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Chatlog 2010-10-28
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13:58:52 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa 13:58:52 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/10/28-rdfa-irc 13:58:54 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 13:58:56 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332 13:58:56 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes 13:58:57 <trackbot> Meeting: RDFa Working Group Teleconference 13:58:57 <trackbot> Date: 28 October 2010 13:59:08 <manu1> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010Oct/0279.html 13:59:11 <manu1> Chair: Manu 13:59:23 <manu1> Present: Benjamin, Ivan, Knud, Manu, Steven, Nathan, Shane 14:00:05 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started 14:00:06 <Zakim> +??P36 14:00:24 <Zakim> + +3539149aaaa 14:00:24 <Zakim> - +3539149aaaa 14:00:24 <Zakim> + +3539149aaaa 14:00:54 <Zakim> +??P43 14:01:05 <manu1> zakim, I am ?P43 14:01:05 <Zakim> sorry, manu1, I do not see a party named '?P43' 14:01:08 <manu1> zakim, I am P43 14:01:08 <Zakim> sorry, manu1, I do not see a party named 'P43' 14:01:12 <manu1> zakim, I am ??P43 14:01:12 <Zakim> +manu1; got it 14:01:16 <Knud> zakim, I am aaaa 14:01:16 <Zakim> +Knud; got it 14:01:23 <Knud> zakim, mute me 14:01:23 <Zakim> Knud should now be muted 14:01:23 <nathan> zakim, I am ??P36 14:01:24 <Zakim> +nathan; got it 14:01:25 <Zakim> +ShaneM 14:01:42 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa 14:01:45 <manu1> zakim, who is on the call? 14:01:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see nathan, Knud (muted), manu1, ShaneM 14:05:17 <Zakim> +??P26 14:05:17 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617 14:05:18 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made 14:05:18 <Zakim> +Steven 14:05:44 <Benjamin> zakim, I am ??P26 14:05:44 <Zakim> +Benjamin; got it 14:06:02 <Benjamin> zakim, mute me 14:06:02 <Zakim> Benjamin should now be muted 14:09:54 <manu1> Scribe: Nathan 14:10:01 <manu1> scribenick: nathan 14:10:46 <nathan> Topic: XHTML+RDFa preparation for LC 14:12:11 <nathan> ShaneM: I'm available over the next couple of weeks to get LC ready 14:14:09 <nathan> manu1: Knud and Thomas Steiner will have comments in by weekend, try to get a straw poll next thursday, Stephen and Ivan to send via mailing list as away next week 14:15:09 <nathan> manu1: provisional LC publishing date Tuesday 9th November 14:15:15 <nathan> manu1: Any objections to this approach and schedule? 14:15:15 <nathan> No objections noted. 14:15:17 <nathan> Topic: RDFa Core Test Suite 14:16:16 <nathan> manu1: thinking this time around we can spend less time discussing test suite on telecon and encourage test submission via mailing list and github from implementers 14:16:36 <ShaneM> q+ to talk about test suite control 14:17:02 <nathan> manu1: implementers can / will naturally provide review and feedback for Test Suite, no need for us to spend precious telecon time on that. 14:17:16 <manu1> ack shanem 14:17:16 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to talk about test suite control 14:18:15 <nathan> ShaneM: I agree with process, think that if you're submitting a test case you should submit it for all host languages (XHTML1, HTML4 and HTML5) 14:19:39 <nathan> ShaneM: there was a bottleneck last time for getting tests in to the manifest, would be good to have this bottleneck cleared this time 14:20:22 <nathan> manu1: manifests are all on github and are easily managed, manifests contain full details of each test, clarification on bottleneck? 14:21:13 <nathan> ShaneM: perhaps bottleneck has been cleared previously.. how are you suggesting I add a test case? 14:21:29 <nathan> manu1: normal github process - check out source code, commit changes, request pull, etc 14:21:43 <nathan> ShaneM: okay, great 14:22:57 <ShaneM> (maybe reserve the right to have test issues raised to a call?) 14:23:08 <nathan> manu1: clarify, we are removing discussion of tests from telecons and moving to mailing list process, tests can be discussed on telecon if they're generating conflict and cannot be resolved on the list. 14:23:47 <nathan> Topic: RDFa API 14:23:53 <nathan> scribenick: manu1 14:24:29 <manu1> Nathan: There are several issues w/ RDFa API while implementing over the last 2-3 months 14:24:39 <manu1> Nathan: Some of them are small issues, fairly easy to fix 14:24:54 <manu1> Nathan: Some of them require a restructuring around DataStore - good chunk of time to sort that out. 14:25:03 <manu1> Nathan: Perhaps we can clear up some of the smaller issues today? 14:25:15 <manu1> Nathan: I sent an e-mail to mailing list yesterday about this 14:25:21 <nathan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010Oct/0310.html 14:25:53 <manu1> Nathan: We have no way in the API at the moment to see if two nodes are equal. 14:26:09 <manu1> Subtopic: ISSUE-49 RDFNode type, equality and canonicalization 14:26:23 <manu1> Nathan: It's a simple proposal, add a .equals() method to RDFNode. 14:26:47 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip 14:26:54 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made 14:26:56 <Zakim> +Ivan 14:27:51 <manu1> Nathan: Second sub-issue is how do we canonicalize? 14:29:05 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/49 14:30:11 <ivan> Nathan means, we should canonicalize according to NT, like so: <http://dfasfasd.asdfasda> 14:30:32 <manu1> Manu: I'm concerned that we're making a decision to officially support N-Triples. 14:30:48 <manu1> q+ to discuss NTriples for RDFTriples. 14:31:12 <manu1> Ivan: No, we're just stating a canonicalization format. 14:31:15 <manu1> ack manu 14:31:15 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to discuss NTriples for RDFTriples. 14:33:02 <manu1> Manu: I know we're talking canonicalization, but we're also saying that we're going to serialize to NTriples to do that and provide an API hook to serialize to NT. 14:33:07 <manu1> Nathan: That's correct. 14:34:41 <manu1> Ivan: This is what happens in rdflib 14:35:02 <manu1> Ivan: rdflib will create NTriples to serialize the string. 14:35:04 <ivan> zakim, who is here? 14:35:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see nathan, Knud (muted), manu1, ShaneM, Benjamin (muted), Steven, Ivan 14:35:07 <Zakim> On IRC I see ShaneM, RRSAgent, Benjamin, Knud, Steven, trackbot, Zakim, manu1, ivan, nathan 14:35:29 <manu1> Nathan: The other issues is the NoInterfaceObject, which means typeof() will return "undefined" 14:35:44 <manu1> Nathan: There is no way to know if a plain literals is what it is. 14:36:08 <manu1> Nathan: We also need a way to expose which interface is implemented. nodeType property or something of that sort. 14:37:38 <Benjamin> I like and support these changes 14:37:41 <manu1> Ivan: We should call toNT() something like toCanonical() 14:39:49 <manu1> General agreement that the changes that Nathan proposes are good and the group wants to make them. 14:40:21 <manu1> Subtopic: ISSUE-55 Specifying that implementations must implement TypedLiteralConverters for all xsd numerical types 14:40:28 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/55 14:41:38 <manu1> Nathan: Basically, we should support all the basic xsd: number types 14:41:54 <manu1> Manu: So, the default context in RDFa API should provide all these type converters by default? 14:42:36 <manu1> Nathan: Yes, RDFa implementations MUST support typed literal converters for basic xsd: numerical types 14:42:44 <manu1> Ivan: What about dates? 14:43:00 <manu1> Nathan: Supporting xsd:date is already in the spec. 14:43:09 <manu1> Nathan: We support xsd:date xsd:dateTime etc. 14:43:28 <manu1> Nathan: This change is specifically about numerical types. 14:44:18 <manu1> Manu: How do we get rid of typed literal converters? 14:44:22 <manu1> Nathan: That's another issue in the issue tracker. 14:44:57 <manu1> From the issue: support types like these (xsd:int/double/decimal/unsigned* positive* etc.) 14:46:09 <manu1> General agreement from the group that we want to support this mechanism. 14:47:42 <manu1> Subtopic: ISSUE-58: PlainLiteral and TypedLiteral value for strings 14:48:20 <manu1> Nathan: What is the value for a plain literal when you have special characters? Should the output be encoded into JavaScript? 14:48:30 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/58 14:49:00 <manu1> Ivan: What is the rule in RDFa? We copy the bytes verbatim unicode? 14:49:04 <manu1> Shane: Yes, that is correct. 14:49:19 <nathan> Primarily, if we have the following triple: 14:49:19 <nathan> <#nbsp> <http://example.com/lit> "Hello \n\tWorld." . 14:49:19 <nathan> Do we expect the related call to object.toString() and/or object.value to return 14:49:19 <nathan> "Hello \n\tWorld." 14:49:19 <nathan> or 14:49:20 <nathan> "Hello 14:49:22 <nathan> World." 14:49:23 <manu1> Shane: Actually, it's not in unicode, we don't change the document encoding - we copy directly. 14:50:02 <manu1> Manu: It's the second one. 14:50:17 <manu1> Shane: The data isn't transformed, if you need to transform it, you have to do it - JSON-encode it, whatever. 14:50:24 <manu1> Nathan: Great, that works. 14:51:24 <manu1> General agreement that we do not attempt to encode the plain literal data in any way, we pass the data through. 14:52:59 <manu1> Subtopic: ISSUE-57: TypedLiteralConverter Failures and Exceptions 14:53:01 <nathan> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/57 14:54:01 <manu1> Nathan: I'm proposing that we don't generate any exceptions. 14:54:05 <manu1> Manu: I agree that we shouldn't generate any exceptions. 14:57:08 <manu1> Nathan: There is a third option - null or undefined. 14:57:18 <manu1> Nathan: Having out-of-band information may be messy. 14:57:36 <manu1> Nathan: When you use complex types, it could become messy. 14:57:58 <manu1> Nathan: Just returning the same thing that was passed in may be impossible. 14:59:18 <manu1> Manu: Perhaps we should use 'undefined' instead of 'null' 14:59:24 <ShaneM> I can't imagine a type literal that would need to map to undefined? 14:59:34 <manu1> Ivan: What's the style in webapps programming? 'null' or 'undefined' 15:00:02 <manu1> Nathan: This is a slightly different case - normally you'd be dealing w/ booleans, strings, integers, etc. 15:00:15 <manu1> Nathan: I think this is unique to the RDF API. 15:02:25 <Zakim> -Benjamin 15:02:45 <manu1> Manu: What about if you want to express "\0"? Typed literal converter should return 'null' in this case. 15:03:05 <Benjamin> Benjamin has joined #rdfa 15:03:24 <manu1> <> foaf:name "\0" . 15:03:52 <ShaneM> <> foaf:name "\NULL"^mytype:pointer 15:03:56 <nathan> Nathan: We do have the concept of rdf:nil 15:04:17 <manu1> <> foaf:name "^^mytype:null" . 15:05:05 <manu1> <> foaf:name "^^mytype:undefined" . 15:07:04 <manu1> Manu: I think we should use 'undefined' 15:07:22 <manu1> Nathan: I think we should use 'null' 15:07:47 <manu1> Shane: In XML, you have nil-able values - it's perfectly legal, null would be used in that case. 15:08:05 <manu1> Shane: We should marshall it as something - maybe the empty string, not "null" or something like that. 15:08:10 <manu1> Ivan: empty string is different. 15:08:43 <manu1> Nathan: Could you implement 'undefined' in Python? 15:08:53 <manu1> Ivan: I may be able to use 'None' 15:09:19 <manu1> Shane: You can explicitly check to see if its None, as you can in Perl. 15:09:33 <manu1> Ivan: This is a common idiom in Python. 15:09:35 <manu1> Ivan: 'None' in Python is a keyword and you can check directly for its value. 15:09:40 <manu1> General agreement that a failed conversion for valueOf() should be communicated in-band - using something like 'null' or 'undefined'. Nathan will ask WebApps for guidance for the type used. 15:09:42 <manu1> q+ to end the telecon 15:10:51 <manu1> ack manu1 15:10:51 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to end the telecon 15:14:03 <Zakim> -Steven 15:14:04 <Zakim> -nathan 15:14:06 <Zakim> -Knud 15:14:10 <Zakim> -ShaneM 15:14:11 <Zakim> -manu1 15:14:12 <ivan> zakim, drop me 15:14:12 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected 15:14:14 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended 15:14:16 <Zakim> Attendees were +3539149aaaa, manu1, Knud, nathan, ShaneM, Steven, Benjamin, Ivan # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000192