See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 04 March 2010
<scribe> scribe: allanj
KF: kudos all around. very productive.
GL: lazarus extension to firefox, that backsup all items in online forms incase of crashes.
KF: all F2F work is posted. http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2010/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20100226/
... thanks to Jeanne!!
discussion editorial comments and conventions
<scribe> ACTION: KP to copy edit draft with JS to normalize document and establish conventions [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-319 - Copy edit draft with JS to normalize document and establish conventions [on Kimberly Patch - due 2010-03-11].
<jeanne2> ACTION: Kim to do a copy edit pass of the document with jeanne for editorial consistency. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-320 - Do a copy edit pass of the document with jeanne for editorial consistency. [on Kimberly Patch - due 2010-03-11].
GL: add to 3.1.1 the clause we added to 3.1.2: "and, in cases where the alternative content has different dimensions than the original content, how the layout/reflow of the document should be handled". Should we?
JS: +1
all: +1
GL: note under related resouces in 3.1.1 should be copied to 3.1.2
<jeanne2> ACTION: JS to edit 3.1.1 and 3.1.2 to add Greg's phrase for an additional sentence. See the survey results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-321 - Edit 3.1.1 and 3.1.2 to add Greg's phrase for an additional sentence. See the survey results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq1 [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-03-11].
<jeanne2> RESOLUTION: accept 3.1.1 with Greg and Kim edits
<jeanne2> RESOLUTION: 3.1.2 accepted with minor error correction. See results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq2
<jeanne2> ACTION: Jeanne to update document with the proposal for 3.1.2 with edits from http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq2 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-322 - Update document with the proposal for 3.1.2 with edits from http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq2 [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-03-11].
<scribe> ACTION: JA to add review 3.1.3 and 3.1.5 to agenda for next week [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-323 - Add review 3.1.3 and 3.1.5 to agenda for next week [on Jim Allan - due 2010-03-11].
<jeanne2> ACTION: add 3.3.1 to next agenda for discussion [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - add
<scribe> ACTION: JA to add 3.3.1 discussion to agenda [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#action07]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-324 - Add 3.3.1 discussion to agenda [on Jim Allan - due 2010-03-11].
GL: 3.3.2 Location in Hierarchy: For content in a
hierarchy (e.g., tree node, nested frame), the user can view the path of nodes
leading from the root to the content. (Level AA)
... Major: As written this would include all HTML, as it is hierarchical. Is
that the intent? If so, examples should make that explicit. Such a feature
would be very useful, but I don't know if it's yet implemented in a useful
fashion (as opposed to as a complex feature for developers). Note that outline
view would not be enough, because as written this would require exposing every
div...
... element, etc. Or we could modify it to not apply to all source markup.
KF: perhaps, it should be to support languages ability to provide hierarchary
GL: This is about exposing through the user interface, not in the DOM.
SH: with implementation of lists. Javascript, AJAX creating widgets from bits of html.
KF: that is a content issue. The author needs to add in ARIA. the UA should support ARIA.
GL: see the example ... "A media player provides
a hierarchical display of playlists, albums, artists and songs, etc. When the
user selects an individual item, a breadcrumb of the categories is displayed,
can be navigated and is available programatically."
... this is a UA task, not an author task.
... not sure if needed?
JS: should be in GL 2
KF: for well structured content, that reduced visual clutter. would be good for ld.
JA: this seems to say body, heading 1, paragraph 3 list list item 3
SH: what would we gain by loosing it.
GL: if an item is unclear, then it needs
clarification or removal.
... split into 2 issues (content-page, document-set breadcrumbs, list of songs
in media player, etc)
KF: In IE can get a tree view of all nodes in a document.
SH: are we not talking about content presented in
a hierarchy, semantics are explicit.
... if semantics are not explicit in the content, UA could impose a
structure.
<Greg> GL to clarify: split into one SC for structure within a document, and one for document sets (e.g. breadcrumbs, categorization of media, ec.) The latter may be compelling, the former may not be.
SH: media player has music in many directories, but appear to the user as one list.
GL: this overlaps with structured navigation.
KP: a lot of mouse use, overlaps with keyboard. important to give users a handle to allow them to uncomplicate things.
GL: who wants to champion? expand with intention and examples.
<scribe> ACTION: SH to rewrite 3.3.2 with intention and examples. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#action08]
<trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - SH
<trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. sharper, shayes)
<jeanne2> ACTION: SH to clean up 3.3.2 and send proposals to the list. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#action09]
<trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - SH
<trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. sharper, shayes)
<scribe> ACTION: SHarper to rewrite 3.3.2 with intention and examples. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#action10]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-325 - Rewrite 3.3.2 with intention and examples. [on Simon Harper - due 2010-03-11].
KF: why is this important to PWD (people with disabilities)
GL: see 3.4.1 This is particularly important for users with some disabilities, who may not be able to use some forms of content (e.g. images) or may even need to avoid some forms of content (e.g. animations) and therefore choose to replace them with alternative content.
JS: then need to know that something was not rendered.
KF: when images don't load, you get a red X and blocks out space for image.
From UAAG10 http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG10/uaag10.html#tech-conditional-content
KP: if you need alternative content, shouldn't have to see it's not there before I try to find an alternative
KF: as default, I say give me @alt or give me nothing what should UA render?
KP: red X
SH: what about file name.
KF: that's what screen readers do.
GL: what if UA gives no feedback about any missing content, why should the UA have to do more specifically for PWD
KF: should make a note that we are removing this SC because it overlaps with other SC. This SC does nothing to help PWD ...
MH: i am a developer using a screenreader, I mistype url, so an image does not show. How will I know if the images doesn't show.
KF: screen reader user would never know if an
image rendered, because screenreader gives all kinds of other information.
... is 3.3.6 really needed?
GL: SC elsewhere to show alt content for an item.
This is saying show something when primary resource is not available. this is
the same as 3.1.5
... wording overlaps. could reword 3.1.5 to include this case.
... gets complicated.
... if something links to content that is missing, what should happen.
SH: user should know when something is missing.
GL: this SC does not say that. it says UA must show something to a user if something is missing. (JA missed this)
KF: what is inverse, when no image the UA shows a
red x, if no alt then the screenreader user gets nothing.
... as written this is not clear. Someone champion or put on survey for
deletion.
... any objection to deletion now.
SH: no objection about deletion, what will take its place. need something that tells user that something is missing.
GL: current wording is ambiguous.
KF: any objections
all: no objections.
<jeanne2> ACTION: jeanne to delete 3.3.6 and add to status section that 3.3.6 was removed because it was not specific to users with accessibilities, and the parts that were relevant to accessibility are covered by other SC. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#action11]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-326 - Delete 3.3.6 and add to status section that 3.3.6 was removed because it was not specific to users with accessibilities, and the parts that were relevant to accessibility are covered by other SC. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-03-11].
KF: other issue, when UA indicates errors or missing content (RED X), are they done accessibly.
GL: present, not present; found, not found attribute not listed in GL2, may not be in the dom.
JA: if UA puts up 'red x" why not say 'missing image'
kF: but what if missing image has an @alt, 'missing image' would overwrite the @alt.
UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: do we want to publish, with proposed items as a trial basis, or take all face to face text out.
<jeanne2> ACTION: kford to follow up on 3.3.6 internally and report back [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html#action12]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-327 - Follow up on 3.3.6 internally and report back [on Kelly Ford - due 2010-03-11].
GL: better with new stuff
all: +1
<jeanne2> RESOLUTION: To publish UAAG 2.0 as a Working Draft and Implementing UAAG 2.0 as a First Public Working Draft with the draft proposals included.
GL: this about the UI, progress indicators should
be accessible.
... why is this here., this should be in GL2 programmatic access.
KF: keep survey open, state comments with 3.3.7
kudos to Knowbility for hosting reception.
KF: Thanks to Jim and TSBVI for hosting the meeting. Well done.
<kford> Jim are you closing it out?
yes
<kford> thanks.
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135 of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/what is/what if/ Found Scribe: allanj Inferring ScribeNick: AllanJ Default Present: Jeanne, Greg, kford, AllanJ, sharper, KimPatch, Mark_Hakkinen WARNING: Replacing previous Present list. (Old list: Kelly, Jim, Simon, Greg, Jeanne) Use 'Present+ ... ' if you meant to add people without replacing the list, such as: <dbooth> Present+ +KimPatch Present: +KimPatch WARNING: Fewer than 3 people found for Present list! Regrets: Patrick Found Date: 04 Mar 2010 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html People with action items: 3.3.1 add ja jeanne js kford kim kp sh sharper[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]