Warning:
This wiki has been archived and is now read-only.
Chatlog 2011-02-10
From RDFa Working Group Wiki
See CommonScribe Control Panel, original RRSAgent log and preview nicely formatted version.
14:53:26 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa 14:53:26 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/02/10-rdfa-irc 14:53:28 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 14:53:28 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfa 14:53:30 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332 14:53:30 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes 14:53:31 <trackbot> Meeting: RDFa Working Group Teleconference 14:53:31 <trackbot> Date: 10 February 2011 14:54:14 <manu> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Feb/0061.html 14:54:18 <manu> Chair: Manu 14:54:39 <manu> Present: Ivan, Nathan, Steven, Manu, Shane 14:59:46 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa 15:00:22 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip 15:00:22 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made 15:00:24 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started 15:00:25 <Zakim> +Ivan 15:00:30 <Zakim> +??P18 15:00:47 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 15:00:48 <ShaneM> zakim, ??p18 is ShaneM 15:00:49 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it 15:01:26 <Zakim> +??P27 15:01:28 <Knud> Knud has joined #rdfa 15:01:32 <Zakim> +??P24 15:01:36 <manu> zakim, I am ??P24 15:01:36 <Zakim> +manu; got it 15:01:46 <webr3> Zakim, I am ??P24 15:01:48 <Zakim> sorry, webr3, I do not see a party named '??P24' 15:01:49 <webr3> Zakim, I am ??P27 15:01:50 <Zakim> +webr3; got it 15:01:58 <webr3> zakim, mute me 15:02:02 <Zakim> webr3 should now be muted 15:02:20 <webr3> zakim, unmute me 15:02:20 <Zakim> webr3 should no longer be muted 15:02:51 <Zakim> + +3539149aaaa 15:03:03 <Knud> zakim, I am aaaa 15:03:03 <Zakim> +Knud; got it 15:03:45 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617 15:03:45 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made 15:03:46 <Zakim> +Steven 15:04:28 <manu> zakim, who is on the call? 15:04:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ivan, ShaneM, [IPcaller], webr3, manu, Knud, Steven 15:04:39 <webr3> (ipcaller isn't there, that's me) 15:04:53 <manu> zakim, [IPcaller] is webr3 15:04:53 <Zakim> +webr3; got it 15:05:17 <webr3> I /was/ ipcaller, i hung up, ipcaller name stayed.. 15:05:56 <manu> Topic: ISSUE-73 and ISSUE-78: RDFa Default Profile 15:05:57 <webr3> Topic: ISSUE-73 and ISSUE-78: RDFa Default Profile 15:06:05 <webr3> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/73 15:06:11 <webr3> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/78 15:06:14 <manu> Proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Feb/0099.html 15:07:28 <webr3> ivan: choice for URIs for profiles is important, dated or not 15:07:43 <webr3> ivan: I'll discuss with people in W3C about this 15:07:51 <manu> ACTION: Manu to contact SemWeb Coordination Group to discuss default RDFa Profile URLs 15:07:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-59 - Contact SemWeb Coordination Group to discuss default RDFa Profile URLs [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-02-17]. 15:07:55 <Steven> agenda+HCG 15:08:25 <webr3> ... technical question: I read your mail as if we have a profile valid for RDFa Core, and a different one for HTML+RDFa etc, is that correct? 15:08:54 <webr3> manu: I don't think we can have just one profile, for instance HTML will have custom terms 15:09:17 <webr3> ivan: that creates some issues.. it means that any host language has the right to define a default profile 15:09:30 <webr3> ... are there any restrictions on host languages? 15:10:10 <webr3> ... or perhaps we say we have to default profiles, a core one for everyone, and some host languages can add a host specific one.. 15:11:20 <webr3> ... not only W3C can control host languages, other standardization bodies could do other RDFa host languages, sem web activity lead can't constrain what they do 15:11:51 <webr3> manu: host languages could override default profile.. 15:12:08 <webr3> ivan: yes they could do that anyway by redeclaring all terms in default core profile 15:12:41 <webr3> ivan: I am leaning that we have two, core profile for all RDF, and a language specific one 15:12:46 <webr3> s/RDF/RDFa 15:13:10 <manu> Nathan: Core profile for all of RDF? Or core profile for all of RDFa? 15:14:06 <webr3> ivan: we can't define for RDF, we are RDFa working group, RDF WG will need to decide that 15:14:20 <manu> Manu: Do we expect default profiles for RDF/XML or Turtle? 15:14:34 <webr3> ivan: it may happen, it does not seem very likely for rdf/xml and turtle at least 15:15:04 <manu> The profile for RDFa - http://www.w3.org/2011/profiles/rdfa 15:15:15 <manu> The profile for (X)HTML+RDFa - http://www.w3.org/2011/profiles/htmlrdfa 15:15:25 <webr3> Manu: we would be defining two profiles, RDFa default, profile for (X)HTML+RDFa 15:16:46 <webr3> Ivan: Next Point, still related, we had a standing issue, if we do that, how do I know that I am managing XHTML+RDFa? (to get profile) 15:17:02 <webr3> Manu: I was thinking we could trigger off (some element, <html> etc) 15:17:37 <webr3> Ivan: first question is, is this something we need in the document? 15:18:08 <ShaneM> q+ to discuss announcement 15:18:10 <webr3> Manu: yes.. 15:18:16 <manu> ack shanem 15:18:16 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to discuss announcement 15:18:27 <webr3> Ivan: i don't like this sniffing to much.. 15:18:56 <webr3> Shane: I thought we debated and agreed 3/4 weeks ago that the only thing we'd put in the document was that we detect on media type 15:20:07 <webr3> Manu: anybody disagree with triggering of media type to get the correct profile? 15:20:48 <Steven> q+ 15:20:58 <manu> Manu: So we trigger off of "application/xhtml+xml" or "text/html" or "application/xml" (or whatever the proper mime-types are) 15:21:05 <manu> ack steven 15:21:17 <webr3> general agreement heard (nobody disagrees) 15:21:59 <webr3> Ivan: I am uneasy with the text: "Prefixes and terms MAY be /updated/ if the new meaning of the term or prefix is semantically backwards compatible with the previous term or prefix." 15:22:36 <webr3> Manu: example for this is dublin core, dc11 vs dcterms - dc tried to make sure terms were "supported" in new vocab 15:22:51 <webr3> .. you could change vocab uri and have same meaning 15:23:09 <webr3> ivan: no that's wrong, the two are very different, from rdf point of view 15:23:53 <webr3> manu: i said semantically because the meaning hasn't changed domain + range setting still means property means "title" 15:24:06 <webr3> manu: how are they not the same? 15:24:29 <webr3> ivan: because RDF and other tooling sees things differently, takign in to account these new statements 15:24:42 <webr3> ivan: as a rule we should say, prefixes and terms should nto be changed 15:25:07 <Steven> Why commit ourselves one way or the other? 15:25:33 <webr3> shane: I don't know if I agree w/ ivan, let's consider og: (opengraph for a while...) [considers] 15:25:35 <manu> Only because we're trying to give guidance to vocabulary authors, Steven. 15:26:08 <webr3> ... og may change data at their uri, updating it - if that's correct why isn't the other? 15:26:30 <webr3> ivan: that's correct, this is a problem at sem web level and RDFa should not even attempt to solve 15:26:32 <manu> Steven, I don't think we're trying to commit ourselves - just give guidance? (but we may be accidentally committing ourselves) 15:27:12 <webr3> ... what manu proposes is that the triples will be different (differen uris) 15:27:27 <webr3> q+ to agre w/ ivan 15:28:00 <manu> ack webr3 15:28:00 <Zakim> webr3, you wanted to agre w/ ivan 15:28:30 <manu> q+ to discuss dating 15:28:40 <manu> q- 15:28:56 <webr3> nathan: also people hard code against URIs, we can't have them changing 15:28:59 <ivan> 6. Vocabulary maintainers SHOULD include an 'Expires' header in the HTTP response when a profile is dereferenced via HTTP. RDFa processors MAY use this header to implement local caching of the profiles. 15:29:36 <manu> Nathan: We should also probably put "Last-Modified", etc. 15:30:12 <manu> Nathan: "E-tag" if possible, "Cache-Control"... 15:30:37 <manu> Ivan: Concerned that that's going to be difficult to implement - too complicated. 15:30:47 <manu> Nathan: The server should generate everything correctly. 15:31:08 <webr3> Manu: probably want to write or point to some good guidance on caching 15:31:40 <webr3> Ivan: yes everything is set automatically, but Expires needs set specifically normally 15:31:54 <webr3> Ivan: last thing is dated vs non dated uris for profiles 15:32:28 <manu> q+ to discuss URI dating 15:32:32 <ShaneM> q+ to disagree with ivan's URI propsoal 15:32:39 <webr3> ... I want to suggest we have non dated URI and provide dated too so people can reference explicitly 15:33:03 <manu> ack manu 15:33:03 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to discuss URI dating 15:33:35 <webr3> Manu: I'm fine with versioned URI, issue i have with unversioned is that we could never remove prefixes or terms from it 15:34:01 <manu> Nathan: We also have to keep /terms/ in mind. 15:34:13 <manu> ack shanem 15:34:15 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to disagree with ivan's URI propsoal 15:34:44 <webr3> Shane: I agree w/ you manu - we debated this the other day, it was a light discussion 15:35:14 <webr3> ... if we have a /tr/ space URI then it means we can never remove a prefix 15:35:33 <webr3> ivan: but that's what caching is for 15:35:42 <manu> What happens when somebody does this in 2011: profile="http://w3.org/profiles/htmlrdfa" 15:35:47 <webr3> shane: but as soon as I update to the latest profile, every document stops working 15:36:24 <manu> http://w3.org/profiles/htmlrdfa 15:36:37 <webr3> ivan: but the proposal of manu is to say that we will have a new dated profile where it's lost anyway 15:38:13 <webr3> (scribe misses what manu says, he seems to be going against the idea of unversioned uris) 15:38:59 <webr3> ivan: we removed any way to tell what version of RDFa is being used 15:39:00 <manu> Manu: I think that we need to either have a versioned or dated URI 15:39:30 <webr3> ivan: maybe we need to have version in there again (?) 15:40:01 <webr3> manu: we tell people not to use profiles if they want interop, if they do want to use a profile they should mention which profile specifically 15:40:31 <webr3> ... and our fallback is, if they haven't done any of it, we'll use the latest default profile to try and get some triples out 15:40:59 <webr3> ... so we have levels of protection 15:41:06 <webr3> ivan: okay, i see what you mean... 15:41:39 <webr3> ivan: I think it's fine then, let's just not use "2011" in the uri 15:41:55 <manu> What about http://w3.org/profiles/rdfa11 and http://w3.org/profiles/htmlrdfa11 ? 15:41:57 <webr3> manu: k, mmm, k 15:42:03 <manu> What about http://w3.org/profiles/rdfa1.1 and http://w3.org/profiles/htmlrdfa1.1 ? 15:42:11 <manu> What about http://w3.org/profiles/rdfa1 and http://w3.org/profiles/htmlrdfa1 ? 15:42:16 <webr3> nathan: remembers Ivan is goign to speak to w3c for guidance on this 15:43:03 <webr3> manu: any other concerns? 15:43:55 <manu> Nathan: I think it's about as good and close as we can get - I don't like default profiles, but I don't think others agree with that viewpoint, so this is as good as we get. 15:44:24 <ivan> ISSUE-73? 15:44:24 <trackbot> ISSUE-73 -- The RDFa WG needs to determine how each RDFa Profile document is managed -- open 15:44:24 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/73 15:44:36 <webr3> manu: ivan you had 73? can you type up a response LC one? 15:45:00 <webr3> ivan: it was raised by manu sporney, do we need to reply to him? 15:45:27 <ivan> issue-78? 15:45:27 <trackbot> ISSUE-78 -- Should we have default prefixes and terms for host languages -- open 15:45:27 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/78 15:46:58 <webr3> [general conversation about who LC replies to 78] 15:47:18 <manu> ACTION: Manu to write up RDFa Profile Management on RDFa Wiki 15:47:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-60 - Write up RDFa Profile Management on RDFa Wiki [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-02-17]. 15:47:30 <webr3> manu: I'll put a draft response on wiki, Ivan will clean up and respond properly 15:48:03 <webr3> manu: I'll do the response to 73 15:48:06 <manu> ACTION: Manu to respond to ISSUE-73 15:48:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-61 - Respond to ISSUE-73 [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-02-17]. 15:48:30 <webr3> Ivan: next step will be at some point, what will be the initial content in these profiles? 15:48:57 <webr3> manu: later, lets do it later please 15:49:29 <webr3> shane: it's a last call issue to define these as part of the docs going out 15:50:20 <webr3> ... we can't do it once it goes out, contents of default profile is tied to the spec, we need to get consensus, lc-wise, to it 15:50:31 <ivan> q+ 15:50:39 <webr3> manu: that effectively says we shouldn't change the default profile after it goes to rec.. 15:50:57 <manu> ack ivan 15:51:05 <webr3> ... we could just define the minimum possible.. 15:51:33 <webr3> ivan: i think we could do the following.. there is a core set of terms and prefixes we just need, we have to pop them in and collect them 15:51:48 <webr3> ... what we should set up is the mechanism whereby the resolution will happen 15:54:00 <webr3> ivan: let's only put in w3c well knows first, rdf: for example 15:54:20 <webr3> ... then open up mechanism after rec to add new things 15:55:11 <webr3> q+ to ask if any other spec references a "moving part" 15:55:22 <manu> ack webr3 15:55:22 <Zakim> webr3, you wanted to ask if any other spec references a "moving part" 15:56:09 <webr3> nathan: does any other rec have this moving part to it? 15:56:27 <webr3> ivan/steven: yes, plenty xml related to 15:56:52 <webr3> manu: okay so we don't think this will hurt our LC 15:58:04 <webr3> ... we need terms and prefixes to add 15:58:06 <manu> ACTION: Nathan to put together list of prefixes and terms for default profiles 15:58:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-62 - Put together list of prefixes and terms for default profiles [on Nathan Rixham - due 2011-02-17]. 15:58:12 <webr3> nathan: I'll do that 15:58:20 <webr3> manu: top of the hour 15:59:31 <webr3> ivan: how about edits? 15:59:41 <webr3> shane: how should i do them, edit or propose edits? 15:59:54 <webr3> manu: let's not get stuck behind the bike shed 16:00:20 <webr3> ... my preference is just to edit the spec 16:00:30 <webr3> shane: that's fine w/ me, that's my preference too 16:00:38 <webr3> [general agreement] 16:00:43 <Zakim> -ShaneM 16:00:44 <Zakim> -Knud 16:00:44 <Zakim> -Steven 16:00:45 <Zakim> -manu 16:00:49 <ivan> zakim, drop me 16:00:51 <Knud> Knud has left #rdfa 16:00:52 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected 16:00:54 <Zakim> -Ivan 16:00:59 <Zakim> -webr3 16:01:08 <webr3> meeting ended 16:01:15 <webr3> tracker, make draft minutes 16:01:31 <webr3> rrsagent, make draft minutes 16:01:31 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make draft minutes', webr3. Try /msg RRSAgent help 16:01:48 <webr3> rrsagent, draft minutes 16:01:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/10-rdfa-minutes.html webr3 16:02:02 <webr3> np # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000207