19:46:27 RRSAgent has joined #ssn 19:46:27 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/02-ssn-irc 19:46:29 RRSAgent, make logs world 19:46:29 Zakim has joined #ssn 19:46:31 Zakim, this will be 7769 19:46:31 ok, trackbot; I see INC_SSN()3:00PM scheduled to start in 14 minutes 19:46:32 Meeting: Semantic Sensor Network Incubator Group Teleconference 19:46:32 Date: 02 March 2010 19:46:42 agenda+ Roll call 19:47:00 agenda+ Presentation on the current alignment work 19:47:08 agenda+ Measurement, accuracy, observation record, device 19:47:16 agenda+ AOB 19:47:22 Chair: Holger 19:47:33 Regrets: Manfred, Arthur, Kevin 19:51:48 Danh_DERI has joined #ssn 19:53:01 INC_SSN()3:00PM has now started 19:53:08 + +26431aaaa 19:53:43 + +36.2.32.aabb 19:53:43 kelsey has joined #SSN 19:54:08 zakim, who's on the phone? 19:54:08 On the phone I see +26431aaaa, +36.2.32.aabb 19:54:21 laurent_oz has joined #ssn 19:54:26 zakim, +36.2.32.aabb is me 19:54:26 +Holger; got it 19:54:45 zkim,+25431aaa is me 19:55:15 + +1.206.662.aacc 19:55:39 zakim, +1.206.662.aacc is me 19:55:39 +kelsey; got it 19:55:55 +[IPcaller] 19:56:24 zakim, IPcaller is me 19:56:24 +Payam; got it 19:56:59 kerry has joined #ssn 19:57:08 michael has joined #ssn 19:58:02 +[IPcaller] 19:58:17 zakim, [IPcaller] is me 19:58:17 +michael; got it 19:59:09 +[IPcaller] 19:59:26 zakim, IPCaller is me 19:59:26 +laurent_oz; got it 20:00:12 +kerry 20:02:18 + +1.716.688.aadd 20:02:48 zakim, who's on the phone? 20:02:48 On the phone I see +26431aaaa, Holger, kelsey, Payam, michael, laurent_oz, kerry, +1.716.688.aadd 20:02:58 +[IPcaller] 20:03:19 -[IPcaller] 20:03:47 +??P8 20:04:37 + +1.937.775.aaee 20:05:08 scox has joined #ssn 20:05:36 krzysztof_j has joined #ssn 20:05:38 agenda? 20:06:10 cory has joined #ssn 20:06:31 +[IPcaller] 20:06:45 zakim, +[IPcaller] is me 20:06:45 sorry, krzysztof_j, I do not recognize a party named '+[IPcaller]' 20:07:26 zakim, [Ipcaller] is me 20:07:26 +krzysztof_j; got it 20:09:12 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/ssn/wiki/Generate_Meeting_Minutes#Scribe_duties 20:09:25 http://www.w3.org/2008/04/scribe.html 20:09:46 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/ssn/wiki/Generate_Meeting_Minutes#During_the_meeting 20:10:10 ScribeNick: kerry 20:10:20 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/ssn/wiki/images/8/8f/SSN-XG-Semantic-Markup-3March2010.pdf 20:10:35 Some interesting (housekeeping?) news - pre-DIS review of ISO 19156 (Observations and Measurements v2.0) has been completed. Will be passed from TC 211 to ISO Geneva any day 20:11:08 topic: semantic markup technique options: presentation by Laurent 20:13:16 Laurent: definition -- extended to suit rdfa: points to any type of thing that can be an element in an ontology 20:13:55 Laurent: rdfa can do this -- not just tbox material 20:15:08 Laurent: e.g . xml, service descriptions (wsdl), xsd, REST services, html, even rdf itself 20:16:30 scox has joined #ssn 20:16:31 Laurent: 3 types of techniques: 1. link to content managed elsewhere, (as xlink in ogc) : "normal" annnotation that might be "semantic" 20:16:56 Note that OGC is moving from URN to http URIs for system identifiers. e.g. see http://www.opengis.net/def/ from where you can navigate to parallel GML and RDF representations of 'definitions' or 'concepts' 20:17:10 laurent: 2. annotate a service description e.g. sawsdl or hrest, lifts into rdf 20:18:05 Laurent: 3: process the content to add annotation for rdf in html or ontology 20:18:47 The RDF was generated from the GML using a simple XSLT. 20:19:00 laurent_oz: awkward mixture of xml, html,rdf: confusing and difficult for validation tools 20:20:22 The RDF was generated from the GML using a simple XSLT. 20:21:39 laurent_oz: example of lifting data:(method 2) . Annotation refers to a "lifting script" usually xslt, a W3c recommendation?. Can be done throughout the fil, but needs user scritps to transalte throughout to rdfa 20:22:06 laurent_oz: in some places is easy 20:22:30 scox: butt in -- refer to chat comments 20:24:09 laurent_oz: e.g annotation using sawsdl liftng script (does something different - i missed it). The annotation links the wsdl or xml to ontolgy class as a "model reference". 20:24:11 SM_RIT has joined #ssn 20:25:25 laurent_oz: there is also a lowering script. And you can translate the xml itself into rdf. could move *all* the wsdl content into rdf this way 20:26:47 laurent_oz if you want to transalte a resful service (html) its not the same: e.g. 2 ways -1 microformats or 2 rdfa 20:27:56 laurent_oz (aside) yes , the "hrest" approach is used by SA-REST 20:28:52 krp has joined #ssn 20:29:28 scox has joined #ssn 20:29:52 laurent_oz: if you move all the service definition into the rdf form then you use an existing service ontology such as sa-rest or wsmo-lite 20:31:21 amit: sa-rest has evolved an can be used for any resources, not just services -- should also be considered. small differences with h-rest. 20:31:54 lamit: sa-rest is alive and is an altertantive to sawsdl 20:32:55 How can I stop the IRC from kicking me off? 20:32:59 laurent_oz:(accelerating_) lifting from html to rdf : has defined annotation for just about everything 20:34:02 laurent_oz: lifting xml to "semantic urns" : use xlink ogc-like to produce the rdf result, implies conventions for use of xlink 20:34:29 Simon, error message is 'Ping timeout' - probably a network problem?! 20:34:54 laurent_oz: refer to AOW paper : rdfa has set the bar higher because i can cover all of OWL and can be used by developers in advance: not required scripts by users 20:35:57 laurent_oz: xlink in ogc is used by every other schema: but rdfa can be in many more places than xlink 20:36:34 laurent_oz: see short comparison in aow paper of xlink vs rdfa (rdfa is more powerful) 20:37:45 laurent_oz: use of xlink on ogc: can only be used in leaf property elements - something like an include mechanism -- tells you to go elsewhere for more 20:38:31 laurent_oz: matching the ogc xlink convention and semantic web needs is tricky as you can't tell the pupose of the xlink 20:39:05 laurent_oz:ogc usually uses element and attribute simply -- but attributes are hard 20:39:38 I don't understand if the comment that xlink can only be on props is meant to highlight a limitation? 20:40:17 laurent_oz: example:xlink usually points to an ontology instance (a urn) . kyzystof has a varaint using xlink and sawsdl together 20:40:44 In fact the correct comparison should be with RDF - OGC XML (GML) documents are isomorphic with RDF by design; xlink:href == rdf:resource 20:41:53 scox has joined #ssn 20:42:04 laurent_oz: this completes summary of techniques: 20:43:18 scox: (faded out) ..was developed as an xml rep of rdf as it was in 2000. whether links should point to classes or individuals is not clear in rdf either 20:43:53 laurent_oz: agreed. using xml and ontolgy languages together may be breaking new ground here 20:44:17 laurent_oz: what should we deliver for semantic annotation? 20:45:41 laurent_oz: focus on ogc swe standards: xg needs to liase with other groups w3c web service activity) as is not a striclty ssn issue. take it to the TAG? 20:46:12 laurent_oz: may be better new ways inspired by rdfa -- beyond the scope of the xg. 20:47:26 laurent_oz:want to use OGC and provide guidance on using the ontology. Hard to write a w3c doc addressed to OGC community. should be an ogc discussion paper? 20:47:59 laurent_oz: lackof semantic markup examples out there and in the ssn-xg 20:48:07 scox has joined #ssn 20:48:36 SHould be OGC 'Best Practice' (policy) not DIscussion Paper (only FYI) 20:49:27 laurent_oz: wish-list:if you use sawsl model ref and xlink at the same time: need help. do we need to (lost it..), refer krz's xomments last week about sapience 20:50:23 Krzysztof_j: how would a new ogc dis paper differ from the one laready out there? 20:51:12 laurent_oz: more detatil: e.g what is allowed and what is not. the w3c side brings a different view. 20:51:34 There is a big lack of xlink implementations in the world 20:51:41 xlink is a failed standard 20:52:06 The problem is: even though it has failed, it is needed! 20:52:28 krz: would add to confusion -- maue and cory's versions/appers. do not want another paper -- just focus on sensors and build some experience. we don't know how to use them from experience 20:53:14 laurent_oz: we have to ensure that our output reaches the ogc community 20:54:02 But remember that OGC is rooted more in structured-data, so XML Schema validation is seen as an important tool. 20:55:10 laurent_oz: wrapup : more examples of semantic markup (as in the draft final report - cory) sawsdl and model reference at same time. are there other examples like this? is this a new use unlike current ogc and sawsdl approaches 20:55:36 laurent_oz: is it possible to build validators for such a standard 20:56:34 laurent_oz: do we need model ref and domain ref annotation ? need more examples of needs to drive this. 20:57:39 holger: ask scox to summarise his interjections 20:59:10 scox: can say why ogc is done this way.: gml and followers were developed as rdf before rdf in xml stabilised. also lean towards object modleeing and validation becuase work fom structured 20:59:30 data unlike semantic web community (e.g. open world assumptions) 21:00:41 scox: own work is encouraging ogc to adopt more sw technologies. will move away frm gml and xlink for "semantic " things -- see my link to ogc website 21:00:48 +q 21:01:15 laurent_oz: hard to find doco on where ogc is going with semantics 21:01:27 scox has joined #ssn 21:02:02 I'm pushing OGC to be more flexible, and use RDF technologies where appropriate (e.g. defs) 21:02:11 laurent_oz: 2 approaches to updating ogc tech 1. update nothing but do it outside e.g.grddl. 2. new ogc services to do the semantic stuff 21:02:15 but stick with XMl technologies for structured data 21:02:56 There are some interesting grey areas in between - e.g. CRS definitions, which play the role of semantic resources but are highly structured in terms of the information they need to provide 21:03:16 laurent_oz: acknowledge change in the way things are done now -- uing rdfa like the rest of the world is going 21:03:53 scox: agree guidance is needed: through compelling examples 21:03:53 ack krzysztof_j 21:04:37 isn't rdfa starting from the premise that the base document is HTML? 21:04:53 krzystof_j: in 3 years we will be using sw stuff all the way? maybe "annotation" will be an outdated idea 21:05:04 What if the base documents are _data_ (XML, not web pages) 21:05:33 laurent_oz: agrees, maybe. evolution for all standards orgnaisations , not just ogc 21:06:38 do you see rdfa replace (failed) xlink? 21:06:50 +q 21:06:50 laurent_oz: yes rdfa is mainy for html but it changes the level of automation : has really superseded all the previous methods based on many use cases 21:07:24 q 21:08:01 krzysztof_j: thin if linked data as everything: semantics plays a much more major role, but don't want to buy in to the ontology of he person who built the data: argument for spearating the semantics from the the data 21:08:03 ack Payam 21:08:47 payam: confused -- are we trying to annotate sensor data? descriptions and o&m. we should start there. integraqtion with others comes later 21:09:19 Linked data will not make structured data go away 21:09:20 laurent_oz: both annotate data and annotate a sevice to produce semantic-rich data. these are mixed. 21:09:27 it just makes it visible in the web 21:09:44 payam: anotatng a service is not our business -- only annotating the data as i see it 21:10:47 laurent_oz: we need to clarify this objective..... both uses cases have been discussed in this group 21:10:47 isn"t linked data structured data? 21:11:40 - +1.716.688.aadd 21:11:43 payam: wants to annotate data: services are out of scope 21:12:41 holger: thanks to laurent for presentation. 21:13:04 My apologies for next week - I'll be at OGC TC in Rome 21:13:42 Linked data is usually interpreted as RDF 21:14:44 and while RDF is 'structured' it is not easily validatable 21:15:09 kerry: has put phenoet architeture on the wiki under "communities" link 21:15:23 kerry: plan for meeting times - will go in email 21:15:39 holger: close and thansk. 21:15:41 -kelsey 21:15:42 - +1.937.775.aaee 21:15:44 -michael 21:15:44 bye 21:15:45 - +26431aaaa 21:16:06 zakim, bye 21:16:06 leaving. As of this point the attendees were +26431aaaa, Holger, kelsey, Payam, michael, laurent_oz, kerry, +1.716.688.aadd, +1.937.775.aaee, krzysztof_j 21:16:06 Zakim has left #ssn 21:16:20 rrsagent, make log public 21:16:34 rrsagent, draft minutes 21:16:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/02-ssn-minutes.html Holger 21:16:43 rrsagent, bye 21:16:43 I see no action items