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Chatlog 2010-03-11
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14:17:19 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa 14:17:19 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/11-rdfa-irc 14:17:21 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 14:17:21 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfa 14:17:23 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332 14:17:23 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 43 minutes 14:17:24 <trackbot> Meeting: RDFa Working Group Teleconference 14:17:24 <trackbot> Date: 11 March 2010 14:58:51 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started 14:58:53 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa 14:58:58 <Zakim> +ShaneM 14:59:11 <Steven> Steven has joined #rdfa 14:59:28 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 14:59:33 <manu> zakim, I am [IP 14:59:33 <Zakim> ok, manu, I now associate you with [IPcaller] 14:59:54 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip 14:59:54 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made 14:59:55 <Zakim> +Ivan 15:00:30 <Zakim> +Benjamin 15:01:20 <Zakim> +Knud 15:02:07 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617 15:02:07 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made 15:02:09 <Zakim> +Steven 15:03:00 <Steven> zakim, who is noisy? 15:03:09 <tinkster> tinkster has joined #rdfa 15:03:11 <Zakim> Steven, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ShaneM (62%), [IPcaller] (4%), Knud (27%), Ivan (4%), Steven (5%) 15:03:17 <Zakim> +tinkster 15:03:33 <Knud> zakim, mute me 15:03:33 <Zakim> Knud should now be muted 15:04:32 <Steven> Scribe: Steven 15:05:17 <Steven> Note that the call is one hour earlier for Europeans next week and the week after 15:05:21 <tinkster> I will probably have to send regrets for next two weeks then. 15:05:23 <Steven> zakim, mute me 15:05:23 <Zakim> Steven should now be muted 15:05:35 <Steven> Topic: Action Items 15:05:38 <manu> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/actions/open 15:05:54 <Steven> Manu: Action 5 for Ivan? 15:05:57 <RobW> RobW has joined #rdfa 15:06:12 <Steven> ... mark as done? 15:06:15 <manu> ACTION-5? 15:06:15 <trackbot> ACTION-5 -- Mark Birbeck to generate spec text for pulling in external vocabulary documents -- due 2010-03-18 -- OPEN 15:06:15 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/actions/5 15:06:19 <Steven> Ivan: the discussion is still ongoing 15:06:22 <manu> trackbot, close ACTION-5 15:06:22 <trackbot> ACTION-5 Generate spec text for pulling in external vocabulary documents closed 15:06:46 <manu> trackbot, comment ACTION-5 Ivan produced a merged specification explaining how to pull in external vocabulary documents. 15:06:46 <trackbot> ACTION-5 Generate spec text for pulling in external vocabulary documents notes added 15:06:56 <Steven> Manu: URL for that Ivan? 15:07:04 <Steven> Ivan: Just a moment, watch the IRC 15:07:24 <Steven> Manu: I will fix the descriptions of the list 15:07:28 <ivan> -> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/drafts/2010/ED-vocab-20100305/ vocabulary document (version 1) 15:07:38 <Steven> Regrets: MarkB, Ben_Adida 15:07:52 <Steven> Topic: ISSUE-1 RDFa Vocabularies (on Mark) 15:07:53 <ivan> -> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/drafts/2010/ED-vocab-20100311/ vocabulary document (version 2) 15:07:56 <manu> The things that we may have consensus on: 15:07:58 <manu> * RDFa profiles are specified in an external document (profile document) 15:08:00 <manu> * We should use the @profile attribute to specify the profile document 15:08:01 <manu> * The @profile attribute can be placed on any element and is scoped to the element on which it is defined and its children 15:08:05 <manu> * The profile document is marked up in RDFa, using a vocabulary designed to modify the behavior of the RDFa Processor 15:08:08 <manu> * The default profile document can be specified in the RDFa Core spec. This document will outline what prefixes and tokens are pre-defined 15:08:11 <manu> * The profile document can specify tokens and prefixes 15:08:13 <manu> * One does not use xmlns: to declare prefixes and tokens 15:08:17 <Zakim> +RobW 15:09:22 <ivan> q+ 15:09:33 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes 15:09:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/11-rdfa-minutes.html Steven 15:09:50 <tinkster> ... but that <head profile> applies to *whole* document. 15:09:54 <Steven> Ivan: I'm not sure all of these do have consensus 15:10:05 <Steven> ... such as the xmlns one 15:10:23 <Steven> Chair: Manu 15:10:38 <Zakim> -ShaneM 15:10:41 <Zakim> +ShaneM 15:11:17 <Steven> Manu: I thought there was opposition to the JSON method, so then there was one proposal left 15:11:27 <Steven> Ivan: There are two issues 15:11:46 <Steven> ... whether we use an RDF vocabulary for prefixes and tokens, and then how we serialise 15:12:08 <Steven> ... I thought Mark was not in favour of the first bit 15:12:12 <Steven> ... though I and Ben are 15:12:39 <Steven> Manu: So the last bullet point and what Ivan has just said are dependent on each other 15:12:51 <Steven> ... Mark said we should be able to use xmlns for prefixes and tokens 15:12:55 <Steven> Ivan: You are right 15:13:00 <Steven> ... I am against that as well 15:13:40 <Steven> Manu: There was a problem of leakage of prefixes into the authors document 15:14:36 <Steven> ... we may have consensus on the RDFa as profile bit 15:14:54 <Steven> ... we may want dc and foaf in the predefined prefixes 15:15:13 <Steven> ... we would do that by saying if there is no profile specified then use this one by default 15:15:17 <Steven> ... agree? 15:15:26 <Steven> q+ 15:15:33 <ivan> ack ivan 15:15:39 <Steven> ack me 15:15:50 <manu> Steven: Do we really need to have a default profile? 15:15:56 <ivan> q+ 15:16:26 <Steven> Manu: we wanted to have a default case that was available without using profile 15:16:36 <tinkster> Would the default profile apply to XHTML+RDFa 1.1? or RDFa Core 1.1? 15:17:11 <Steven> Steven: What is the advantage over saying that the defaults are always there? 15:17:37 <Steven> Manu: There are two possibilities: overlaying your profile over the default 15:18:09 <Steven> ... or replacing the default with your profile 15:18:23 <tinkster> Other host languages might prefer different default profiles. 15:18:57 <ivan> q? 15:19:00 <Steven> Manu: Answering Toby's question [scribe missed] 15:19:14 <Steven> Manu: Does ODF have a viewpoint on this? 15:19:19 <Steven> Rob: Not really 15:19:34 <Steven> Manu: I would expect ODF to want a different set of defaults 15:20:08 <Steven> Rob: The vocabs we are seeing in ODF1.2 are about embedded vcards, events etc; no FOAF 15:20:28 <Steven> q+ 15:20:40 <Steven> Ivan: My proposal is we should postpone this discussion 15:20:48 <Steven> ... we don't know what a profile doc will contain 15:21:01 <Steven> ... so the default issue is premature 15:21:32 <Steven> Manu: Fine 15:21:40 <Steven> q- 15:22:07 <ivan> q- 15:22:28 <Steven> Steven: For ODF there is no real problem with always having an explicit @profile, since the authoring arguments don't apply 15:23:03 <Steven> Manu: If we want the concept of a default profile we need to be able to support prefixes in a profile document 15:23:26 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes 15:23:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/11-rdfa-minutes.html Steven 15:23:32 <Steven> Ivan: I think the list if fine 15:23:58 <Steven> ... I'm not sure if we have consensus about dropping JSON 15:24:27 <Steven> Manu: There are security implications associated with it, and CORS will solve it, and so will the RDFa API 15:24:47 <Steven> ... and we don't want to mark up in two different ways 15:24:49 <Steven> q+ 15:25:03 <Steven> Ivan: What does Toby think? 15:25:20 <Steven> Toby: The format should be RDF of some kind 15:25:58 <Steven> ... in any serialisation, but only RDFa is the only required one 15:26:20 <Steven> q? 15:27:18 <ivan> q+ 15:27:18 <Steven> Steven: I think it is the wrong way round - there is no consensus on *adding* JSON 15:27:25 <Steven> Shane: I agree strongly 15:27:41 <manu> The things that we still have to discuss: 15:27:43 <Steven> Manu: I would still like to hear Mark; he will have to fight hard though 15:27:43 <manu> * What happens when you can't dereference the profile document? (Toby's proposal) 15:27:45 <manu> * Are we limiting next/prev/index/license/etc to @rel/@rev or allowing them everywhere? 15:27:46 <ivan> ack Steven 15:27:46 <manu> * What is the mental model are tokens/prefixes two different concepts in RDFa or are they the same thing? 15:27:47 <ivan> q- 15:27:48 <manu> * Are there backwards compatibility issues with the proposed path forward? 15:28:04 <Steven> Ivan: I agree with Toby 15:28:17 <Steven> ... RDFa is the only required serialization 15:28:17 <ShaneM> Me too 15:28:45 <Steven> zakim, mute me 15:28:45 <Zakim> Steven should now be muted 15:29:37 <Steven> Manu: Mark seems to be concerned with the relation between token and prefix 15:29:55 <Steven> ... and there are backward compatibility issues 15:30:04 <Steven> ... Any other issues? 15:30:12 <Steven> Ivan: No 15:30:46 <Steven> ... how will we decide? 15:31:27 <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010Mar/0059 15:31:33 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes 15:31:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/11-rdfa-minutes.html Steven 15:32:17 <Steven> Ivan: We have already had two versions of this document 15:32:50 <Steven> ... I would like to see a feeling for which direction 15:33:45 <Steven> ... we have to move on 15:33:49 <Steven> q+ 15:33:54 <Steven> ack me 15:34:19 <manu> Steven: There is no immediate hurry to move forward - we may want to let this stuff sink in for a while. 15:34:28 <Steven> zakim, mute me 15:34:28 <Zakim> Steven should now be muted 15:35:07 <Steven> Manu: A lot of the decisions are interrelated, and that's why I would like a bit more time to hold back on making a firm decision 15:35:57 <Steven> Manu: I think we should point to the latest document, and then work with that 15:36:48 <Steven> Ivan: The decision on the restriction of tokens to @rel @rev is important 15:36:57 <tinkster> Another possibility is allowing profiles to define keywords that only apply to particular attributes. 15:37:07 <ivan> q+ 15:37:08 <Steven> Manu: Anyone object to allowing all tokens everywhere? 15:37:25 <tinkster> e.g. typeof="Person" 15:38:06 <manu> q+ manu 15:38:10 <manu> ack ivan 15:38:13 <Steven> Ivan: Then the management of keywords and prefixes becomes very different 15:38:21 <Steven> Shane: For an implementation? 15:38:25 <Steven> Ivan: No 15:39:02 <Benjamin> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010Mar/0068.html 15:39:10 <Steven> Topic: RDFa API Direction 15:39:30 <Steven> Benjamin: See the above mail 15:39:35 <Steven> ... why is an API needed? 15:39:49 <Steven> ... I looked at the code of some of the libraries 15:40:03 <Steven> ... and how could an API help to reduce them 15:40:15 <Steven> ... conclusion - most of the code is for HTML attributes 15:40:27 <Steven> ... and so an API could help 15:40:39 <Steven> ... developers have to use some form of recursion 15:40:44 <Steven> ... an API may help that 15:40:55 <tinkster> yes 15:40:56 <Steven> ... I looked at Operator for Firefox 15:40:58 <manu> yes 15:40:59 <Knud> yup 15:41:21 <Steven> ... RDFa DOM API may help for that sort of app 15:41:50 <Steven> ... an API can hide the difference between URIs and CURIEs 15:42:02 <Steven> ... and external definitions in profiles 15:42:12 <manu> q+ 15:43:07 <Steven> Manu: Are we focussing on RDFa parser developers, or web page developers? 15:43:12 <Steven> ... I think the latter 15:43:24 <ShaneM> q+ to ask about audience 15:43:25 <tinkster> Certainly, to help page authors. The parser would be built into the browser. 15:43:30 <manu> ack manu 15:43:34 <Knud> I think the latter 15:43:36 <manu> ack [IP 15:43:48 <manu> ack ShaneM 15:43:48 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to ask about audience 15:44:34 <tinkster> DocA loads DocB in an iframe, and extracts triples from DocB. 15:44:51 <Knud> useful for mashups? 15:44:54 <Steven> Shane: Who is our audience for this? 15:45:18 <Steven> Manu: App writers, crawlers 15:45:59 <Benjamin> q+ 15:46:43 <tinkster> Also GreaseMonkey/Opera User Scripts... 15:46:45 <Steven> ... extracting the triples 15:46:58 <Steven> Shane: So native in a browser, or a library? 15:47:07 <Steven> Manu: Yes 15:47:13 <manu> ack Benjamin 15:47:32 <Steven> Benjamin: If we have an API, we don't need RDFa parsers anymore? 15:47:32 <tinkster> The parser powers the API. 15:47:34 <Steven> Manu: Yes 15:47:45 <Steven> Shane: At least on the client side 15:48:06 <Steven> Ivan: So my distiller will still be used. 15:48:14 <tinkster> Even though we have XML DOM, we still need XML parsers! 15:48:19 <Steven> Manu: We want to make it easier for web developers to use 15:48:40 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes 15:48:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/11-rdfa-minutes.html Steven 15:49:06 <Steven> Benjamin: So the real focus is to extract RDF triples 15:49:15 <Steven> ... and it should be possible to query 15:49:27 <manu> q+ to discuss add/removal of RDF triples 15:49:29 <Steven> ... add triples, and remove them 15:49:42 <Steven> ... those last two may be optional 15:49:51 <manu> ack [IP 15:49:51 <Zakim> [IPcaller], you wanted to discuss add/removal of RDF triples 15:50:05 <Steven> zakim, [IP is Manu 15:50:05 <Zakim> +Manu; got it 15:50:16 <ivan> +1 to the current order 15:50:23 <Steven> Manu: Not sure about 2, and against 3 and 4 15:50:35 <tinkster> #3 is hard; #4 is easy but not especially useful without #3. 15:50:36 <Steven> ... at least in the first version 15:50:43 <Steven> ... maybe we can build it up by stages 15:51:15 <ShaneM> I agree with Toby - you would need a CSS selector-like query interface... SPARQL in the browser 15:51:35 <Steven> Manu: It would be difficult to do 3 and 4 15:51:51 <Steven> Ivan: I think 1 and 2 should be the focus for now 15:52:20 <Steven> Benjamin: We need to define the cut between the RDFa DOM API and the triplestore API 15:52:46 <ivan> q+ 15:52:57 <Steven> Manu: Big unanswered question 15:53:05 <Steven> Ivan: Toby collected some APIs as examples 15:53:09 <tinkster> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/wiki/RDF-API 15:53:19 <manu> q+ to discuss how this hooks into ODF and SVG 15:53:23 <manu> ack ivan 15:53:31 <Steven> ... but what a triplestore API can do in a browser is unclear at the moment 15:54:05 <Steven> ... it is right to divide them 15:54:23 <manu> ack Manu 15:54:23 <Zakim> Manu, you wanted to discuss how this hooks into ODF and SVG 15:54:26 <Steven> ... for the time being, treat as separate 15:54:39 <ShaneM> +1 to permitting extracted triples to be put into a local triple store 15:55:04 <Steven> Manu: We may want to decide if there are triggers that require the one API to use the other 15:55:25 <Steven> ... safety and privacy issues need attention 15:55:34 <Steven> ... shouldn't focus on the triplestore API 15:55:59 <Steven> ... we may want to see how the DOM API matches the SVG DOM API 15:56:05 <Steven> ... and there's ODF as well 15:56:17 <Steven> Rob: No standardised DOM representation as of now 15:56:28 <Steven> Manu: We should watch that though 15:56:40 <Steven> .. and talk to Doug Schepers too 15:57:02 <Steven> Ivan: I have used the SVG DOM, I don't foresee a problem 15:57:16 <Steven> ... it is a read-only API 15:57:35 <Benjamin> q+ to talk about the first sketch at http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/wiki/RDFa-DOM-API 15:57:46 <Steven> ... only if we start adding and removing triples do I see a problem 15:57:49 <manu> ack Benjamin 15:57:49 <Zakim> Benjamin, you wanted to talk about the first sketch at http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/wiki/RDFa-DOM-API 15:58:07 <Steven> Benjamin: Just to mention the first version 15:58:38 <ShaneM> Do we envision this is a 'live' list that is updated as there are mutation events, or a static list that must be updated by the developer as needed? 15:58:38 <Steven> ... we should play with it 15:58:41 <Steven> ... try it out 15:58:51 <ivan> q+ 15:58:57 <manu> ack ivan 15:59:23 <Steven> Ivan: Looking at the microdata API would be a good comparison 15:59:24 <manu> q+ to end the meeting. 15:59:40 <Steven> ... try to keep them similar 15:59:44 <tinkster> IIRC microdata API is quite resource-based, whereas current RDFa suggestion quite triple-based. 15:59:59 <Steven> ack me 16:00:04 <Steven> q+ 16:00:25 <manu> ack Manu 16:00:25 <Zakim> Manu, you wanted to end the meeting. 16:00:27 <Steven> Ivan: Don't forget the time changes 16:00:28 <manu> ack Steven 16:01:05 <Steven> Steven: Ivan and I can't make the call in two week's time, because of the W3C AC meeting, and Ivan will miss the week after that as well. We should both be here next week. 16:01:44 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes 16:01:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/03/11-rdfa-minutes.html Steven # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000325