RDF Web Applications Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 30 June 2011

Agenda
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Jun/0063.html
Present
Gregg Kellogg, Sebastian Germesin, Shane McCarron, Steven Pemberton, Thomas Steiner, Manu Sporny, Ted Thibodeau, Knud Möller
Guests
Henri Bergius, Stéphane Corlosquet
Chair
Manu Sporny
Scribe
Manu Sporny, Shane McCarron
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions

None.

Topics
13:57:11 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/30-rdfa-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/30-rdfa-irc

13:57:13 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

13:57:15 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 7332

13:57:15 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes

13:57:16 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
13:57:16 <trackbot> Date: 30 June 2011
13:57:59 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started

13:58:16 <manu1> Chair: Manu
13:58:19 <Zakim> +??P17

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17

13:58:32 <manu1> Present: Gregg, Sebastian, Shane, Steven, Thomas, Manu, Ted, Knud
13:58:32 <manu1> Guest: Henri (bergie) Bergius
13:58:32 <manu1> Guest: Stéphane (scor) Corlosquet
13:58:32 <gkellogg> zakim, ??P17 is gkellogg

Gregg Kellogg: zakim, ??P17 is gkellogg

13:58:32 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +gkellogg; got it

13:58:50 <Zakim> + +358.405.25aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +358.405.25aaaa

13:59:22 <Zakim> +??P21

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P21

13:59:26 <manu1> zakim, I am ??P21

Manu Sporny: zakim, I am ??P21

13:59:26 <Zakim> +manu1; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +manu1; got it

13:59:55 <manu1> zakim, who is on the call?

Manu Sporny: zakim, who is on the call?

13:59:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see gkellogg, +358.405.25aaaa, manu1

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gkellogg, +358.405.25aaaa, manu1

14:00:16 <manu1> zakim, aaaa is bergie

Manu Sporny: zakim, aaaa is bergie

14:00:17 <Zakim> +bergie; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +bergie; got it

14:00:36 <Zakim> +Knud

Zakim IRC Bot: +Knud

14:01:22 <Steven_> zakim, dial steven-617

Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617

14:01:22 <Zakim> ok, Steven_; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven_; the call is being made

14:01:23 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven

14:01:38 <manu1> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Jun/0063.html
14:01:41 <MacTed> Zakim, code?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, code?

14:01:41 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), MacTed

14:01:47 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software

14:01:53 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

14:01:53 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

14:01:55 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

14:01:55 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

14:02:26 <Zakim> +scor

Zakim IRC Bot: +scor

14:02:57 <scor> zakim, who is on the phone?

Stéphane Corlosquet: zakim, who is on the phone?

14:02:57 <Zakim> On the phone I see gkellogg, bergie, manu1, Knud, Steven, MacTed (muted), scor

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gkellogg, bergie, manu1, Knud, Steven, MacTed (muted), scor

14:02:59 <Knud> zakim, mute me

Knud Möller: zakim, mute me

14:02:59 <Zakim> Knud should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Knud should now be muted

14:03:51 <Zakim> +??P37

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P37

14:04:03 <manu1> zakim, who is on the call?

Manu Sporny: zakim, who is on the call?

14:04:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see gkellogg, bergie, manu1, Knud (muted), Steven, MacTed (muted), scor, ??P37

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gkellogg, bergie, manu1, Knud (muted), Steven, MacTed (muted), scor, ??P37

14:04:25 <SebastianGermesin> zakim, i am +??P37+

Sebastian Germesin: zakim, i am +??P37+

14:04:25 <Zakim> sorry, SebastianGermesin, I do not see a party named '+??P37+'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, SebastianGermesin, I do not see a party named '+??P37+'

14:04:42 <Steven_> zakim, who is on the call?

Steven Pemberton: zakim, who is on the call?

14:04:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see gkellogg, bergie, manu1, Knud (muted), Steven, MacTed (muted), scor, ??P37

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gkellogg, bergie, manu1, Knud (muted), Steven, MacTed (muted), scor, ??P37

14:04:49 <SebastianGermesin> zakim, i am ??P37

Sebastian Germesin: zakim, i am ??P37

14:04:49 <Zakim> +SebastianGermesin; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +SebastianGermesin; got it

14:06:10 <manu1> scribenick: Manu

(Scribe set to Manu Sporny)

14:06:10 <manu1> Manu: Any changes or updates to the agenda? Anything else we should discuss today? (no additions heard)

Manu Sporny: Any changes or updates to the agenda? Anything else we should discuss today? (no additions heard)

14:06:10 <manu1> Topic: Introductions: Henri Bergius

1. Introductions: Henri Bergius

14:06:19 <Zakim> +tomayac

Zakim IRC Bot: +tomayac

14:06:22 <manu1> Henri: I am Henri Berguis - Web developer from Finland

Henri Bergius: I am Henri Berguis - Web developer from Finland

14:06:46 <manu1> Henri: Been doing web development since late 1990s, working w/ IKS project - building CMS tools that use RDFa to make pages editable and annotatable.

Henri Bergius: Been doing web development since late 1990s, working w/ IKS project - building CMS tools that use RDFa to make pages editable and annotatable.

14:07:08 <manu1> Henri: I am the author of the VIE library - reads RDFa from page, creates JavaScript for managing it in more CMS-friendly manner.

Henri Bergius: I am the author of the VIE library - reads RDFa from page, creates JavaScript for managing it in more CMS-friendly manner.

14:07:21 <Zakim> +??P39

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P39

14:07:31 <ShaneM> zakim, ??P39 is ShaneM

Shane McCarron: zakim, ??P39 is ShaneM

14:07:31 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM; got it

14:07:36 <manu1> Henri: I am more focused on ensuring that RDFa is the format that all CMS systems can be used to describe content model and make content model editable.

Henri Bergius: I am more focused on ensuring that RDFa is the format that all CMS systems can be used to describe content model and make content model editable.

14:08:20 <manu1> Manu: Great to have you in the group - your JavaScript expertise is very welcome.

Manu Sporny: Great to have you in the group - your JavaScript expertise is very welcome.

14:08:48 <ShaneM> ScribeNick: ShaneM

(Scribe set to Shane McCarron)

14:08:48 <manu1> scribenick: ShaneM
14:09:20 <manu1> Henri: I am also collaborating with Sebastian.

Henri Bergius: I am also collaborating with Sebastian. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:09:34 <manu1> Topic: Official Position on WWW-TAG issue

2. Official Position on WWW-TAG issue

14:10:24 <ShaneM> Manu: TAG is forming a task force to try to harmonize RDFa and Microdata.

Manu Sporny: TAG is forming a task force to try to harmonize RDFa and Microdata.

14:10:24 <ShaneM> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Jun/0058.html

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Jun/0058.html

14:10:35 <ShaneM> ... this is a discussion to find out how the group feels about the TAG finding and formulate a response.

... this is a discussion to find out how the group feels about the TAG finding and formulate a response.

14:10:36 <Steven_> q+

Steven Pemberton: q+

14:10:46 <manu1> q-

Manu Sporny: q-

14:10:50 <bergie> q+

Henri Bergius: q+

14:11:22 <manu1> q+

Manu Sporny: q+

14:11:23 <bergie> q-

Henri Bergius: q-

14:11:24 <tomayac> q+

Thomas Steiner: q+

14:11:26 <ShaneM> Steven_: It is fine that the TAG has said this and it is an obvious step to unify all of the structured data languages.  It will take a lot of the hassle away for Web Developers if it is successful...

Steven Pemberton: It is fine that the TAG has said this and it is an obvious step to unify all of the structured data languages. It will take a lot of the hassle away for Web Developers if it is successful...

14:11:43 <ShaneM> ... but we have spent years getting buy in for RDFa and then in a weekend microdata appeared with no community input.

... but we have spent years getting buy in for RDFa and then in a weekend microdata appeared with no community input.

14:11:51 <manu1> ack Steven_

Manu Sporny: ack Steven_

14:12:01 <ShaneM> ... it is a subset of what we can do.  But if we can get them on board to meet our usecases as well then that is a gain for the community.

... it is a subset of what we can do. But if we can get them on board to meet our usecases as well then that is a gain for the community.

14:12:08 <ShaneM> manu: I agree.

Manu Sporny: I agree.

14:13:03 <ShaneM> ... in the TAG the discussion was 'does everyone want 2 or 3 ways to do structured data on the web?'  And the obvious answer is no.  There is a lot of overlap and a lot of duplicate work for authors and parser developers.

... in the TAG the discussion was 'does everyone want 2 or 3 ways to do structured data on the web?' And the obvious answer is no. There is a lot of overlap and a lot of duplicate work for authors and parser developers.

14:13:09 <Steven_> q+

Steven Pemberton: q+

14:13:30 <Zakim> -scor

Zakim IRC Bot: -scor

14:13:36 <manu1> ack manu1

Manu Sporny: ack manu1

14:13:37 <ShaneM> ... we should recognize that unification is not what everyone wants here.  The browser vendors may want to just support Microdata and to them that is 'unification'.

... we should recognize that unification is not what everyone wants here. The browser vendors may want to just support Microdata and to them that is 'unification'.

14:13:44 <Zakim> +scor

Zakim IRC Bot: +scor

14:13:55 <ShaneM> tomayac: might be painful for some, but probably the best thing to happen.

Thomas Steiner: might be painful for some, but probably the best thing to happen.

14:14:19 <manu1> q+ to explain: http://manu.sporny.org/2011/uber-comparison-rdfa-md-uf/

Manu Sporny: q+ to explain: http://manu.sporny.org/2011/uber-comparison-rdfa-md-uf/

14:14:21 <ShaneM> ... a single format would be a great thing.  What authors want is to get more structured data on the web.

... a single format would be a great thing. What authors want is to get more structured data on the web.

14:14:29 <manu1> ack tomayac

Manu Sporny: ack tomayac

14:14:52 <ShaneM> ... microdata came out of nowhere, but Google is supporting it (schema.org).

... microdata came out of nowhere, but Google is supporting it (schema.org).

14:15:27 <manu1> ack Steven_

Manu Sporny: ack Steven_

14:15:35 <ShaneM> ... if there is one format this would be a good thing.  I have seen some discussion of RDFa Lite.  It might make it easier but would not reduce confusion.  It would be a bad choice to do RDFa lite.

... if there is one format this would be a good thing. I have seen some discussion of RDFa Lite. It might make it easier but would not reduce confusion. It would be a bad choice to do RDFa lite.

14:16:09 <ShaneM> Steven_: A word of warning.  Note that the same thing was supposed to happen with XForms and WebForms.  There was a task force.  But no one from the web browser side ever showed up at the meetings and nothing ever happened.

Steven Pemberton: A word of warning. Note that the same thing was supposed to happen with XForms and WebForms. There was a task force. But no one from the web browser side ever showed up at the meetings and nothing ever happened.

14:16:17 <ShaneM> manu: what would you suggest is done differently?

Manu Sporny: what would you suggest is done differently?

14:16:50 <scor> q+

Stéphane Corlosquet: q+

14:16:51 <ShaneM> Steven_: Well... if they don't turn up then make it an issue in the Hypertext Coordinate Group or similar group.  Keep a fire lit under them.  Force them to turn up and do the work.

Steven Pemberton: Well... if they don't turn up then make it an issue in the Hypertext Coordinate Group or similar group. Keep a fire lit under them. Force them to turn up and do the work.

14:17:08 <ShaneM> ... suspect in the webforms case they deliberabely didn't turn up to allow the task force die a death.

... suspect in the webforms case they deliberabely didn't turn up to allow the task force die a death.

14:17:26 <manu1> ack manu1

Manu Sporny: ack manu1

14:17:26 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to explain: http://manu.sporny.org/2011/uber-comparison-rdfa-md-uf/

Zakim IRC Bot: manu1, you wanted to explain: http://manu.sporny.org/2011/uber-comparison-rdfa-md-uf/

14:17:36 <ShaneM> manu: so we need to ensure they show up and there is buy in.  Otherwise it will fail.  But there are personalities that might not necessarily want to work together.

Manu Sporny: so we need to ensure they show up and there is buy in. Otherwise it will fail. But there are personalities that might not necessarily want to work together.

14:18:08 <ShaneM> manu: there seemed to be a lot of confusion about the overlap.  I put together a comprehensive analysis of the formats.  Updating as people give feedback.

Manu Sporny: there seemed to be a lot of confusion about the overlap. I put together a comprehensive analysis of the formats. Updating as people give feedback.

14:18:16 <ShaneM> ... fairly complete now.

... fairly complete now.

14:18:17 <manu1> http://manu.sporny.org/2011/uber-comparison-rdfa-md-uf/

Manu Sporny: http://manu.sporny.org/2011/uber-comparison-rdfa-md-uf/

14:18:18 <tomayac> manu1, really great work! thanks for doing it!

Thomas Steiner: manu1, really great work! thanks for doing it!

14:19:13 <ShaneM> scor: I have not seen anyone in the HTML5 community talking about this TAG task force.  Is there anything going on there?

Stéphane Corlosquet: I have not seen anyone in the HTML5 community talking about this TAG task force. Is there anything going on there?

14:19:57 <ShaneM> manu: I have seem two responses that indicate that they hope this task force is as successful as the ones for XHTML2 and WebForms.  Which is passive agressive, wanting the Task Force to fail, and very disappointing.

Manu Sporny: I have seem two responses that indicate that they hope this task force is as successful as the ones for XHTML2 and WebForms. Which is passive agressive, wanting the Task Force to fail, and very disappointing.

14:20:11 <ShaneM> ... it is important that we show them we want everyone working together on this.

... it is important that we show them we want everyone working together on this.

14:20:14 <ShaneM> q+

q+

14:20:20 <manu1> ack scor

Manu Sporny: ack scor

14:20:54 <manu1> Shane: Does the TAG recognize that there is already a REC of RDFa?

Shane McCarron: Does the TAG recognize that there is already a REC of RDFa? [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:21:11 <manu1> Manu: They recognize it, but they don't want that to get in the way of unifying structured data on the Web.

Manu Sporny: They recognize it, but they don't want that to get in the way of unifying structured data on the Web. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:21:33 <manu1> ShaneM: The goal here should be the expanded use of the semantic web, make it easier for people to put out meaningful semantic data in their content.

Shane McCarron: The goal here should be the expanded use of the semantic web, make it easier for people to put out meaningful semantic data in their content. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:21:52 <manu1> ShaneM:If that means throwing everything out and adopting Microdata - then that's the solution.

Shane McCarron: If that means throwing everything out and adopting Microdata - then that's the solution. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:21:56 <Steven_> q+

Steven Pemberton: q+

14:22:21 <manu1> ShaneM:I see us being perfectly reasonable and making tweaks to address Microdata use cases, but I don't see WHAT WG changing or caring about unification.

Shane McCarron: I see us being perfectly reasonable and making tweaks to address Microdata use cases, but I don't see WHAT WG changing or caring about unification. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:23:01 <manu1> ShaneM:If there is no buy-in by Google, Schema.org - then we're going to waste six months... we need buy-in.

Shane McCarron: If there is no buy-in by Google, Schema.org - then we're going to waste six months... we need buy-in. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:23:04 <manu1> ack shanem

Manu Sporny: ack shanem

14:23:06 <manu1> ack steven_

Manu Sporny: ack steven_

14:23:32 <ShaneM> Steven_: I would recommend that we let the TAG know we think that this is a good approach but we are pessemistic about the possibilities.  point to the remarks from the HTML5 group.

Steven Pemberton: I would recommend that we let the TAG know we think that this is a good approach but we are pessemistic about the possibilities. point to the remarks from the HTML5 group.

14:23:52 <ShaneM> ... note that it has been tried before and it has failed.  That we would particularly request support from them to put weight behind it.

... note that it has been tried before and it has failed. That we would particularly request support from them to put weight behind it.

14:24:06 <ShaneM> ... if all they do is start the task force and not follow up, the chances are high that it will just fail.

... if all they do is start the task force and not follow up, the chances are high that it will just fail.

14:24:43 <Steven_> q+

Steven Pemberton: q+

14:24:53 <ShaneM> manu: we are perfectly willing to work with everyone to find a unified way forward, but if we don't get participation from everyone then it won't work.

Manu Sporny: we are perfectly willing to work with everyone to find a unified way forward, but if we don't get participation from everyone then it won't work.

14:24:57 <manu1> ack Steven_

Manu Sporny: ack Steven_

14:25:16 <ShaneM> ... we would need agreement up front from everyone that whatever comes out is implemented and supported.

... we would need agreement up front from everyone that whatever comes out is implemented and supported.

14:25:37 <ShaneM> Steven_: Put in an objection against microdata+html5 as a last call comment?

Steven Pemberton: Put in an objection against microdata+html5 as a last call comment?

14:25:53 <scor> q+

Stéphane Corlosquet: q+

14:27:59 <ShaneM> ShaneM: The TAG should really object to microdata and RDFa last call.

Shane McCarron: The TAG should really object to microdata and RDFa last call.

14:27:59 <manu1> ack scor

Manu Sporny: ack scor

14:28:45 <bergie_> scor: What is to stop HTML WG from forking Microdata and doing a Web Forms / HTML5 / etc. all over again?

Stéphane Corlosquet: What is to stop HTML WG from forking Microdata and doing a Web Forms / HTML5 / etc. all over again? [ Scribe Assist by Henri Bergius ]

14:28:47 <ShaneM> manu: there is nothing preventing that and is what will happen unless we get buy in from everybody.

Manu Sporny: there is nothing preventing that and is what will happen unless we get buy in from everybody.

14:29:26 <ShaneM> Steven_: There is some sort of moral pressure.  Hixie has been threatening this all along... but some manufacturers dont support going off and doing in in WhatWG because of IP issues (if nothing else).

Steven Pemberton: There is some sort of moral pressure. Hixie has been threatening this all along... but some manufacturers dont support going off and doing in in WhatWG because of IP issues (if nothing else).

14:30:00 <ShaneM> ACTION: Manu to draft an official response for discussion on the mailing list

ACTION: Manu to draft an official response for discussion on the mailing list

14:30:00 <trackbot> Created ACTION-85 - Draft an official response for discussion on the mailing list [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-07-07].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-85 - Draft an official response for discussion on the mailing list [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-07-07].

14:30:08 <tomayac> +1

Thomas Steiner: +1

14:30:09 <scor> +1

Stéphane Corlosquet: +1

14:30:13 <gkellogg> +1

Gregg Kellogg: +1

14:30:14 <Knud> +1

Knud Möller: +1

14:30:23 <manu1> Topic: RDFa/Microdata Task Force Suggestions

3. RDFa/Microdata Task Force Suggestions

14:31:06 <ShaneM> TAG is looking for suggestions on people who can be in the group.  They are looking for people who are not too invested in the existing solutions.

TAG is looking for suggestions on people who can be in the group. They are looking for people who are not too invested in the existing solutions.

14:31:54 <ShaneM> ... don't want the people who are actually working on the specifications.

... don't want the people who are actually working on the specifications.

14:32:15 <ShaneM> ... Greg had mentioned Dan Brickley might be good.  Philip Jägenstedt might be good.

... Greg had mentioned Dan Brickley might be good. Philip Jägenstedt might be good.

14:32:42 <ShaneM> ShaneM: Has Jeni volunteered?

Shane McCarron: Has Jeni volunteered?

14:32:59 <ShaneM> manu: no, but we need to get her there.  It was her idea and she is able to talk about each approach in a fair manner.

Manu Sporny: no, but we need to get her there. It was her idea and she is able to talk about each approach in a fair manner.

14:33:37 <ShaneM> ... Richard Cyganiak might be a good candidate.

... Richard Cyganiak might be a good candidate.

14:33:53 <ShaneM> What about Nathan Rixham?

What about Nathan Rixham?

14:33:55 <gkellogg> Michael Hausenblas might be a good candidate

Gregg Kellogg: Michael Hausenblas might be a good candidate

14:34:15 <ShaneM> He has been hard to get lately, but we could ask him.  Note that these people may be viewed as "RDF sympathizers"...

He has been hard to get lately, but we could ask him. Note that these people may be viewed as "RDF sympathizers"...

14:34:22 <manu1> Henri Sivonen might be good

Manu Sporny: Henri Sivonen might be good

14:35:01 <ShaneM> ShaneM: What's wrong with RDF people?  Any solution that doesn't at the very least generate RDF would be bad, right?

Shane McCarron: What's wrong with RDF people? Any solution that doesn't at the very least generate RDF would be bad, right?

14:35:06 <manu1> RV Guha, Kavi Goel

Manu Sporny: RV Guha, Kavi Goel

14:35:20 <scor> Manu: we just need to balance, and have non-RDF people too

Manu Sporny: we just need to balance, and have non-RDF people too [ Scribe Assist by Stéphane Corlosquet ]

14:35:48 <ShaneM> Shane:I agree that we need balance

Shane McCarron: I agree that we need balance

14:35:57 <Steven_> Someone from Drupal?

Steven Pemberton: Someone from Drupal?

14:36:22 <manu1> Evan Sandhaus (NYT), Andreas Gebhardt (Getty), and Stuart Myles (Associated Press)

Manu Sporny: Evan Sandhaus (NYT), Andreas Gebhardt (Getty), and Stuart Myles (Associated Press)

14:36:54 <Steven_> Someone from Reuters?

Steven Pemberton: Someone from Reuters?

14:37:14 <ShaneM> Shane: What about Misha Wolf?

Shane McCarron: What about Misha Wolf?

14:37:23 <manu1> Gregg: Yves Raimond, Nick Humphrey - both from BBC might be good.

Gregg Kellogg: Yves Raimond, Nick Humphrey - both from BBC might be good. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:37:24 <Knud> From Drupal: how about Stepháne?

Knud Möller: From Drupal: how about Stepháne?

14:39:09 <scor> Facebook folks: David Recordon, Paul Tarjan

Stéphane Corlosquet: Facebook folks: David Recordon, Paul Tarjan

14:39:10 <ShaneM> ShaneM: remember that large groups have trouble making decisions.  A task force of more than 5 people isn't going to decide anything.

Shane McCarron: remember that large groups have trouble making decisions. A task force of more than 5 people isn't going to decide anything.

14:39:33 <ShaneM> Steven_: Yes, but we need enough candidates so that when people say no we still have critical mass.

Steven Pemberton: Yes, but we need enough candidates so that when people say no we still have critical mass.

14:40:09 <manu1> Chris Messina, Brian Suda, Kevin Marks

Manu Sporny: Chris Messina, Brian Suda, Kevin Marks

14:40:31 <manu1> Steven: Jeni Tennison should Chair

Steven Pemberton: Jeni Tennison should Chair [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:40:35 <scor> +1

Stéphane Corlosquet: +1

14:40:35 <ShaneM> Manu: Chair recommendations?

Manu Sporny: Chair recommendations?

14:40:37 <ShaneM> Shane: Jeni Tennison

Shane McCarron: Jeni Tennison

14:40:40 <gkellogg> +1

Gregg Kellogg: +1

14:41:08 <manu1> Shane: Somebody from the TAG should Chair - Noah if Jeni can't do it.

Shane McCarron: Somebody from the TAG should Chair - Noah if Jeni can't do it. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:41:40 <manu1> Shane: Roland Merrick? He was great at getting stuff done.

Shane McCarron: Roland Merrick? He was great at getting stuff done. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:41:57 <ShaneM> ... note that he is retired, but we might persuade him.

... note that he is retired, but we might persuade him.

14:42:21 <ShaneM> ACTION: Manu deliver our list of suggestions to the TAG as people we think might be good participants in the group.

ACTION: Manu deliver our list of suggestions to the TAG as people we think might be good participants in the group.

14:42:21 <trackbot> Created ACTION-86 - Deliver our list of suggestions to the TAG as people we think might be good participants in the group. [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-07-07].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-86 - Deliver our list of suggestions to the TAG as people we think might be good participants in the group. [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-07-07].

14:42:53 <manu1> Topic: RDFa Linter

4. RDFa Linter

14:43:28 <ShaneM> gkellogg: had previously created a distiller that did rdfa, and more recently json-ld and microdata.

Gregg Kellogg: had previously created a distiller that did rdfa, and more recently json-ld and microdata.

14:43:54 <ShaneM> ... can generate whatever output.  Approached by scor about expanding this work.

... can generate whatever output. Approached by scor about expanding this work.

14:44:07 <ShaneM> ... new thing in git that can parse any format, and produce a rich snippet view.

... new thing in git that can parse any format, and produce a rich snippet view.

14:44:40 <ShaneM> ... in theory can take disgested forms of vocabularies and do some analysis to help people use the vocabularies correctly.

... in theory can take disgested forms of vocabularies and do some analysis to help people use the vocabularies correctly.

14:45:06 <ShaneM> scor: Had an idea to generalize the thing that FB promoted at  http://developers.facebook.com/tools/lint/

Stéphane Corlosquet: Had an idea to generalize the thing that FB promoted at http://developers.facebook.com/tools/lint/

14:45:27 <gkellogg> Existing distiller: http://rdf.greggkellogg.net/distiller

Gregg Kellogg: Existing distiller: http://rdf.greggkellogg.net/distiller

14:45:48 <ShaneM> ... do some work to help with use of schema.org or sioc or whatever.  show that rdfa is on par with microdata

... do some work to help with use of schema.org or sioc or whatever. show that rdfa is on par with microdata

14:45:49 <gkellogg> Select 'rdfa' as output format.

Gregg Kellogg: Select 'rdfa' as output format.

14:46:10 <ShaneM> ... like a unified linter that will also show what search engines might do with your data.

... like a unified linter that will also show what search engines might do with your data.

14:46:15 <manu1> q+ to discuss why this is important

Manu Sporny: q+ to discuss why this is important

14:46:34 <manu1> ack manu1

Manu Sporny: ack manu1

14:46:34 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to discuss why this is important

Zakim IRC Bot: manu1, you wanted to discuss why this is important

14:46:37 <ShaneM> ... not yet published, but hopefully will have something by this time next week.

... not yet published, but hopefully will have something by this time next week.

14:46:54 <ShaneM> manu: one of the great things is that we have not traditionally had tools like this, and that has hurt us.

Manu Sporny: one of the great things is that we have not traditionally had tools like this, and that has hurt us.

14:47:09 <ShaneM> ... we have been working hard, but we need all the tools in the ecosystem to be successful.

... we have been working hard, but we need all the tools in the ecosystem to be successful.

14:47:16 <ShaneM> ... fantastic that you have taken the intiative.

... fantastic that you have taken the intiative.

14:47:35 <scor> q+

Stéphane Corlosquet: q+

14:47:58 <ShaneM> ... raises the question of where we put the tool when it is done.  I want to see the best coalesce on one site.  rdfa.info.  need to put that in a git hub and set it up so people can hack on it.

... raises the question of where we put the tool when it is done. I want to see the best coalesce on one site. rdfa.info. need to put that in a git hub and set it up so people can hack on it.

14:48:11 <ShaneM> ... we need a central place where I can learn about RDFa, test it, etc.

... we need a central place where I can learn about RDFa, test it, etc.

14:48:29 <ShaneM> q+

q+

14:48:43 <ShaneM> scor: I agree that the rdfa community has been lacking a central place.

Stéphane Corlosquet: I agree that the rdfa community has been lacking a central place.

14:49:10 <ShaneM> ... I am not sure that the linter, for example, should be RDFa only or advertised as such.  It can do microdata as well.

... I am not sure that the linter, for example, should be RDFa only or advertised as such. It can do microdata as well.

14:49:22 <ShaneM> ... I dont want to fragment the community.

... I dont want to fragment the community.

14:49:24 <manu1> Maybe we should have structured-data.org ?

Manu Sporny: Maybe we should have structured-data.org ?

14:49:51 <manu1> ack scor

Manu Sporny: ack scor

14:49:59 <manu1> q+ to say no to RDFa-only.

Manu Sporny: q+ to say no to RDFa-only.

14:50:27 <manu1> ack shanem

Manu Sporny: ack shanem

14:50:58 <ShaneM> ShaneM: Didn't we agree that we only wanted to have pointers to things, not necessarily that we would have the all the code in one place?

Shane McCarron: Didn't we agree that we only wanted to have pointers to things, not necessarily that we would have the all the code in one place?

14:51:12 <scor> schema-linter.org

Stéphane Corlosquet: schema-linter.org

14:51:17 <ShaneM> manu: yes, we did agree that.  I had forgotten.  Pointers to good tools well integrated would be sufficient.

Manu Sporny: yes, we did agree that. I had forgotten. Pointers to good tools well integrated would be sufficient.

14:51:41 <bergie_> data-on-web.org?

Henri Bergius: data-on-web.org?

14:51:43 <scor> structured-data.org/linter

Stéphane Corlosquet: structured-data.org/linter

14:52:09 <gkellogg> +1

Gregg Kellogg: +1

14:52:44 <manu1> Topic: Thoughts on RDFa Basic vs. RDFa Advanced

5. Thoughts on RDFa Basic vs. RDFa Advanced

14:52:56 <manu1> http://manu.sporny.org/rdfa/rdfa-core-simplified/diff-20110331.html

Manu Sporny: http://manu.sporny.org/rdfa/rdfa-core-simplified/diff-20110331.html

14:55:26 <Zakim> -tomayac

Zakim IRC Bot: -tomayac

14:55:48 <Zakim> +tomayac

Zakim IRC Bot: +tomayac

14:55:48 <ShaneM> Manu explains why a single spec with a Basic and Advanced level might be a good solution if it covers the microdata use cases.

Manu explains why a single spec with a Basic and Advanced level might be a good solution if it covers the microdata use cases.

14:56:09 <ShaneM> scor: do we need a new name that doesn't include 'RDF' so people are not confused or scared.

Stéphane Corlosquet: do we need a new name that doesn't include 'RDF' so people are not confused or scared.

14:56:23 <scor> sData?

Stéphane Corlosquet: sData?

14:56:36 <tomayac> minidata, a lil' bigger than microdata ;-)

Thomas Steiner: minidata, a lil' bigger than microdata ;-)

14:56:36 <scor> for structuredData

Stéphane Corlosquet: for structuredData

14:56:44 <gkellogg> *lda*

Gregg Kellogg: *lda*

14:56:44 <ShaneM> manu: do we need to rebrand? To something like: "Structure" or structured-data.org (or the suggestions above). I am in favor of doing this.  Some people are scared of the letters 'RDF'.  people who understand will know that the new thing still does RDF.

Manu Sporny: do we need to rebrand? To something like: "Structure" or structured-data.org (or the suggestions above). I am in favor of doing this. Some people are scared of the letters 'RDF'. people who understand will know that the new thing still does RDF.

14:57:21 <scor> q+

Stéphane Corlosquet: q+

14:57:28 <manu1> ack manu1

Manu Sporny: ack manu1

14:57:28 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to say no to RDFa-only.

Zakim IRC Bot: manu1, you wanted to say no to RDFa-only.

14:57:34 <ShaneM> ... if the task force is successful, does anyone have an issue with rebranding?

... if the task force is successful, does anyone have an issue with rebranding?

14:57:35 <manu1> ack scor

Manu Sporny: ack scor

14:57:39 <gkellogg> q+

Gregg Kellogg: q+

14:58:05 <manu1> zakim, who is making noise?

Manu Sporny: zakim, who is making noise?

14:58:15 <Zakim> manu1, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: tomayac (25%), manu1 (9%), scor (64%)

Zakim IRC Bot: manu1, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: tomayac (25%), manu1 (9%), scor (64%)

14:58:21 <manu1> zakim, mute tomayac

Manu Sporny: zakim, mute tomayac

14:58:21 <Zakim> tomayac should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: tomayac should now be muted

14:58:28 <Zakim> -bergie

Zakim IRC Bot: -bergie

14:58:51 <ShaneM> scor: if we rebrand does that mean we don't need to be backward compatible?

Stéphane Corlosquet: if we rebrand does that mean we don't need to be backward compatible?

14:59:14 <scor> +1 for rebranding

Stéphane Corlosquet: +1 for rebranding

14:59:14 <Steven_> +1 to that

Steven Pemberton: +1 to that

14:59:17 <ShaneM> manu: not necessarily.  I think we need some sort of backwards compatibility if there is to be an RDFa 1.1 - but that's why we're talking about Basic and Advanced levels. The Basic level could break backwards compatibility.

Manu Sporny: not necessarily. I think we need some sort of backwards compatibility if there is to be an RDFa 1.1 - but that's why we're talking about Basic and Advanced levels. The Basic level could break backwards compatibility.

14:59:30 <Knud> rebranding sounds good

Knud Möller: rebranding sounds good

14:59:33 <Knud> +1

Knud Möller: +1

14:59:33 <tomayac> -1

Thomas Steiner: -1

14:59:34 <Zakim> +bergie

Zakim IRC Bot: +bergie

14:59:38 <SebastianGermesin> +1

Sebastian Germesin: +1

14:59:43 <SebastianGermesin> for rebranding

Sebastian Germesin: for rebranding

14:59:47 <bergie_> +1 for rebranding if we get one unified spec

Henri Bergius: +1 for rebranding if we get one unified spec

14:59:55 <ShaneM> +1 to represent the unification

+1 to represent the unification

14:59:57 <manu1> +1 for rebranding if we have a unified spec.

Manu Sporny: +1 for rebranding if we have a unified spec.

15:00:07 <gkellogg> +1

Gregg Kellogg: +1

15:00:21 <tomayac> +1 if unified, of course

Thomas Steiner: +1 if unified, of course

15:00:49 <scor> zakim, who is making noise?

Stéphane Corlosquet: zakim, who is making noise?

15:00:55 <ShaneM> Group seems to agree that it is good to rebrand if there is a unified spec going forward.

Group seems to agree that it is good to rebrand if there is a unified spec going forward.

15:01:02 <ShaneM> No one seems to want to fight unification.

No one seems to want to fight unification.

15:01:04 <Zakim> scor, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: bergie (9%), manu1 (54%), Steven (14%)

Zakim IRC Bot: scor, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: bergie (9%), manu1 (54%), Steven (14%)

15:01:09 <ShaneM> q+

q+

15:01:23 <ShaneM> ... it is up to the other communities to come to the table.

... it is up to the other communities to come to the table.

15:01:25 <manu1> ack gkellogg

Manu Sporny: ack gkellogg

15:01:36 <manu1> zakim, mute steven

Manu Sporny: zakim, mute steven

15:01:36 <Zakim> Steven should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Steven should now be muted

15:01:40 <ShaneM> Steven_: Since what they have is a subset of what we have, all we need to do is find a way to make them happy.

Steven Pemberton: Since what they have is a subset of what we have, all we need to do is find a way to make them happy.

15:01:42 <manu1> zakim, unmute steven

Manu Sporny: zakim, unmute steven

15:01:42 <Zakim> Steven should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Steven should no longer be muted

15:01:45 <Steven_> (for the minutes I was doing +1 to rebranding the unified version)

Steven Pemberton: (for the minutes I was doing +1 to rebranding the unified version)

15:01:47 <manu1> zakim, mute bergie

Manu Sporny: zakim, mute bergie

15:01:49 <Steven_> zakim, who is noisy?

Steven Pemberton: zakim, who is noisy?

15:01:50 <Zakim> bergie should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bergie should now be muted

15:02:03 <Zakim> Steven_, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds

Zakim IRC Bot: Steven_, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds

15:02:09 <ShaneM> gkellogg: If there are objections to syntactic choices that we made historically, then we need to be willing to move on that.

Gregg Kellogg: If there are objections to syntactic choices that we made historically, then we need to be willing to move on that.

15:02:29 <bergie_> manu1: sorry about that, new phone (MeeGo, comes with RDF!)

Manu Sporny: sorry about that, new phone (MeeGo, comes with RDF!) [ Scribe Assist by Henri Bergius ]

15:02:40 <ShaneM> ... one of the things that makes RDFa challenging is that we can't have @rel and @typeof on the same element.  This is one place where microdata is better.

... one of the things that makes RDFa challenging is that we can't have @rel and @typeof on the same element. This is one place where microdata is better.

15:02:48 <manu1> ack shanem

Manu Sporny: ack shanem

15:03:00 <ShaneM> ... if w are unifying somehting new might be a different language and backward compatibilty is not important.

... if w are unifying something new might be a different language and backward compatibilty is not important.

15:03:17 <Steven_> s/hting/thing/
15:03:53 <manu1> Shane: You guys said that given RDFa and RDF is a super-set of what Microdata and Microformats have, all we need to do is find a way to satisfy objections. The first job of the TF is to agree that whatever solution is put in place has the "force of law"

Shane McCarron: You guys said that given RDFa and RDF is a super-set of what Microdata and Microformats have, all we need to do is find a way to satisfy objections. The first job of the TF is to agree that whatever solution is put in place has the "force of law" [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

15:04:27 <manu1> Shane: If the TF agrees - everyone goes and does that. Either this WG goes away and a new one is created - or the HTML5+Microdata activity goes away - at some point, some one needs to stop work or combine work.

Shane McCarron: If the TF agrees - everyone goes and does that. Either this WG goes away and a new one is created - or the HTML5+Microdata activity goes away - at some point, some one needs to stop work or combine work. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

15:04:44 <manu1> Shane: Nobody here is objecting to the concept of having one path forward for Web developers.

Shane McCarron: Nobody here is objecting to the concept of having one path forward for Web developers. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

15:05:05 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

15:05:06 <manu1> Shane: I think it's naive to say that "We can persuade WHATWG that RDFa is the solution."

Shane McCarron: I think it's naive to say that "We can persuade WHATWG that RDFa is the solution." [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

15:05:15 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted

15:05:50 <manu1> Ted: It would be nice to see a summary of use cases that are satisfied by RDFa 1.1 and not satisfied by Microformats and Microdata.

Ted Thibodeau: It would be nice to see a summary of use cases that are satisfied by RDFa 1.1 and not satisfied by Microformats and Microdata. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

15:06:14 <ShaneM> manu: we have tried this and the whatwg says "we are not interested in those use cases".

Manu Sporny: we have tried this and the whatwg says "we are not interested in those use cases".

15:06:17 <tomayac> +1 on what MacTed just said

Thomas Steiner: +1 on what MacTed just said

15:06:17 <scor> q+

Stéphane Corlosquet: q+

15:06:22 <ShaneM> Steven_: But that's what the unification is about.

Steven Pemberton: But that's what the unification is about.

15:06:28 <manu1> ack scor

Manu Sporny: ack scor

15:06:38 <bergie_> q+

Henri Bergius: q+

15:06:40 <ShaneM> MacTed: The point is that there is a superset and we need to adress them all.

Ted Thibodeau: The point is that there is a superset and we need to adress them all.

15:07:14 <manu1> ack bergie_

Manu Sporny: ack bergie_

15:07:24 <gkellogg> MD has problems with items with multi, or no types

Gregg Kellogg: MD has problems with items with multi, or no types

15:07:29 <ShaneM> scor: one problem is that microdata items can only have one type.  multi-typing is important.  we can probably find use cases that support that.

Stéphane Corlosquet: one problem is that microdata items can only have one type. multi-typing is important. we can probably find use cases that support that.

15:07:39 <manu1> zakim, unmute bergie

Manu Sporny: zakim, unmute bergie

15:07:39 <Zakim> bergie should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bergie should no longer be muted

15:07:55 <scor> multi vocabularies is another use case too

Stéphane Corlosquet: multi vocabularies is another use case too

15:08:12 <ShaneM> bergie_: Important use case is that hte data is something that can be reliable edited and sent back to the server.  microformats are not good for that.  microdata is so-so.

Henri Bergius: Important use case is that hte data is something that can be reliable edited and sent back to the server. microformats are not good for that. microdata is so-so.

15:08:19 <ShaneM> manu: that's a good use case.  We have not had that one before.

Manu Sporny: that's a good use case. We have not had that one before.

15:08:27 <manu1> zakim, mute bergie

Manu Sporny: zakim, mute bergie

15:08:27 <Zakim> bergie should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: bergie should now be muted

15:08:35 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:08:35 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:08:40 <ShaneM> scor: multi-vocabuliaries on the same statement.

Stéphane Corlosquet: multi-vocabuliaries on the same statement.

15:08:40 <ShaneM> Manu: Alright, we're out of time for today, but let's take some of this discussion to the mailing list and I'll follow up with the TAG.

Manu Sporny: Alright, we're out of time for today, but let's take some of this discussion to the mailing list and I'll follow up with the TAG.

15:09:03 <Zakim> -Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven

15:09:03 <Zakim> -Knud

Zakim IRC Bot: -Knud

15:09:05 <Zakim> -tomayac

Zakim IRC Bot: -tomayac

15:09:06 <Zakim> -scor

Zakim IRC Bot: -scor

15:09:06 <Zakim> -MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed

15:09:09 <Zakim> -gkellogg

Zakim IRC Bot: -gkellogg

15:09:10 <Zakim> -SebastianGermesin

Zakim IRC Bot: -SebastianGermesin

15:09:11 <Zakim> -ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM

15:09:13 <Zakim> -manu1

Zakim IRC Bot: -manu1

15:09:15 <Zakim> -bergie

Zakim IRC Bot: -bergie

15:09:17 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended

15:09:19 <Zakim> Attendees were gkellogg, +358.405.25aaaa, manu1, bergie, Knud, Steven, MacTed, scor, SebastianGermesin, tomayac, ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were gkellogg, +358.405.25aaaa, manu1, bergie, Knud, Steven, MacTed, scor, SebastianGermesin, tomayac, ShaneM



Formatted by CommonScribe


This revision (#1) generated 2011-06-30 16:15:30 UTC by 'msporny', comments: 'Minor updates and corrections.'