15:59:45 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
15:59:45 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/09-rif-irc
15:59:54 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
15:59:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/09-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:00:08 <ChrisW> zakim, this is rif
16:00:08 <Zakim> ChrisW, I see SW_RIF()11:00AM in the schedule but not yet started.  Perhaps you mean "this will be rif".
16:00:14 <ChrisW> zakim, bite me
16:00:14 <Zakim> I don't understand 'bite me', ChrisW
16:00:22 <ChrisW> zakim, this will be rif
16:00:22 <Zakim> ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start now
16:00:32 <ChrisW> Chair: Chris Welty
16:00:33 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
16:00:40 <Zakim> +??P12
16:00:47 <AdrianP> Zakim, ??P12 is me
16:00:47 <Zakim> +AdrianP; got it
16:00:50 <ChrisW> Meeting: RIF Telecon 9-Mar-2010
16:01:06 <Zakim> +Hassan_Ait-Kaci
16:01:07 <ChrisW> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Mar/0021.html
16:01:26 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
16:01:35 <Zakim> +[IBM]
16:01:41 <ChrisW> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
16:01:41 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
16:02:03 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make logs public
16:02:11 <LeoraMorgenstern> LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
16:02:25 <Zakim> +Harold
16:02:29 <ChrisW> Regrets: StellaMitchell LeoraMorgenstern
16:03:03 <ChrisW> Scribe: AdrianPaschke
16:03:08 <ChrisW> scribenick: AdrianP
16:04:12 <josb> josb has joined #rif
16:04:16 <Zakim> +Sandro
16:05:27 <AdrianP> ChrisW: no minutes from last week
16:05:31 <ChrisW> *Summer time*: North America will move to summer time on March 14, Europe 
16:05:32 <ChrisW> on March 28
16:05:32 <ChrisW>                                => Telecons March 16 and 23 will be one 
16:05:32 <ChrisW> hour early in Europe!
16:05:41 <Zakim> + +49.08.aaaa
16:05:50 <Gary_Hallmark> Gary_Hallmark has joined #rif
16:05:53 <csma> csma has joined #rif
16:06:05 <AdrianP> ChrisW: next weeks telecon for European it will be an hour earlier
16:06:23 <ChrisW> TOPIC: Liason
16:07:08 <Harold>  Axel?
16:07:13 <sandro> AxelPolleres, can you call in today?
16:07:32 <AdrianP> Sandro: no news from SPARQL
16:07:34 <ChrisW> TOPIC: Action review
16:08:10 <ChrisW> action-986 closed
16:08:10 <trackbot> ACTION-986 Bring up http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Constant_Equivalence_2 with Jos closed
16:08:23 <LeoraMorgenstern> I'll send my minutes last week. (just got your email, Chris.)
16:08:26 <AdrianP> action-985 closed
16:08:26 <trackbot> ACTION-985 Get Jos to add changelog for SWC closed
16:08:44 <Zakim> +??P30
16:08:55 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:08:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see AdrianP, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, ChrisW, Harold, Sandro, +49.08.aaaa, ??P30
16:09:40 <ChrisW> zakim, aaaa is csma
16:09:40 <Zakim> +csma; got it
16:09:58 <Zakim> +??P32
16:10:06 <Zakim> +Gary
16:10:09 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
16:11:02 <AdrianP> action-981 closed
16:11:02 <trackbot> ACTION-981 Send response to Ian Horrocks closed
16:11:17 <josb> +q
16:11:51 <ChrisW> action josb: fix and respond to editorial changes in swc
16:11:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-987 - Fix and respond to editorial changes in swc [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2010-03-16].
16:12:12 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
16:12:48 <LeoraMorgenstern> s/last week/end of the week/
16:13:12 <Zakim> +MichaelKifer
16:14:01 <AdrianP> action-984 closed
16:14:01 <trackbot> ACTION-984 Update change log for BLD, coordinating with Harold. closed
16:14:04 <csma>  > The definition of the 'Const' element in [2] refers to the 'xml:lang'
16:14:06 <csma>  > attribute.
16:14:08 <csma>  > Is this attribute for the reader's information only, or does it affect the
16:14:09 <csma>  > back transformation from XML syntax to presentation syntax?
16:14:11 <csma>  > If so, which of the following XML fragments are valid and what are their
16:14:12 <csma>  > back transformations?
16:14:14 <csma>  > <Const type="&rdf;PlainLiteral" xml:lang="en">abc</Const>
16:14:15 <csma>  > <Const type="&rdf;PlainLiteral" xml:lang="en">abc@</Const>
16:14:17 <csma>  > <Const type="&rdf;PlainLiteral" xml:lang="en">abc@de</Const>
16:15:13 <ChrisW> "abc"@en^^rdf:plainLiteral
16:15:26 <ChrisW> "abc@"@en^^rdf:plainLiteral
16:15:33 <ChrisW> "abc@de"@en^^rdf:plainLiteral
16:16:22 <josb> q+
16:16:44 <josb> "abc@de@en"^^rdf:plainLiteral
16:16:58 <AdrianP> Jos: sure that this is the right presentation syntax?
16:17:37 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds
16:17:53 <DaveReynolds> Sorry, got cut off. DTB does define @ shortcut
16:18:18 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:18:50 <Harold> Currently: Const          ::= '"' UNICODESTRING '"^^' SYMSPACE | CONSTSHORT
16:19:02 <AdrianP> Christian: is it ambigious?
16:19:09 <josb> "abc@de"@en
16:20:01 <DaveReynolds> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/DTB#Shortcuts_for_Constants_in_RIF.27s_Presentation_Syntax
16:20:09 <AdrianP> Dave: in DTB 2.2.2 there is shortcut syntax
16:20:22 <josb> as defined by DTB, "abc@de"@en is shortcut for "abc@de@en"^^rdf:plainLiteral
16:20:34 <Harold> CONSTSHORT    ::= ... | '"' UNICODESTRING '"' '@' langtag
16:22:03 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Response_to_AR4
16:22:16 <AdrianP> Harold: action-938 is related to the current discussion
16:23:37 <AdrianP> Harold: have a comment near by the grammar and syntax
16:25:08 <AdrianP> ChrisW: let's just add a comment about it
16:25:56 <AdrianP> action Harold: add note to BLD, Core about plain literals
16:25:56 <trackbot> Created ACTION-988 - Add note to BLD, Core about plain literals [on Harold Boley - due 2010-03-16].
16:28:29 <ChrisW> TOPIC: Public COmments
16:29:35 <ChrisW> TOPIC: At risk features
16:31:00 <csma> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Features_At_Risk
16:32:39 <AdrianP> Sandro: we where concerned if it can be implemented 
16:32:46 <AdrianP> Sandro: - think we can do it
16:32:55 <ChrisW> *PROPOSED:* keep the 1-to-1 lists (feature at risk) 
16:33:01 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: keep the 1-to-1 lists (feature at risk) 
16:33:39 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: keep the 1-to-1 lists, removing it from at-risk features for PR
16:33:48 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: keep the 1-to-1 lists in SWC, removing it from at-risk features for PR
16:33:58 <ChrisW> +1
16:33:59 <DaveReynolds> +1
16:34:31 <josb> +1
16:34:35 <Harold> +1
16:34:41 <MichaelKifer> +1
16:34:42 <AdrianP> +1
16:34:42 <sandro> +1
16:34:50 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: keep the 1-to-1 lists in SWC, removing it from at-risk features for PR
16:35:46 <AdrianP> ChrisW: next equality in the head
16:35:49 <AdrianP> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/BLD#Formulas
16:36:30 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: keep equality in rule conclusions for BLD, removing it from at-risk features for PR
16:36:32 <Harold> +1
16:36:35 <ChrisW> +1
16:36:37 <DaveReynolds> 0
16:36:40 <josb> +1
16:36:51 <AdrianP> +1
16:37:43 <sandro> +0 i like it but slightly worried about implementation burden
16:38:25 <AdrianP> Christian: Did the implementers implement it?
16:38:41 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: keep equality in rule conclusions for BLD, removing it from at-risk features for PR
16:38:45 <AdrianP> ChrisW: at least in the reports they did not say "they don't"
16:39:04 <csma> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/BLD#Conformance_Clauses
16:39:20 <josb> q+
16:40:00 <josb> q-
16:40:58 <AdrianP> Christian: Do not know the scope of the feature? If it is only about strictness no problem to remove it
16:41:04 <josb> q+
16:41:53 <AdrianP> Jos: strictness is a limitation the definition of conformance for consumer and producer. They only need to support the datatypes in DTB
16:45:22 <AdrianP> Harold: could use MAY
16:45:37 <Harold> s/MAY/can/
16:46:16 <Harold> Michael?
16:48:30 <Harold> With 'can' we could stress that both modes are equally conformant.
16:50:49 <Zakim> -Harold
16:51:27 <Zakim> +Harold
16:52:33 <Harold> Do we have any comment about that "At Risk" from implementers?
16:52:34 <josb> q+
16:53:17 <AdrianP> Sandro: may sentence needs further clarification
16:53:17 <csma> q+
16:54:00 <csma> ack jos
16:57:42 <josb> HTML existed before XML
16:57:46 <AdrianP> csma: add a comment about extensions for conformant producers
16:59:13 <josb> I don't say it forbids extensions
16:59:33 <josb> indeed, you are no longer conformant if you support extensions
17:00:44 <AdrianP> Sandro: would like to a "in strict mode" to make clear that extension are not forbidden in general
17:01:59 <Gary> why not drop the requirement and change "A conformant RIF-BLD consumer must reject all inputs that do not match the syntax of BLD." to "A conformant RIF-BLD consumer must accept all inputs that match the syntax of BLD.
17:03:07 <csma> +1
17:06:41 <josb> I would abstain as well
17:08:40 <MichaelKifer> I'd abstain, although I think it is not a good restriction
17:08:40 <josb> (prefer non-strictness, as I was also arguing in Galway)
17:09:21 <josb> I would
17:10:34 <Harold> What about: -- having modes for strict BLD and for BLD running with extensions.
17:14:23 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: keep the DL-safeness restriction (feature at risk)
17:15:32 <josb> +1
17:15:43 <DaveReynolds> +1
17:15:53 <Harold> +1
17:16:06 <AdrianP> +1
17:16:11 <josb> q+
17:16:19 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: keep dl-stafeness restriction in SWC, removing it from at-risk features for PR
17:16:36 <ChrisW> +1
17:16:46 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: keep dl-stafeness restriction in SWC, removing it from at-risk features for PR
17:16:54 <AdrianP> ChrisW: removing at risk features should be recorded in the change lock
17:19:11 <AdrianP> ChrisW: Indexing from zero
17:20:45 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: keep keep indexing lists from zero in DTB, removing it from at-risk features for PR
17:20:54 <ChrisW> +1
17:20:59 <josb> +1
17:21:04 <AdrianP> +1
17:21:08 <DaveReynolds> +0 (number from 0 is right but having both conventions in one spec is confusing)
17:21:10 <Harold> +1
17:21:44 <Gary> +1
17:21:48 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: keep keep indexing lists from zero in DTB, removing it from at-risk features for PR
17:22:41 <AdrianP> ChrisW: return to the strictness at risk feature
17:29:29 <AdrianP> ChrisW: extension request
17:29:53 <AdrianP> ChrisW: we need to be at least the implementations finished
17:30:08 <AdrianP> ChrisW: need to put more pressure on the implementers
17:30:29 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: extend 5 minutes
17:30:35 <csma> +1
17:31:23 <AdrianP> ChrisW: DTB needs implementation
17:31:38 <AdrianP> ChrisW: implementer at CTTIT left
17:32:17 <AdrianP> ChrisW: need to activate the community
17:32:53 <Gary> I have datetime, lists, numerics, and string builtin tests working
17:33:08 <AdrianP> ChrisW: list for each implementation which datatypes and built-ins are supported by them
17:33:59 <ChrisW> action: mkifer contact mdean for list of datatypes
17:33:59 <trackbot> Created ACTION-989 - Contact mdean for list of datatypes [on Michael Kifer - due 2010-03-16].
17:34:02 <Harold> Sandro and Chris, you mentioned a few weeks ago that you are in contact with Jos de Roo about his Euler Eye implementation of DTB?
17:34:18 <AdrianP> action Michael: contact Mike Dean and ask which DTB type are supported
17:34:18 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Michael
17:34:18 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. msintek, mkifer, merdmann)
17:34:38 <sandro> PROPOSED: We'll ask for a 6 month extension, contingent on WG requesting PR by the end March.   Should proceed to Rec in May; WG intends to work on tutorial, test cases, and several Notes during these 6 months. 
17:34:40 <AdrianP> action MichaelKifer: contact Mike Dean and ask which DTB type are supported
17:34:40 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - MichaelKifer
17:34:56 <AdrianP> action kifer: contact Mike Dean and ask which DTB type are supported
17:34:56 <trackbot> Created ACTION-990 - Contact Mike Dean and ask which DTB type are supported [on Michael Kifer - due 2010-03-16].
17:35:23 <Harold> +1
17:35:32 <ChrisW> +1 to extension
17:35:32 <AdrianP> +1
17:35:35 <sandro> RESOLVED: We'll ask for a 6 month extension, contingent on WG requesting PR by the end March.   Should proceed to Rec in May; WG intends to work on tutorial, test cases, and several Notes during these 6 months. 
17:35:35 <Gary> +1
17:35:36 <MichaelKifer> +1
17:36:23 <ChrisW> action: sandro to contact chime about DTB support
17:36:23 <trackbot> Created ACTION-991 - Contact chime about DTB support [on Sandro Hawke - due 2010-03-16].
17:36:37 <ChrisW> action: csma to contact changhai about DTB support
17:36:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-992 - Contact changhai about DTB support [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2010-03-16].
17:37:51 <ChrisW> action: csma to contact jderoo about DTB support or get from implementation report
17:37:51 <trackbot> Created ACTION-993 - Contact jderoo about DTB support or get from implementation report [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2010-03-16].
17:40:19 <ChrisW> adjourned
17:40:22 <Zakim> -Harold
17:40:24 <Zakim> -Gary
17:40:24 <Zakim> -Hassan_Ait-Kaci
17:40:25 <ChrisW> zakim, list attendees
17:40:26 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been AdrianP, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, ChrisW, Harold, Sandro, +49.08.aaaa, josb, csma, Gary, DaveReynolds, MichaelKifer
17:40:27 <josb> bye
17:40:27 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds
17:40:33 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
17:40:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/09-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
17:40:41 <Zakim> -MichaelKifer
17:40:45 <Zakim> -josb
17:41:41 <Zakim> -AdrianP
17:42:09 <Zakim> -ChrisW
17:42:11 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:42:12 <Zakim> -csma
17:42:12 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
17:42:13 <Zakim> Attendees were AdrianP, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, ChrisW, Harold, Sandro, +49.08.aaaa, josb, csma, Gary, DaveReynolds, MichaelKifer
17:45:44 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has left #rif