IRC log of ua on 2010-03-04

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:37:36 [RRSAgent]
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17:37:36 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-irc
17:37:38 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:37:38 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
17:37:40 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
17:37:40 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 23 minutes
17:37:41 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
17:37:41 [trackbot]
Date: 04 March 2010
17:48:22 [AllanJ]
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17:56:15 [kford]
Agenda+F2F Recap
17:56:16 [kford]
Agenda+ Discuss survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/
17:58:25 [kford]
Chair: Jim_Allan_Kelly_Ford
18:00:28 [jeanne2]
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18:00:44 [jeanne2]
zakim, code?
18:00:44 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne2
18:00:52 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
18:01:00 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
18:01:04 [Zakim]
+Greg
18:01:32 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
18:01:45 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
18:02:17 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
18:02:31 [kford]
zakim, microsoft is kford
18:02:31 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
18:03:29 [sharper]
zakim, code?
18:03:29 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), sharper
18:04:16 [Zakim]
+??P8
18:04:17 [Zakim]
+AllanJ
18:04:27 [sharper]
zakim, ??P8 is sharper
18:04:27 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
18:04:36 [kford]
Regrets: Patrick
18:06:26 [kford]
Present: Kelly, Jim, Simon, Greg, Jeanne
18:06:35 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:06:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html kford
18:06:55 [AllanJ]
scribe: allanj
18:07:04 [AllanJ]
zakim, agenda?
18:07:04 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
18:07:06 [Zakim]
1. F2F Recap [from kford]
18:07:07 [Zakim]
2. Discuss survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/ [from kford]
18:07:28 [AllanJ]
zakim, take up item 1
18:07:28 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "F2F Recap" taken up [from kford]
18:08:05 [AllanJ]
KF: kudos all around. very productive.
18:08:59 [AllanJ]
zakim, item 2
18:08:59 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'item 2', AllanJ
18:09:08 [AllanJ]
zakim, takeup item 1
18:09:08 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'takeup item 1', AllanJ
18:09:26 [AllanJ]
zakim, open item 2
18:09:26 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Discuss survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/" taken up [from kford]
18:10:22 [AllanJ]
GL: lazarus extension to firefox, that backsup all items in online forms incase of crashes.
18:11:14 [AllanJ]
KF: all F2F work is posted. http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2010/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20100226/
18:11:33 [AllanJ]
... thanks to Jeanne!!
18:11:38 [Zakim]
+KimPatch
18:11:53 [AllanJ]
present: +KimPatch
18:12:05 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
18:13:21 [AllanJ]
Topic: 3.1 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq1
18:14:52 [AllanJ]
discussion editorial comments and conventions
18:17:14 [AllanJ]
action: KP to copy edit draft with JS to normalize document and establish conventions
18:17:14 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-319 - Copy edit draft with JS to normalize document and establish conventions [on Kimberly Patch - due 2010-03-11].
18:17:19 [jeanne2]
action: Kim to do a copy edit pass of the document with jeanne for editorial consistency.
18:17:19 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-320 - Do a copy edit pass of the document with jeanne for editorial consistency. [on Kimberly Patch - due 2010-03-11].
18:18:46 [AllanJ]
GL: add to 3.1.1 the clause we added to 3.1.2: "and, in cases where the alternative content has different dimensions than the original content, how the layout/reflow of the document should be handled". Should we?
18:18:52 [AllanJ]
JS: +1
18:18:59 [AllanJ]
all: +1
18:19:42 [AllanJ]
GL: note under related resouces in 3.1.1 should be copied to 3.1.2
18:19:51 [jeanne2]
action: JS to edit 3.1.1 and 3.1.2 to add Greg's phrase for an additional sentence. See the survey results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq1
18:19:51 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-321 - Edit 3.1.1 and 3.1.2 to add Greg's phrase for an additional sentence. See the survey results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq1 [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-03-11].
18:20:34 [jeanne2]
RESOLUTION: accept 3.1.1 with Greg and Kim edits
18:20:54 [AllanJ]
topic: 3.1.2 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq2
18:21:43 [jeanne2]
RESOLUTION: 3.1.2 accepted with minor error correction. See results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq2
18:22:22 [jeanne2]
action: Jeanne to update document with the proposal for 3.1.2 with edits from http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq2
18:22:22 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-322 - Update document with the proposal for 3.1.2 with edits from http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq2 [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-03-11].
18:26:55 [AllanJ]
action: JA to add review 3.1.3 and 3.1.5 to agenda for next week
18:26:55 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-323 - Add review 3.1.3 and 3.1.5 to agenda for next week [on Jim Allan - due 2010-03-11].
18:29:44 [jeanne2]
action: add 3.3.1 to next agenda for discussion
18:29:44 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - add
18:29:46 [AllanJ]
action: JA to add 3.3.1 discussion to agenda
18:29:47 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-324 - Add 3.3.1 discussion to agenda [on Jim Allan - due 2010-03-11].
18:30:19 [AllanJ]
topic: 3.3.2 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq5
18:31:01 [AllanJ]
GL: 3.3.2 Location in Hierarchy: For content in a hierarchy (e.g., tree node, nested frame), the user can view the path of nodes leading from the root to the content. (Level AA)
18:31:13 [AllanJ]
... Major: As written this would include all HTML, as it is hierarchical. Is that the intent? If so, examples should make that explicit. Such a feature would be very useful, but I don't know if it's yet implemented in a useful fashion (as opposed to as a complex feature for developers). Note that outline view would not be enough, because as written this would require exposing every div...
18:31:14 [AllanJ]
...element, etc. Or we could modify it to not apply to all source markup.
18:33:20 [AllanJ]
KF: perhaps, it should be to support languages ability to provide hierarchary
18:33:49 [AllanJ]
GL: This is about exposing through the user interface, not in the DOM.
18:35:00 [AllanJ]
SH: with implementation of lists. Javascript, AJAX creating widgets from bits of html.
18:35:47 [AllanJ]
KF: that is a content issue. The author needs to add in ARIA. the UA should support ARIA.
18:36:17 [AllanJ]
GL: see the example ... "A media player provides a hierarchical display of playlists, albums, artists and songs, etc. When the user selects an individual item, a breadcrumb of the categories is displayed, can be navigated and is available programatically."
18:36:39 [AllanJ]
... this is a UA task, not an author task.
18:37:43 [AllanJ]
GL: not sure if needed?
18:38:48 [AllanJ]
JS: should be in GL 2
18:41:58 [AllanJ]
KF: for well structured content, that reduced visual clutter. would be good for ld.
18:42:56 [AllanJ]
JA: this seems to say body, heading 1, paragraph 3 list list item 3
18:43:08 [AllanJ]
SH: what would we gain by loosing it.
18:43:29 [AllanJ]
GL: if an item is unclear, then it needs clarification or removal.
18:44:23 [AllanJ]
... split into 2 issues (content-page, document-set breadcrumbs, list of songs in media player, etc)
18:45:46 [AllanJ]
KF: In IE can get a tree view of all nodes in a document.
18:46:10 [AllanJ]
SH: are we not talking about content presented in a hierarchy, semantics are explicit.
18:46:57 [AllanJ]
... if semantics are not explicit in the content, UA could impose a structure.
18:47:46 [Greg]
GL to clarify: split into one SC for structure within a document, and one for document sets (e.g. breadcrumbs, categorization of media, ec.) The latter may be compelling, the former may not be.
18:48:07 [AllanJ]
... media player has music in many directories, but appear to the user as one list.
18:48:27 [AllanJ]
GL: this overlaps with structured navigation.
18:49:10 [AllanJ]
KP: a lot of mouse use, overlaps with keyboard. important to give users a handle to allow them to uncomplicate things.
18:49:30 [AllanJ]
GL: who wants to champion? expand with intention and examples.
18:50:03 [AllanJ]
Action: SH to rewrite 3.3.2 with intention and examples.
18:50:03 [trackbot]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - SH
18:50:03 [trackbot]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. sharper, shayes)
18:50:04 [jeanne2]
action: SH to clean up 3.3.2 and send proposals to the list.
18:50:04 [trackbot]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - SH
18:50:04 [trackbot]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. sharper, shayes)
18:50:14 [AllanJ]
Action: SHarper to rewrite 3.3.2 with intention and examples.
18:50:15 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-325 - Rewrite 3.3.2 with intention and examples. [on Simon Harper - due 2010-03-11].
18:50:33 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
18:50:38 [AllanJ]
topic: 3.3.6 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq6
18:51:09 [AllanJ]
zakim, IPcaller is really Mark_Hakkinen
18:51:09 [Zakim]
+Mark_Hakkinen; got it
18:52:01 [AllanJ]
KF: why is this important to PWD (people with disabilities)
18:52:17 [mhakkinen]
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18:53:42 [AllanJ]
GL: see 3.4.1 This is particularly important for users with some disabilities, who may not be able to use some forms of content (e.g. images) or may even need to avoid some forms of content (e.g. animations) and therefore choose to replace them with alternative content.
18:54:12 [AllanJ]
JS: then need to know that something was not rendered.
18:55:43 [AllanJ]
KF: when images don't load, you get a red X and blocks out space for image.
18:57:03 [AllanJ]
From UAAG10 http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG10/uaag10.html#tech-conditional-content
18:58:27 [AllanJ]
KP: if you need alternative content, shouldn't have to see it's not there before I try to find an alternative
18:59:33 [AllanJ]
KF: as default, I say give me @alt or give me nothing what should UA render?
18:59:39 [AllanJ]
KP: red X
18:59:59 [AllanJ]
SH: what about file name.
19:00:55 [AllanJ]
KF: that's what screen readers do.
19:01:59 [AllanJ]
GL: what is UA gives no feedback about any missing content, why should the UA have to do more specifically for PWD
19:02:17 [AllanJ]
s/what is/what if
19:03:30 [AllanJ]
KF: should make a note that we are removing this SC because it overlaps with other SC. This SC does nothing to help PWD ...
19:04:49 [AllanJ]
MH: i am a developer using a screenreader, I mistype url, so an image does not show. How will I know if the images doesn't show.
19:05:54 [AllanJ]
KF: screen reader user would never know if an image rendered, because screenreader gives all kinds of other information.
19:07:55 [AllanJ]
KF: is 3.3.6 really needed?
19:08:58 [AllanJ]
GL: SC elsewhere to show alt content for an item. This is saying show something when primary resource is not available. this is the same as 3.1.5
19:09:31 [AllanJ]
... wording overlaps. could reword 3.1.5 to include this case.
19:09:46 [AllanJ]
... gets complicated.
19:10:07 [AllanJ]
... if something links to content that is missing, what should happen.
19:11:06 [AllanJ]
SH: user should know when something is missing.
19:12:30 [AllanJ]
GL: this SC does not say that. it says UA must show something to a user if something is missing. (JA missed this)
19:13:23 [AllanJ]
KF: what is inverse, when no image the UA shows a red x, if no alt then the screenreader user gets nothing.
19:13:47 [AllanJ]
...as written this is not clear. Someone champion or put on survey for deletion.
19:14:02 [AllanJ]
KF: any objection to deletion now.
19:14:41 [AllanJ]
SH: no objection about deletion, what will take its place. need something that tells user that something is missing.
19:15:10 [AllanJ]
GL: current wording is ambiguous.
19:15:24 [AllanJ]
KF: any objections
19:15:52 [AllanJ]
all: no objections.
19:16:04 [jeanne2]
action: jeanne to delete 3.3.6 and add to status section that 3.3.6 was removed because it was not specific to users with accessibilities, and the parts that were relevant to accessibility are covered by other SC.
19:16:04 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-326 - Delete 3.3.6 and add to status section that 3.3.6 was removed because it was not specific to users with accessibilities, and the parts that were relevant to accessibility are covered by other SC. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-03-11].
19:16:37 [AllanJ]
KF: other issue, when UA indicates errors or missing content (RED X), are they done accessibly.
19:17:36 [AllanJ]
GL: present, not present; found, not found attribute not listed in GL2, may not be in the dom.
19:18:35 [AllanJ]
JA: if UA puts up 'red x" why not say 'missing image'
19:19:26 [AllanJ]
kF: but what if missing image has an @alt, 'missing image' would overwrite the @alt.
19:19:51 [AllanJ]
Topic: publish working draft on Mar 11 (before CSUN)
19:20:24 [AllanJ]
... do we want to publish, with proposed items as a trial basis, or take all face to face text out.
19:20:30 [jeanne2]
action: kford to follow up on 3.3.6 internally and report back
19:20:30 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-327 - Follow up on 3.3.6 internally and report back [on Kelly Ford - due 2010-03-11].
19:20:41 [AllanJ]
GL: better with new stuff
19:20:59 [AllanJ]
all: +1
19:21:33 [jeanne2]
RESOLUTION: To publish UAAG 2.0 as a Working Draft and Implementing UAAG 2.0 as a First Public Working Draft with the draft proposals included.
19:22:09 [AllanJ]
topic: 3.3.7 content retrieval http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq7
19:22:55 [AllanJ]
GL: this about the UI, progress indicators should be accessible.
19:24:13 [AllanJ]
... why is this here., this should be in GL2 programmatic access.
19:25:23 [AllanJ]
KF: keep survey open, state comments with 3.3.7
19:26:22 [AllanJ]
kudos to Knowbility for hosting reception.
19:28:06 [Zakim]
-Mark_Hakkinen
19:28:07 [Zakim]
-kford
19:28:07 [Zakim]
-sharper
19:28:09 [Zakim]
-KimPatch
19:28:10 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
19:28:12 [Zakim]
-Greg
19:28:19 [AllanJ]
KF: Thanks to Jim and TSBVI for hosting the meeting. Well done.
19:28:24 [Zakim]
-AllanJ
19:28:25 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
19:28:27 [Zakim]
Attendees were Jeanne, Greg, kford, AllanJ, sharper, KimPatch, Mark_Hakkinen
19:28:36 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:28:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html AllanJ
19:28:38 [kford]
Jim are you closing it out?
19:28:44 [AllanJ]
yes
19:28:58 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, set logs public
19:29:07 [kford]
thanks.
19:30:53 [AllanJ]
zakim, please part
19:30:53 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
19:31:17 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:31:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-minutes.html AllanJ
19:32:15 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, please part
19:32:15 [RRSAgent]
I see 12 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-actions.rdf :
19:32:15 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: KP to copy edit draft with JS to normalize document and establish conventions [1]
19:32:15 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-irc#T18-17-14
19:32:15 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Kim to do a copy edit pass of the document with jeanne for editorial consistency. [2]
19:32:15 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-irc#T18-17-19
19:32:15 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to edit 3.1.1 and 3.1.2 to add Greg's phrase for an additional sentence. See the survey results http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq1 [3]
19:32:15 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-irc#T18-19-51
19:32:15 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne to update document with the proposal for 3.1.2 with edits from http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100302/results#xq2 [4]
19:32:15 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-irc#T18-22-22
19:32:15 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JA to add review 3.1.3 and 3.1.5 to agenda for next week [5]
19:32:15 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-irc#T18-26-55
19:32:15 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: add 3.3.1 to next agenda for discussion [6]
19:32:15 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-irc#T18-29-44
19:32:15 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JA to add 3.3.1 discussion to agenda [7]
19:32:15 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-irc#T18-29-46
19:32:15 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: SH to rewrite 3.3.2 with intention and examples. [8]
19:32:15 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-irc#T18-50-03
19:32:15 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: SH to clean up 3.3.2 and send proposals to the list. [9]
19:32:15 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-irc#T18-50-04
19:32:15 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: SHarper to rewrite 3.3.2 with intention and examples. [10]
19:32:15 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-irc#T18-50-14
19:32:15 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to delete 3.3.6 and add to status section that 3.3.6 was removed because it was not specific to users with accessibilities, and the parts that were relevant to accessibility are covered by other SC. [11]
19:32:15 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-irc#T19-16-04
19:32:15 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: kford to follow up on 3.3.6 internally and report back [12]
19:32:15 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-ua-irc#T19-20-30