RDF Web Applications Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 12 May 2011

Agenda
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011May/0058.html
Present
Manu Sporny, Benjamin Adrian, Shane McCarron, Thomas Steiner, Ted Thibodeau, Ivan Herman
Scribe
Ivan Herman
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions
  1. Keep the word 'term' - do not use the word 'alias'. link
  2. Remove the words "at present" when discussing fragment identifiers. The editor will create language that is in line with the TAG's request. link
Topics
13:56:52 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-rdfa-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/12-rdfa-irc

13:56:54 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

13:56:56 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 7332

13:56:56 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes

13:56:57 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
13:56:57 <trackbot> Date: 12 May 2011
13:59:40 <manu> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011May/0058.html
13:59:45 <manu> Present: Manu, Benjamin, Shane, Thomas, Ted, Ivan
14:00:58 <manu> zakim, who is on the call?

Manu Sporny: zakim, who is on the call?

14:00:58 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has not yet started, manu

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFa()10:00AM has not yet started, manu

14:00:59 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, ShaneM, tomayac, MacTed, webr3, ivan, manu, manu1, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see RRSAgent, ShaneM, tomayac, MacTed, webr3, ivan, manu, manu1, trackbot

14:01:11 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip

Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip

14:01:11 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made

14:01:36 <ivan> zakim, who is here?

Ivan Herman: zakim, who is here?

14:01:36 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has not yet started, ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFa()10:00AM has not yet started, ivan

14:01:37 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, ShaneM, tomayac, MacTed, webr3, ivan, manu, manu1, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see RRSAgent, ShaneM, tomayac, MacTed, webr3, ivan, manu, manu1, trackbot

14:01:52 <manu> zakim, I am ??manu

Manu Sporny: zakim, I am ??manu

14:01:53 <Zakim> sorry, manu, I do not see a party named '??manu'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, manu, I do not see a party named '??manu'

14:07:53 <MacTed> Zakim, code?

(No events recorded for 6 minutes)

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, code?

14:07:53 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), MacTed

14:08:10 <MacTed> Zakim, this is 7332

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, this is 7332

14:08:10 <Zakim> ok, MacTed; that matches SW_RDFa()10:00AM

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, MacTed; that matches SW_RDFa()10:00AM

14:08:11 <Benjamin> zakim, who is on the phone

Benjamin Adrian: zakim, who is on the phone

14:08:12 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', Benjamin

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'who is on the phone', Benjamin

14:08:14 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here?

14:08:14 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tom, ??P13, Ivan, ??P28, OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Tom, ??P13, Ivan, ??P28, OpenLink_Software

14:08:16 <Zakim> On IRC I see Benjamin, Zakim, RRSAgent, ShaneM, tomayac, MacTed, webr3, ivan, manu, manu1, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Benjamin, Zakim, RRSAgent, ShaneM, tomayac, MacTed, webr3, ivan, manu, manu1, trackbot

14:08:22 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

14:08:22 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

14:08:24 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

14:08:24 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

14:09:00 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's noisy?

14:09:11 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P28 (91%)

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P28 (91%)

14:09:20 <MacTed> Zakim, ??p28 is Benjamin

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, ??p28 is Benjamin

14:09:20 <Zakim> +Benjamin; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Benjamin; got it

14:09:24 <MacTed> Zakim, mute Benjamin

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute Benjamin

14:09:25 <manu> zakim, I am ??P13

Manu Sporny: zakim, I am ??P13

14:09:26 <Zakim> Benjamin should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Benjamin should now be muted

14:09:28 <Zakim> +manu; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +manu; got it

14:10:07 <Benjamin> zakim, unmute me

Benjamin Adrian: zakim, unmute me

14:10:07 <Zakim> Benjamin should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Benjamin should no longer be muted

14:10:15 <Benjamin> zakim, mute me

Benjamin Adrian: zakim, mute me

14:10:15 <Zakim> Benjamin should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Benjamin should now be muted

14:12:59 <ivan> scribenick: ivan

(Scribe set to Ivan Herman)

14:13:47 <ivan> topic: RDF Interfaces publication

1. RDF Interfaces publication

14:14:09 <ivan> manu: we had a good publication, and also a semanticweb.com piece on the documents

Manu Sporny: we had a good publication, and also a semanticweb.com piece on the documents

14:14:10 <manu> http://semanticweb.com/on-various-rdf-api-s%E2%80%A6_b19815

Manu Sporny: http://semanticweb.com/on-various-rdf-api-s%E2%80%A6_b19815

14:14:40 <Benjamin> Thank you Ivan for writing this article !!!

Benjamin Adrian: Thank you Ivan for writing this article !!!

14:15:45 <ivan> manu: ivan, you sent an email that there is a publishing moratorium next week

Manu Sporny: ivan, you sent an email that there is a publishing moratorium next week

14:16:07 <ivan> ... it gives us a little bit more time to review Ben's document on RDF API

... it gives us a little bit more time to review Ben's document on RDF API

14:16:15 <Benjamin> zakim, unmute me

Benjamin Adrian: zakim, unmute me

14:16:15 <Zakim> Benjamin should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Benjamin should no longer be muted

14:16:15 <ivan> ... speaking of...

... speaking of...

14:16:18 <manu> Topic: Update on spec progress

2. Update on spec progress

14:17:01 <ivan> Benjamin: I fixed the examples, changed the environment to 'Data'

Benjamin Adrian: I fixed the examples, changed the environment to 'Data'

14:17:06 <ivan> ... I fixed the WebIDL

... I fixed the WebIDL

14:17:13 <ivan> ... otherwise I did not make many changes

... otherwise I did not make many changes

14:17:14 <manu> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdf-api/

Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdf-api/

14:17:26 <ivan> ... what is left: prose/flow has to be fixed,

... what is left: prose/flow has to be fixed,

14:17:37 <ivan> ... we have to discuss the projection, based on the email discussion

... we have to discuss the projection, based on the email discussion

14:17:55 <ivan> Benjamin: I added the set method to the projection

Benjamin Adrian: I added the set method to the projection

14:18:00 <ivan> ... there are some issues on that

... there are some issues on that

14:18:25 <Benjamin> open issues on projections are:

Benjamin Adrian: open issues on projections are:

14:18:37 <Benjamin> nested projections

Benjamin Adrian: nested projections

14:19:11 <ivan> q+

q+

14:19:27 <Benjamin> zakim, mute me

Benjamin Adrian: zakim, mute me

14:19:27 <Zakim> Benjamin should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Benjamin should now be muted

14:19:36 <manu> ack ivan

Manu Sporny: ack ivan

14:19:51 <manu> Manu: The reason we do not allow nested projections is that it is difficult to figure out where top stop travelling down the nested tree. If you have a graph with a billion triples and you build a projection for a subject, do you include all 500 million links? If you nest them, how do you do so (depth-first vs. breadth first)? These raise very complicated implementation questions that will inevitably make the spec more complicated than necessary. Let's not include the ability to do multiple-levels of projections. If a developer wants to get a relationship, they can just perform another query and build another Projection.

Manu Sporny: The reason we do not allow nested projections is that it is difficult to figure out where top stop travelling down the nested tree. If you have a graph with a billion triples and you build a projection for a subject, do you include all 500 million links? If you nest them, how do you do so (depth-first vs. breadth first)? These raise very complicated implementation questions that will inevitably make the spec more complicated than necessary. Let's not include the ability to do multiple-levels of projections. If a developer wants to get a relationship, they can just perform another query and build another Projection. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:20:02 <manu> Ivan: Doing automatic projection generation is not a good idea, for all the reasons that Manu said.

Ivan Herman: Doing automatic projection generation is not a good idea, for all the reasons that Manu said. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:20:40 <manu> Ivan: Niklas wanted one more method where when one looks at a triple w/ a URIRef, then what you get back is a Projection for that object being the subject. It's strictly a one-step indirection.

Ivan Herman: Niklas wanted one more method where when one looks at a triple w/ a URIRef, then what you get back is a Projection for that object being the subject. It's strictly a one-step indirection. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:20:55 <manu> ... it may help to get over the situation where you have the duality of string vs. object.

Manu Sporny: ... it may help to get over the situation where you have the duality of string vs. object.

14:21:15 <manu> ... it helps to overcome that and this is a fairly natural thing to do. It's fairly natural when the object in question is a blank node.

Manu Sporny: ... it helps to overcome that and this is a fairly natural thing to do. It's fairly natural when the object in question is a blank node.

14:21:16 <Benjamin> e.g., ben = ivan.getRel("foaf:knows")

Benjamin Adrian: e.g., ben = ivan.getRel("foaf:knows")

14:21:42 <manu> Manu: What's the return type?

Manu Sporny: What's the return type? [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:21:47 <manu> sequence of Projections or Projection? I think it's a sequence.

Manu Sporny: sequence of Projections or Projection? I think it's a sequence.

14:22:02 <Benjamin> q+ do we really need this?

Benjamin Adrian: q+ do we really need this?

14:22:47 <Benjamin> q+

Benjamin Adrian: q+

14:22:47 <ivan> manu: we had a choice on to get the 'first' or all in a sequence.. that's why we have .get() vs. .getAll(). The same should apply to .getRel() or .getRels()?

Manu Sporny: we had a choice on to get the 'first' or all in a sequence.. that's why we have .get() vs. .getAll(). The same should apply to .getRel() or .getRels()?

14:22:50 <manu> ack Benjamin

Manu Sporny: ack Benjamin

14:22:51 <ivan> ... maybe that is what we need?

... maybe that is what we need?

14:22:54 <Benjamin> zakim, unmute me

Benjamin Adrian: zakim, unmute me

14:22:54 <Zakim> Benjamin was not muted, Benjamin

Zakim IRC Bot: Benjamin was not muted, Benjamin

14:23:03 <ivan> Benjamin: I do not think we really we need this feature

Benjamin Adrian: I do not think we really we need this feature

14:23:16 <ivan> ... it is not a big deal to do it manually

... it is not a big deal to do it manually

14:23:36 <ivan> ... even in the case of a blank node you get what you were looking for.

... even in the case of a blank node you get what you were looking for.

14:23:37 <manu> What about _:bnode1?

Manu Sporny: What about _:bnode1?

14:23:56 <ivan> manu: How do we express the uri for a blank node?

Manu Sporny: How do we express the uri for a blank node?

14:24:02 <ivan> ... we get only strings and native datatypes back from a projection

... we get only strings and native datatypes back from a projection

14:24:15 <ivan> ... the projections are not for low level objects

... the projections are not for low level objects

14:24:34 <ivan> ... we cannot get the difference between an IRI reference and a string

... we cannot get the difference between an IRI reference and a string

14:24:47 <ivan> ... if we were able to get the difference, then you are right, it does not matter

... if we were able to get the difference, then you are right, it does not matter

14:24:58 <ivan> ... not being able to determine the type of an object is a reason that we may want to have getRel()...

... not being able to determine the type of an object is a reason that we may want to have getRel()...

14:25:06 <tomayac> is it an issue in practice? we had this in the JSON discussions as well. some serializations cared, most simply didn't...

Thomas Steiner: is it an issue in practice? we had this in the JSON discussions as well. some serializations cared, most simply didn't...

14:25:23 <manu> var knows = ivan.get("foaf:knows");

Manu Sporny: var knows = ivan.get("foaf:knows");

14:25:36 <manu> knows == "http://manu.sporny.org/webid"

Manu Sporny: knows == "http://manu.sporny.org/webid"

14:26:10 <manu> data.getProjection("http://manu.sporny.org/webid")

Manu Sporny: data.getProjection("http://manu.sporny.org/webid")

14:26:49 <ivan> manu: Nevermind, thinking through it - we can just use strings. I now agree with Benjamin, we really do not need getRel() when dealing with IRIs.

Manu Sporny: Nevermind, thinking through it - we can just use strings. I now agree with Benjamin, we really do not need getRel() when dealing with IRIs.

14:27:06 <manu> Now, what about blank nodes?

Manu Sporny: Now, what about blank nodes?

14:27:09 <ivan> manu: for a blank node

Manu Sporny: for a blank node

14:27:13 <manu> knows == "_:bnode2"

Manu Sporny: knows == "_:bnode2"

14:27:26 <manu> data.getProjection("_:bnode2") ?? Is this what we should do?

Manu Sporny: data.getProjection("_:bnode2") ?? Is this what we should do?

14:27:28 <Benjamin> why not: bnode1 = ivan.get("foaf:knows")

Benjamin Adrian: why not: bnode1 = ivan.get("foaf:knows")

14:27:28 <Benjamin> ben = data.getProjection(bnode1)

Benjamin Adrian: ben = data.getProjection(bnode1)

14:27:36 <ivan> q+

q+

14:28:01 <ivan> manu: the reason I am concerned is because the blank node names change when you merge multiple graph together...

Manu Sporny: the reason I am concerned is because the blank node names change when you merge multiple graph together...

14:28:11 <ivan> ... what happens then to the bnodes?

... what happens then to the bnodes?

14:28:57 <ivan> ... the two graphs that are merged then things may go wrong because _:bnode1 may not point at the data you are thinking about

... the two graphs that are merged then things may go wrong because _:bnode1 may not point at the data you are thinking about

14:29:03 <manu> ack ivan

Manu Sporny: ack ivan

14:29:11 <manu> Ivan: That's the same issue I have w/ this.

Ivan Herman: That's the same issue I have w/ this. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:29:24 <manu> Ivan: If we have bnodes, we are going to have to deal with them...

Ivan Herman: If we have bnodes, we are going to have to deal with them... [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:29:37 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

14:29:37 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted

14:29:42 <manu> Ivan: It's a potentially dangerous thing to do.

Ivan Herman: It's a potentially dangerous thing to do. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:29:56 <manu> Ted: I think that this is a guidance question...

Ted Thibodeau: I think that this is a guidance question... [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:30:14 <ivan> MacTed: blank nodes exist, but if we say if you can avoid using bnodes, do so

Ted Thibodeau: blank nodes exist, but if we say if you can avoid using bnodes, do so

14:30:15 <ivan> q+

q+

14:30:21 <manu> ack Ivan

Manu Sporny: ack Ivan

14:30:28 <manu> Ivan: I don't disagree with that, Ted

Ivan Herman: I don't disagree with that, Ted [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:30:43 <Benjamin> q+ to ask if getRel and getRev really solve this?

Benjamin Adrian: q+ to ask if getRel and getRev really solve this?

14:31:03 <manu> Ivan: However, if we keep to the examples of FOAF, the semantic web is full of bnodes... it's an issue that will be widespread - we should try to be as fool-proof as we can.

Ivan Herman: However, if we keep to the examples of FOAF, the semantic web is full of bnodes... it's an issue that will be widespread - we should try to be as fool-proof as we can. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:31:07 <manu> ack Benjamin

Manu Sporny: ack Benjamin

14:31:07 <Zakim> Benjamin, you wanted to ask if getRel and getRev really solve this?

Zakim IRC Bot: Benjamin, you wanted to ask if getRel and getRev really solve this?

14:31:37 <ivan> Benjamin: if we have a subject and an object as bnodes

Benjamin Adrian: if we have a subject and an object as bnodes

14:31:43 <ivan> ... it is just the same problem...

... it is just the same problem...

14:31:45 <ivan> q+

q+

14:31:50 <manu> ack ivan

Manu Sporny: ack ivan

14:31:51 <tomayac> maybe stupid idea: if we have a bnode, serialize it as a JSON-LD object, run a hash function over the JSON.stringified version of it, and give the bnode a uri at fixed.example.org/.well-known/{hash_result}

Thomas Steiner: maybe stupid idea: if we have a bnode, serialize it as a JSON-LD object, run a hash function over the JSON.stringified version of it, and give the bnode a uri at fixed.example.org/.well-known/{hash_result}

14:32:05 <manu> q+ to wonder whether or not "it's the same problem w/ JavaScript"

Manu Sporny: q+ to wonder whether or not "it's the same problem w/ JavaScript"

14:32:27 <tomayac> this would allow us to compare bnodes easily

Thomas Steiner: this would allow us to compare bnodes easily

14:32:30 <manu> Yes, but I don't think this is a bnode comparison problem, is it? It's a "oh crap, I lost the reference to the bnode because it was renamed" problem...

Manu Sporny: Yes, but I don't think this is a bnode comparison problem, is it? It's a "oh crap, I lost the reference to the bnode because it was renamed" problem...

14:33:06 <manu> Ivan: Maybe everything will be renumbered at runtime... you can never rely on a bnode ID after a graph merge, etc.

Ivan Herman: Maybe everything will be renumbered at runtime... you can never rely on a bnode ID after a graph merge, etc. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:33:21 <manu> Ivan: The only thing you can ask is "is this a bnode" and "are these two bnodes the same"?

Ivan Herman: The only thing you can ask is "is this a bnode" and "are these two bnodes the same"? [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:34:17 <ivan> Benjamin: the only time this is an issue is at parse-time

Benjamin Adrian: the only time this is an issue is at parse-time

14:34:28 <Benjamin> zakim, mute me

Benjamin Adrian: zakim, mute me

14:34:28 <Zakim> Benjamin should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Benjamin should now be muted

14:34:36 <ivan> manu: but at the lower level we do a bunch of graph merges, it's not just a parse-time issue.

Manu Sporny: but at the lower level we do a bunch of graph merges, it's not just a parse-time issue.

14:34:57 <manu> Benjamin: I think we can put a warning in the document on the .parse() method because that's when this becomes an issue.

Benjamin Adrian: I think we can put a warning in the document on the .parse() method because that's when this becomes an issue. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:35:55 <manu> Ivan: I can see that if we put a warning in the document working... this may be something we learn more about in implementations.

Ivan Herman: I can see that if we put a warning in the document working... this may be something we learn more about in implementations. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:35:57 <manu> ack manu

Manu Sporny: ack manu

14:35:57 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to wonder whether or not "it's the same problem w/ JavaScript"

Zakim IRC Bot: manu, you wanted to wonder whether or not "it's the same problem w/ JavaScript"

14:36:26 <ivan> manu: JavaScript could solve this problem, even if you do a graph merges

Manu Sporny: JavaScript could solve this problem, even if you do a graph merges

14:36:36 <ivan> ... if you had a programming language that uses pure references

... if you had a programming language that uses pure references

14:37:07 <ivan> ... if you do a graph merge, the references will still be fine after the merge. However, this is relying on a language feature that is not universally available

... if you do a graph merge, the references will still be fine after the merge. However, this is relying on a language feature that is not universally available

14:37:13 <ivan> q+

q+

14:37:47 <manu> Manu: .getRel() could work across graph merges if we deal with languages that operate on references.

Manu Sporny: .getRel() could work across graph merges if we deal with languages that operate on references. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:38:10 <manu> Ivan: Forget about blank nodes for a while - if I have a graph and ask for a Projection, that projection is all the triples that have a common subject.

Ivan Herman: Forget about blank nodes for a while - if I have a graph and ask for a Projection, that projection is all the triples that have a common subject. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:38:48 <manu> ... I have a reference... then I do a merge. Will the projection have to be updated? Does it give me a current snapshot into the graph, or does it give me an auto-updated item.

Manu Sporny: ... I have a reference... then I do a merge. Will the projection have to be updated? Does it give me a current snapshot into the graph, or does it give me an auto-updated item.

14:39:25 <manu> Manu: If we deal w/ reference-based languages - we get an auto-updated item.

Manu Sporny: If we deal w/ reference-based languages - we get an auto-updated item. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:39:35 <manu> Ivan: When we deal with things that aren't just snapshots, that's when we get in trouble.

Ivan Herman: When we deal with things that aren't just snapshots, that's when we get in trouble. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:40:00 <manu> Ivan: If it is a snapshot, an implementation can optimize for it. If it's not a snapshot, every request on a projection has to go down to the graph and do a query.

Ivan Herman: If it is a snapshot, an implementation can optimize for it. If it's not a snapshot, every request on a projection has to go down to the graph and do a query. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:41:27 <ivan> manu: there is a middle ground, (a) snapshot, nothing changes (b) snapshot, number triples do not change, but the values do because they are pure references (c) it is not a snapshot, everything can change triples and values

Manu Sporny: there is a middle ground, (a) snapshot, nothing changes (b) snapshot, number triples do not change, but the values do because they are pure references (c) it is not a snapshot, everything can change triples and values

14:41:27 <Benjamin> q+ to say it has to be a snapshot.

Benjamin Adrian: q+ to say it has to be a snapshot.

14:41:58 <ivan> manu: third option may become very complicated

Manu Sporny: third option may become very complicated

14:42:17 <manu> ack ivan

Manu Sporny: ack ivan

14:42:54 <Benjamin> zakim, unmute me

Benjamin Adrian: zakim, unmute me

14:42:54 <Zakim> Benjamin should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Benjamin should no longer be muted

14:42:58 <manu> Ivan: We agree on option #3 and option #1, not on option #2

Ivan Herman: We agree on option #3 and option #1, not on option #2 [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:43:13 <ivan> Benjamin: if it is not a snapshot, then we have to solve race conditions, we will have to deal with any sort of "waiting" condition.

Benjamin Adrian: if it is not a snapshot, then we have to solve race conditions, we will have to deal with any sort of "waiting" condition.

14:43:26 <ivan> ivan: yes, good point

Ivan Herman: yes, good point

14:43:45 <manu> Ivan: This has to be very clearly documented... seems like we think that getRel() is not necessary and that bnodes can be kicked out from under you during parsing and graph merges.

Ivan Herman: This has to be very clearly documented... seems like we think that getRel() is not necessary and that bnodes can be kicked out from under you during parsing and graph merges. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:43:58 <Zakim> +??P36

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P36

14:44:11 <ivan> zakim, ??P36 is ShaneM

zakim, ??P36 is ShaneM

14:44:11 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM; got it

14:44:13 <Benjamin> zakim, mute me

Benjamin Adrian: zakim, mute me

14:44:13 <Zakim> Benjamin should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Benjamin should now be muted

14:44:19 <Benjamin> zakim, unmute me

Benjamin Adrian: zakim, unmute me

14:44:19 <Zakim> Benjamin should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Benjamin should no longer be muted

14:44:38 <Benjamin> zakim, mute me

Benjamin Adrian: zakim, mute me

14:44:38 <Zakim> Benjamin should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Benjamin should now be muted

14:44:45 <Benjamin> zakim, unmute me

Benjamin Adrian: zakim, unmute me

14:44:45 <Zakim> Benjamin should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Benjamin should no longer be muted

14:44:47 <ivan> Result of the discussion: projections are snapshots (option a), bnodes can disappear during parsing/merges, and we do not need getRel()

Result of the discussion: projections are snapshots (option a), bnodes can disappear during parsing/merges, and we do not need getRel()

14:45:06 <Benjamin> zakim, mute me

Benjamin Adrian: zakim, mute me

14:45:31 <MacTed> Zakim, mute Benjamin

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute Benjamin

14:45:31 <Zakim> Benjamin should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Benjamin should now be muted

14:46:47 <manu> Topic: ISSUE-89: Term vs. Alias

3. ISSUE-89: Term vs. Alias

14:46:53 <manu> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/89

Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/89

14:47:27 <ivan> manu: this came up because nathan used 'alias' in the last RDF interface document.

Manu Sporny: this came up because nathan used 'alias' in the last RDF interface document.

14:47:50 <ivan> ... as Ivan said we would have to change lots of documents if we wanted to use alias

... as Ivan said we would have to change lots of documents if we wanted to use alias

14:48:04 <ivan> ... and, if we decide to change, how to do that

... and, if we decide to change, how to do that

14:48:06 <ivan> q+

q+

14:48:15 <MacTed> +1 term

Ted Thibodeau: +1 term

14:48:22 <ivan> ShaneM: we should continue to use terms

Shane McCarron: we should continue to use terms

14:48:48 <ivan> ... it has a mind share, it is already in use in the area activity as well, i do not want to re-educate them, i do no see the advantage

... it has a mind share, it is already in use in the area activity as well, i do not want to re-educate them, i do no see the advantage

14:49:04 <ivan> ... alias is computer science, and term is more linguistic... RDFa attempts to be more linguistic than computer-sciencey

... alias is computer science, and term is more linguistic... RDFa attempts to be more linguistic than computer-sciencey

14:49:10 <tomayac> +1 for term, fwiw

Thomas Steiner: +1 for term, fwiw

14:49:11 <ivan> ... term seems to fit better than alias

... term seems to fit better than alias

14:49:25 <manu> ack ivan

Manu Sporny: ack ivan

14:49:53 <manu> Ivan: I am a bit afraid that we're going to have to change all the docs/implementations/blog posts...

Ivan Herman: I am a bit afraid that we're going to have to change all the docs/implementations/blog posts... [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:49:59 <ShaneM> Oh yeah! And datatypes, XHTML M12N, etc.  ick

Shane McCarron: Oh yeah! And datatypes, XHTML M12N, etc. ick

14:50:07 <manu> Ivan: There doesn't seem to be a very big advantage for making the change... it's a bit too late to make this change.

Ivan Herman: There doesn't seem to be a very big advantage for making the change... it's a bit too late to make this change. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:50:09 <manu> q+

Manu Sporny: q+

14:50:23 <manu> Ivan: Keep terms.

Ivan Herman: Keep terms. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:50:32 <manu> ack ivan

Manu Sporny: ack ivan

14:50:37 <ivan> manu: I had a different view on this

Manu Sporny: I had a different view on this

14:50:46 <ivan> ... I had just come to the conclusion that we should move to alias

... I had just come to the conclusion that we should move to alias

14:51:10 <ivan> ... English-speaking people would understand what 'alias' means faster than they would understand 'term', IMHO

... English-speaking people would understand what 'alias' means faster than they would understand 'term', IMHO

14:51:16 <ivan> ... after all this is what we do, we 'alias' a URI. We don't 'term' a URI.

... after all this is what we do, we 'alias' a URI. We don't 'term' a URI.

14:51:30 <ivan> ... it invokes more of what an alias is than what a term is.

... it invokes more of what an alias is than what a term is.

14:51:33 <ivan> q+

q+

14:51:36 <ivan> ack manu

ack manu

14:51:47 <ShaneM> q+ to discuss what a term really is

Shane McCarron: q+ to discuss what a term really is

14:51:48 <ivan> manu: this is the strongest argument I have, and it's not really that strong of an argument.

Manu Sporny: this is the strongest argument I have, and it's not really that strong of an argument.

14:52:03 <manu> ack ivan

Manu Sporny: ack ivan

14:52:07 <ivan> ack ivan

ack ivan

14:52:26 <manu> Ivan: If we had this discussion a year ago, I would fully agree with you.

Ivan Herman: If we had this discussion a year ago, I would fully agree with you. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:52:45 <manu> Ivan: The argument resonates with me - it's a bit too late. We need a stronger argument now.

Ivan Herman: The argument resonates with me - it's a bit too late. We need a stronger argument now. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:52:48 <manu> ack ShaneM

Manu Sporny: ack ShaneM

14:52:48 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to discuss what a term really is

Zakim IRC Bot: ShaneM, you wanted to discuss what a term really is

14:53:02 <ivan> ShaneM: you said something I may not agree with

Shane McCarron: you said something I may not agree with

14:53:22 <ivan> ... it is true internally that we have  a mechanism to take a string and map it to a uri

... it is true internally that we have a mechanism to take a string and map it to a uri

14:53:34 <ivan> ... but that is not how I explain things to people

... but that is not how I explain things to people

14:53:45 <ivan> .. I say that a 'term' is a component of a vocabulary, which is easier to understand.

.. I say that a 'term' is a component of a vocabulary, which is easier to understand.

14:54:07 <ivan> ... it is a term. it expands to a uri, but for our audience 'you can use this word, and means _this_'. How vocabularies contain terms that lead to definitions.

... it is a term. it expands to a uri, but for our audience 'you can use this word, and means _this_'. How vocabularies contain terms that lead to definitions.

14:54:21 <ivan> ... we would like to attract the microformat community with this

... we would like to attract the microformat community with this

14:54:28 <ivan> ... they not care about URIs, but they do care about terms.

... they not care about URIs, but they do care about terms.

14:54:36 <ivan> PROPOSAL: Keep the word 'term' - do not use the word 'alias'.

PROPOSED: Keep the word 'term' - do not use the word 'alias'.

14:54:45 <ivan> Ivan: +1

Ivan Herman: +1

14:54:50 <MacTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

14:54:51 <tomayac> +1

Thomas Steiner: +1

14:54:58 <manu> +1

Manu Sporny: +1

14:55:02 <Benjamin> +1

Benjamin Adrian: +1

14:55:16 <manu> RESOLVED: Keep the word 'term' - do not use the word 'alias'.

RESOLVED: Keep the word 'term' - do not use the word 'alias'.

14:55:17 <ShaneM> +1

Shane McCarron: +1

14:55:55 <manu> Topic: ISSUE-94: Formulation on fragid in RDFa Core

4. ISSUE-94: Formulation on fragid in RDFa Core

14:56:06 <manu> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/94

Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/94

14:56:10 <ivan> manu: this boils down removing 2 words from the spec

Manu Sporny: this boils down removing 2 words from the spec

14:56:35 <ivan> ... the issue the TAG / Jonathan Rees had with the spec is that we say the word 'at present', and we should not say it

... the issue the TAG / Jonathan Rees had with the spec is that we say the word 'at present', and we should not say it

14:56:50 <ivan> ... if we do that, they are happy

... if we do that, they are happy

14:58:17 <manu> PROPOSAL: Remove the words "at present" when discussing fragment identifiers. The editor will create language that is in line with the TAG's request.

PROPOSED: Remove the words "at present" when discussing fragment identifiers. The editor will create language that is in line with the TAG's request.

14:58:20 <manu> +1

Manu Sporny: +1

14:58:22 <ivan> Ivan: +1

Ivan Herman: +1

14:58:25 <tomayac> +1

Thomas Steiner: +1

14:58:26 <Benjamin> +1

Benjamin Adrian: +1

14:58:34 <ShaneM> +1

Shane McCarron: +1

14:59:35 <MacTed> +1  :-)

Ted Thibodeau: +1 :-)

14:58:40 <ivan> RESOLVED: Remove the words "at present" when discussing fragment identifiers. The editor will create language that is in line with the TAG's request.

RESOLVED: Remove the words "at present" when discussing fragment identifiers. The editor will create language that is in line with the TAG's request.

14:59:55 <manu> ACTION: Manu to do official 2nd LC response to ISSUE-94.

ACTION: Manu to do official 2nd LC response to ISSUE-94.

15:00:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-77 - Do official 2nd LC response to ISSUE-94. [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-05-19].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-77 - Do official 2nd LC response to ISSUE-94. [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-05-19].

15:00:05 <manu> Topic: ISSUE-87: IRI vs. URI References

5. ISSUE-87: IRI vs. URI References

15:00:33 <manu> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/87

Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/87

15:00:54 <ivan> manu: Mischa asked us to use the same terminology as the rest of the RDF community

Manu Sporny: Mischa asked us to use the same terminology as the rest of the RDF community

15:01:05 <ivan> ... ShaneM explained the reasoning on the mailing list

... ShaneM explained the reasoning on the mailing list

15:03:14 <Zakim> -MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed

15:04:17 <ShaneM> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Mar/0069.html

Shane McCarron: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Mar/0069.html

15:05:58 <ivan> What happens when one expresses this in RDFa in @href: http://www.résumé.org/

What happens when one expresses this in RDFa in @href: http://www.résumé.org/

15:06:13 <manu> Shane responded: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Mar/0067.html

Manu Sporny: Shane responded: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Mar/0067.html

15:06:25 <manu> Mischa's response to Shane's response: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Mar/0069.html

Manu Sporny: Mischa's response to Shane's response: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Mar/0069.html

15:07:18 <tomayac> xn--rsum-bpad.org

Thomas Steiner: xn--rsum-bpad.org

15:07:56 <tomayac> manu, depends on your browser

Thomas Steiner: manu, depends on your browser

15:08:00 <tomayac> some show it, some hide it

Thomas Steiner: some show it, some hide it

15:08:10 <tomayac> in the background they punycode it

Thomas Steiner: in the background they punycode it

15:08:43 <manu> So for: www.zürich.com does RDFa output that? Or does it output: www.xn--zrich-kva.com

Manu Sporny: So for: www.zürich.com does RDFa output that? Or does it output: www.xn--zrich-kva.com

15:10:21 <manu> Can RDFa output the following: <www.сделат картинки.com> ? for a subject?

Manu Sporny: Can RDFa output the following: <www.сделат картинки.com> ? for a subject?

15:13:15 <tomayac> we have problems with e.g. ntriples, which only allow ascii, rdfa has no problem with it

Thomas Steiner: we have problems with e.g. ntriples, which only allow ascii, rdfa has no problem with it

15:14:24 <ShaneM> tomayac: ahh

Thomas Steiner: ahh [ Scribe Assist by Shane McCarron ]

15:14:28 <ShaneM> Ivan: We need to get the RDF WG and Semantic Web Coordination group involved.

Ivan Herman: We need to get the RDF WG and Semantic Web Coordination group involved. [ Scribe Assist by Shane McCarron ]

15:15:53 <manu> ACTION: Manu to write e-mail to RDF WG chairs about ISSUE-87 - we can't go to CR without this being resolved.

ACTION: Manu to write e-mail to RDF WG chairs about ISSUE-87 - we can't go to CR without this being resolved.

15:15:53 <trackbot> Created ACTION-78 - Write e-mail to RDF WG chairs about ISSUE-87 - we can't go to CR without this being resolved. [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-05-19].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-78 - Write e-mail to RDF WG chairs about ISSUE-87 - we can't go to CR without this being resolved. [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-05-19].

15:17:15 <ivan> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Apr/0469.html

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Apr/0469.html

15:18:16 <tomayac> shouldn't we default to punycoding all IRIs, so treat them always the same. least common multiple...

Thomas Steiner: shouldn't we default to punycoding all IRIs, so treat them always the same. least common multiple...

15:18:18 <manu> I don't think that we should do that.

Manu Sporny: I don't think that we should do that.

15:23:29 <ShaneM> Section 6 says "The lexical space of a CURIE is as defined in curie below. The value space is the set of URIs."

(No events recorded for 5 minutes)

Shane McCarron: Section 6 says "The lexical space of a CURIE is as defined in curie below. The value space is the set of URIs."

15:24:00 <Zakim> -Benjamin

Zakim IRC Bot: -Benjamin

15:24:19 <Benjamin> bye

Benjamin Adrian: bye

15:27:40 <ShaneM> href="http://www.сделат картинки.com/example" is what in the DOM within a browser?

Shane McCarron: href="http://www.сделат картинки.com/example" is what in the DOM within a browser?

15:27:56 <manu> ShaneM: No, that's not in the DOM

Shane McCarron: No, that's not in the DOM [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

15:28:29 <tomayac> http://www.xn--zrich-kva.de/

Thomas Steiner: http://www.xn--zrich-kva.de/

15:30:12 <tomayac> <a href="http://www.xn--schweizer-kche-qsb.de/">Schweizer Küche</a>

Thomas Steiner: <a href="http://www.xn--schweizer-kche-qsb.de/">Schweizer Küche</a>

15:34:16 <tomayac> <a href="http://www.xn--schweizer-kche-qsb.de/">Schweizer Küche</a>

Thomas Steiner: <a href="http://www.xn--schweizer-kche-qsb.de/">Schweizer Küche</a>

15:34:39 <ShaneM> check this: http://www.aptest.com/iri.html

Shane McCarron: check this: http://www.aptest.com/iri.html

15:34:44 <tomayac> my irc client punycodes... the 2nd link had a ü in it

Thomas Steiner: my irc client punycodes... the 2nd link had a ü in it

15:35:48 <manu> RDFa processors should allow: <a href="http://www.schweizer-küche.de/">Schweizer Küche</a>

Manu Sporny: RDFa processors should allow: <a href="http://www.schweizer-küche.de/">Schweizer Küche</a>

15:35:48 <manu> ... lots of discussion on how to best proceed with RDFa processors and how they may affect URLs and IRIs that are generated ...

Manu Sporny: ... lots of discussion on how to best proceed with RDFa processors and how they may affect URLs and IRIs that are generated ...

15:36:48 <tomayac> hmmm, personally i expect the rdfa processors to punycode. just sayin'...

Thomas Steiner: hmmm, personally i expect the rdfa processors to punycode. just sayin'...

15:45:04 <Zakim> -Ivan

(No events recorded for 8 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan

15:45:05 <Zakim> -ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM

15:45:05 <Zakim> -Thomas

Zakim IRC Bot: -Thomas

15:45:07 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended

15:45:10 <Zakim> Attendees were Thomas, Ivan, MacTed, Benjamin, manu, ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Thomas, Ivan, MacTed, Benjamin, manu, ShaneM

15:48:06 <tomayac> we kinda have this issue already: http://dbpedia.org/page/Tie_%28draw%29 is NOT the same as http://dbpedia.org/page/Tie_(draw), where  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tie_(draw) is the same as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tie_%28draw%29

Thomas Steiner: we kinda have this issue already: http://dbpedia.org/page/Tie_%28draw%29 is NOT the same as http://dbpedia.org/page/Tie_(draw), where http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tie_(draw) is the same as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tie_%28draw%29



Formatted by CommonScribe


This revision (#1) generated 2011-05-12 17:18:25 UTC by 'msporny', comments: 'Minor updates/changes.'