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Chatlog 2010-09-16
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13:53:51 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa 13:53:51 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/16-rdfa-irc 13:53:53 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 13:53:53 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfa 13:53:55 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332 13:53:55 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes 13:53:56 <trackbot> Meeting: RDFa Working Group Teleconference 13:53:56 <trackbot> Date: 16 September 2010 13:53:59 <manu1> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010Sep/0081.html 13:54:02 <manu1> Chair: Manu 13:54:14 <manu1> Present: Steven, Manu, Toby, MarkB, Knud, Shane 13:56:42 <manu1> Regrets: Ivan, Benjamin 13:56:42 <manu1> scribenick: Knud 13:57:41 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has joined #rdfa 13:58:11 <markbirbeck> zakim, codes? 13:58:11 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, markbirbeck. 13:58:13 <tinkster> tinkster has joined #rdfa 13:58:17 <markbirbeck> zakim, code? 13:58:18 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), markbirbeck 13:59:02 <Knud> Knud has joined #rdfa 14:00:24 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started 14:00:32 <Zakim> +??P27 14:00:40 <manu1> zakim, I am ??P27 14:00:40 <Zakim> +manu1; got it 14:01:58 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617 14:01:58 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made 14:01:59 <Zakim> +Steven 14:03:30 <Zakim> +Knud 14:03:32 <Knud> zakim, mute me 14:03:45 <Zakim> Knud should now be muted 14:04:19 <Zakim> +ShaneM 14:04:21 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa 14:08:23 <Zakim> +??P2 14:08:31 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am ? 14:08:31 <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it 14:09:11 <Knud> TOPIC: RDFa API Heartbeat publication 14:09:28 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/drafts/2010/WD-rdfa-api-20100912/ 14:10:00 <Knud> manu: this version includes all of Ivan's comments, incl. two class diagrams 14:10:15 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/drafts/2010/WD-rdfa-api-20100912/#the-rdf-interfaces 14:10:31 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/drafts/2010/WD-rdfa-api-20100912/#the-linked-data-interfaces 14:11:07 <Knud> ... still not 100% perfect, need to be adapted 14:11:12 <markbirbeck> q+ 14:11:58 <manu1> ack mark 14:12:06 <Knud> ... diff still needs to be created 14:12:17 <Knud> mark: document looks pretty good! 14:12:56 <Knud> manu: for certain things, there are still issue markers in the document 14:14:04 <manu1> PROPOSAL: Publish the latest RDFa API draft as a heartbeat draft, adding diff-marked version: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/drafts/2010/WD-rdfa-api-20100912/ 14:14:14 <manu1> +1 14:14:14 <markbirbeck> +1 14:14:17 <Knud> Knud: +1 14:14:19 <tinkster> +1 14:14:32 <ShaneM> +1 14:14:35 <Steven> +1 14:14:38 <Knud> (Ivan and Benjamin gave their approval for publication in W3C-archived team e-mail and public RDFa WG mailing list, respectively) 14:14:50 <manu1> RESOLVED: Publish the latest RDFa draft as a heartbeat draft, adding diff-marked version: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/drafts/2010/WD-rdfa-api-20100912/ 14:15:12 <Knud> TOPIC: Signal RDF/SemWeb/Linked Data of RDFa Heartbeat publication 14:16:18 <Knud> manu: we need to involve the RDF community into the RDFa API, because they feel we are in fact creating an RDF API 14:17:07 <Knud> ... groups to contact: SWIG, RDF-Core, browser vendors, ... 14:17:44 <markbirbeck> q+ 14:17:48 <Knud> ... LOD community 14:18:33 <tinkster> webapps wg! 14:19:46 <Knud> steven: possible problem: our charter doesn't ask us to do anything more general than an RDFa API 14:20:25 <manu1> ack mark 14:21:30 <Knud> mark: see last call, Ivan: changing the name should be discussed internally 14:22:19 <Knud> ... publish heartbeat first, then carefully find out what the community thinks: is the general nature of our API a problem? 14:22:54 <Knud> ... if we get pushback, we might think about what we could remove from the API 14:23:24 <Knud> ... we have a good architecture in place, now we can possible factor out some things 14:23:30 <manu1> q+ to discuss extending the charter re: RDFa API 14:23:40 <Knud> ... we should leave as is for now 14:23:41 <manu1> ack 14:24:05 <Knud> manu: extending the charter is possible, but probably the last thing we want to do 14:24:22 <markbirbeck> q+ 14:24:37 <manu1> ack 14:24:39 <manu1> ack 14:24:42 <Knud> ... we have a good story about integrating things like microdata, etc. 14:24:44 <manu1> ack manu1 14:24:44 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to discuss extending the charter re: RDFa API 14:24:48 <manu1> ack markbirbeck 14:24:52 <Knud> ... so maybe we _do_ want to change the charter? 14:25:04 <Knud> mark: maybe we should let the community ask us to do this? 14:25:50 <Knud> ... then we would have a discussion, and a good argument for changing the charter 14:27:49 <Knud> manu: judging from respnse to sandro h's questionnaire, there is a lot of interest in where RDF goes next 14:28:11 <Knud> ... but there wasn't a question on an RDF API, so we don't know how much desire there is for one yet? 14:28:56 <Knud> ... anyway, we should start getting a lot of feedback for the RDFa API 14:29:27 <Knud> TOPIC: Processing remote documents via RDFa API 14:29:37 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/44 14:30:13 <Knud> manu: concern is: how do we make sure the API can process triples from external/remote documents 14:30:37 <Knud> ... security issues 14:31:52 <Knud> ... CORS might solve this in the future 14:32:07 <Knud> (http://www.w3.org/TR/cors/) 14:32:46 <Knud> ... this discussion is important e.g. for getting RDFa profile document 14:35:32 <markbirbeck> q+ 14:35:38 <manu1> ack mark 14:35:57 <Knud> ... we could be bold and suggest a special kind of communication policy for fetching RDFa documents 14:36:33 <Knud> mark: maybe suport some other formats 14:36:55 <Knud> ... don't think security is our concern (at the spec level) 14:37:10 <Knud> ... don't talk about http requests, cookies, CORS, etc. at the spec level 14:37:14 <manu1> q+ to discuss CORS vs. no cookies. 14:38:51 <Knud> ... we could move away from expressing profiles in RDFa and then use a policy such as for iframes, css, etc. 14:39:28 <ShaneM> I agree with Mark - rely upon other specs. 14:39:38 <manu1> ack manu1 14:39:38 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to discuss CORS vs. no cookies. 14:39:56 <ShaneM> but I wouldn't object to an implementors guide 14:40:11 <Knud> manu: I don't think there is any particular other spec we can rely on for the cookie problem 14:40:48 <Knud> ... what makes RDFa unique is that currently, there isn't a whole lot of RDFa out there 14:41:28 <Knud> ... this gives us the opportunity to start from a blank slate. We can establish policies, best practices. 14:41:45 <markbirbeck> q+ 14:42:00 <ShaneM> q+ to ask why this is more serious for us? 14:42:35 <manu1> ack mark 14:44:14 <manu1> q+ to discuss creating a wall for the developer 14:44:32 <manu1> ack shanem 14:44:32 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to ask why this is more serious for us? 14:45:34 <Knud> shanem: it might be good to provide implementation guidance as non-normative text ... 14:45:54 <Knud> ... but be probably can really defer this to other specs 14:45:56 <manu1> ack manu 14:45:56 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to discuss creating a wall for the developer 14:46:17 <Knud> ... yes, we have an opportunity here, but I don't want one. I don't see why. 14:46:21 <markbirbeck> agree with ShaneM 14:47:44 <Knud> manu: if the developer were to fetch a remote documents, they would not have access to that complete document, but only to the extracted triples 14:49:45 <manu1> q+ to say that we can "violate" the security model. 14:50:06 <Knud> mark: but we have to rely on xml-http request anyway - we can't add any other ways of accessing documents 14:50:21 <manu1> ack manu1 14:50:21 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to say that we can "violate" the security model. 14:50:24 <Knud> ... we have to build on the existing stack, which has its own rules, which we inherit 14:51:30 <ShaneM> q+ to talk about data in RDFa 14:51:36 <markbirbeck> q+ 14:51:42 <manu1> ack shane 14:51:42 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to talk about data in RDFa 14:51:47 <Knud> manu: again: we might be in the position to actually establish a _new_ security model for RDFa, which could be different than for HTML pages 14:51:53 <tinkster> For in-browser JS implementations, we have to build on XHR, so must inherit its limitations. For native browser implementations, and non-browser implementations, we needn't inherit those limitations. 14:52:50 <manu1> ack mark 14:52:56 <Knud> mark: this sounds a bit naive. Just because the data is in RDFa, it doesn't mean it's not sensitive! 14:53:06 <Knud> s/mark/shanem 14:53:18 <ShaneM> I agree with tinkster - but I think that means we need to appreciate the limitations of the minimum. 14:53:50 <manu1> q+ to disagree that it's not desirable. 14:54:51 <Knud> mark: we don't need to discuss CORS, cookies, etc. We just need to rely on the security stack in the browser. 14:54:56 <ShaneM> I agree with mark on this. native browser implementations should adhere to the stack just like a JS implementation would. 14:54:57 <manu1> ack manu 14:54:57 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to disagree that it's not desirable. 14:56:04 <markbirbeck> q+ 14:56:37 <markbirbeck> Definitely agree with that. 14:56:58 <manu1> ack mark 14:57:11 <Knud> manu: maybe get some browser implementers input to see what they think 14:57:51 <manu1> q+ to discuss research at our company on bypassing CORS. 14:58:34 <Knud> mark: yes, getting things from other places (remote documents) is desirable. Something has to be done about it. But probably not in our spec. 14:59:21 <Knud> shanem: "What, does the Semantic Web require a Web?!" 15:02:29 <manu1> ack manu1 15:02:29 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to discuss research at our company on bypassing CORS. 15:02:36 <manu1> q+ to end the telecon 15:04:00 <manu1> PROPOSAL: RDFa API heartbeat draft to be published next Thursday (2010-09-23). 15:04:08 <Knud> Knud: +1 15:04:09 <markbirbeck> +1 15:04:11 <manu1> +1 15:04:13 <ShaneM> +1 15:04:40 <manu1> RESOLVED: RDFa API heartbeat draft to be published next Thursday (2010-09-23). # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000168