Chatlog 2012-01-19

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14:36:08 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
14:36:08 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/01/19-rdfa-irc
14:36:10 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:36:10 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfa
14:36:12 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332
14:36:12 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 24 minutes
14:36:13 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
14:36:13 <trackbot> Date: 19 January 2012
14:48:11 <MacTed> MacTed has joined #rdfa
15:00:29 <niklasl> niklasl has joined #rdfa
15:00:41 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa
15:00:42 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started
15:00:49 <Zakim> +scor
15:00:52 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
15:01:01 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:01:01 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
15:01:04 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
15:01:04 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
15:01:04 <scor> scor has joined #rdfa
15:01:23 <Zakim> + +1.540.961.aaaa
15:01:27 <Zakim> - +1.540.961.aaaa
15:01:34 <Zakim> +??P25
15:01:54 <Zakim> +??P27
15:01:58 <manu1> zakim, I am ??P27
15:01:58 <Zakim> +manu1; got it
15:02:07 <niklasl> zakim, I am ??P25
15:02:07 <Zakim> +niklasl; got it
15:02:20 <manu1> zakim, who is on the call?
15:02:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see scor, MacTed (muted), niklasl, manu1
15:02:34 <Zakim> + +1.612.217.aabb
15:02:40 <ShaneM> zakim, I am aabb
15:02:40 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it
15:02:56 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:02:56 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:02:58 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:03:51 <manu1> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2012Jan/0024.html
15:04:03 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
15:04:21 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
15:04:25 <MacTed> scribenick: MacTed
15:04:28 <MacTed> scribe: Ted
15:09:06 <MacTed> Agenda review, one change, discuss HTML+RDFa document conformance at end of call
15:09:07 <manu1> Topic: ISSUE-84: fragment identifiers
15:09:07 <MacTed> manu1: This issue has been re-opened because the TAG has new language that they'd like to use. Do we want to use the new language as requested by the WWW TAG? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Dec/0055.html
15:09:52 <ShaneM> The spec now says: In some of the examples below we have used IRIs with fragment identifiers that are local to the document containing the RDFa fragment identifiers shown (e.g., 'about="#me"'). This idiom, which is also used in RDF/XML [RDF-SYNTAX-GRAMMAR] and other RDF serializations, gives a simple way to 'mint' new IRIs for entities described by RDFa and therefore contributes considerably to the expressive power of RDFa.
15:10:12 <MacTed> No concerns about new language.
15:10:12 <manu1> PROPOSAL: Adopt the WWW TAG proposed language on fragment identifiers and place it into RDFa Core 1.1
15:10:14 <manu1> +1
15:10:16 <niklasl> +1
15:10:16 <ShaneM> +1
15:10:23 <ivan> +1
15:10:33 <MacTed> MacTed: +1
15:10:35 <scor> +1
15:10:37 <ivan> RESOLVED: Adopt the WWW TAG proposed language on fragment identifiers and place it into RDFa Core 1.1
15:10:51 <manu1> Topic: ISSUE-125: Refine CURIE syntax
15:11:04 <manu1> https://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/125
15:12:47 <MacTed> manu: SPARQL & Turtle use a different CURIE definition than current RDFa; request is that RDFa be aligned to the others
15:13:51 <niklasl> q+
15:14:11 <MacTed> ... concern is that requested revision differs from Turtle and SPARQL by explicitly disallowing http:// (and possibly some other scheme patterns)
15:14:39 <manu1> ack niklasl
15:15:24 <MacTed> niklasl: not quite clear on what's allowed and not, by these syntaxes...  forward slashes seem to require backslash-escaping
15:15:52 <MacTed> ... Gavin appears to have misinterpreted some docs
15:17:29 <MacTed> ivan: I sympathize with the goal of same syntax across RDFa, SPARQL, & Turtle; but if request is to put an extra restriction in RDFa, not sure that's needed
15:18:34 <manu1> Here's the definition they'd like us to use: http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-sparql11-query-20120105/#rPN_PREFIX
15:18:42 <MacTed> manu: I think this group would agree that 1 syntax for CURIEs across all specs/languages would be good. I'm concerned about ways that the requested definition differs from Turtle and SPARQL.
15:20:26 <scor> does the current RDFa syntax definition for CURIEs allow http:// ? 
15:21:12 <ShaneM> I am not in favor of making changes to this at this time.
15:21:14 <niklasl> scor: I'm afraid so
15:21:23 <MacTed> ivan: sees 2 concerns from Gavin.  1 = discrepancy between RDFa and SPARQL/Turtle CURIE def; 2 = prefix restriction(s)
15:24:26 <MacTed> (...discussion...)  suggested syntax BNF in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2012Jan/0025.html would disallow many currently acceptable CURIEs
15:25:41 <ShaneM> this BNF is making my eyes bleed
15:28:07 <MacTed> (...discussion...)  schema.org extensions via '/' would be invalidated by this syntax... so would dbpedia. That is if someone wanted to do this: schema:Person/Engineer/ElectricalEngineer they couldn't without escaping the slashes like so: schema:Person\/Engineer\/ElectricalEngineer ... people using schema.org are not going to understand why they have to backslash escape that stuff... and they don't have to with RDFa today.
15:29:39 <scor> ivan: it's only for external parties willing to extend these types
15:29:44 <ivan> http://schema.org/docs/extension.html
15:29:47 <scor> not on schema.org itself
15:30:45 <scor> we should bounce the / issue back to Gavin and the RDF WG
15:31:03 <scor> re the use of / in DBpedia and schema.org extensions
15:31:09 <MacTed> manu: We've now confirmed two real-world use cases requiring unescaped slashes in CURIEs, with third-party extensions of schema.org and dbpedia:/resource/Albert_Einstein - if we limit the syntax, we limit the ability to shorten URIs, and that's the whole purpose of CURIEs. We can't accept a solution that requires characters like /, & and ? to be backslash escaped... it's too restrictive.
15:31:39 <manu1> PROPOSAL: Accept the SPARQL 1.1 Query Language definition of PN_LOCAL and PN_PREFIX for CURIEs in RDFa 1.1
15:31:50 <manu1> -1
15:31:53 <scor> -1
15:32:03 <ivan> -1
15:32:05 <ShaneM> -1
15:32:21 <ShaneM> I am a big fan of dbpedia reference
15:32:23 <niklasl> +0
15:32:47 <MacTed> Ted: +0
15:33:00 <manu1> RESOLVED: Reject the SPARQL 1.1 Query Language definition of PN_LOCAL and PN_PREFIX for CURIEs in RDFa 1.1
15:34:43 <ShaneM> q+ about why this is all a bad idea
15:35:12 <niklasl> q+
15:35:32 <manu1> ack niklasl
15:35:39 <niklasl> I still have concerns about this, outlined here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2012Jan/0027.html
15:37:45 <ShaneM> BTW we published the CURIE spec as a note when the XHTML working group shut down: http://www.w3.org/TR/curie/
15:40:40 <MacTed> (...discussion...) colon as separation character is where the trouble lies, but fixing that is an enormous task touching many specs, the discussion would be unending and all to solve a problem that we've never heard anybody complain about. The proposed solution is worse than what we have in RDFa right now.
15:41:32 <ShaneM> I am actually not opposed to preventing a slash as a first character of a reference
15:44:39 <manu1> PROPOSAL: Prevent a slash as the first character in the reference part of a CURIE.
15:42:56 <ivan> 0
15:44:41 <manu1> -1
15:44:47 <ivan> 0
15:45:02 <ivan> q+
15:45:16 <MacTed> (...discussion...) past specs allowed what we're considering disallowing... which means we're doing something that is backwards incompatible
15:45:28 <manu1> ack ivan
15:46:02 <MacTed> (...discussion...) current refinement suggestions are further departure from CURIE specs in SPARQL and Turtle, not alignment... if we are to align these specifications, resolving to not allow a slash as the first character in the reference part of a CURIE is a bad way to start the discussion. We should coordinate more on RDF WG on this, but this is not for RDFa 1.1.
15:47:34 <ShaneM> 0
15:47:39 <niklasl> +1
15:47:39 <ivan> -0
15:47:55 <MacTed> Ted: +0
15:48:01 <scor> -0
15:48:55 <MacTed> Manu: We don't have consensus on this, we've discussed all of this before, no new information... let's move on.
15:49:59 <manu1> Topic: Use of RDFa in XML-based languages
15:50:11 <ivan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2012Jan/0031.html
15:50:11 <MacTed> manu: Yes, this was my comment. I don't think that we should limit that RDFa attributes in XML documents MUST be in the XHTML namespace... authors are just not going to do that. We should instead say that RDFa attributes can be in the 'no namespace'.
15:54:11 <MacTed> Shane: What about clashes w/ languages that use stuff like @href and @src? Maybe we should allow them in XHTML namespace as well, so attributes can be used in both 'no namespace' and xhtml namespace... processors much check both.
15:55:16 <MacTed> General agreement on changes, no opposition.
15:56:24 <MacTed> Niklas: We should warn authors about conflicts in 'no namespace'.
15:58:59 <manu1> PROPOSAL: Change XML+RDFa such that RDFa attributes are defined in 'no namespace' and XHTML namespace and also caution authors that they must pay attention to XML-based languages where the RDFa attributes and Host Language attributes may overlap.
16:00:16 <ivan> +1
16:00:19 <manu1> +1
16:00:22 <MacTed> Ted: +1
16:00:24 <ShaneM> +1
16:00:25 <niklasl> +1
16:00:36 <scor> +1
16:00:38 <manu1> RESOLVED: Change XML+RDFa such that RDFa attributes are defined in 'no namespace' and XHTML namespace and also caution authors that they must pay attention to XML-based languages where the RDFa attributes and Host Language attributes may overlap.
16:01:23 <manu1> Topic: @resource in RDFaLite 1.1
16:03:53 <MacTed> Ivan: We need to make a decision on whether or not we're going to replace @about with @resource in RDFa Lite 1.1
16:04:53 <MacTed> Manu: To avoid another LC, we should note it clearly in the document that we /may/ do this after LC, so folks should weigh in on it during LC. That'll cover us from having to do another LC.
16:04:53 <MacTed> Ivan: We need to make this decision eventually.
16:06:53 <MacTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:06:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/19-rdfa-minutes.html MacTed
16:06:56 <MacTed> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:06:57 <Zakim> -Ivan
16:06:59 <Zakim> -manu1
16:07:04 <MacTed> trackbot, end meeting
16:07:04 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:07:04 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been scor, MacTed, +1.540.961.aaaa, manu1, niklasl, +1.612.217.aabb, ShaneM, Ivan
16:07:07 <Zakim> -scor
16:07:07 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:07:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/01/19-rdfa-minutes.html trackbot
16:07:08 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:07:08 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
16:07:09 <Zakim> -ShaneM
16:07:10 <Zakim> -niklasl
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