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Chatlog 2011-07-28
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13:56:59 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa 13:56:59 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/28-rdfa-irc 13:57:01 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 13:57:01 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfa 13:57:03 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332 13:57:04 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Web Applications Working Group Teleconference 13:57:04 <trackbot> Date: 28 July 2011 13:57:04 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes 13:57:06 <manu1> Chair: Manu 13:57:06 <manu1> Guest: Stéphane (scor) Corlosquet 13:57:06 <manu1> Guest: Henri (bergie) Bergius 13:57:06 <manu1> Guest: Niklas (lindstream) Lindström 13:57:50 <manu1> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Jul/0058.html 13:57:58 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started 13:58:05 <Zakim> +??P14 13:58:22 <lindstream> zakim, I am ??P14 13:58:22 <Zakim> +lindstream; got it 13:58:30 <Zakim> +??P17 13:58:33 <manu1> zakim, I am ??P17 13:58:33 <Zakim> +manu1; got it 13:59:44 <Zakim> +??P19 13:59:53 <gkellogg> zakim, i am ??P19 13:59:54 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it 14:00:24 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software 14:00:31 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me 14:00:33 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it 14:00:35 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me 14:00:37 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted 14:00:44 <MacTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes 14:00:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/28-rdfa-minutes.html MacTed 14:00:57 <tomayac> tomayac has joined #rdfa 14:00:57 <MacTed> RRSAgent, make logs public 14:02:19 <Zakim> + +1.781.866.aaaa 14:02:19 <Knud> Knud has joined #rdfa 14:02:36 <Zakim> + +3539149aabb 14:02:43 <Zakim> + +358.405.25aacc 14:02:50 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me 14:02:50 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted 14:02:52 <Knud> zakim, i am aabb 14:02:52 <Zakim> +Knud; got it 14:02:57 <bergie> zakim, I am aacc 14:02:57 <Zakim> +bergie; got it 14:03:01 <bergie> zakim, mute me 14:03:01 <Zakim> bergie should now be muted 14:03:37 <Knud> zakim, mute me 14:03:37 <Zakim> Knud should now be muted 14:03:37 <scor> scor has joined #rdfa 14:04:02 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here? 14:04:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see lindstream, manu1, gkellogg, MacTed, +1.781.866.aaaa, Knud (muted), bergie (muted) 14:04:04 <Zakim> On IRC I see scor, Knud, tomayac, Zakim, RRSAgent, lindstream, MacTed, danbri, bergie, gkellogg, manu1, manu, trackbot 14:04:16 <scor> zakim, I'm aaaa 14:04:16 <Zakim> I don't understand 'I'm aaaa', scor 14:04:24 <MacTed> Zakim, aaaa is scor 14:04:27 <Zakim> +scor; got it 14:04:29 <scor> zakim, aaaa is me 14:04:31 <Zakim> sorry, scor, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa' 14:05:00 <manu1> zakim, who is on the call? 14:05:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see lindstream, manu1, gkellogg, MacTed, scor, Knud (muted), bergie (muted) 14:05:06 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me 14:05:09 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted 14:05:12 <Zakim> +tomayac 14:06:42 <manu1> scribenick: tomayac 14:07:28 <tomayac> manu1: Do we need to discuss http://structured-data.org/ ? 14:07:41 <tomayac> gkellogg: no news, continous work, but not ready for release yet 14:08:20 <tomayac> manu1: Tantek Çelik from Microformats community and Philip Jägenstedt and Henri Sivonen from Microdata community have been added to the structured-data code repository as admins. We are attempting to build bridges - hopefully this is a good first step. 14:09:17 <manu1> Topic: Proxy vocabularies via @vocab 14:09:43 <lindstream> https://gist.github.com/1092350 14:09:48 <manu1> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Jul/0048.html 14:10:02 <Zakim> +??P48 14:10:08 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa 14:10:16 <ShaneM> zakim, who is here? 14:10:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see lindstream, manu1, gkellogg, MacTed (muted), scor, Knud (muted), bergie (muted), tomayac, ??P48 14:10:19 <Zakim> On IRC I see ShaneM, scor, Knud, tomayac, Zakim, RRSAgent, lindstream, MacTed, danbri, bergie, gkellogg, manu1, manu, trackbot 14:10:22 <ShaneM> zakim, I am ??P48 14:10:22 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it 14:11:00 <tomayac> Niklas talks us through https://gist.github.com/1092350 - Basically a Proxy Vocabulary would allow people to define uber-vocabularies, like http://schema.org/ , but also ensure that there is a clear mechanism of mapping those vocabularies to dc, foaf, sioc or other more widely used vocabularies. 14:11:56 <tomayac> manu1: this almost looks like a re-invention of rdfa profiles. not saying it's a bad thing, just want to understand why we have things like map:ProxyTerm and map:ProxyClass. 14:12:06 <Knud> should this be part of the RDFa spec, or a separate spec (a W3C note?) that do we reference? 14:12:12 <tomayac> lindstream: it grew from that (RDFa Profiles). similarity is intentional. 14:13:20 <Knud> q+ 14:13:37 <tomayac> manu1: Proxy Vocabularies are a post-processing step 14:14:04 <tomayac> manu1: wondering why not just using rdfs instead of map? 14:14:21 <gkellogg> +1 to talk about diff with rdfs 14:14:51 <gkellogg> q+ to talk about diff with rdfs 14:15:47 <Knud> zakim, unmute me 14:15:47 <Zakim> Knud should no longer be muted 14:15:48 <manu1> ack Knud 14:16:08 <tomayac> knud: do you think this should be a part of rdfa, or a best practice? 14:16:28 <lindstream> q+ 14:16:41 <tomayac> lindstream: i don't see this as a part of rdfa 14:16:45 <manu1> ack gkellogg 14:16:45 <Zakim> gkellogg, you wanted to talk about diff with rdfs 14:17:00 <tomayac> gkellogg: this can be more generic than just rdfa 14:17:12 <tomayac> gkellogg: it includes some of the rdf entailment rules 14:17:23 <tomayac> gkellogg: you don't need something like owl:sameas which requires multiple iterations at times and is NP Complete. 14:18:03 <tomayac> gkellogg: Proxy Vocabularies are simpler - we probably do want something normative about it 14:18:05 <manu1> ack lindstream 14:18:33 <tomayac> lindstream: it would be good to publish a note apart from the rdfa spec 14:18:45 <tomayac> lindstream: there might be a need for this pattern elsewhere 14:19:09 <manu1> q+ to respond directly to Knud's question 14:19:28 <tomayac> lindstream: not sure if it's better than mixing vocabularies, but imho it's very valuable 14:19:28 <Knud> q+ 14:19:46 <manu1> ack manu1 14:19:46 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to respond directly to Knud's question 14:20:05 <tomayac> manu1: we should say something normative about it 14:20:34 <tomayac> manu1: mapping might be done differently by google, facebook, etc. 14:21:02 <tomayac> manu1: there's an opportunity to be specific on how we expect follow your nose to work. 14:21:04 <manu1> ack knud 14:21:21 <tomayac> knud: not yet completely convinced 14:21:47 <tomayac> knud: a stand-alone doc might be more useful 14:22:24 <tomayac> knud: facebook and google don't seem to want people to mix vocabularies, also microdata people think uber-vocabularies would be easier 14:22:58 <manu1> q+ 14:23:08 <tomayac> knud: being able to mix vocabularies was our main motiviation to introduce profiles 14:23:09 <manu1> ack manu1 14:23:29 <tomayac> knud: but it seems that the big players don't want / need this, though 14:23:52 <tomayac> manu: I'm concerned about the W3C process 14:24:23 <lindstream> q+ 14:24:25 <tomayac> manu1: pushing this separately as a REC is out of charter 14:24:38 <tomayac> manu1: we can put it in the rdfa core spec, but there are also issues with doing that - we may be too specific to RDFa - Proxy Vocabularies are a more general solution. 14:24:53 <tomayac> manu1: we can always publish it as a note and people can either ignore or use it 14:25:07 <tomayac> lindstream: i didn't ask to be normative about this 14:25:21 <manu1> ack lindstream 14:25:58 <gkellogg> q+ 14:26:00 <Knud> zakim, mute me 14:26:00 <Zakim> Knud should now be muted 14:26:03 <manu1> ack gkellogg 14:26:05 <tomayac> manu1: I would be fine with publishing as a note 14:26:34 <ShaneM> q+ to ask what problem are we trying to solve? 14:26:57 <tomayac> gkellogg: doing it in a non-normative way might result in everyone just doing it their way 14:27:03 <manu1> ack ShaneM 14:27:04 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to ask what problem are we trying to solve? 14:27:05 <tomayac> gkellogg: might lead to confusion 14:27:31 <tomayac> shanem: we created this WG with a set of use cases and a plan to address them 14:27:57 <tomayac> shanem: if we come to the end without addressing the use cases, we should just say we don't address them 14:28:37 <tomayac> manu1: we were very concerned about vocabulary mixing 14:28:46 <MacTed> +1 14:28:54 <tomayac> shanem: if we come out of this without a way to do it, i feel like we have not done our job 14:29:26 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me 14:29:26 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted 14:29:39 <tomayac> manu1: does not be normative mean you (OpenLink) wouldn't put it in Virtuouso 14:30:37 <Knud> vocabulary mixing can always be done with @prefix, right? 14:30:55 <tomayac> macted: not necessarily, @prefix doesn't allow term re-mixing? 14:31:22 <tomayac> manu1: would proxy vocabularies be a good replacement? 14:32:02 <tomayac> shanem: i would agree 14:32:12 <tomayac> macted: not sure what problem is being resolved 14:33:18 <tomayac> manu1: option 1 = modify prefix, 2 = use vocab, but limits to one vocabulary 14:33:46 <tomayac> manu1: proxy vocabulary allows for mixing via a big über vocabulary 14:34:10 <ShaneM> q+ to ask for a clarification on @vocab 14:34:24 <manu1> ack shanem 14:34:24 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to ask for a clarification on @vocab 14:34:45 <tomayac> shanem: if I'm a semantic data processing engine, and I see a term called 'foo', I'm gonna follow my nose to the profile document 14:35:14 <lindstream> q+ 14:35:16 <tomayac> shanem: when I do that, I see that 'foo' maps to 'foaf:name'. Shouldn't a hardcore semantic data processing engine be doing that anyway? 14:35:32 <manu1> ack lindstream 14:35:34 <tomayac> manu1: in theory this is how it works, in practice - I don't think there are many people doing that. 14:35:52 <tomayac> lindstream: it is true that we already have all the semantic mechanisms there 14:36:11 <manu1> q+ to add normative statements to @vocab 14:36:21 <tomayac> lindstream: it is more or less putting a focus on how to do it. Proxy Vocabularies are a middle-ground between hardcore entailment/reasoning and dumb processing. If we want this stuff to work well in browsers, we can't expect an NP Complete solution to get traction. 14:37:18 <gkellogg> q+ 14:37:30 <tomayac> shanem: if the semweb isn't doing this yet, then probably they never will. who needs the hint? 14:37:38 <tomayac> lindstream: the non-hardcore engines 14:37:45 <tomayac> shanem: but they don't seem to care 14:37:51 <tomayac> lindstream: fair enough... 14:37:52 <manu1> ack manu1 14:37:52 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to add normative statements to @vocab 14:38:15 <tomayac> manu1: what if we said normatively that you should use proxy vocabularies if you plan to do an uber vocabulary? 14:38:28 <lindstream> q+ 14:39:07 <tomayac> manu1: we shouldn't have to say this 14:39:23 <manu1> ack gkellogg 14:39:24 <tomayac> manu1: we expect people that use vocab to make sure that people can follow their nose 14:39:43 <tomayac> gkellogg: we have to remember that there's a difference between processing and reasoning 14:40:07 <tomayac> gkellogg: if we ever want to have browser vendors to do stuff with this, reasoning won't be the way 14:40:08 <ShaneM> text from the role spec about vocabluaries: It is possible to define additional role values. Such values must be defined in their own vocabulary. The URI associated with that vocabulary should resolve to a resource that allows for the machine and human discovery of the definition of the roles in the vocabulary. One format that achieves this is the RDFa Profile as defined in [RDFA-CORE]. 14:40:22 <manu1> ack lindstream 14:40:52 <tomayac> lindstream: since vocab is used to turn the term into a uri, you should be able to get info on what it is 14:41:26 <ShaneM> I am happy to add text to RDFa Core that indicates the URI for @vocab must resolve and SHOULD resolve to a resource that ... (see above) 14:41:56 <tomayac> lindstream: hardcore semweb engines follow their noses, others don't 14:42:26 <tomayac> manu1: seems like we have come full circle here, this stuff should just work in an "ideal world" - however, we are not operating in that and some guidance would be good. 14:43:55 <tomayac> shanem: if the community is unable to figure out follow your nose reliably, the semantic web community has failed miserably in explaining it correctly. How is this problem? We're just writing a small spec on top of the sem web stack - isn't this the responsibility of the larger semweb community? 14:44:16 <lindstream> q+ 14:45:13 <ShaneM> Ted: put it in the primer 14:45:27 <tomayac> shanem: we are now endlessly complicating 14:46:29 <Knud> isn't there a W3C document somewhere called "the self-describing web"? 14:46:33 <ShaneM> the sem web coord group may surprise you and point you at an existing spec that describes follow your nose 14:46:50 <ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/selfDescribingDocuments.html 14:47:06 <Knud> yes, that 14:48:09 <ShaneM> q+ to clarify whether we want language in rdfa core that indicates that a vocab should include an RDFa definition of the vocab 14:48:21 <manu1> ack lindstream 14:48:51 <MacTed> it just seems that we're doing s/@profile/@proxyvocab/g 14:49:05 <MacTed> not really changing what's happening -- just the term for it 14:49:07 <tomayac> manu1: the semweb coordination group might be a good candidate for publishing this doc 14:49:24 <manu1> ACTION: Manu to raise @profile and Proxy Vocabulary issue with SWCG. 14:49:25 <trackbot> Created ACTION-88 - Raise @profile and Proxy Vocabulary issue with SWCG. [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-08-04]. 14:49:50 <ShaneM> q? 14:49:54 <manu1> ack shanem 14:49:54 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to clarify whether we want language in rdfa core that indicates that a vocab should include an RDFa definition of the vocab 14:50:20 <tomayac> shanem: do you want me to put that sentence (above) in the spec? 14:50:22 <Knud> RDFa or other RDF? 14:50:30 <tomayac> shanem: objections? none 14:50:33 <Knud> zakim, unmute me 14:50:33 <Zakim> Knud should no longer be muted 14:50:53 <ShaneM> The URI associated with that vocabulary should resolve to a resource that allows for the machine and human discovery of the definition of the roles in the vocabulary. One format that achieves this is the RDFa Profile as defined in [RDFA-CORE]. 14:51:47 <lindstream> q+ 14:51:50 <ShaneM> RDFa Profiles are collections of terms, prefix mappings, and/or default vocabulary declarations. A profile is either intrinsically known to the parser, or it is loaded as an external document and processed. These documents must be defined in an approved RDFa Host Language (currently XML+RDFa and XHTML+RDFa [XHTML-RDFA]). They may also be defined in other formats (e.g., RDF/XML [RDF-SYNTAX-GRAMMAR], or Turtle [TURTLE]). RDFa Profiles are referenced via @profile 14:52:00 <manu1> ack lindstream 14:52:17 <tomayac> lindstream: i agree. it is just a uri 14:52:39 <tomayac> Topic: Removing @profile 14:52:39 <tomayac> manu1: are we ok with removing profile entirely from rdfa core? 14:53:02 <tomayac> manu1: with the assumption that the vocabulary stuff will be cleared 14:53:09 <MacTed> q+ 14:53:28 <manu1> ack macted 14:53:58 <tomayac> macted: we don't seem to have a clear understanding of what the problem is 14:54:03 <Knud> q+ 14:54:04 <lindstream> q+ 14:54:08 <manu1> ack knud 14:54:23 <tomayac> knud: the problem with profile is that rdfa core requires it to be resolved 14:54:30 <tomayac> knud: what if it can't ? 14:54:45 <tomayac> knud: vocab does not have to be resolved, it can be, though 14:55:19 <manu1> ack lindstream 14:55:32 <tomayac> manu1: to clarify: RDFa Profiles via @profile is a 'must pre-process' mechanism, Proxy Vocabularies via @vocab is a 'may post-process' mechanism 14:55:45 <ShaneM> not MAY pre-process. CAN post-process. 14:56:02 <ShaneM> And, FWIW, it was ALWAYS this way (@vocab) 14:57:08 <gkellogg> Without giving some guidance on /how/ to process @vocab, nothing will happen. We should have text indicating /what/ should be in the doc pointed to by @vocab with simple processing rules. 14:58:12 <gkellogg> A potential issue with multiple @vocab definitions is that each sub-graph needs to be processed using different rules. 14:59:27 <tomayac> manu1: we would have almost the same functionality covered by @profile and @vocab if we did 'may post-process' for both of them. We only need one solution. Both allow vocabulary mixing. 14:59:40 <lindstream> q+ 15:00:15 <tomayac> shanem: you can declare prefix mappings, this wouldn't be possible in a post-process world 15:00:15 <tomayac> manu1: That is true - we would have to ensure that @prefix allowed one to declare terms. 15:01:19 <manu1> ack lindstream 15:02:12 <manu1> PROPOSAL: Remove @profile feature from the RDFa Core specification with the caveat that the issue will be re-opened if ePub, OpenDoc, IPTC, or other communities have an issue with its removal. 15:02:37 <Knud> +1 15:02:39 <tomayac> +1 15:02:41 <manu1> +1 15:02:41 <lindstream> +1 15:02:42 <gkellogg> +1 15:02:49 <MacTed> +1 15:02:52 <scor> +1 for removal 15:02:57 <bergie> +1 15:03:02 <ShaneM> +1 15:03:10 <manu1> RESOLVED: Remove @profile feature from the RDFa Core specification with the caveat that the issue will be re-opened if ePub, OpenDoc, IPTC, or other communities have an issue with its removal. 15:03:23 <Zakim> -bergie 15:03:25 <Zakim> -MacTed 15:03:27 <Zakim> -gkellogg 15:03:28 <Zakim> -Knud 15:03:33 <Zakim> -tomayac 15:03:37 <Zakim> -scor 15:10:03 <tomayac> rrsagent, draft minutes 15:10:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/28-rdfa-minutes.html tomayac 15:11:14 <tomayac> zakim, bye 15:11:14 <Zakim> leaving. As of this point the attendees were lindstream, manu1, gkellogg, MacTed, +1.781.866.aaaa, +3539149aabb, +358.405.25aacc, Knud, bergie, scor, tomayac, ShaneM 15:11:14 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdfa 15:11:22 <tomayac> rrsagent, draft minutes 15:11:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/28-rdfa-minutes.html tomayac # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000267