, is for when a widget wants to get data from an OAuth endpoint
17:41:43 <mischat> in opera unite, OAuth is used to leverage data found in external services too 
17:42:04 <mischat> OAuth allows for server => server communication 
17:42:13 <Marcos> CORS
17:42:16 <DKA> q?
17:43:03 <mischat> the W3C widget spec is going to consider OAuth as a mechanism to get data from a different container 
17:43:25 <danbri> (oh, i missed that? thought it was re Wookie)
17:43:33 <mischat> ah
17:43:43 <mischat> sorry, i thought he said in the W3C
17:43:59 <mischat> danbri asked if anyone is looking at OAuthwrap
17:44:27 <mischat> people are waiting to see what happens to the OAuth spec, waiting for things to settling down
17:44:58 <Zakim> -AnitaD
17:46:51 <mischat> sorry, i missed all of that 
17:47:11 <mischat> :)
17:47:22 <mischat> thank you
17:47:30 <Marcos> http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/WidgetSpecs
17:47:52 <mischat> marcos described the widget spec, details of which can be found ^^
17:48:18 <mischat> the widget spec will be blocked by html5, as there are dependencies there 
17:48:32 <mischat> nope danbri 
17:49:05 <mischat> the W3C widget community have been aware of the Wookie work for a long time 
17:49:18 <mischat> scott has been implementing everything before everyone else 
17:50:13 <mischat> there is a need for API, and for specifying how data will flow between widgets 
17:50:55 <mischat> widget's are supposed to be a simple container format, social interactions would be fantastic, but are not necessary
17:51:29 <mischat> W3C Media Annotations 
17:52:02 <Marcos> +q
17:52:10 <DKA> ack marcos
17:52:16 <mischat> danbri is talking about how we need an extensibility model before work can be unified 
17:53:22 <mischat> the widgets specification is based on XML, i.e. extensibility via namespaces, and the work is said to be extensible. The platform is designed to be very extensible 
17:54:17 <mischat> in wookie, you can APIs at runtime, i.e. functionality from the google wave gadget API can be added
17:54:22 <mischat> in as need be
17:55:20 <mischat> looking at widgets created, most people are looking for their widgets to go viral, how would the W3C spec supports this
17:55:44 <mischat> the wookie work shows that widgets are easy to deploy onto a server environment
17:56:32 <mischat> widgets are supposed to be easy to grab off of the web, so that they can be run elsewhere
17:56:53 <mischat> this supports archival, by allowing people to recreate widgets
17:56:54 <Zakim> -cperey
17:57:10 <danbri> (http://www.openintents.org/en/ is somehow relevant but i can't articulate details)
17:57:55 <danbri> q-
17:57:58 <bblfish> very cool.
17:58:15 <mischat> you ripp things off of a server and host it on whatever device you wish
17:58:38 <danbri> eg -> http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/contacts/
17:58:44 <mischat> A good next step would be too look at the various APIs available on the web, mapping it dap
17:58:50 <mischat> mapping it to dap
18:00:22 <mischat> thanks for interesting talks! 
18:00:23 <bblfish> thanks, learned a lot :-)
18:00:36 <mischat> and sorry for my rubbish scribing, lots of new things being talked about today
18:01:08 <Zakim> -??P36
18:01:12 <mischat> bye all 
18:01:14 <Zakim> -bblfish
18:01:14 <Zakim> -MacTed
18:01:15 <mischat> thank you
18:01:18 <Zakim> -danbri
18:01:22 <Zakim> -mischat
18:01:27 <danbri> thanks folks!
18:01:39 <Marcos> trackbot, make minutes
18:01:39 <trackbot> Sorry, Marcos, I don't understand 'trackbot, make minutes'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
18:01:43 <DKA> thanks!
18:01:51 <Marcos> hmm... nope :)
18:01:56 <DKA> trackbot, make minutes please
18:01:56 <trackbot> Sorry, DKA, I don't understand 'trackbot, make minutes please'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
18:02:20 <Zakim> - +0161238aaaa
18:02:28 <Zakim> -DKA
18:02:44 <DKA> rrsagent, make minutes
18:02:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/10-swxg-minutes.html DKA
18:02:44 <Zakim> -melvster
18:02:55 <mischat> mischat has joined #swxg
18:02:56 <DKA> rrsagent, make minutes public
18:02:56 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', DKA.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:03:07 <Zakim> -Marcos
18:03:08 <Zakim> INC_SWXG()11:00AM has ended
18:03:09 <Zakim> Attendees were DKA, Marcos, +0161238aaaa, mischat, darobin, MacTed, cperey, danbri, bblfish, AnitaD, melvster
18:03:28 <melvster> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:03:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/10-swxg-minutes.html melvster
18:04:23 <melvster> hmm
18:04:31 <melvster> i think i could have just asked trackbot to end meeting
18:04:37 <DKA> trackbot, end meeting
18:04:37 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
18:04:37 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
18:04:38 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:04:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/10-swxg-minutes.html trackbot
18:04:39 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
18:04:39 <RRSAgent> I see no action items