16:00:50 RRSAgent has joined #swxg 16:00:50 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/03-swxg-irc 16:00:52 RRSAgent, make logs world 16:00:54 Zakim, this will be 7994 16:00:55 ok, trackbot; I see INC_SWXG()11:00AM scheduled to start now 16:00:55 Meeting: Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference 16:00:56 Date: 03 March 2010 16:01:04 Zakim, who's here? 16:01:04 I notice INC_SWXG()11:00AM has restarted 16:01:05 On the phone I see +41.79.200.aaaa, MacTed (muted), +049173900aabb 16:01:10 + +049173537aacc 16:01:23 +AnitaD 16:01:24 +??P44 16:01:25 +MIT-G451 16:01:31 Zakim, ??P44 is me 16:01:31 +tpa; got it 16:01:32 AnitaD has joined #swxg 16:01:36 Zakim, mute me 16:01:36 tpa should now be muted 16:01:44 +??P41 16:01:45 +??P45 16:02:02 Zakim, ??P41 is me 16:02:02 +melvster; got it 16:02:30 - +049173537aacc 16:02:32 +??P49 16:02:38 Zakim, ??P45 is hhalpin 16:02:38 +hhalpin; got it 16:02:52 Zakim, who's here? 16:02:52 On the phone I see +41.79.200.aaaa, MacTed (muted), +049173900aabb, AnitaD, tpa (muted), oshani (muted), melvster, hhalpin, ??P49 16:03:07 zakim, ??p45 is me 16:03:07 I already had ??P45 as hhalpin, yoshiaki 16:03:41 zakim, ??45 is me 16:03:41 sorry, yoshiaki, I do not recognize a party named '??45' 16:03:52 +DKA 16:03:59 hi 16:03:59 topic: Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2010-03-03T16:00-17:00GMT 16:04:05 can you chair actually today? 16:04:12 I am happy to scribe. 16:04:13 chair: hhalpin 16:04:19 Scribe: Dan 16:04:20 scribe: DKA 16:04:22 ScribeNick: DKA 16:04:23 scribenick: DKA 16:04:29 Zakim, who's here? 16:04:29 On the phone I see +41.79.200.aaaa, MacTed (muted), +049173900aabb, AnitaD, tpa (muted), oshani (muted), melvster, hhalpin, ??P49, DKA 16:04:48 PROPOSED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 24 February 2010 as a true record 16:04:52 Topic: Minutes 16:04:54 http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-swxg-minutes.html 16:05:11 zakim, ??P49 is me 16:05:11 +yoshiaki; got it 16:05:13 +1 16:05:13 +1 16:05:14 +1 16:05:19 +1 16:05:20 +1 16:05:21 APPROVED: SWXG WG Weekly -- 24 February 2010 as a true record 16:05:30 PROPOSED: to meet again Wed. March 10th: Social APIs and Mobile Widgets: Thomas Roessler on DAP, Scott Wilson on OpenSocial Shindig, and Robin Berjon and Marcos Carecas on W3C Widgets. 16:05:44 Harry: Next week - interesting week - there's been a lot of talk of OpenSocial and its connection to w3c widgets. 16:05:59 ...current work in the Apache foundation might [be a bridge] 16:06:19 5:00UTC 16:06:22 Not 4:00UTC? 16:06:32 ... the issue is - because of everyone's schedule, they won't be able to come online until 5:00 pm UTC, not 4:00 UTC. 16:07:20 no 16:07:25 no 16:07:37 yes 16:07:39 -yoshiaki 16:07:41 +Carine 16:08:03 + +49.173.537.aadd 16:08:21 +FabGandon 16:08:26 +??P55 16:08:37 Zakim, ??P55 is hhalpin 16:08:37 +hhalpin; got it 16:08:45 no 16:08:51 yes 16:08:55 petef has joined #swxg 16:09:14 yes 16:09:19 Harry: are people familiar with w3c widgets and open social. 16:09:20 yes 16:09:30 ...we could do an intro session on opensocial and w3c widgets... 16:09:56 Dan: maybe we should just do it at 5:00 instead next week. 16:10:02 + +0797094aaee 16:10:12 zakim, aaee is me 16:10:12 +petef; got it 16:10:14 Harry: So should we have it at a special time next week - 17:00 UTC to 18:00 UTC 16:10:15 +1 16:10:16 Assuming 5:00 next is fine. 16:10:20 +1 16:10:37 Harry: That should be a one-off-move. 16:10:43 APPROVED: Move meeting to 17:00 UTC next week 16:10:49 I am very much looking forward to this call. 16:10:55 Topic: Action reminders. 16:10:55 topic: Action Reminders 16:11:12 - +49.173.537.aadd 16:11:38 not yet 16:11:38 [DONE] ACTION: mcarvalh to look at Contact API and put those in Google Doc 16:11:47 we will get something by end March 16:11:58 wasn't it the deadline we agreed? 16:12:04 [DONE] ACTION: Anita to draft XMPP and mobile notes and put them on wiki 16:12:05 Harry: Tim, use case stuff? Danbri and Dan, coordination proposal, Anita on XMPP, etc... 16:12:13 Dan: I will work on this. 16:12:52 Harry: I put the WBS questionnaire on there - about the importance of various social web standards - would appreciate answers. 16:13:00 [DONE] ACTION:hhalpin to make WBS survey on ranking future topics to be continued afterwards 16:13:22 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/43434/SocialWebLastHalfTopics/ 16:13:31 http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/43434/SocialWebLastHalfTopics/ 16:14:04 Topic: Tim's Pearls of Wisdom 16:15:08 oh hey, it's 5pm+ already 16:15:44 Dan: "architecture of social web based on linked data" was the headline proposal from Tim at Santa Clara f2f. 16:15:57 Zakim, what's the code? 16:15:57 the conference code is 7994 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), hhalpin 16:16:31 oshani has joined #swxg 16:16:33 slide 37 http://www.slideshare.net/fabien_gandon/semantics-in-social-networks 16:16:48 +TimBL 16:16:56 Dan: and there was a diagram (posted by Fabien above). 16:17:05 +??P1 16:17:08 zakim, ??P1 is danbri 16:17:08 +danbri; got it 16:17:10 + +95177aaff 16:17:29 zakim, aaff is me 16:17:29 +pchampin; got it 16:17:32 Fabien: rely on linked open data infrastructure. Transparent API for any rich client of app to access the profile of the user independently of how and where they are stored. 16:17:52 zakim, mute me 16:17:52 pchampin should now be muted 16:18:02 timbl has joined #swxg 16:18:16 #swxg on irc.w3.org port 6665 16:18:37 Zakim, who is on the call? 16:18:37 On the phone I see +41.79.200.aaaa, MacTed (muted), +049173900aabb, AnitaD, tpa (muted), oshani (muted), melvster, hhalpin, DKA, Carine, FabGandon, hhalpin.a, petef, TimBL, danbri, 16:18:41 ... pchampin (muted) 16:19:32 since there is nothing written down, we're happy to write it up for you! 16:19:57 Zakim, who is on the call? 16:19:57 On the phone I see +41.79.200.aaaa, MacTed (muted), +049173900aabb, AnitaD, tpa (muted), oshani (muted), melvster, hhalpin, DKA, Carine, FabGandon, hhalpin.a, petef, TimBL, danbri, 16:20:00 ... pchampin (muted) 16:20:20 http://www.w3.org/2010/Talks/0303-socialcloud-tbl 16:20:25 Tim: I've got a few slides and I wrote a "design issues" document... 16:20:28 yes 16:20:28 Yep. 16:20:36 can hear you 16:20:57 http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/CloudStorage.html 16:20:59 re http://www.w3.org/2010/Talks/0303-socialcloud-tbl/ is there an url for the full no-javascript view? 16:20:59 -pchampin 16:21:03 Got the slides up. 16:21:24 +pchampin 16:21:25 Tim: Starting with the talks... 16:21:35 zakim, mute me 16:21:35 pchampin should now be muted 16:21:38 from a glance, it looks like what i've been hoping oauth+atompub will give us... 16:22:50 Tim: Social networks are doing well but [disconnected...] 16:23:16 Tim: e.g. Twitter vs. Identi.ca 16:24:11 Tim: There are APIs but they are tweet-specific. 16:24:15 [slide 4] 16:24:22 notes that even the Tweets now have URIs so they can be forwarded... 16:24:24 [slide 5] 16:24:31 i.e. tweets as linked data 16:24:46 'APIs are poor, because the hide the nature of the underlying data' 16:24:48 bblfish has joined #swxg 16:26:32 Tim: APIs are poor because APIs hide the nature of the underlying data. This isn't scalable to new things. The Linked Data Way is to represent it as data. 16:26:51 +bblfish 16:26:52 wonders about access control and linked data 16:26:57 Tim: In a sane, clean design, the data is linked data and the access control list is linked data. 16:27:01 hi 16:27:22 Tim: ...so the data and the access control are examples of the same stuff... 16:27:22 as in how access control can *be* linked data, rather than a policy language operating over access control. 16:27:28 mischat has joined #swxg 16:27:48 Zakim, mute me 16:27:48 hhalpin should now be muted 16:27:55 Tim: And the access control for the data is controlled by this other access control resource... 16:28:12 what's the URL? 16:28:19 http://www.w3.org/2010/Talks/0303-socialcloud-tbl/#%285%29 16:28:23 Tim: So keep that architecture diagram in one window and follow along. 16:28:27 thanks :-) 16:28:44 i have them 16:29:05 http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/CloudStorage.html 16:29:32 Tim: So the design of this - going on to [slide 6]. 16:30:11 +cperey 16:30:15 http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/diagrams/social/acl-arch.png 16:30:18 q+ to ask about exact definition of webid:, does it assume user control of the URI? 16:30:20 Tim: I would like to build on the cool things the community has developed. WebID- FOAF+SSL, RDF, WebDAV, SPARQL Update, Widget libraries, Application Builders. 16:30:53 [Slide 7] 16:31:23 Tim: Access control: read, write and control... 16:31:32 can we get links to those apache modules? 16:31:36 cperey has joined #swxg 16:32:03 Tim: implementation has been written in an apache module[ of this kind of access control on top of] WebDAV. 16:32:08 http://twitpic.com/16eebm #w3c #tbl #tpac09 16:32:17 Apache module for authentication: http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2009/mod_authn_webid/ 16:32:32 MS-Author-Via: WevDAV 16:32:37 Apache module for authorization: http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2009/mod_authz_webid/ 16:32:38 MS-Author-Via: SPARQL 16:32:43 I think the access control is here: http://esw.w3.org/topic/WebAccessControl 16:32:48 Tim: There is a header that MS has used to tell their applications not to use front-page extensions. 16:33:17 header('MS-Author-Via: SPARQL'); 16:33:26 Tim: Idea is to use the HTTP link header to point to the access control list. 16:34:08 Tim: Someone can read it and write it and tweak it using SPARQL updates. 16:34:10 need a SPARQL update in C to make the implementation really work 16:34:40 [Slide 8] 16:35:15 -AnitaD 16:35:56 Tim: Web Groups - how do they work? - URIs - if I look up a group name, I get back a document which has the URIs of the people in the group. 16:36:08 q+ to mention foaf:membershipClass re Web Groups - defined groups by membership rules, not much usage yet 16:36:09 Tim: ...or I get back URIs of sub-groups... 16:36:25 Tim: There's a question of how much RDF processing do you want the system to do? 16:36:33 RDFS inference 16:36:51 s/RDF/RDFs/ 16:36:53 +AnitaD 16:37:30 Tim: You log on with a WebID - WebID tells you who user is pretending to be but can't be trusted. 16:38:07 Tim: You can imagine doing very complicated rule-based systems, but there is tremendous advantage on being really simple. 16:39:23 Tim: This will be an application-independent architecture. 16:40:18 Tim: So imagine you're designing Twitter. The first thing you need to create is a public list of tweets. We need conventions of generating URLs that won't clash with other applications. 16:40:41 ... you need to have an "incoming drop box" so when someone tweets about you, you can [be alerted]. 16:41:11 ... in a centralized application all links are automatically both ways. When I follow you on Twitter you know that because it's the same application. 16:41:23 ... in a distributed way, you need to duplicate this with messages. 16:42:02 ... Social networks [are] a partially public, partially controlled view of [their activities.] 16:42:38 ... cross-application is valuable. [Allowing other applications to access all this data]... creates an app market for this data. 16:43:18 ... they should be portable but should not have to each make their own data space. This architecture allows them to work in a context where they are using data which is being produced and managed by other applications. 16:43:22 -AnitaD 16:43:47 increasing innovation in apps over open space is a good business case. 16:43:54 +AnitaD 16:44:02 ... When we have this open system and open linked data architecture, we will see a [jump] in innovation in these apps. 16:44:05 q? 16:44:06 ? 16:44:07 _________________________________ 16:44:07 ack danbri 16:44:07 danbri, you wanted to ask about exact definition of webid:, does it assume user control of the URI? and to mention foaf:membershipClass re Web Groups - defined groups by membership 16:44:11 ... rules, not much usage yet 16:44:15 ack danbri 16:44:18 [slide talk ends] 16:45:03 A WebID is a a URI for a person which can be used for single sign-on 16:45:07 Danbri: WebID - I have a mixed sense of what a WebID is. Is it a euphemism for a URI? Or is it a specific technology? 16:45:12 using foaf+ssl 16:45:28 thought the same ID could be both 16:45:30 Tim: A WebID is specifically a FOAF+SSL ID. It's an alternative to an openID. 16:45:43 q+ 16:45:53 rather the OpenId could be the foaf:homepage where the WebId is described 16:46:10 Tim: I can imagine there will be WebID you get because you visit a web site and you have control over it and you will have WebIDs for specific reasons - e.g. a WebID for W3C or for your business. 16:46:37 Danbri: If I copy your FOAF file and put it on my website. It still says true things about you - is it a webid? 16:47:04 Tim: No - when you look up a WebID it gives you a public key. And when you look up that [FOAF] file it will give you the wrong public key. 16:47:22 The certificate and the FOAF file are cross-linked 16:47:48 It's a WebId from the users point of view because a ID selector will pop up asing him which ID he wants to choose. This is what users will remember 16:47:59 Danbri: Second question - one of your slides you talk about groups. In FOAF we have [a mechanism] for this. 16:48:04 Tim: Is a group a class? 16:48:15 Danbri: No it's related to a class... 16:48:22 Tim: That's a design issue. 16:48:42 Keep it simple --> the group is the class 16:49:01 Tim: The question of whether you want a group to have a class or be a class... 16:49:57 :-) 16:50:16 A class is not set 16:50:23 so I think it's ok 16:51:26 apache code url? 16:51:41 I think the url is on foaf+ssl wiki 16:51:45 q? 16:51:47 did you want the apache_mod URIs? 16:51:53 ack hh 16:51:58 zakim, unmute me 16:51:58 hhalpin should no longer be muted 16:51:59 oshani++ 16:52:18 <#ThisGroup> is rdf:type of Joe, Fred, Albert. 16:52:29 oshani++ 16:52:36 Harry: 2 quick questions. I think the concept is good and I want to make it part of the final report. But 2 critiques from some working on the open stack. 16:52:52 You can have as many certificates as you want 16:53:16 yes, but how do you conveniently create one when you need it? 16:53:28 ... first problem with certificates - they vary between machines, different devices, if I go to an Internet cafe how can I use my certificate... So this is in support of the username/password. 16:53:29 (ben laurie) 16:53:36 you have a password or one time password on the Identity Provider site 16:53:51 so a one-time password would be the way to go here? 16:54:43 BBlfish: You have an identity provider site - your openID home page - you have a password or you have it able to send you a one-time password to your mobile phone - and then you can create a new certificate which you can set the TTL for - 16:55:02 so a one-time OpenID-style login would create the certificate...could we just have the certificate then automatically put through to other apps with minimal user-intervention? 16:55:22 ... so if you're in an Internet cafe you can set up a new certificate for only an hour... You can have as many certs as you want and you can disable certs just by removing the public key from your profile. 16:55:43 a little hard to explain to my mother, but technically sound, yes :) 16:55:53 Tim: If the thing is set up to use public-key cryptography then it's easier to down-grade it to openID like systems and you can cross-link OpenID and WebIDs. 16:56:15 ... of course going into an Internet cafe and logging into your common provider is [low security]. 16:56:35 so Google says, single-sign on us with us and trust us :) 16:56:38 ... SSO means you can do a lot of damage with just one login. 16:57:47 Tim: When you're at the bank, typlically you can look at your statement but then [an extra level of security is requried] when you want to make a payement. 16:58:07 Tim: "These are two versions of Harry - the strong and the weak one." 16:58:18 openid has some specs in this direction - http://openid.net/specs/openid-assertion-quality-extension-1_0-03.html 16:58:32 Harry: 2nd question - about APIs and data formats - 16:58:39 ... we need to have a good answer. 16:59:00 yes, one could have some interesting reasoning engines that work out the level of security someone has, given how they have logged in, if their webid is http, or https... 16:59:18 ... I agree it's better if you want control of your data and have infinite descriptive power a URI is as good as it gets. On the other hand, some developers just want a string name - a first name 16:59:32 ... and "you're forcing me to do all this work." 16:59:33 RDFHTTPRequest and a great RDF API 17:00:07 ... If you start mixing up the cloud with linked data then it starts getting out of hand for developers. The linked data community needs to answer these questions... 17:00:23 no definitely doesn't devalue it 17:00:30 Tim: there is a cloud - web services - that people are using - but it doesn't devalue the linked data cloud. 17:00:32 http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/wlg/3005 'Amazon has both SOAP and REST interfaces to their web services, and 85% of their usage is of the REST interface.' 17:00:37 we just need to make it as easy-to-use Linked Data as possible 17:00:41 (let's not get bogged down on soap vs rest) 17:00:44 (ah, good pointer danbri!) 17:01:02 (maybe back to API vs. Linked Data format issue) 17:01:23 Tim: You should just be able to ask a question by a very simple query in javascript ... 17:01:39 user = weblogin(); name=user.foaf:name 17:02:10 ldQuery 17:02:10 -tpa 17:02:25 Sorry but I actually have to leave the call right now... :( 17:02:31 Hope someone else can take over scribing... 17:02:50 any more questions? 17:03:01 Thanks Tim! 17:03:14 Very highly enriched information. 17:03:25 Ok, thanks for coming ... sprry the note isn't finished yet 17:04:01 Also wonder how this interoperates with OneSocialWeb XMPP-based architecture... 17:04:03 thanks 17:04:04 thanks! 17:04:05 thanks timbl 17:04:06 thanks! 17:04:06 thanks! 17:04:09 But this is too big a quetion for today. 17:04:10 bye for now! 17:04:13 thanks 17:04:13 -DKA 17:04:14 we normally ask aout role of w3c 17:04:16 thanks!! 17:04:20 Yes, that would have been a good question... 17:04:24 oh, good point! 17:04:31 TimBL, if you can answer this one :) 17:05:29 - +049173900aabb 17:05:32 TimBL: W3C is engaging community in general. 17:05:33 we've invited them to calls and TPAC :) 17:05:41 ... and invite them to TPAC. 17:06:04 http://www.w3.org/News/2009#entry-8674 fits in? 17:07:34 -cperey 17:07:48 Zakim, who is on the call? 17:07:48 On the phone I see +41.79.200.aaaa, MacTed (muted), oshani (muted), melvster, hhalpin, Carine, FabGandon, hhalpin.a, petef, TimBL, danbri, pchampin (muted), bblfish, AnitaD 17:10:03 It isn't ready yet, don't review it until we have it more finishde 17:10:05 -AnitaD 17:12:45 but the problem is that with most of these Social APIs, and even W3C DAP API, we have these descriptive features mied in 17:12:58 -FabGandon 17:12:58 good point 17:13:05 makes sense 17:14:05 big deal 17:14:34 take care timbl! 17:15:03 ACTION: hhalpin to send Team a simple e-mail overview for Social Web API 17:15:03 Created ACTION-132 - Send Team a simple e-mail overview for Social Web API [on Harry Halpin - due 2010-03-10]. 17:15:17 mischat has joined #swxg 17:15:21 s/API/XG 17:15:49 great 17:15:51 -TimBL 17:15:51 bye 17:15:55 -danbri 17:15:58 -oshani 17:15:58 -bblfish 17:16:03 bye all 17:16:07 thanks 17:16:07 bye all! 17:16:07 -petef 17:16:09 bye 17:16:11 -Carine 17:16:13 -MacTed 17:16:14 -hhalpin 17:16:22 RRSAgent, draft minutes 17:16:22 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/03-swxg-minutes.html hhalpin 17:16:25 trackbot, end meeting 17:16:25 Zakim, list attendees 17:16:25 As of this point the attendees have been +41.79.200.aaaa, MacTed, +049173900aabb, +049173537aacc, AnitaD, tpa, oshani, melvster, hhalpin, DKA, yoshiaki, Carine, +49.173.537.aadd, 17:16:26 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 17:16:26 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/03-swxg-minutes.html trackbot 17:16:27 RRSAgent, bye 17:16:27 I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/03-swxg-actions.rdf : 17:16:27 ACTION: hhalpin to send Team a simple e-mail overview for Social Web API [1] 17:16:27 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/03/03-swxg-irc#T17-15-03 17:16:28 ... FabGandon, +0797094aaee, petef, TimBL, danbri, +95177aaff, pchampin, bblfish, cperey