Chatlog 2010-05-20

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13:46:53 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
13:46:53 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/05/20-rdfa-irc
13:47:17 <manu> manu has changed the topic to: RDFa WG telecon: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010May/0088.html  (manu)
13:47:26 <manu> trackbot, prepare telecon
13:47:28 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
13:47:30 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332
13:47:30 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 13 minutes
13:47:31 <trackbot> Meeting: RDFa Working Group Teleconference
13:47:31 <trackbot> Date: 20 May 2010
13:47:41 <manu> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010May/0088.html
13:47:44 <manu> Chair: Manu
13:47:53 <manu> Present: Ivan, Manu, MarkB, BenjaminA, Steven, Knud, Toby
13:48:15 <manu> Regrets: BenA, ShaneM
13:50:58 <Benjamin> Benjamin has joined #rdfa
13:54:08 <Knud> Knud has joined #rdfa
13:56:09 <dongmei> dongmei has joined #rdfa
13:59:34 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started
13:59:41 <Zakim> + +03539149aaaa
13:59:55 <Zakim> +[MIT528]
14:00:18 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:00:27 <manu> zakim, I am IPcaller
14:00:27 <Zakim> ok, manu, I now associate you with [IPcaller]
14:00:54 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
14:00:54 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
14:00:56 <Zakim> +Ivan
14:01:24 <Zakim> + +49.631.205.7.aabb
14:01:28 <manu> zakim, ?aaaa is Knud
14:01:28 <Zakim> sorry, manu, I do not recognize a party named '?aaaa'
14:01:42 <manu> zakim, aaaa is Knud
14:01:42 <Zakim> +Knud; got it
14:01:52 <Zakim> +tinkster
14:01:52 <manu> zakim, aabb is BenjaminA
14:02:02 <Zakim> +BenjaminA; got it
14:02:28 <markbirbeck> markbirbeck has joined #rdfa
14:04:04 <manu> zakim, who is on the call?
14:04:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see Knud (muted), [MIT528] (muted), [IPcaller], Ivan, BenjaminA, tinkster
14:04:11 <tinkster> tinkster has joined #rdfa
14:04:38 <tinkster> zakim, who's on the phone?
14:04:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see Knud (muted), [MIT528] (muted), [IPcaller], Ivan, BenjaminA, tinkster
14:04:50 <tinkster> zakim, mute me
14:04:50 <Zakim> tinkster should now be muted
14:06:01 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
14:06:01 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
14:06:32 <Zakim> + +0208761aacc
14:06:32 <Benjamin> scribenick: Benjamin
14:06:41 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am ?aacc
14:06:41 <Zakim> sorry, markbirbeck, I do not see a party named '?aacc'
14:06:53 <manu> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010May/0088.html
14:06:59 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am aacc
14:06:59 <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it
14:08:11 <Benjamin> ivan: let's discuss ISSUE-6 with Shane
14:10:20 <Benjamin> Topic: RDFa DOM API Status Update
14:10:27 <Benjamin> manu: Mark and Manu discussed issues on integrating both RDFa DOM API proposals
14:10:49 <Benjamin> ... Benjamin is ok with the changes.
14:11:13 <manu> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdfa-dom-api/
14:11:25 <Benjamin> markbirbeck: Excellent work manu!
14:11:42 <Benjamin> manu: changes are highlighted on the mailing list
14:12:32 <Benjamin> ... what we had was a low level API covering RDF types and some basic methods for retrieving triples
14:13:27 <Benjamin> ... Mark had many ideas to improve that and proposed to use this API even for other language formats (microformats, vcard, ...) than RDFa.
14:14:19 <Benjamin> ... added concepts of parser and store into the API and wrote about how to initialize the API
14:15:05 <Benjamin> ... We agreed on a much more gentle introduction of the document
14:15:38 <Benjamin> ... Is this the right direction?
14:16:29 <Benjamin> ivan: wrote my oppinion in the mailing list.
14:17:02 <Benjamin> ...  Finally, we should split parts of the document into several documents
14:17:47 <Benjamin> ... It's hard to understand the document because of the different levels that are mentioned.
14:18:31 <Benjamin> ... Ordinary users may be confused by too technical parts (e.g., store, parsers)
14:19:50 <Benjamin> ... in an Appendix a clean IDL specification of the API should exist
14:20:58 <Benjamin> ... The examples  do not specify enough what is happening underneath
14:22:35 <Benjamin> manu: We plan to have implementation details in section 3 and 4.
14:22:45 <manu> zakim, q?
14:22:45 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
14:22:58 <markbirbeck> q+
14:23:17 <Benjamin> ivan: The document should be edited more as manual or reference guide.
14:24:06 <Benjamin> q+
14:24:11 <manu> ack markbirbeck
14:25:36 <Benjamin> markbirbeck: We can move several specifications and examples to be more self explanatory.
14:26:19 <manu> ack benjamin
14:26:51 <manu> q+
14:26:59 <manu> Benjamin: I'm wondering about who the audience is for this?
14:27:21 <manu> Benjamin: Maybe we want to have different sections for different readers.
14:28:27 <Benjamin> ivan: man target group are developers but for a while users won't have any other document source than this specification
14:28:57 <markbirbeck> s/man target/main target/
14:29:40 <Benjamin> manu: The HTML WG also discuss on existing difficult specifications. Anyway specifications should read like an O'Reilly book.
14:29:47 <tinkster> q+
14:29:49 <markbirbeck> q+ To comment on end-users needing to be able to use specs.
14:30:01 <Benjamin> ... we have two target groups, developers and users
14:30:02 <manu> ack IPcaller
14:30:02 <tinkster> zakim, unmute me
14:30:03 <Zakim> tinkster should no longer be muted
14:30:12 <manu> ack [IPcaller]
14:30:44 <Benjamin> tinkster: We should publish an extra document with examples that reads like a Primer
14:30:51 <manu> ack mark
14:30:51 <Zakim> markbirbeck, you wanted to comment on end-users needing to be able to use specs.
14:30:55 <tinkster> zakim, mute me
14:30:55 <Zakim> tinkster should now be muted
14:31:01 <manu> ack tinkster
14:31:13 <tinkster> zakim, mute me
14:31:13 <Zakim> tinkster should now be muted
14:32:21 <Benjamin> markbirbeck: A Primer will set off pressure of this document. But a single document will preserve what is really meant to happen in the specification instead of having multiple documents like they exist for RDF(S).
14:32:51 <Benjamin> q+
14:33:44 <manu> ack Benjamin
14:34:06 <manu> Benjamin: Having read the document, I don't think we need to strip the document into separate documents.
14:34:42 <manu> Benjamin: We may want several sections Beginner Users vs. Advanced Developers vs. Implementers
14:34:48 <markbirbeck> q+ 
14:35:02 <manu> Benjamin: I think it's okay to repeat ourselves throughout the document.
14:36:08 <markbirbeck> :)
14:36:10 <manu> ack mark
14:36:46 <manu> Mark: I don't think that we'll repeat ourselves as much as you think we will.
14:36:51 <Benjamin> manu: Can we publish a FPWD of this API in two weeks?
14:37:57 <markbirbeck> Mark: Agree with Benjamin that we shouldn't be scared of repeating ourselves in each section (with later sections being more detailed than previous ones). However, since we have some interfaces that are aimed at web developers only, and some interfaces that are aimed at more experienced programmers, then early sections will have different content to later ones.
14:38:06 <Benjamin> ivan: If we integrate the issues we are discussing here into this document, we can do a FPWD.
14:38:10 <tinkster> zakim, unmu8te me
14:38:10 <Zakim> I don't understand 'unmu8te me', tinkster
14:38:14 <tinkster> zakim, unmute me
14:38:14 <Zakim> tinkster should no longer be muted
14:39:13 <Benjamin> tinkster: The API has a different shape than the current document.
14:39:18 <tinkster> zakim, mute me
14:39:18 <Zakim> tinkster should now be muted
14:40:18 <manu> Topic: ISSUE-8: Parsing CURIE lists (on Shane)
14:40:26 <manu>    http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/8
14:41:11 <Benjamin> manu: We never specified handling whitespaces in RDFa specs.
14:41:59 <ivan> q+
14:42:02 <manu> ack ivan
14:42:36 <Benjamin> ... e.g. newlines tabs etc. are specified in XML.
14:43:13 <tinkster> Could we recommend that authors always use a single space character?
14:43:16 <Benjamin> ivan: the host language (HTML, or XML dialect) has to specify handling whitespaces.
14:43:20 <tinkster> (as a SHOULD)
14:44:55 <tinkster> HTML5 it seems defers the definition of whitespace to Unicode.
14:46:06 <Benjamin> manu: we may propose that RDFa refers to the host language for handling whitespaces.
14:46:42 <manu> PROPOSAL: RDFa defaults to the Host Language for what constitutes whitespace.
14:46:58 <manu> +1
14:47:00 <Benjamin> +1
14:47:17 <manu> PROPOSAL: RDFa defers to the Host Language for what constitutes whitespace.
14:47:21 <ivan> +1
14:47:23 <markbirbeck> +1
14:47:24 <manu> +1
14:47:28 <tinkster> XML just has 0x20, 0x0D, 0x0A and 0x09
14:47:29 <Benjamin> +1
14:47:30 <Knud> +1
14:47:32 <tinkster> +0.5
14:47:59 <tinkster> (i.e. XML is space, tab, carriage return and newline)
14:48:21 <Benjamin> ivan: Did we leave whitespace handling unclear in the spec?
14:48:52 <tinkster> zakim, unmute me
14:48:52 <Zakim> tinkster should no longer be muted
14:49:07 <Benjamin> ivan: We used a whitespace separated list in CURIE specification. That should be clear enough.
14:49:57 <Steven> Steven has joined #rdfa
14:50:06 <Benjamin> tinkster: Most languages leave whitespace handling and occurances open e.g. in XML and HTML5
14:50:08 <Steven> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:50:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see Knud (muted), [MIT528] (muted), [IPcaller], Ivan, BenjaminA, tinkster, markbirbeck
14:50:16 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
14:50:16 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:50:18 <Zakim> +Steven
14:50:40 <Steven> Apologies, I got my times mixed up.... :-(
14:51:20 <Benjamin> tinkster: we are talking about whitespaces within attributes.
14:51:50 <Benjamin> ... the host language specs does not talk much about that
14:52:04 <Steven> rrsagent, here?
14:52:04 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2010/05/20-rdfa-irc#T14-52-04
14:52:37 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
14:52:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/20-rdfa-minutes.html Steven
14:53:37 <manu> PROPOSAL: RDFa Core specification should specify what constitutes whitespace.
14:53:42 <tinkster> +1
14:53:48 <manu> +1
14:53:49 <ivan> And the definition in XML spec are S	   ::=   	(#x20 | #x9 | #xD | #xA)+
14:53:54 <ivan> +1
14:53:54 <Steven> s/whitespaces in/whitespaces within/
14:53:56 <markbirbeck> s/whitespaces in/whitespaces within/
14:53:58 <Benjamin> +1
14:53:59 <Knud> +1
14:53:59 <markbirbeck> :)
14:54:02 <markbirbeck> +1
14:54:03 <Steven> :-)
14:54:40 <manu> PROPOSAL: RDFa Core specification should specify what constitutes whitespaces within attribute values.
14:57:45 <Benjamin> manu: Anybody disagree with the latest proposal text?
14:55:01 <manu> RESOLVED: RDFa Core specification should specify what constitutes whitespaces within attribute values.
14:55:02 <markbirbeck> :)
14:55:29 <manu> Topic: ISSUE-6: Invalid values in @datatype (on Ivan)
14:55:36 <manu> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/6
14:57:41 <Steven> i/2) ISSUE-8: Parsing CURIE list/Topic: ISSUE-8: Parsing CURIE lists
14:57:44 <Benjamin> ivan: attributes with invalid values should behave like attributes with empty content
14:57:47 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
14:57:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/20-rdfa-minutes.html Steven
14:57:54 <ivan> @attribute="ILLEGALVALUE" is @attribute="" or no attribute at all
14:59:00 <manu> RDFa attributes containing all invalid values should be interpreted as those attributes with an empty attribute value.
14:59:23 <manu> PROPOSAL: RDFa attributes containing all invalid values should be interpreted as those attributes with an empty attribute value.
14:59:26 <ivan> +1
14:59:27 <tinkster> +1
14:59:29 <manu> +1
14:59:35 <Benjamin> ivan: Shane will understand that
14:59:37 <Benjamin> +1
14:59:44 <Steven> "all" or "any"?
14:59:45 <markbirbeck> +1
14:59:49 <Knud> +1
15:00:15 <markbirbeck> all
15:00:27 <manu> RESOLVED: RDFa attributes containing all invalid values should be interpreted as those attributes with an empty attribute value.
15:00:42 <Benjamin> tinkster: we should make an errata for RDFa 1.0 spec
15:01:11 <Steven> Errata are here: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/REC-rdfa-syntax-20081014-errata/
15:02:12 <manu> trackbot, issue Should RDFa allow relative URIs in any CURIE-based attribute?
15:02:12 <trackbot> Sorry, manu, I don't understand 'trackbot, issue Should RDFa allow relative URIs in any CURIE-based attribute?'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
15:02:30 <ivan> Does  TERMorCURIEorURIs allow relative URI-s
15:02:38 <Steven> s/FPWG/FPWD/
15:02:53 <manu> trackbot, ISSUE: Does TermorCURIEorURI allow relative URIs?
15:02:53 <trackbot> Sorry, manu, I don't understand 'trackbot, ISSUE: Does TermorCURIEorURI allow relative URIs?'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
15:02:57 <manu> ISSUE: Does TermorCURIEorURI allow relative URIs?
15:02:57 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-27 - Does TermorCURIEorURI allow relative URIs? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/27/edit .
15:03:19 <manu> ACTION: Shane to errata RDFa attributes containing all invalid values should be interpreted as those attributes with an empty attribute value.
15:03:19 <trackbot> Created ACTION-29 - Errata RDFa attributes containing all invalid values should be interpreted as those attributes with an empty attribute value. [on Shane McCarron - due 2010-05-27].
15:04:19 <Zakim> -tinkster
15:04:23 <Zakim> -markbirbeck
15:04:25 <Zakim> -Knud
15:04:25 <Benjamin> rrsagent, make minutes
15:04:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/20-rdfa-minutes.html Benjamin
15:04:26 <ivan> zakim, drop me
15:04:27 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
15:04:29 <Zakim> -Steven
15:04:33 <Zakim> -[MIT528]
15:04:37 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
15:04:39 <Zakim> -Ivan
15:04:55 <Steven> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:05:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see BenjaminA
15:05:10 <Zakim> -BenjaminA
15:05:11 <Steven> zakim, dro pBenj
15:05:12 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended
15:05:14 <Zakim> Attendees were +03539149aaaa, [MIT528], [IPcaller], Ivan, +49.631.205.7.aabb, Knud, tinkster, BenjaminA, +0208761aacc, markbirbeck, Steven
15:05:17 <Zakim> I don't understand 'dro pBenj', Steven
15:05:24 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:05:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/05/20-rdfa-minutes.html Steven
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