IRC log of rif on 2010-03-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:44:11 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rif
15:44:11 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/02-rif-irc
15:44:27 [ChrisW]
zakim, this will be rif
15:44:27 [Zakim]
ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 16 minutes
15:44:32 [ChrisW]
Chair: Chris Welty
15:44:45 [ChrisW]
Meeting: RIF Telecon 2-Mar-2010
15:45:50 [ChrisW]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Mar/0000.html
15:46:28 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:46:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/02-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
15:46:48 [ChrisW]
zakim, clear agenda
15:46:48 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
15:46:51 [Harold]
Harold has joined #rif
15:46:56 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Admin
15:47:01 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Liason
15:47:08 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Action Review
15:47:20 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Public Comments
15:47:34 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Moving specs to PR
15:47:48 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Implementations
15:47:58 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Test cases
15:48:04 [ChrisW]
agenda+ AOB
15:48:14 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:48:20 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:58:16 [LeoraMorgenstern]
LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
16:01:07 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
16:01:30 [AdrianP]
AdrianP has joined #rif
16:01:40 [Zakim]
+ +1.646.374.aaaa
16:01:41 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Odd ... I have been told I'm the first participant.
16:02:01 [LeoraMorgenstern]
zakim, aaaa is me
16:02:04 [Zakim]
+Sandro
16:02:08 [Zakim]
+ +aabb
16:02:10 [Zakim]
+LeoraMorgenstern; got it
16:02:14 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
16:02:18 [ChrisW]
zakim, ibm is temporarily me
16:02:18 [Zakim]
+ChrisW; got it
16:02:39 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:02:39 [Zakim]
On the phone I see LeoraMorgenstern, Sandro, +aabb, ChrisW
16:02:44 [Zakim]
+??P12
16:02:51 [AdrianP]
Zakim, ??P12 is me
16:02:52 [DaveReynolds]
DaveReynolds has joined #rif
16:02:54 [Zakim]
+AdrianP; got it
16:02:54 [ChrisW]
zakim, aabb is Harold
16:02:54 [Zakim]
+Harold; got it
16:03:46 [ChrisW]
scribe: LeoraMorgenstern
16:03:53 [ChrisW]
scribenick: LeoraMorgenstern
16:03:58 [Zakim]
+Hassan_Ait-Kaci
16:04:07 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
16:04:10 [ChrisW]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2010Feb/att-0032/2010-02-16-rif-minutes.html
16:04:16 [ChrisW]
Minutes from last telecon
16:04:21 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is talking?
16:04:32 [Zakim]
ChrisW, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ChrisW (31%), LeoraMorgenstern (24%)
16:04:37 [sandro]
zakim, who is talking?
16:04:41 [mdean]
mdean has joined #rif
16:04:48 [Zakim]
sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: LeoraMorgenstern (29%)
16:04:53 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:04:53 [Zakim]
On the phone I see LeoraMorgenstern, Sandro, Harold, ChrisW, AdrianP, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, [IPcaller]
16:04:59 [LeoraMorgenstern]
ok, do you hear me now?
16:05:04 [Zakim]
+Mike_Dean
16:05:27 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: approve minutes of last meeting
16:05:32 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris, did you set the agenda item?
16:05:36 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: approve minutes of last meeting
16:05:57 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Ok -- otherwise it messes up the numbering.
16:06:04 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
16:06:04 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:06:15 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Nothing new in liaison
16:07:01 [LeoraMorgenstern]
sandro, I can't hear you --- except that you had a call with Axel about the SPARQL regime?
16:08:07 [ChrisW]
sandro: been participating in telecons with SPARQL wg about "entailment regimes" for RIF in SPARQL
16:09:07 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
16:09:07 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Action Review" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:10:21 [Zakim]
+LeoraMorgenstern.a
16:10:32 [Zakim]
-LeoraMorgenstern
16:11:56 [LeoraMorgenstern]
mikedean: needs to get an implementation report from Jeff Sherman
16:12:52 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Jeff Sherman did send a report on Feb. 16; notes that the implementation doesn't yet handle RDF and OWL.
16:13:04 [LeoraMorgenstern]
mikedean: not planning to add this for RIF at this point.
16:13:08 [Zakim]
+Gary
16:13:49 [LeoraMorgenstern]
mikedean: will add implementation report of SWRL-RIF translator
16:13:56 [ChrisW]
close action-951
16:13:56 [trackbot]
ACTION-951 Get implementation report for SIL closed
16:13:58 [LeoraMorgenstern]
close ACTION-951
16:13:58 [trackbot]
ACTION-951 Get implementation report for SIL closed
16:14:12 [MichaelKifer]
MichaelKifer has joined #rif
16:14:41 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Harold: has an action to draft reply to Riazinov
16:15:00 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Harold: this affects Christian as well.
16:15:09 [Zakim]
+MichaelKifer
16:15:14 [Harold]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Response_to_AR4
16:15:19 [csma]
csma has joined #rif
16:16:38 [sandro]
sandro: xml:lang makes no sense on anything but plain literals.
16:17:02 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Harold: problem with language tags on non-literal constants
16:17:19 [LeoraMorgenstern]
sandro: that's not valid.
16:17:27 [sandro]
chat
16:17:49 [Gary]
Gary has joined #rif
16:18:16 [LeoraMorgenstern]
sandro: chat is pronounced differently and has a different semantics in French and English, so it's understandable that you would want a language tag, but ...
16:18:18 [sandro]
I think we'd best follow RDF on this --- only PlainLiterals have languge tags.
16:18:51 [sandro]
(different semantics are not the point -- language tags are important for screen readers.)
16:19:28 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Oh, okay; I'll edit. But really,, would you never be interested in the semantics? How about, at least, the part of language?
16:19:42 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Close action-564
16:19:42 [trackbot]
ACTION-564 Finish PS to XML conversion based on LC BLD grammar closed
16:21:27 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: in actions that are completed but pending review, there are actions by Jos and by Axel.
16:21:43 [LeoraMorgenstern]
close action-920
16:21:43 [trackbot]
ACTION-920 Look at informal list mappings closed
16:22:03 [LeoraMorgenstern]
close action-914
16:22:03 [trackbot]
ACTION-914 Replace name, var, and dialect by ncname in all BNF grammars closed
16:22:10 [LeoraMorgenstern]
close action-862
16:22:10 [trackbot]
ACTION-862 Devise a "deep" equality test case closed
16:22:29 [LeoraMorgenstern]
close action-928
16:22:29 [trackbot]
ACTION-928 Update mappings section of DTB to resolve type promotion issue closed
16:22:45 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
16:22:45 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Public Comments" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:23:07 [ChrisW]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Public_Comments
16:23:54 [sandro]
action: chris to send response to Ian Horrocks
16:23:54 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-981 - Send response to Ian Horrocks [on Christopher Welty - due 2010-03-09].
16:24:46 [ChrisW]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Response_to_DM3
16:25:18 [LeoraMorgenstern]
action: chris to send DM3
16:25:18 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-982 - Send DM3 [on Christopher Welty - due 2010-03-09].
16:26:13 [Harold]
Christian already answer that public comment with:
16:26:13 [Harold]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-comments/2010Feb/0000.html
16:26:30 [LeoraMorgenstern]
okay, I'll close that action then.
16:27:36 [LeoraMorgenstern]
close action-982
16:27:37 [trackbot]
ACTION-982 Send DM3 closed
16:27:46 [ChrisW]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Response_to_WL2
16:28:28 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
16:28:28 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Moving specs to PR" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:28:55 [ChrisW]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Exit_Criteria
16:29:27 [ChrisW]
"To validate the Core specification, we merely want two systems which use the distinction about what is or is not in Core, such as Core document validators, or producers which can be set to never emit documents outside of Core. "
16:29:49 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: do we have any evidence that anyone has implemented this?
16:29:55 [sandro]
<silence>
16:30:42 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has joined #rif
16:30:42 [LeoraMorgenstern]
sandro: will start editing version of exit criteria that mentions best candidates
16:31:42 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: mike dean, does your implementation (get name) know whether something is in core?
16:32:36 [LeoraMorgenstern]
mikedean's implementation: silk (edit in)
16:33:19 [LeoraMorgenstern]
action: chris to ask Susan M whether her implementation can do this.
16:33:19 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-983 - Ask Susan M whether her implementation can do this. [on Christopher Welty - due 2010-03-09].
16:33:40 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: I don't know about IBM's J rules.
16:35:06 [sandro]
editing http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/CR_Exit
16:35:46 [LeoraMorgenstern]
sandro: not sure whether his rdf-rif translator will meet the above exit criterion.
16:36:31 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: Gary, what about OBR (from Oracle)? Do you check if it's in Core?
16:36:34 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Gary: No
16:36:46 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: hard to add?
16:37:04 [LeoraMorgenstern]
gary: won't happen for months.
16:37:23 [LeoraMorgenstern]
sandro: winds up being a priority for me, then.
16:37:54 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: best candidates are Christian's, Sandro's, & ?
16:38:09 [sandro]
riftr
16:38:23 [LeoraMorgenstern]
action:sandro to send riftr implementation report
16:38:28 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: have 2 BLD consumers
16:38:37 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: have 2 PR
16:38:52 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: have 2 PRD consumers
16:39:44 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: for BLD: Silk, ontobroker(partial), Iris
16:39:49 [sandro]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/CR_Exit
16:40:22 [LeoraMorgenstern]
and more from Sandro's table, linked above.
16:41:43 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: for Core, candidates are J rules, rifter, and nameless thing.
16:42:33 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: for DTB, J rules are going through slowly
16:42:49 [LeoraMorgenstern]
gary: mostly finished going through types
16:45:03 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: also RIFle from Luis Polo
16:45:09 [LeoraMorgenstern]
again, see link above
16:46:12 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: still missing OWL implementation
16:46:35 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: FLD implementation is from Michael Kifer (Core Answer Set Programming Dialect)
16:47:10 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: waiting for an implementation from mike dean, coming shortly, within a week or two.
16:47:40 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: biq questions: satisfying Core and OWL-RL requirements.
16:47:48 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: also must discuss changes to documents.
16:49:01 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: Core has been changed only once since publication, by Harold. Needs to be logged in the appendix.
16:50:13 [LeoraMorgenstern]
harold: is taking care of that now.
16:50:49 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: BLD: many changes since publication, by Harold and Michael, to the xml, overview.
16:51:26 [LeoraMorgenstern]
action: michael to update change log on BLD, coordinating with Harold.
16:51:26 [trackbot]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - michael
16:51:26 [trackbot]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. msintek, mkifer, merdmann)
16:51:52 [LeoraMorgenstern]
action: mkifer to update change log for BLD, coordinating with Harold.
16:51:52 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-984 - Update change log for BLD, coordinating with Harold. [on Michael Kifer - due 2010-03-09].
16:52:01 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: DTB: Axel not here.
16:53:31 [LeoraM]
LeoraM has joined #rif
16:53:32 [sandro]
action: chris to get Jos to add changelog for SWC
16:53:32 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-985 - Get Jos to add changelog for SWC [on Christopher Welty - due 2010-03-09].
16:55:32 [Leora_M]
Leora_M has joined #rif
17:01:07 [Leora_M]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/UCR
17:02:59 [sandro]
I like the Venn diagram in there, and wonder about using the one I did for RuleML somewhere.... http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/1105-ruleml/rif-venn-3.png
17:04:47 [AdrianP]
Leora has reorganized it since the last publication
17:05:05 [Leora_M]
leora: have re-organized UCR; woudl still need to add actual RIF rules to examples. Can't do until Mar. 14, and would spend max 1 week doing so.
17:06:36 [AdrianP]
* Leora, there seem to be some formatting errors in the new UCR version, sometimes </div> appears
17:06:59 [Leora_M]
Adrian, you are right. This happened when I was trying to add in some PRD syntax for a use case.
17:07:21 [Leora_M]
I just realized when I looked again this morning. Well, I re-remembered: this happened in October, and I got sidetracked then.
17:07:28 [Leora_M]
That is one of the many things I have to fix.
17:08:10 [Leora_M]
missing Dave's whole conversation.
17:08:22 [Leora_M]
chris: overview doc: has not changed.
17:08:50 [Leora_M]
chris: We'll publish it as a note, or wait?
17:09:50 [Leora_M]
sandro: we'll probably need to make some changes to overview as we get closer to publication.
17:10:22 [Leora_M]
chris: We'll have weekly telecons in March for the P
17:10:29 [Leora_M]
chris: for the PR push.
17:10:47 [Leora_M]
chris: Next week we'll vote on all resolutions mentioned in this week's agenda.
17:11:01 [Leora_M]
chris: Default: keep at risk features unless there's a reason not to .
17:12:59 [Leora_M]
chris: we'll vote on them next week. Objectors should say something about it in next week.
17:13:03 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
17:13:03 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "Test cases" taken up [from ChrisW]
17:13:08 [ChrisW]
zakim, list agenda
17:13:08 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
17:13:09 [Zakim]
7. Test cases [from ChrisW]
17:13:09 [Zakim]
8. AOB [from ChrisW]
17:13:42 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has left #rif
17:13:43 [ChrisW]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Constant_Equivalence_1
17:15:32 [Zakim]
-Harold
17:15:59 [sandro]
lets get rif of the rif:iri bit.
17:16:05 [Zakim]
-MichaelKifer
17:16:31 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: Accept RDF_Combination_Constant_Equivalence_1 test case
17:16:41 [DaveReynolds]
+1
17:16:45 [ChrisW]
+1
17:16:46 [sandro]
+1
17:16:51 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: Accept RDF_Combination_Constant_Equivalence_1 test case
17:16:51 [mdean]
+1
17:17:03 [ChrisW]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Constant_Equivalence_2
17:17:05 [AdrianP]
+1
17:17:49 [sandro]
<Const type="&xs;string">this is a plain literal</Const>
17:18:00 [AdrianP]
my +1 was delayed and on the previous test case
17:18:59 [sandro]
sandro: This only holds under D-entailment not Simple entailment.
17:22:08 [sandro]
sandro: Uh oh.... It looks like SWC
17:22:49 [sandro]
SWC is wrong here....
17:24:23 [sandro]
looking in http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-plain-literal/
17:24:46 [sandro]
sandro: I think SWC just didn't get updated....
17:24:53 [Leora_M]
dave: See table 1, line 2 of SWC
17:25:12 [sandro]
action: sandro to bring up http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Constant_Equivalence_2 with Jos
17:25:12 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-986 - Bring up http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/RDF_Combination_Constant_Equivalence_2 with Jos [on Sandro Hawke - due 2010-03-09].
17:25:31 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item?
17:25:31 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, ChrisW.
17:25:34 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
17:25:34 [Zakim]
agendum 8. "AOB" taken up [from ChrisW]
17:25:42 [AdrianP]
bye
17:25:45 [Zakim]
-Hassan_Ait-Kaci
17:25:49 [Zakim]
-Gary
17:25:51 [Zakim]
-DaveReynolds
17:25:51 [Zakim]
-Mike_Dean
17:25:52 [Zakim]
-AdrianP
17:25:53 [ChrisW]
zakim, list attendees
17:25:53 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been +1.646.374.aaaa, Sandro, +aabb, LeoraMorgenstern, ChrisW, AdrianP, Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, Mike_Dean, DaveReynolds, Gary, MichaelKifer
17:25:57 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make logs public
17:26:07 [ChrisW]
Regrets: StellaMitchell
17:26:13 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:26:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/02-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
17:31:09 [Zakim]
-LeoraMorgenstern.a
17:31:48 [Zakim]
-ChrisW
17:31:50 [Zakim]
-Sandro
17:31:51 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
17:31:52 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.646.374.aaaa, Sandro, +aabb, LeoraMorgenstern, ChrisW, AdrianP, Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, Mike_Dean, DaveReynolds, Gary, MichaelKifer
17:36:57 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has joined #rif
18:07:13 [MichaelKifer]
MichaelKifer has left #rif
18:21:22 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has joined #rif
18:55:06 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has left #rif