IRC log of swxg on 2010-03-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:02:25 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #swxg
16:02:25 [RRSAgent]
logging to
16:02:27 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
16:02:27 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #swxg
16:02:29 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 7994
16:02:29 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see INC_SWXG()11:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
16:02:30 [trackbot]
Meeting: Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference
16:02:30 [trackbot]
Date: 10 March 2010
16:02:46 [Zakim]
INC_SWXG()11:00AM has now started
16:02:53 [Zakim]
16:03:05 [MacTed]
Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:03:05 [Zakim]
+MacTed; got it
16:03:08 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
16:03:08 [Zakim]
sorry, MacTed, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
16:04:18 [MacTed]
bah. missed the hour delay note.
16:04:19 [hajons]
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16:04:25 [Zakim]
16:04:26 [Zakim]
INC_SWXG()11:00AM has ended
16:04:26 [Zakim]
Attendees were MacTed
16:05:01 [Zakim]
INC_SWXG()11:00AM has now started
16:05:08 [Zakim]
16:05:58 [cperey]
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16:06:13 [MacTed]
trackbot, end meeting
16:06:13 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
16:06:13 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been cperey
16:06:14 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:06:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
16:06:15 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
16:06:15 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items
16:59:13 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #swxg
16:59:13 [RRSAgent]
logging to
16:59:15 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
16:59:17 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 7994
16:59:17 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see INC_SWXG()11:00AM scheduled to start 59 minutes ago
16:59:18 [trackbot]
Meeting: Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference
16:59:18 [trackbot]
Date: 10 March 2010
17:00:14 [DKA]
zakim, who's here?
17:00:14 [Zakim]
I notice INC_SWXG()11:00AM has restarted
17:00:16 [Zakim]
On the phone I see DKA
17:00:26 [mischat_]
mischat_ has joined #swxg
17:01:44 [Zakim]
17:02:04 [Zakim]
17:02:06 [mischat]
zakim, mute me +??P12
17:02:06 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'mute me +??P12', mischat
17:02:13 [mischat]
zakim +??P12 is me
17:02:34 [mischat]
zakim ?P12 is me
17:02:44 [Zakim]
+ +0161238aaaa
17:02:54 [mischat]
zakim ??P12 is me
17:03:06 [Marcos]
Marcos has joined #swxg
17:03:10 [Zakim]
17:03:16 [mischat]
zakim, ??P12 is me
17:03:16 [Zakim]
+mischat; got it
17:03:24 [mischat]
zakim, mute me
17:03:24 [Zakim]
mischat should now be muted
17:03:48 [darobin]
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17:04:04 [darobin]
Zakim, [IPCaller] is me
17:04:04 [Zakim]
+darobin; got it
17:04:33 [Marcos]
mischat === harry ?
17:04:34 [Zakim]
17:04:41 [MacTed]
Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
17:04:41 [Zakim]
+MacTed; got it
17:04:43 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
17:04:43 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
17:04:47 [mischat]
ok DKA
17:05:01 [mischat]
i can scribe
17:05:03 [Zakim]
17:05:07 [DKA]
Scribe: mischat
17:05:11 [Zakim]
17:05:12 [DKA]
ScribeNick: mischat
17:05:13 [danbri]
zakim, ??P25 is danbri
17:05:13 [Zakim]
+danbri; got it
17:05:18 [cperey]
17:06:07 [DKA]
PROPOSED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 3 March 2010 as a true record ( )
17:06:07 [mischat]
17:06:18 [cperey]
17:06:21 [DKA]
17:06:48 [mischat]
this call is limited to an hour
17:07:14 [DKA]
PROPOSED: to meet again Wed. March 17th.
17:07:23 [mischat]
the focus of today's meeting will be on the widgets talk
17:07:26 [danbri]
some historical notes in ... not sure how timely they still are
17:07:43 [mischat]
DKA give regrets for next weeks call
17:08:06 [mischat]
and administrative topics, worth mentioning, please do so now
17:08:11 [mischat]
17:08:16 [danbri]
17:08:51 [danbri]
DKA: I'm a widgetarian and proud of it
17:09:08 [mischat]
Widgets is one of those words which has lots of connotations dependant on context
17:09:40 [Zakim]
17:09:45 [mischat]
in the W3C context DKA, Marcos, and darobin have been working on the W3C Widgets
17:10:11 [Marcos]
A widget is defined by the [Widgets-Landscape] as "an end-user's conceptualization of an interactive single purpose application for displaying and/or updating local data or data on the Web, packaged in a way to allow a single download and installation on a user's machine, mobile phone, or Internet-enabled device".
17:10:15 [mischat]
widgets have taken on a new another meaning in social space, that is of functionality in a social container
17:10:18 [danbri]
(in a previous life, I worked with Robin and Libby Miller on widgets for TV stuff)
17:10:49 [mischat]
3 invited speakers Marcos, darobin, and ??? from apache
17:10:51 [Zakim]
17:10:57 [darobin]
17:11:00 [mischat]
ah scott
17:11:04 [mischat]
thanks darobin
17:11:21 [mischat]
Scott to start taking about the Apache project and what they are doing with Widgets
17:11:24 [bblfish]
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17:11:47 [Anita]
Anita has joined #swxg
17:11:52 [mischat]
Scott, uses widgets, gadgets, and apps interchangeably
17:11:56 [mischat]
Wookie ?
17:11:59 [mischat]
url someone please
17:12:10 [darobin]
yes Wookie
17:12:25 [mischat]
Apache Incubator project called Wookie, implements the W3C Widget API
17:12:34 [darobin]
17:12:40 [mischat]
thanks darobin
17:12:58 [Zakim]
17:12:59 [mischat]
Wookie team wanted to support collaborative, multi-user widgets
17:13:13 [melvster]
zakim, ??P35 is me
17:13:13 [Zakim]
+melvster; got it
17:13:26 [mischat]
the W3C API is neutral to the number of users who are said to work with a given widget
17:14:01 [mischat]
so Wookie implemented the Google Wave API to add collaborative functionality to the W3C Widget API
17:14:24 [mischat]
there are integration points between the Wookie widgets and shindig widgets
17:14:26 [darobin]
17:14:36 [mischat]
where Shindig apps are Open Social Widgets
17:14:42 [darobin]
[ShinDig is an OpenSocial implementation]
17:14:49 [mischat]
thanks again
17:15:16 [mischat]
danbri is asking about Open Social, and how they use OAuth and authentication APIs
17:16:01 [darobin]
on authentication methods, see Powerbox
17:16:03 [mischat]
Wookie does the same thing as Open Social, they exchange tokens to create trust between widgets and APIs
17:16:45 [danbri]
17:17:22 [mischat]
both Shindig and Wookie server widgets as iframe in webpages, which ends up going through trusted proxys
17:17:34 [danbri]
q+ to ask about top 3 things w3c-and-friends might do to reduce pain for developers learning these techs
17:17:45 [darobin]
17:17:49 [mischat]
DKA, is breaking up
17:17:56 [darobin]
q+ to mention Powerbox
17:18:22 [mischat]
DKA, what type of feedback have you had from the community (outside of the standards body) re: W3C widgets
17:18:47 [mischat]
most people downloading wookie, seem to be people outside the standards body, which elgg
17:18:48 [melvster]
17:19:02 [Yuk]
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17:19:08 [mischat]
which include elgg, an open decentralised social network
17:19:26 [mischat]
most people interested in collaboration tend to use shindig
17:19:27 [DKA]
ack danbri
17:19:27 [Zakim]
danbri, you wanted to ask about top 3 things w3c-and-friends might do to reduce pain for developers learning these techs
17:19:28 [danbri]
shindig uses terrifying amounts of js
17:20:26 [mischat]
danbri, from a developer point of view how could you reduce the barrier to entry by uniting the two different APIs (shindig & wookie)
17:20:34 [danbri]
re packaging, i quite like Mozilla Jetpack's non-packaging approach (raw .js urls)
17:20:57 [darobin]
danbri, that doesn't make it easy to carry things across systems though
17:21:28 [mischat]
the two specs seem to have clearer APIs now, which should make it easier for developers to create widgets
17:21:43 [darobin]
17:21:43 [bblfish]
are those APIs or dataformats ( re: "people api, album api, …")
17:22:25 [mischat]
Wookie has implemented most of the W3C API already
17:22:36 [Zakim]
17:22:41 [DKA]
17:22:47 [danbri]
(who joined? you are noisy)
17:22:50 [DKA]
zakim, mute p36
17:22:50 [Zakim]
sorry, DKA, I do not know which phone connection belongs to p36
17:22:57 [DKA]
zakim, mute ??p36
17:22:57 [Zakim]
??P36 should now be muted
17:22:58 [bblfish]
yes, I hear the noise too
17:23:21 [mischat]
the google wave API has a collection of collaborative API calls, which work nicely with the People centric API calls from other APIs
17:23:33 [darobin]
ack me
17:23:34 [Zakim]
darobin, you wanted to mention Powerbox
17:24:30 [mischat]
darobin: do you have feedback on what we just heard, from an implementation point of view
17:25:09 [Marcos]
danbri: jetpack dumped that model
17:25:16 [Marcos]
danbri: it was borked
17:25:21 [danbri]
marcos, got an url?
17:25:33 [Marcos]
yep, one sec
17:25:48 [mischat]
darobin: is going to mention powerbox, this is about plugin which allows for ways to install new APIs into a browser, which allows a website to access data from a different server. This is to do with the OAuth question earlier
17:26:02 [Marcos]
danbri: see
17:26:18 [Marcos]
he explains it in the vid
17:26:37 [mischat]
the impact for this working group, it that powebox may give users an easy method to connect data from one website to another in a safe manner ?
17:28:12 [mischat]
in the powerbox approach, the user selects which service they wish to integrate data from
17:28:39 [mischat]
widgets developers wants functionality such as "give me contacts module"
17:28:46 [mischat]
for a given api
17:29:43 [mischat]
Powerbox is said to make it easier to the end user to select which APIs they wish to interact with
17:30:02 [bblfish]
17:30:43 [DKA]
17:30:44 [mischat]
17:30:49 [DKA]
ack bbl
17:31:51 [Marcos]
17:31:59 [DKA]
17:32:02 [mischat]
bblfish is coming from the linked data, foaf, distributed world. Henry asks how do widgets fit into this model of a distributed social network
17:32:49 [mischat]
widgets should be oblivious to the platform in which they are being embedded into
17:33:25 [mischat]
henry, asks what is meant by an API, he asks whether the API is a data-model focused API?
17:33:53 [mischat]
they tend to be JS APIs which define the data returned by a given API call
17:34:12 [DKA]
17:34:21 [danbri]
q+ to ask re schema extensibility
17:34:32 [mischat]
examples include getViewer() -> which gets info about the viewer of the current page, the data would include avatar, an ID, and a name
17:34:42 [Zakim]
17:35:02 [mischat]
other examples include getViewersFriends() -> which returns info regarding the viewer's friends
17:35:14 [Zakim]
17:35:22 [danbri]
zakim, ??P18 is danbri
17:35:22 [Zakim]
+danbri; got it
17:35:41 [danbri]
17:36:17 [Zakim]
17:36:31 [mischat]
both shindig and wookie require a unique identifier, they ask for hashes, i.e. URI's which have no external meaning
17:37:32 [DKA]
ack marcos
17:37:38 [mischat]
henry is talking about the pros of having a URI which is resolvable, which does have external meaning, so that everytime a widget gets given a URI, this would allow the widget to go out and get info about the URI used
17:38:35 [DKA]
thanks darobin!
17:38:45 [mischat]
Marcos, wanted to talk about opera unite which uses widgets to make a client act as a services, to allow for peer-2-peer communication on the web
17:38:51 [danbri]
bye robin!
17:39:29 [mischat]
allowing for servers to built on the client side, opera unite has been dealing with how they could do with using the http: protocol
17:39:49 [mischat]
DKA, how is wookie using OAuth?
17:40:34 [mischat]
Wookie's main use case for OAuth, is for when a widget wants to get data from an OAuth endpoint
17:41:43 [mischat]
in opera unite, OAuth is used to leverage data found in external services too
17:42:04 [mischat]
OAuth allows for server => server communication
17:42:13 [Marcos]
17:42:16 [DKA]
17:43:03 [mischat]
the W3C widget spec is going to consider OAuth as a mechanism to get data from a different container
17:43:25 [danbri]
(oh, i missed that? thought it was re Wookie)
17:43:33 [mischat]
17:43:43 [mischat]
sorry, i thought he said in the W3C
17:43:59 [mischat]
danbri asked if anyone is looking at OAuthwrap
17:44:27 [mischat]
people are waiting to see what happens to the OAuth spec, waiting for things to settling down
17:44:58 [Zakim]
17:46:51 [mischat]
sorry, i missed all of that
17:47:11 [mischat]
17:47:22 [mischat]
thank you
17:47:30 [Marcos]
17:47:52 [mischat]
marcos described the widget spec, details of which can be found ^^
17:48:18 [mischat]
the widget spec will be blocked by html5, as there are dependencies there
17:48:32 [mischat]
nope danbri
17:49:05 [mischat]
the W3C widget community have been aware of the Wookie work for a long time
17:49:18 [mischat]
scott has been implementing everything before everyone else
17:50:13 [mischat]
there is a need for API, and for specifying how data will flow between widgets
17:50:55 [mischat]
widget's are supposed to be a simple container format, social interactions would be fantastic, but are not necessary
17:51:29 [mischat]
W3C Media Annotations
17:52:02 [Marcos]
17:52:10 [DKA]
ack marcos
17:52:16 [mischat]
danbri is talking about how we need an extensibility model before work can be unified
17:53:22 [mischat]
the widgets specification is based on XML, i.e. extensibility via namespaces, and the work is said to be extensible. The platform is designed to be very extensible
17:54:17 [mischat]
in wookie, you can APIs at runtime, i.e. functionality from the google wave gadget API can be added
17:54:22 [mischat]
in as need be
17:55:20 [mischat]
looking at widgets created, most people are looking for their widgets to go viral, how would the W3C spec supports this
17:55:44 [mischat]
the wookie work shows that widgets are easy to deploy onto a server environment
17:56:32 [mischat]
widgets are supposed to be easy to grab off of the web, so that they can be run elsewhere
17:56:53 [mischat]
this supports archival, by allowing people to recreate widgets
17:56:54 [Zakim]
17:57:10 [danbri]
( is somehow relevant but i can't articulate details)
17:57:55 [danbri]
17:57:58 [bblfish]
very cool.
17:58:15 [mischat]
you ripp things off of a server and host it on whatever device you wish
17:58:38 [danbri]
eg ->
17:58:44 [mischat]
A good next step would be too look at the various APIs available on the web, mapping it dap
17:58:50 [mischat]
mapping it to dap
18:00:22 [mischat]
thanks for interesting talks!
18:00:23 [bblfish]
thanks, learned a lot :-)
18:00:36 [mischat]
and sorry for my rubbish scribing, lots of new things being talked about today
18:01:08 [Zakim]
18:01:12 [mischat]
bye all
18:01:14 [Zakim]
18:01:14 [Zakim]
18:01:15 [mischat]
thank you
18:01:18 [Zakim]
18:01:22 [Zakim]
18:01:27 [danbri]
thanks folks!
18:01:39 [Marcos]
trackbot, make minutes
18:01:39 [trackbot]
Sorry, Marcos, I don't understand 'trackbot, make minutes'. Please refer to for help
18:01:43 [DKA]
18:01:51 [Marcos]
hmm... nope :)
18:01:56 [DKA]
trackbot, make minutes please
18:01:56 [trackbot]
Sorry, DKA, I don't understand 'trackbot, make minutes please'. Please refer to for help
18:02:20 [Zakim]
- +0161238aaaa
18:02:28 [Zakim]
18:02:44 [DKA]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:02:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate DKA
18:02:44 [Zakim]
18:02:55 [mischat]
mischat has joined #swxg
18:02:56 [DKA]
rrsagent, make minutes public
18:02:56 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', DKA. Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:03:07 [Zakim]
18:03:08 [Zakim]
INC_SWXG()11:00AM has ended
18:03:09 [Zakim]
Attendees were DKA, Marcos, +0161238aaaa, mischat, darobin, MacTed, cperey, danbri, bblfish, AnitaD, melvster
18:03:28 [melvster]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:03:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate melvster
18:04:23 [melvster]
18:04:31 [melvster]
i think i could have just asked trackbot to end meeting
18:04:37 [DKA]
trackbot, end meeting
18:04:37 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
18:04:37 [Zakim]
sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
18:04:38 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:04:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
18:04:39 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
18:04:39 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items