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Chatlog 2012-03-01
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14:51:57 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa 14:51:57 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/01-rdfa-irc 14:51:58 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 14:51:59 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfa 14:52:00 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332 14:52:00 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes 14:52:01 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Web Applications Working Group Teleconference 14:52:02 <trackbot> Date: 01 March 2012 14:56:27 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa 14:59:19 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started 14:59:21 <Zakim> +??P3 14:59:26 <manu1> zakim, I am ??P3 14:59:26 <Zakim> +manu1; got it 15:00:23 <niklasl> niklasl has joined #rdfa 15:01:09 <Zakim> +??P6 15:01:10 <Zakim> -??P6 15:01:10 <Zakim> +??P6 15:01:12 <Zakim> +??P8 15:01:21 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip 15:01:21 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made 15:01:23 <Zakim> +Ivan 15:01:27 <gkellogg> zakim, I am ??P6 15:01:27 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it 15:01:31 <niklasl> zakim, I am ??P8 15:01:31 <Zakim> +niklasl; got it 15:01:46 <scor> scor has joined #rdfa 15:02:38 <Zakim> +scor 15:04:05 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software 15:04:10 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me 15:04:10 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it 15:04:12 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me 15:04:12 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted 15:05:42 <manu1> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2012Feb/0084.html 15:06:52 <ShaneM> zakim, what is the code? 15:06:52 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ShaneM 15:07:28 <Zakim> +??P20 15:07:32 <ShaneM> zakim, I am ??P20 15:07:32 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it 15:07:40 <gkellogg> scribe: gkellogg 15:07:56 <gkellogg> Discussion about clojoure implementation for RDFa Processor and how functional languages work wrt. the RDFa processing algorithm. @inlist tends to be the most complicated thing. 15:08:28 <Zakim> +Steven 15:10:21 <manu1> q+ to start the telecon. 15:10:59 <gkellogg> manu: remaining issues, one we hadn't responded to 15:11:16 <gkellogg> … next, need to decide if we're taking specs to rec and publication dates. 15:11:19 <manu1> ack manu1 15:11:19 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to start the telecon. 15:11:30 <Steven> DST in two weeks time 15:11:47 <gkellogg> ivan: one update, Mike Smith answered with additional editorial comments. 15:11:49 <Steven> q+ 15:12:03 <niklasl> q+ 15:12:05 <gkellogg> manu: scor also asked for some additional editorial changes 15:12:30 <gkellogg> manu: we should discuss Mike Smith's suggestions. 15:12:30 <manu> Topic: RDFa Attribute Value Conformance in Host Languages 15:12:57 <gkellogg> steven: reminder that DST goes off in the US 2 weeks before Europe. 15:13:07 <manu1> ack steven 15:13:08 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me 15:13:08 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted 15:13:10 <manu1> ack niklasl 15:13:38 <gkellogg> ivan: minor editorial changes can be made through rec. 15:14:03 <gkellogg> niklas: had wanted to add some clarity to CURIEs and '//' (assuming it remains editorial) 15:15:42 <gkellogg> ivan: shane, can you look at proposed changes? 15:16:12 <gkellogg> shane: They're pretty trivial... Mike wants host languages to be able to specify what is conforming in an attribute value. 15:16:37 <gkellogg> … e.g., if a host language can disallow @typeof='', that would be a problem. 15:17:13 <gkellogg> manu: it would be a bad idea for a host language author to do that, but should we disallow it? 15:18:15 <gkellogg> … however, the certain working groups could disallow @rel and @rev, which could handicap RDFa in those languages. 15:19:01 <gkellogg> … the specific attributes that were suggested by Mike Smith wouldn't be a real issue. 15:19:48 <manu1> PROPOSAL: Host Languages are allowed to specify the valid lexical space in an elements attribute values. 15:20:56 <niklasl> q+ 15:21:03 <manu1> ack niklasl 15:21:28 <gkellogg> niklasl: if authors want to support RDFa, shouldn't they need to support everything in RDFa core? 15:21:48 <gkellogg> manu: currently, the HTML5+RDFa spec says you need to implement all of RDFa Core 15:22:24 <gkellogg> … they may have a good reason _not_ to allow all attributes (e.g., @about is already used in the language) 15:22:43 <gkellogg> … doesn't affect the processor, only allows the HL to say it's invalid. 15:23:09 <gkellogg> gregg: +1 15:23:09 <manu1> +1 15:23:11 <ivan> +1 15:23:12 <ShaneM> +1 15:23:13 <MacTed> +1 15:23:18 <niklasl> + 15:23:19 <niklasl> +0 15:23:28 <scor> +1 15:23:45 <Steven> +0 15:23:45 <ShaneM> "an empty string for the value of any RDFa attribute MUST be allowed as conforming unless a Host Language specifically disallows the empty string for a particular attribute" 15:23:59 <manu1> RESOLVED: Host Languages are allowed to specify the valid lexical space of an element's attribute value. 15:24:29 <manu1> Topic: ISSUE-121: @id to set subject 15:24:48 <manu1> We had already resolved this: The @id attribute MUST NOT be used to identify a subject in RDFa - http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/meetings/2011-12-08#resolution_4 15:24:53 <gkellogg> manu: using @id to set the subject. 15:25:22 <gkellogg> … sebastian thought that there was a bit of support for it 15:25:38 <Steven> -1 15:25:53 <Steven> No! 15:26:10 <ivan> no way! 15:26:14 <gkellogg> … Sebastian proposed that @id is used as a subject if @typeof is also on the same element. 15:26:22 <ivan> major backward incompatibility issue 15:26:32 <ivan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2012Jan/0099.html 15:26:34 <Steven> Re-last call 15:26:39 <niklasl> q+ 15:26:45 <ShaneM> q+ about role 15:26:52 <gkellogg> manu: also an issue with the HTML group, as it causes existing attributes to be interpreted in different ways. 15:26:55 <ShaneM> q- about 15:26:57 <ShaneM> q- role 15:27:01 <ShaneM> q+ to discuss the role attribute 15:27:11 <manu1> ack niklasl 15:27:26 <gkellogg> niklasl: for the record, I do not want @id to be used as @about or @resource because of HTTP Range-14 15:28:07 <gkellogg> … My thought was that in certain scenarios, there could be a number of cases where @id could be similar to @about, but when looking to an implementation, it was clear it was a real problem. 15:28:19 <manu1> ack shanem 15:28:19 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to discuss the role attribute 15:28:20 <gkellogg> manu: clear that WG does not want to support. 15:28:34 <gkellogg> shane: role spec uses the @id attribute 15:28:47 <gkellogg> … but, it doesn't set the subject for any other RDFa. 15:29:32 <gkellogg> manu: other reason to not tie @id to @typeof is so the author isn't confused between different uses. 15:29:55 <gkellogg> … however, having the role spec use it, weakens the argument. 15:29:58 <gkellogg> niklas: No, it doesn't because the role spec is talking about elements on the page, not concepts that can exist outside of the page. 15:31:28 <manu1> PROPOSAL: The Working Group reaffirms that @id MUST NOT be used to set the subject in the RDFa Core specification. 15:31:30 <gkellogg> gkellogg: +1 15:31:31 <ivan> +1 15:31:32 <niklasl> +1 15:31:33 <manu1> +1 15:31:44 <Steven> +1 15:31:51 <MacTed> +1 15:31:56 <ShaneM> +1 15:31:59 <scor> +1 15:32:02 <manu1> RESOLVED: The Working Group reaffirms that @id MUST NOT be used to set the subject in the RDFa Core specification. 15:32:03 <niklasl> (.. because that would conflate the document elements and the subject matter of the content.) 15:32:17 <manu1> Topic: Take RDFa 1.1 to Candidate Recommendation 15:32:36 <manu1> The RDFa Core 1.1 Spec: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/drafts/2012/ED-rdfa-core-20120223/ 15:32:38 <manu1> The RDFa Lite 1.1 Spec: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/drafts/2012/WD-rdfa-lite-20120227/ 15:32:40 <manu1> The XHTML+RDFa 1.1 Spec: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/drafts/2012/ED-xhtml-rdfa-20120223/ 15:33:00 <gkellogg> manu: note that there are two sets of editorial edits remaining: 15:33:13 <gkellogg> … Mike Smith's and Stephane's 15:33:20 <scor> manu1: ok 15:33:27 <gkellogg> … I'd rather make those after we're in CR to save time. 15:33:44 <scor> ShaneM: private email 15:33:54 <scor> I can send them to the mailing list 15:35:13 <manu1> PROPOSAL: Propose to the Director that RDFa Core 1.1, RDFa Lite 1.1, and XHTML+RDFa 1.1 are ready to enter the Candidate Recommendation Phase. 15:35:37 <ivan> +1 15:35:37 <Steven> +1 15:35:37 <gkellogg> gkellogg: +1 15:35:38 <manu1> +1 15:35:39 <niklasl> +1 15:35:40 <ShaneM> +1 15:35:45 <MacTed> +1 15:35:47 <scor> +1 15:35:51 <manu1> RESOLVED: Propose to the Director that RDFa Core 1.1, RDFa Lite 1.1, and XHTML+RDFa 1.1 are ready to enter the Candidate Recommendation Phase. 15:35:53 <gkellogg> ... Rejoicing ... 15:36:03 <ivan> q+ 15:36:03 <manu1> Topic: Candidate Recommendation Exit Criteria 15:36:07 <manu1> ack ivan 15:36:28 <gkellogg> ivan: manu, I and shane have already tried to set things up to move fast. 15:36:45 <gkellogg> … telco at 9:00 eastern on monday to go over the transition. 15:37:11 <gkellogg> … this means that there is an additional process that there should be a week between transition request and publication 15:37:22 <gkellogg> … the earliest we can publish is in a week. 15:37:54 <gkellogg> … this should just be a formality. A week from Tuesday would be a good time. 15:38:34 <gkellogg> manu: for CR exit criteria, we need to decide what is required. 15:38:46 <gkellogg> … at least two interoperable implementations. 15:39:19 <gkellogg> ivan: to be more precise, we need to impls that pass every test in the suite, or for each suite, there must be at least two interoperable implementations. 15:39:38 <gkellogg> manu: do we feel we can meet it? 15:39:57 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me 15:39:57 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted 15:40:10 <gkellogg> ivan: my intention is to be fully green. 15:40:44 <manu1> Gregg: My implementation is all green right now... 15:40:58 <manu1> q+ to specify which test suite we mean. 15:41:20 <gkellogg> ivan: question is what constitutes exit criteria. 15:41:37 <gkellogg> manu: only test suites which are absolute criteria. 15:41:40 <gkellogg> q+ 15:41:50 <manu1> ack manu1 15:41:50 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to specify which test suite we mean. 15:42:11 <manu1> ack gkellogg 15:42:32 <manu1> gkellogg: My understanding is that vocabulary expansion is optional, but if they implement it, they must pass the suite. 15:42:46 <niklasl> q+ 15:42:49 <manu1> Ivan: The goal of the CR is to prove that stuff is implementable. 15:42:58 <gkellogg> ivan: goal of CR is to prove that the spec is implementable. 15:43:19 <gkellogg> … it is a strong responsibility on gkellogg and ivan if we go for stronger requirement. 15:44:08 <gkellogg> … I think that for the "official" exit criteria, I would prefer to say that each suite must be fully green with at least two versions. 15:44:19 <manu1> ack niklasl 15:44:34 <gkellogg> … my (and gkellogg's) should be able to do this, but don't want to depend on this. 15:44:55 <gkellogg> niklasl: it is dependent upon some OWL rules. 15:44:59 <gkellogg> ivan: only a limited set. 15:45:24 <gkellogg> niklasl: an implementation that includes a complete OWL implementation would be able to pass the spec. 15:46:29 <gkellogg> niklasl: Java has an OWL reasoner, which could be accessed from the Clojure implementation. 15:46:58 <gkellogg> ivan: implementation needs to make a good link between RDFa reasoner and OWL implementation. 15:47:06 <gkellogg> … I would propose that we go for weaker case. 15:49:12 <gkellogg> ivan: if we use XML and XHTML, then we are fine. 15:50:30 <manu1> gkellogg: There was one thing that was difficult to implement against each host language, but I think that was resolved. 15:50:33 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me 15:50:33 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted 15:52:08 <gkellogg> ivan: XML+RDFa and XHTML+RDFa are two different combinations. 15:52:28 <MacTed> four boxes: XML1+RDFa1.1, XHTML1+RDFa1.1, XML1+RDF1.1VE, XHTML1+RDFa1.1VE 15:52:48 <MacTed> each box needs 2 passing implementations 15:54:27 <gkellogg> ivan: we have about 280 tests, we're saying that each of these test must be passed by at least two implementations. 15:55:50 <gkellogg> manu: there was an issue with RDFa 1.0 where things would not pass due to XMLLiteral C14N test issues. 15:56:12 <niklasl> .. the host language isn't a factor once the basic triples have been extracted; the VE is only dependent on those triples. 15:56:25 <gkellogg> MacTed: we need at least two implementations that pass everything in each suite 15:56:26 <ShaneM> q+ to attempt to clarify 15:56:34 <ShaneM> q- 15:56:35 <manu1> ack shanem 15:56:37 <niklasl> q+ 15:58:50 <manu1> PROPOSAL: The exit criteria for the RDFa 1.1 Candidate Recommendation phase will be two independent implementations that support each feature mentioned in the RDFa 1.1 Core and XHTML+RDFa 1.1 specifications. 15:58:59 <ivan> +1 15:59:02 <Steven> +1 15:59:03 <ShaneM> Note that we DO NOT have a CR exit criteria about the XHTML M12N module. And that's fine. 15:59:04 <ShaneM> +1 15:59:05 <manu1> +1 15:59:05 <gkellogg> gkellogg: +1 15:59:06 <scor> +1 15:59:07 <niklasl> +1 15:59:09 <MacTed> +1 15:59:14 <manu1> RESOLVED: The exit criteria for the RDFa 1.1 Candidate Recommendation phase will be two independent implementations that support each feature mentioned in the RDFa 1.1 Core and XHTML+RDFa 1.1 specifications. 15:59:21 <niklasl> q- 15:59:34 <manu1> Topic: Implementations 15:59:42 <gkellogg> ivan: end of CR period is about the end of April, quite a long time. 16:00:05 <gkellogg> … this is because there is a minimal time between first public draft and PR, and RDfa 1.1 Lite came into the picture relatively late. 16:00:16 <Zakim> -ShaneM 16:00:17 <gkellogg> … I think we'll be done earlier, but this is the best time. 16:00:17 <gkellogg> Manu: We have commitments for implementations in: Python, Ruby, C, Clojure (and thus Java and possibly JavaScript), and Perl. 16:00:25 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa 16:01:11 <Zakim> -MacTed 16:01:12 <Zakim> -Steven 16:01:25 <Zakim> -scor 16:01:39 <manu1> Manu: I will be updating librdfa to RDFa 1.1 (as well as the Python wrapper) 16:12:49 <niklasl> (my impl., in it's current haphazard state, passes 75% at this moment) # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. 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