IRC log of rif on 2010-03-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:59:45 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rif
15:59:45 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/09-rif-irc
15:59:54 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:59:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/09-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:00:08 [ChrisW]
zakim, this is rif
16:00:08 [Zakim]
ChrisW, I see SW_RIF()11:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be rif".
16:00:14 [ChrisW]
zakim, bite me
16:00:14 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'bite me', ChrisW
16:00:22 [ChrisW]
zakim, this will be rif
16:00:22 [Zakim]
ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start now
16:00:32 [ChrisW]
Chair: Chris Welty
16:00:33 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
16:00:40 [Zakim]
+??P12
16:00:47 [AdrianP]
Zakim, ??P12 is me
16:00:47 [Zakim]
+AdrianP; got it
16:00:50 [ChrisW]
Meeting: RIF Telecon 9-Mar-2010
16:01:06 [Zakim]
+Hassan_Ait-Kaci
16:01:07 [ChrisW]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Mar/0021.html
16:01:26 [Harold]
Harold has joined #rif
16:01:35 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
16:01:41 [ChrisW]
zakim, ibm is temporarily me
16:01:41 [Zakim]
+ChrisW; got it
16:02:03 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make logs public
16:02:11 [LeoraMorgenstern]
LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
16:02:25 [Zakim]
+Harold
16:02:29 [ChrisW]
Regrets: StellaMitchell LeoraMorgenstern
16:03:03 [ChrisW]
Scribe: AdrianPaschke
16:03:08 [ChrisW]
scribenick: AdrianP
16:04:12 [josb]
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16:04:16 [Zakim]
+Sandro
16:05:27 [AdrianP]
ChrisW: no minutes from last week
16:05:31 [ChrisW]
*Summer time*: North America will move to summer time on March 14, Europe
16:05:32 [ChrisW]
on March 28
16:05:32 [ChrisW]
=> Telecons March 16 and 23 will be one
16:05:32 [ChrisW]
hour early in Europe!
16:05:41 [Zakim]
+ +49.08.aaaa
16:05:50 [Gary_Hallmark]
Gary_Hallmark has joined #rif
16:05:53 [csma]
csma has joined #rif
16:06:05 [AdrianP]
ChrisW: next weeks telecon for European it will be an hour earlier
16:06:23 [ChrisW]
TOPIC: Liason
16:07:08 [Harold]
Axel?
16:07:13 [sandro]
AxelPolleres, can you call in today?
16:07:32 [AdrianP]
Sandro: no news from SPARQL
16:07:34 [ChrisW]
TOPIC: Action review
16:08:10 [ChrisW]
action-986 closed
16:08:10 [trackbot]
ACTION-986 Bring up http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Constant_Equivalence_2 with Jos closed
16:08:23 [LeoraMorgenstern]
I'll send my minutes last week. (just got your email, Chris.)
16:08:26 [AdrianP]
action-985 closed
16:08:26 [trackbot]
ACTION-985 Get Jos to add changelog for SWC closed
16:08:44 [Zakim]
+??P30
16:08:55 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:08:55 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AdrianP, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, ChrisW, Harold, Sandro, +49.08.aaaa, ??P30
16:09:40 [ChrisW]
zakim, aaaa is csma
16:09:40 [Zakim]
+csma; got it
16:09:58 [Zakim]
+??P32
16:10:06 [Zakim]
+Gary
16:10:09 [DaveReynolds]
DaveReynolds has joined #rif
16:11:02 [AdrianP]
action-981 closed
16:11:02 [trackbot]
ACTION-981 Send response to Ian Horrocks closed
16:11:17 [josb]
+q
16:11:51 [ChrisW]
action josb: fix and respond to editorial changes in swc
16:11:52 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-987 - Fix and respond to editorial changes in swc [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2010-03-16].
16:12:12 [MichaelKifer]
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16:12:48 [LeoraMorgenstern]
s/last week/end of the week/
16:13:12 [Zakim]
+MichaelKifer
16:14:01 [AdrianP]
action-984 closed
16:14:01 [trackbot]
ACTION-984 Update change log for BLD, coordinating with Harold. closed
16:14:04 [csma]
> The definition of the 'Const' element in [2] refers to the 'xml:lang'
16:14:06 [csma]
> attribute.
16:14:08 [csma]
> Is this attribute for the reader's information only, or does it affect the
16:14:09 [csma]
> back transformation from XML syntax to presentation syntax?
16:14:11 [csma]
> If so, which of the following XML fragments are valid and what are their
16:14:12 [csma]
> back transformations?
16:14:14 [csma]
> <Const type="&rdf;PlainLiteral" xml:lang="en">abc</Const>
16:14:15 [csma]
> <Const type="&rdf;PlainLiteral" xml:lang="en">abc@</Const>
16:14:17 [csma]
> <Const type="&rdf;PlainLiteral" xml:lang="en">abc@de</Const>
16:15:13 [ChrisW]
"abc"@en^^rdf:plainLiteral
16:15:26 [ChrisW]
"abc@"@en^^rdf:plainLiteral
16:15:33 [ChrisW]
"abc@de"@en^^rdf:plainLiteral
16:16:22 [josb]
q+
16:16:44 [josb]
"abc@de@en"^^rdf:plainLiteral
16:16:58 [AdrianP]
Jos: sure that this is the right presentation syntax?
16:17:37 [Zakim]
-DaveReynolds
16:17:53 [DaveReynolds]
Sorry, got cut off. DTB does define @ shortcut
16:18:18 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
16:18:50 [Harold]
Currently: Const ::= '"' UNICODESTRING '"^^' SYMSPACE | CONSTSHORT
16:19:02 [AdrianP]
Christian: is it ambigious?
16:19:09 [josb]
"abc@de"@en
16:20:01 [DaveReynolds]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/DTB#Shortcuts_for_Constants_in_RIF.27s_Presentation_Syntax
16:20:09 [AdrianP]
Dave: in DTB 2.2.2 there is shortcut syntax
16:20:22 [josb]
as defined by DTB, "abc@de"@en is shortcut for "abc@de@en"^^rdf:plainLiteral
16:20:34 [Harold]
CONSTSHORT ::= ... | '"' UNICODESTRING '"' '@' langtag
16:22:03 [ChrisW]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Response_to_AR4
16:22:16 [AdrianP]
Harold: action-938 is related to the current discussion
16:23:37 [AdrianP]
Harold: have a comment near by the grammar and syntax
16:25:08 [AdrianP]
ChrisW: let's just add a comment about it
16:25:56 [AdrianP]
action Harold: add note to BLD, Core about plain literals
16:25:56 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-988 - Add note to BLD, Core about plain literals [on Harold Boley - due 2010-03-16].
16:28:29 [ChrisW]
TOPIC: Public COmments
16:29:35 [ChrisW]
TOPIC: At risk features
16:31:00 [csma]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Features_At_Risk
16:32:39 [AdrianP]
Sandro: we where concerned if it can be implemented
16:32:46 [AdrianP]
Sandro: - think we can do it
16:32:55 [ChrisW]
*PROPOSED:* keep the 1-to-1 lists (feature at risk)
16:33:01 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: keep the 1-to-1 lists (feature at risk)
16:33:39 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: keep the 1-to-1 lists, removing it from at-risk features for PR
16:33:48 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: keep the 1-to-1 lists in SWC, removing it from at-risk features for PR
16:33:58 [ChrisW]
+1
16:33:59 [DaveReynolds]
+1
16:34:31 [josb]
+1
16:34:35 [Harold]
+1
16:34:41 [MichaelKifer]
+1
16:34:42 [AdrianP]
+1
16:34:42 [sandro]
+1
16:34:50 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: keep the 1-to-1 lists in SWC, removing it from at-risk features for PR
16:35:46 [AdrianP]
ChrisW: next equality in the head
16:35:49 [AdrianP]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/BLD#Formulas
16:36:30 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: keep equality in rule conclusions for BLD, removing it from at-risk features for PR
16:36:32 [Harold]
+1
16:36:35 [ChrisW]
+1
16:36:37 [DaveReynolds]
0
16:36:40 [josb]
+1
16:36:51 [AdrianP]
+1
16:37:43 [sandro]
+0 i like it but slightly worried about implementation burden
16:38:25 [AdrianP]
Christian: Did the implementers implement it?
16:38:41 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: keep equality in rule conclusions for BLD, removing it from at-risk features for PR
16:38:45 [AdrianP]
ChrisW: at least in the reports they did not say "they don't"
16:39:04 [csma]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/BLD#Conformance_Clauses
16:39:20 [josb]
q+
16:40:00 [josb]
q-
16:40:58 [AdrianP]
Christian: Do not know the scope of the feature? If it is only about strictness no problem to remove it
16:41:04 [josb]
q+
16:41:53 [AdrianP]
Jos: strictness is a limitation the definition of conformance for consumer and producer. They only need to support the datatypes in DTB
16:45:22 [AdrianP]
Harold: could use MAY
16:45:37 [Harold]
s/MAY/can/
16:46:16 [Harold]
Michael?
16:48:30 [Harold]
With 'can' we could stress that both modes are equally conformant.
16:50:49 [Zakim]
-Harold
16:51:27 [Zakim]
+Harold
16:52:33 [Harold]
Do we have any comment about that "At Risk" from implementers?
16:52:34 [josb]
q+
16:53:17 [AdrianP]
Sandro: may sentence needs further clarification
16:53:17 [csma]
q+
16:54:00 [csma]
ack jos
16:57:42 [josb]
HTML existed before XML
16:57:46 [AdrianP]
csma: add a comment about extensions for conformant producers
16:59:13 [josb]
I don't say it forbids extensions
16:59:33 [josb]
indeed, you are no longer conformant if you support extensions
17:00:44 [AdrianP]
Sandro: would like to a "in strict mode" to make clear that extension are not forbidden in general
17:01:59 [Gary]
why not drop the requirement and change "A conformant RIF-BLD consumer must reject all inputs that do not match the syntax of BLD." to "A conformant RIF-BLD consumer must accept all inputs that match the syntax of BLD.
17:03:07 [csma]
+1
17:06:41 [josb]
I would abstain as well
17:08:40 [MichaelKifer]
I'd abstain, although I think it is not a good restriction
17:08:40 [josb]
(prefer non-strictness, as I was also arguing in Galway)
17:09:21 [josb]
I would
17:10:34 [Harold]
What about: -- having modes for strict BLD and for BLD running with extensions.
17:14:23 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: keep the DL-safeness restriction (feature at risk)
17:15:32 [josb]
+1
17:15:43 [DaveReynolds]
+1
17:15:53 [Harold]
+1
17:16:06 [AdrianP]
+1
17:16:11 [josb]
q+
17:16:19 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: keep dl-stafeness restriction in SWC, removing it from at-risk features for PR
17:16:36 [ChrisW]
+1
17:16:46 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: keep dl-stafeness restriction in SWC, removing it from at-risk features for PR
17:16:54 [AdrianP]
ChrisW: removing at risk features should be recorded in the change lock
17:19:11 [AdrianP]
ChrisW: Indexing from zero
17:20:45 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: keep keep indexing lists from zero in DTB, removing it from at-risk features for PR
17:20:54 [ChrisW]
+1
17:20:59 [josb]
+1
17:21:04 [AdrianP]
+1
17:21:08 [DaveReynolds]
+0 (number from 0 is right but having both conventions in one spec is confusing)
17:21:10 [Harold]
+1
17:21:44 [Gary]
+1
17:21:48 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: keep keep indexing lists from zero in DTB, removing it from at-risk features for PR
17:22:41 [AdrianP]
ChrisW: return to the strictness at risk feature
17:29:29 [AdrianP]
ChrisW: extension request
17:29:53 [AdrianP]
ChrisW: we need to be at least the implementations finished
17:30:08 [AdrianP]
ChrisW: need to put more pressure on the implementers
17:30:29 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: extend 5 minutes
17:30:35 [csma]
+1
17:31:23 [AdrianP]
ChrisW: DTB needs implementation
17:31:38 [AdrianP]
ChrisW: implementer at CTTIT left
17:32:17 [AdrianP]
ChrisW: need to activate the community
17:32:53 [Gary]
I have datetime, lists, numerics, and string builtin tests working
17:33:08 [AdrianP]
ChrisW: list for each implementation which datatypes and built-ins are supported by them
17:33:59 [ChrisW]
action: mkifer contact mdean for list of datatypes
17:33:59 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-989 - Contact mdean for list of datatypes [on Michael Kifer - due 2010-03-16].
17:34:02 [Harold]
Sandro and Chris, you mentioned a few weeks ago that you are in contact with Jos de Roo about his Euler Eye implementation of DTB?
17:34:18 [AdrianP]
action Michael: contact Mike Dean and ask which DTB type are supported
17:34:18 [trackbot]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Michael
17:34:18 [trackbot]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. msintek, mkifer, merdmann)
17:34:38 [sandro]
PROPOSED: We'll ask for a 6 month extension, contingent on WG requesting PR by the end March. Should proceed to Rec in May; WG intends to work on tutorial, test cases, and several Notes during these 6 months.
17:34:40 [AdrianP]
action MichaelKifer: contact Mike Dean and ask which DTB type are supported
17:34:40 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - MichaelKifer
17:34:56 [AdrianP]
action kifer: contact Mike Dean and ask which DTB type are supported
17:34:56 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-990 - Contact Mike Dean and ask which DTB type are supported [on Michael Kifer - due 2010-03-16].
17:35:23 [Harold]
+1
17:35:32 [ChrisW]
+1 to extension
17:35:32 [AdrianP]
+1
17:35:35 [sandro]
RESOLVED: We'll ask for a 6 month extension, contingent on WG requesting PR by the end March. Should proceed to Rec in May; WG intends to work on tutorial, test cases, and several Notes during these 6 months.
17:35:35 [Gary]
+1
17:35:36 [MichaelKifer]
+1
17:36:23 [ChrisW]
action: sandro to contact chime about DTB support
17:36:23 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-991 - Contact chime about DTB support [on Sandro Hawke - due 2010-03-16].
17:36:37 [ChrisW]
action: csma to contact changhai about DTB support
17:36:37 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-992 - Contact changhai about DTB support [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2010-03-16].
17:37:51 [ChrisW]
action: csma to contact jderoo about DTB support or get from implementation report
17:37:51 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-993 - Contact jderoo about DTB support or get from implementation report [on Christian de Sainte Marie - due 2010-03-16].
17:40:19 [ChrisW]
adjourned
17:40:22 [Zakim]
-Harold
17:40:24 [Zakim]
-Gary
17:40:24 [Zakim]
-Hassan_Ait-Kaci
17:40:25 [ChrisW]
zakim, list attendees
17:40:26 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been AdrianP, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, ChrisW, Harold, Sandro, +49.08.aaaa, josb, csma, Gary, DaveReynolds, MichaelKifer
17:40:27 [josb]
bye
17:40:27 [Zakim]
-DaveReynolds
17:40:33 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:40:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/09-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
17:40:41 [Zakim]
-MichaelKifer
17:40:45 [Zakim]
-josb
17:41:41 [Zakim]
-AdrianP
17:42:09 [Zakim]
-ChrisW
17:42:11 [Zakim]
-Sandro
17:42:12 [Zakim]
-csma
17:42:12 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
17:42:13 [Zakim]
Attendees were AdrianP, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, ChrisW, Harold, Sandro, +49.08.aaaa, josb, csma, Gary, DaveReynolds, MichaelKifer
17:45:44 [MichaelKifer]
MichaelKifer has left #rif