17:37:36 RRSAgent has joined #ua 17:37:36 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-irc 17:37:38 RRSAgent, make logs public 17:37:38 Zakim has joined #ua 17:37:40 Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG 17:37:40 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 23 minutes 17:37:41 Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 17:37:41 Date: 04 March 2010 17:48:22 AllanJ has joined #ua 17:56:15 Agenda+F2F Recap 17:56:16 Agenda+ Discuss survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/ 17:58:25 Chair: Jim_Allan_Kelly_Ford 18:00:28 jeanne2 has joined #ua 18:00:44 zakim, code? 18:00:44 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne2 18:00:52 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 18:01:00 +Jeanne 18:01:04 +Greg 18:01:32 Greg has joined #ua 18:01:45 sharper has joined #ua 18:02:17 +[Microsoft] 18:02:31 zakim, microsoft is kford 18:02:31 +kford; got it 18:03:29 zakim, code? 18:03:29 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), sharper 18:04:16 +??P8 18:04:17 +AllanJ 18:04:27 zakim, ??P8 is sharper 18:04:27 +sharper; got it 18:04:36 Regrets: Patrick 18:06:26 Present: Kelly, Jim, Simon, Greg, Jeanne 18:06:35 rrsagent, make minutes 18:06:35 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html kford 18:06:55 scribe: allanj 18:07:04 zakim, agenda? 18:07:04 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda: 18:07:06 1. F2F Recap [from kford] 18:07:07 2. Discuss survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/ [from kford] 18:07:28 zakim, take up item 1 18:07:28 agendum 1. "F2F Recap" taken up [from kford] 18:08:05 KF: kudos all around. very productive. 18:08:59 zakim, item 2 18:08:59 I don't understand 'item 2', AllanJ 18:09:08 zakim, takeup item 1 18:09:08 I don't understand 'takeup item 1', AllanJ 18:09:26 zakim, open item 2 18:09:26 agendum 2. "Discuss survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/" taken up [from kford] 18:10:22 GL: lazarus extension to firefox, that backsup all items in online forms incase of crashes. 18:11:14 KF: all F2F work is posted. http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2010/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20100226/ 18:11:33 ... thanks to Jeanne!! 18:11:38 +KimPatch 18:11:53 present: +KimPatch 18:12:05 KimPatch has joined #ua 18:13:21 Topic: 3.1 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq1 18:14:52 discussion editorial comments and conventions 18:17:14 action: KP to copy edit draft with JS to normalize document and establish conventions 18:17:14 Created ACTION-319 - Copy edit draft with JS to normalize document and establish conventions [on Kimberly Patch - due 2010-03-11]. 18:17:19 action: Kim to do a copy edit pass of the document with jeanne for editorial consistency. 18:17:19 Created ACTION-320 - Do a copy edit pass of the document with jeanne for editorial consistency. [on Kimberly Patch - due 2010-03-11]. 18:18:46 GL: add to 3.1.1 the clause we added to 3.1.2: "and, in cases where the alternative content has different dimensions than the original content, how the layout/reflow of the document should be handled". Should we? 18:18:52 JS: +1 18:18:59 all: +1 18:19:42 GL: note under related resouces in 3.1.1 should be copied to 3.1.2 18:19:51 action: JS to edit 3.1.1 and 3.1.2 to add Greg's phrase for an additional sentence. See the survey results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq1 18:19:51 Created ACTION-321 - Edit 3.1.1 and 3.1.2 to add Greg's phrase for an additional sentence. See the survey results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq1 [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-03-11]. 18:20:34 RESOLUTION: accept 3.1.1 with Greg and Kim edits 18:20:54 topic: 3.1.2 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq2 18:21:43 RESOLUTION: 3.1.2 accepted with minor error correction. See results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq2 18:22:22 action: Jeanne to update document with the proposal for 3.1.2 with edits from http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq2 18:22:22 Created ACTION-322 - Update document with the proposal for 3.1.2 with edits from http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq2 [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-03-11]. 18:26:55 action: JA to add review 3.1.3 and 3.1.5 to agenda for next week 18:26:55 Created ACTION-323 - Add review 3.1.3 and 3.1.5 to agenda for next week [on Jim Allan - due 2010-03-11]. 18:29:44 action: add 3.3.1 to next agenda for discussion 18:29:44 Sorry, couldn't find user - add 18:29:46 action: JA to add 3.3.1 discussion to agenda 18:29:47 Created ACTION-324 - Add 3.3.1 discussion to agenda [on Jim Allan - due 2010-03-11]. 18:30:19 topic: 3.3.2 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq5 18:31:01 GL: 3.3.2 Location in Hierarchy: For content in a hierarchy (e.g., tree node, nested frame), the user can view the path of nodes leading from the root to the content. (Level AA) 18:31:13 ... Major: As written this would include all HTML, as it is hierarchical. Is that the intent? If so, examples should make that explicit. Such a feature would be very useful, but I don't know if it's yet implemented in a useful fashion (as opposed to as a complex feature for developers). Note that outline view would not be enough, because as written this would require exposing every div... 18:31:14 ...element, etc. Or we could modify it to not apply to all source markup. 18:33:20 KF: perhaps, it should be to support languages ability to provide hierarchary 18:33:49 GL: This is about exposing through the user interface, not in the DOM. 18:35:00 SH: with implementation of lists. Javascript, AJAX creating widgets from bits of html. 18:35:47 KF: that is a content issue. The author needs to add in ARIA. the UA should support ARIA. 18:36:17 GL: see the example ... "A media player provides a hierarchical display of playlists, albums, artists and songs, etc. When the user selects an individual item, a breadcrumb of the categories is displayed, can be navigated and is available programatically." 18:36:39 ... this is a UA task, not an author task. 18:37:43 GL: not sure if needed? 18:38:48 JS: should be in GL 2 18:41:58 KF: for well structured content, that reduced visual clutter. would be good for ld. 18:42:56 JA: this seems to say body, heading 1, paragraph 3 list list item 3 18:43:08 SH: what would we gain by loosing it. 18:43:29 GL: if an item is unclear, then it needs clarification or removal. 18:44:23 ... split into 2 issues (content-page, document-set breadcrumbs, list of songs in media player, etc) 18:45:46 KF: In IE can get a tree view of all nodes in a document. 18:46:10 SH: are we not talking about content presented in a hierarchy, semantics are explicit. 18:46:57 ... if semantics are not explicit in the content, UA could impose a structure. 18:47:46 GL to clarify: split into one SC for structure within a document, and one for document sets (e.g. breadcrumbs, categorization of media, ec.) The latter may be compelling, the former may not be. 18:48:07 ... media player has music in many directories, but appear to the user as one list. 18:48:27 GL: this overlaps with structured navigation. 18:49:10 KP: a lot of mouse use, overlaps with keyboard. important to give users a handle to allow them to uncomplicate things. 18:49:30 GL: who wants to champion? expand with intention and examples. 18:50:03 Action: SH to rewrite 3.3.2 with intention and examples. 18:50:03 Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - SH 18:50:03 Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. sharper, shayes) 18:50:04 action: SH to clean up 3.3.2 and send proposals to the list. 18:50:04 Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - SH 18:50:04 Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. sharper, shayes) 18:50:14 Action: SHarper to rewrite 3.3.2 with intention and examples. 18:50:15 Created ACTION-325 - Rewrite 3.3.2 with intention and examples. [on Simon Harper - due 2010-03-11]. 18:50:33 +[IPcaller] 18:50:38 topic: 3.3.6 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq6 18:51:09 zakim, IPcaller is really Mark_Hakkinen 18:51:09 +Mark_Hakkinen; got it 18:52:01 KF: why is this important to PWD (people with disabilities) 18:52:17 mhakkinen has joined #ua 18:53:42 GL: see 3.4.1 This is particularly important for users with some disabilities, who may not be able to use some forms of content (e.g. images) or may even need to avoid some forms of content (e.g. animations) and therefore choose to replace them with alternative content. 18:54:12 JS: then need to know that something was not rendered. 18:55:43 KF: when images don't load, you get a red X and blocks out space for image. 18:57:03 From UAAG10 http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG10/uaag10.html#tech-conditional-content 18:58:27 KP: if you need alternative content, shouldn't have to see it's not there before I try to find an alternative 18:59:33 KF: as default, I say give me @alt or give me nothing what should UA render? 18:59:39 KP: red X 18:59:59 SH: what about file name. 19:00:55 KF: that's what screen readers do. 19:01:59 GL: what is UA gives no feedback about any missing content, why should the UA have to do more specifically for PWD 19:02:17 s/what is/what if 19:03:30 KF: should make a note that we are removing this SC because it overlaps with other SC. This SC does nothing to help PWD ... 19:04:49 MH: i am a developer using a screenreader, I mistype url, so an image does not show. How will I know if the images doesn't show. 19:05:54 KF: screen reader user would never know if an image rendered, because screenreader gives all kinds of other information. 19:07:55 KF: is 3.3.6 really needed? 19:08:58 GL: SC elsewhere to show alt content for an item. This is saying show something when primary resource is not available. this is the same as 3.1.5 19:09:31 ... wording overlaps. could reword 3.1.5 to include this case. 19:09:46 ... gets complicated. 19:10:07 ... if something links to content that is missing, what should happen. 19:11:06 SH: user should know when something is missing. 19:12:30 GL: this SC does not say that. it says UA must show something to a user if something is missing. (JA missed this) 19:13:23 KF: what is inverse, when no image the UA shows a red x, if no alt then the screenreader user gets nothing. 19:13:47 ...as written this is not clear. Someone champion or put on survey for deletion. 19:14:02 KF: any objection to deletion now. 19:14:41 SH: no objection about deletion, what will take its place. need something that tells user that something is missing. 19:15:10 GL: current wording is ambiguous. 19:15:24 KF: any objections 19:15:52 all: no objections. 19:16:04 action: jeanne to delete 3.3.6 and add to status section that 3.3.6 was removed because it was not specific to users with accessibilities, and the parts that were relevant to accessibility are covered by other SC. 19:16:04 Created ACTION-326 - Delete 3.3.6 and add to status section that 3.3.6 was removed because it was not specific to users with accessibilities, and the parts that were relevant to accessibility are covered by other SC. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-03-11]. 19:16:37 KF: other issue, when UA indicates errors or missing content (RED X), are they done accessibly. 19:17:36 GL: present, not present; found, not found attribute not listed in GL2, may not be in the dom. 19:18:35 JA: if UA puts up 'red x" why not say 'missing image' 19:19:26 kF: but what if missing image has an @alt, 'missing image' would overwrite the @alt. 19:19:51 Topic: publish working draft on Mar 11 (before CSUN) 19:20:24 ... do we want to publish, with proposed items as a trial basis, or take all face to face text out. 19:20:30 action: kford to follow up on 3.3.6 internally and report back 19:20:30 Created ACTION-327 - Follow up on 3.3.6 internally and report back [on Kelly Ford - due 2010-03-11]. 19:20:41 GL: better with new stuff 19:20:59 all: +1 19:21:33 RESOLUTION: To publish UAAG 2.0 as a Working Draft and Implementing UAAG 2.0 as a First Public Working Draft with the draft proposals included. 19:22:09 topic: 3.3.7 content retrieval http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq7 19:22:55 GL: this about the UI, progress indicators should be accessible. 19:24:13 ... why is this here., this should be in GL2 programmatic access. 19:25:23 KF: keep survey open, state comments with 3.3.7 19:26:22 kudos to Knowbility for hosting reception. 19:28:06 -Mark_Hakkinen 19:28:07 -kford 19:28:07 -sharper 19:28:09 -KimPatch 19:28:10 -Jeanne 19:28:12 -Greg 19:28:19 KF: Thanks to Jim and TSBVI for hosting the meeting. Well done. 19:28:24 -AllanJ 19:28:25 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended 19:28:27 Attendees were Jeanne, Greg, kford, AllanJ, sharper, KimPatch, Mark_Hakkinen 19:28:36 rrsagent, make minutes 19:28:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html AllanJ 19:28:38 Jim are you closing it out? 19:28:44 yes 19:28:58 rrsagent, set logs public 19:29:07 thanks. 19:30:53 zakim, please part 19:30:53 Zakim has left #ua 19:31:17 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:31:17 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html AllanJ 19:32:15 rrsagent, please part 19:32:15 I see 12 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-actions.rdf : 19:32:15 ACTION: KP to copy edit draft with JS to normalize document and establish conventions [1] 19:32:15 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-irc#T18-17-14 19:32:15 ACTION: Kim to do a copy edit pass of the document with jeanne for editorial consistency. [2] 19:32:15 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-irc#T18-17-19 19:32:15 ACTION: JS to edit 3.1.1 and 3.1.2 to add Greg's phrase for an additional sentence. See the survey results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq1 [3] 19:32:15 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-irc#T18-19-51 19:32:15 ACTION: Jeanne to update document with the proposal for 3.1.2 with edits from http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq2 [4] 19:32:15 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-irc#T18-22-22 19:32:15 ACTION: JA to add review 3.1.3 and 3.1.5 to agenda for next week [5] 19:32:15 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-irc#T18-26-55 19:32:15 ACTION: add 3.3.1 to next agenda for discussion [6] 19:32:15 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-irc#T18-29-44 19:32:15 ACTION: JA to add 3.3.1 discussion to agenda [7] 19:32:15 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-irc#T18-29-46 19:32:15 ACTION: SH to rewrite 3.3.2 with intention and examples. [8] 19:32:15 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-irc#T18-50-03 19:32:15 ACTION: SH to clean up 3.3.2 and send proposals to the list. [9] 19:32:15 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-irc#T18-50-04 19:32:15 ACTION: SHarper to rewrite 3.3.2 with intention and examples. [10] 19:32:15 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-irc#T18-50-14 19:32:15 ACTION: jeanne to delete 3.3.6 and add to status section that 3.3.6 was removed because it was not specific to users with accessibilities, and the parts that were relevant to accessibility are covered by other SC. [11] 19:32:15 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-irc#T19-16-04 19:32:15 ACTION: kford to follow up on 3.3.6 internally and report back [12] 19:32:15 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-irc#T19-20-30