15:57:22 RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
15:57:22 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-html-a11y-irc
15:57:24 RRSAgent, make logs world
15:57:24 Zakim has joined #html-a11y
15:57:26 Zakim, this will be 2119
15:57:26 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
15:57:27 Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
15:57:27 Date: 04 March 2010
15:59:07 Stevef has joined #html-a11y
15:59:16 MichaelC has changed the topic to:
15:59:48 Ben has joined #html-a11y
16:00:32 janina has joined #html-a11y
16:00:49 zakim, who's on the phone?
16:00:49 WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has not yet started, MichaelC
16:00:49 Zakim, call Mike
16:00:50 On IRC I see janina, Ben, Stevef, Zakim, RRSAgent, cyns, JF, Marco_Ranon, MikeSmithX, kliehm, eric_carlson, oedipus, davidb, MichaelC, trackbot
16:00:52 ok, MikeSmithX; the call is being made
16:00:54 zakim, call janina
16:00:54 ok, janina; the call is being made
16:01:00 zakim, this is 2119
16:01:01 ok, MichaelC; that matches WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM
16:01:06 Zakim, Mike is me
16:01:10 +MikeSmith; got it
16:01:15 zakim, ??P19 is probably Ben_Caldwell
16:01:18 +Ben_Caldwell?; got it
16:01:20 +Eric_Carlson
16:01:24 Zakim, mute me
16:01:30 MikeSmith should now be muted
16:01:30 zakim, IPCaller is Steve_Faulkner
16:01:36 +Steve_Faulkner; got it
16:01:55 Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
16:01:56 Chair: Janina_Sajka
16:01:56 agenda: this
16:01:56 agenda+ Actions Review
16:01:56 agenda+ reports from TF Subgroups (Media)
16:01:56 agenda+ Canvas Subteam Proposal
16:01:56 regrets+ Denis_Boudreau
16:01:58 +http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Mar/att-0014/canvaselement-issue74-feedback1.html
16:01:59 zakim, Steve_Faulkner is me
16:02:00 agenda+ Summary & Details Redux
16:02:02 agenda+ Resolved & Rejected Bugs Review http://www.w3.org/mid/1c8dbcaa1003021629r5cfe387amd61059424f9c539b@mail.gmail.com
16:02:02 +Stevef; got it
16:02:02 +Matt
16:02:05 agenda+ New Business
16:02:07 agenda+ next meetings, confirm date/time, choose scribe
16:02:09 agenda+ be done
16:02:11
16:02:14 +Cynthia_Shelly
16:02:36 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Mar/0071.html
16:02:40 regrets+ Jon_Gunderson
16:02:49 richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
16:03:10 "solomonic" summary change proposal: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/summary_element
16:03:13 +Rich
16:03:28 regrets+ Laura_Carlson
16:03:47 regrets+ Kelly_Ford
16:03:54 regrets+ Geoff_Freed
16:05:05 scribe: John_Foliot
16:05:09 scribeNick: JF
16:05:11 jf, http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/Teleconference_cheat_sheet
16:05:51 +??P30
16:06:47 zakim, ??P30 is Leif_Halvard_Silli
16:06:48 +Leif_Halvard_Silli; got it
16:07:01 +[Microsoft]
16:07:14 leif, "solomonic" summary change proposal: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/summary_element
16:07:25 zakim, Microsoft is Paul_Cotton
16:07:25 +Paul_Cotton; got it
16:07:57 paulc has joined #html-a11y
16:08:47 LeifHS has joined #html-a11y
16:08:53 action-2 due 1 April
16:08:53 ACTION-2 Deliver draft of change proposal for ARIA additions to HTML 5 by 2009-12-24 due date now 1 April
16:09:41 my name: Leif Halvard Silli
16:09:43 Cyns allow diversion for MSAA / ARIA
16:09:50 action-8: UAI TF has decided to allow for divergent relationships
16:09:50 ACTION-8 Follow up with IE team about whether implementers are willing to use parent/child/nesting relationships could be used in mappings logic notes added
16:10:05 If my stuttering continues, I could get my cell phone. It would take about 2-3 minutes to make that change.
16:10:06 Cyns beleives Action 8 is / could be closed
16:10:10 close action-8
16:10:10 ACTION-8 Follow up with IE team about whether implementers are willing to use parent/child/nesting relationships could be used in mappings logic closed
16:11:10 action-20 due 11 March
16:11:10 ACTION-20 Dig up history on column element due date now 11 March
16:11:11 chaals' imagemap proposal for CANVAS: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/Map4NotAdom
16:11:53 action-21: chaals' imagemap proposal for CANVAS: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/Map4NotAdom
16:11:53 ACTION-21 - coordinate concrete proposal for use of imagemap in CANVAS notes added
16:13:34 Janina: Concern that facilitators / email exchanges have gone far away from polite conversation and become attack like
16:13:43 keep personalities out of discussions
16:14:07 ask others honor that others have perspectives
16:14:24 focuse on technical issues, avoid judgements
16:15:20 + +20625aaaa
16:15:42 zakim, +206 is Dick_Bulterman
16:15:42 +Dick_Bulterman; got it
16:16:13 Canvas subgroup has offered a proposal to the tF
16:16:29 Chaals has a counter-proposal that he has submitted
16:16:47 i/Janina: Concern that/TOPIC: Sub-Group Updates/
16:16:53 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
16:17:07 Rich: still some issues surrounding ADOM
16:17:16 chaals' imagemap proposal for CANVAS: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/Map4NotAdom
16:17:49 Maciej suggests that by default the sub-tree navigation be keyboard accessible
16:17:59 i/due 1 April/TOPIC: Action Item Review/
16:18:02 canvas should be in keyboard navigation
16:18:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
16:18:15 else yu must make explicit statement
16:18:26 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2010JanMar/att-0265/canvaselement-issue74-feedback1.html
16:18:33 new modification emerged on Mondau cll
16:18:42 replace ADOM with Navsubtree
16:18:55 set to false to not include in keyboard navigation
16:19:01 s/Mondau/Monday/
16:19:11 over time you will never have to set it - will become default
16:19:18 s/cll/call/
16:20:08 (Richard reviews current proposal verbatum)
16:21:17 richard: Chaals proposal binds the image map to Canvas
16:21:39 needs to also deal with and addition of ARIA markup
16:22:01 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/Map4NotAdom
16:22:06 richard suggests that either proposal could then be used to make ally available
16:22:28 image mape would been seen as a navsubtree
16:22:40 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/canvasaccessibility
16:22:50 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/canvasaccessibility
16:23:21 yet another CP presented by SteveF
16:24:18 so group must decide do we want to proceed with the first proposal, Chaals proposal, or a combined proposal
16:24:40 -Janina
16:24:46 zakim, call janina-mobile
16:24:46 ok, janina; the call is being made
16:24:48 +Janina
16:24:57 the navsubtree proposal, in terms of change is rather small to HTML spec
16:25:34 Rich believes there is value in presenting both
16:25:56 Janina: how many changes will this add to the spec?
16:26:30 GJR notes that IMAGEMAP restoration proposal origanted with lachy, not chaals
16:26:30 Rich is unsure of feel of HTML WG to re-visit the old HTML4 areamap
16:26:36 q+
16:27:07 SteveF: FF has no support for @role on area elements
16:27:23 however DaveB is pushing for that
16:27:29 ack me
16:27:51 Chaals proposal uses elements. Those support roles, no?
16:28:32 history of re-instatement of area goes back a ways
16:28:38 chaals has joined #html-a11y
16:28:43 Rich: what is groups postion?
16:28:48 Leif, in current spec A doesn't take roles, but there's a bug on this
16:28:53 Janina: take some time and survey group
16:29:11 would HTML WG look kindly on imagemaps?
16:29:15 Cynthia, yes, but the discussed FIrefox support.
16:29:21 s/the/they
16:29:32 PaulC suggests that the answer would be No
16:29:54 q?
16:30:00 SteveF: thee has been a fair bit of silence on this topic at the larger group
16:30:33 Janina: a survey could ask "Should" HTML WG accept AreaMaps
16:30:46 Leif, as part of work item to do mappings, we intend to argue that A and most active elements should take roles.
16:30:49 Rich: don't restrict authors to areamaps
16:31:01 So, agree with Gregory, that they SHOULD
16:31:01 GJR thinks the sanest thing is to have 1 approach to CANVAS a11y
16:31:09 hixie suggests that you can have 2board(?) navigation
16:31:20 zakim, code?
16:31:20 the conference code is 2119 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), chaals
16:31:37 s/2board/2D/
16:31:47 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
16:32:12 s/(?)//
16:32:14 Rich: navsubtree clarrifys what to do with that content
16:32:17 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/04-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
16:32:31 +[IPcaller]
16:32:31 eventually navsubtree would become obsolete
16:32:49 zakim, ipcaller is me
16:32:49 +chaals; got it
16:33:09 strong plus 1 to SteveF's proposal to combine
16:34:05 Rich: if we present Chaals request, do we need to re-write the whole areamap part of spec?
16:34:27 Chaals: quite serious about making this proposal
16:34:38 PaulC: question of scope / work effort
16:34:58 if there is strong support for that change, will require detailed Change Proposal
16:35:18 Chaals: would like to take preliminary Question to working group
16:35:22 not a huge change
16:35:35 but is scattered a bit more throughout the larger document
16:35:41 so might take a bit more time
16:36:01 Rich: recaps - 2 things regarding navsubtree
16:36:16 read 2d proposal
16:36:24 s/2D navigation/2D Canvas navigation
16:36:28 says essentially that this would be an expected beahviour
16:36:40 elements in navsubtree should be in keyboard order
16:36:53 Chaals: that is what the spec says, argues that it is incorrect
16:37:26 Rich: apple also suggests that the navsubtree would be there
16:37:50 bring the 2 together as "the proposal", then work with Chaals to refine details
16:38:05 Chaals: 2 phases to his proposal
16:38:25 1) if you must render all of convas content as active when rendered, it has a constraining effect
16:38:38 might end up rendering stuff only relevent to canvas
16:38:56 if you use imagemap elements (no substantive change to spec, just editorial)
16:39:18 then you could use area elements inside of canvas, but don't have a rendering behaviour if cnvs is not rendered
16:39:23 already works
16:39:38 q+
16:39:39 not trying to cut off debate, but there are only 20 minutes left in call and we have yet to get to summary
16:39:43 one weakness is that the only way to create structure is to use extensive area (ARIA) additions
16:40:19 howeve establishes block elements - enables richer ability to add content
16:40:35 change proposl can be minimal in many ways
16:40:48 q?
16:40:53 why write a HTML5 change proposal to change an existn (HTML4) imagemap
16:40:59 but it could be done today
16:41:29 Rich: if we return to HTML4 imagemap, how does it impact on HTML5 spec (drag n drop for esample)
16:41:32 q+
16:41:52 Janina: we shoud find broader solutions that go beyond just a11y
16:42:02 Chaals: cannot see a particular impact on Drag n drop
16:42:12 thinks it would be valuable to advance to HTML Wg
16:42:21 impact on DOM?
16:42:53 Janina: important as this is a threshhold issue
16:43:01 seems both proposals can be combined
16:43:05 iron out issues
16:43:15 however, what would be acceptable to larger WG?
16:43:33 ask that question before moving foward?
16:43:42 Rich: pain points
16:43:54 HTML spec is inconsistent re: navsubtree
16:44:12 Q: how do people feel about the default behaviour that navsubtree be default behaviour
16:44:33 2) how do we feel about bringing the full HTML 4 imagemap back?
16:44:51 Chaals: HTML% imagemap model actually can support Chaals
16:44:53 proposal
16:45:00 however if we use html4 model
16:45:16 HTML5 spec doesn't yet work, HTML4 does
16:45:24 s/HTML%/HTML5/
16:45:31 thx greg
16:45:53 in functionality, both imagemaps proposals will work
16:45:53 ack cyns
16:46:05 Cyns: does either support more than live regions?
16:46:15 Chaals: essentially yes
16:46:23 in theory everything should work
16:46:57 in both imagemaps spec, the