RDFa Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 23 September 2010

Agenda
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010Sep/0125.html
Present
Ivan Herman, Steven Pemberton, Benjamin Adrian, Manu Sporny, Shane McCarron
Regrets
Mark Birbeck
Chair
Manu Sporny
Scribe
Benjamin Adrian
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions

None.

Topics
14:00:01 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-rdfa-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/23-rdfa-irc

14:00:02 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:00:04 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 7332

14:00:04 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start now

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start now

14:00:05 <trackbot> Meeting: RDFa Working Group Teleconference
14:00:06 <trackbot> Date: 23 September 2010
14:00:14 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617

Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617

14:00:14 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made

14:00:15 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started

14:00:16 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven

14:01:27 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip

Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip

14:01:33 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made

14:01:35 <Zakim> +Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan

14:02:08 <Zakim> +??P19

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P19

14:02:14 <manu1> zakim, I am ??P19

Manu Sporny: zakim, I am ??P19

14:02:14 <Zakim> +manu1; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +manu1; got it

14:03:21 <Zakim> + +49.631.205.75.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +49.631.205.75.aaaa

14:03:41 <Benjamin> zakim, aaaa is Benjamin

Benjamin Adrian: zakim, aaaa is Benjamin

14:03:41 <Zakim> +Benjamin; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Benjamin; got it

14:05:11 <Zakim> +ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM

14:06:54 <manu1> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010Sep/0125.html
14:06:58 <manu1> Chair: Manu
14:07:28 <manu1> Regrets: MarkB
14:07:37 <manu1> Present: Ivan, Steven, Benjamin, Manu, Shane
14:08:30 <manu1> Topic: RDFa-related news
14:08:57 <manu1> Benjamin: There was a question about further annotating stuff in RDFa in XML3D at a recent talk I gave?

Benjamin Adrian: There was a question about further annotating stuff in RDFa in XML3D at a recent talk I gave? [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:09:13 <manu1> Ivan: They could put the data in SVG metadata tag if they want to do that.

Ivan Herman: They could put the data in SVG metadata tag if they want to do that. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:09:20 <manu1> Manu: There are two very major content industries that are looking at deploying their next major metadata formats in XHTML+RDFa. The information may go public later this year and during the early part of next year.

Manu Sporny: There are two very major content industries that are looking at deploying their next major metadata formats in XHTML+RDFa. The information may go public later this year and during the early part of next year. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:09:39 <Benjamin> scribenick: Benjamin

(Scribe set to Benjamin Adrian)

14:09:40 <manu1> scribe: Benjamin
14:16:03 <manu1> Topic: ISSUE-41: Under-defined processor graph vocabulary

(No events recorded for 6 minutes)

2. ISSUE-41: Under-defined processor graph vocabulary

14:16:14 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/41

Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/41

14:16:44 <Benjamin> manu1: Talked to Mark about this issue. He is concerned that we don't have the time required to deal with this issue. Agreed that an RDFa Processor Graph should exist in RDFa Core.

Manu Sporny: Talked to Mark about this issue. He is concerned that we don't have the time required to deal with this issue. Agreed that an RDFa Processor Graph should exist in RDFa Core.

14:17:08 <Benjamin> ... also agreed about the vocabulary to be out of scope here.

... also agreed about the vocabulary to be out of scope here.

14:18:05 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

14:18:13 <Benjamin> ... implementors are interested in this vocabulary. Therefore is it still out of scope?

... implementors are interested in this vocabulary. Therefore is it still out of scope?

14:18:55 <manu1> Shane: I disagree that it's out of scope - it is very much in scope.

Shane McCarron: I disagree that it's out of scope - it is very much in scope. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:18:57 <Benjamin> ivan: The vocabulary is not out of scope, but the group could not reach a consensus about what should go into the vocabulary.

Ivan Herman: The vocabulary is not out of scope, but the group could not reach a consensus about what should go into the vocabulary.

14:19:53 <Benjamin> ... we have other issues to solve and should not re-open the issue about the vocabulary.

... we have other issues to solve and should not re-open the issue about the vocabulary.

14:20:58 <Steven> -> http://www.w3.org/2010/Talks/0915Berlin-KB/ What do they do with my RDFa?

Steven Pemberton: -> http://www.w3.org/2010/Talks/0915Berlin-KB/ What do they do with my RDFa?

14:25:10 <Benjamin> manu1: Well, how does this sound like for a plan to proceed: Those that are interested in RDFa Processor Graph interoperability will hack on an RDFa Processor Graph vocabulary on the wiki. Once we have general agreement, we'll see if we want to integrate with RDFa Core. If we can't reach consensus, we may publish it as a note, for those that are interested in an RDFa Processor graph vocabulary.

Manu Sporny: Well, how does this sound like for a plan to proceed: Those that are interested in RDFa Processor Graph interoperability will hack on an RDFa Processor Graph vocabulary on the wiki. Once we have general agreement, we'll see if we want to integrate with RDFa Core. If we can't reach consensus, we may publish it as a note, for those that are interested in an RDFa Processor graph vocabulary.

14:25:40 <Benjamin> manu1: Ivan will add the vocabulary he already defined to the wiki and will send it around the mailing list.

Manu Sporny: Ivan will add the vocabulary he already defined to the wiki and will send it around the mailing list.

14:26:58 <Benjamin> manu1: we close issue 41 as it is not critical path to RDFa Core and those that are interested will implement the Processor Graph Vocabulary that we define outside of the RDFa Core spec.

Manu Sporny: we close ISSUE-41 as it is not critical path to RDFa Core and those that are interested will implement the Processor Graph Vocabulary that we define outside of the RDFa Core spec.

14:27:04 <manu1> Topic: ISSUE-45: @cite and @longdesc support

3. ISSUE-45: @cite and @longdesc support

14:27:14 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/45

Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/45

14:27:46 <Benjamin> manu1: We have been asked to make RDFa generate triples when we see longdesc and cite

Manu Sporny: We have been asked to make RDFa generate triples when we see longdesc and cite

14:28:19 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

14:28:27 <Benjamin> ... do we we support the @longdesc and @cite attributes?

... do we we support the @longdesc and @cite attributes?

14:29:37 <Benjamin> Shane: We always meant to support these attributes in XHTML2. It's simple to implement.

Shane McCarron: We always meant to support these attributes in XHTML2. It's simple to implement.

14:31:09 <Benjamin> Steven: Metadata elements in HTML such as title should conatin markup, so there was always this notion that we would support stuff like this.

Steven Pemberton: Metadata elements in HTML such as title should conatin markup, so there was always this notion that we would support stuff like this.

14:31:16 <Benjamin> Ivan: I am against it

Ivan Herman: I am against it

14:32:21 <Benjamin> ... it will require too much effort to discuss with little benefit.

... it will require too much effort to discuss with little benefit.

14:33:17 <Zakim> -Benjamin

Zakim IRC Bot: -Benjamin

14:34:21 <Zakim> +Benjamin

Zakim IRC Bot: +Benjamin

14:35:00 <Benjamin> Manu: I don't think we should support @longdesc or @cite - it complicates the RDFa processing rules, gives us two more attributes that authors have to remember produce triples, and it is not clear how much benefit it would provide. This doesn't mean that other's can't modify the RDFa Processing rules as it's pretty clear what triples should be generated - just don't think that it needs to go in RDFa Core. So if this is an accessibility issue, an accessibility compliant RDFa Processor could parse @role, @longdesc and @cite and generate triples for it - no problem. We'll put this out to the mailing list, but it doesn't sound like there would be major objections if we didn't support this in RDFa Core. Other specs can define this if they want to.

Manu Sporny: I don't think we should support @longdesc or @cite - it complicates the RDFa processing rules, gives us two more attributes that authors have to remember produce triples, and it is not clear how much benefit it would provide. This doesn't mean that other's can't modify the RDFa Processing rules as it's pretty clear what triples should be generated - just don't think that it needs to go in RDFa Core. So if this is an accessibility issue, an accessibility compliant RDFa Processor could parse @role, @longdesc and @cite and generate triples for it - no problem. We'll put this out to the mailing list, but it doesn't sound like there would be major objections if we didn't support this in RDFa Core. Other specs can define this if they want to.

14:35:23 <Benjamin> manu1: Any objections if we close this issue via the mailing list?

Manu Sporny: Any objections if we close this issue via the mailing list?

14:35:25 <Benjamin> No objections noted.

No objections noted.

14:35:29 <Benjamin> Topic: ISSUE-16: RDF Collections

4. ISSUE-16: RDF Collections

14:35:29 <trackbot> ISSUE-16 Determine if there is a good way of supporting RDF Collections notes added

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-16 Determine if there is a good way of supporting RDF Collections notes added

14:37:34 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/16

Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/16

14:37:34 <ivan> -> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/wiki/ContainersAndCollections Ivan's proposal

Ivan Herman: -> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/wiki/ContainersAndCollections Ivan's proposal

14:39:57 <Benjamin> Shane: Can't I generate triples about RDF Collections by using e.g., @typeof rdf:Seq?

Shane McCarron: Can't I generate triples about RDF Collections by using e.g., @typeof rdf:Seq?

14:40:55 <Benjamin> Ivan: Yes, you can. rdf:List is a bit more difficult to do in RDFa. You have to build up the list manually which is very complicated in RDFa

Ivan Herman: Yes, you can. rdf:List is a bit more difficult to do in RDFa. You have to build up the list manually which is very complicated in RDFa

14:41:16 <manu1> q+ to discuss linked data cloud

Manu Sporny: q+ to discuss linked data cloud

14:41:28 <Zakim> -Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven

14:42:01 <Benjamin> q+

q+

14:42:04 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

14:42:22 <manu1> ack ivan

Manu Sporny: ack ivan

14:42:23 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617

Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617

14:42:24 <manu1> ack manu1

Manu Sporny: ack manu1

14:42:24 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made

14:42:26 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven

14:42:26 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

14:42:27 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to discuss linked data cloud

Zakim IRC Bot: manu1, you wanted to discuss linked data cloud

14:42:43 <ivan> ack Benjamin

Ivan Herman: ack Benjamin

14:43:01 <manu1> ack ivan

Manu Sporny: ack ivan

14:43:34 <manu1> Benjamin: These features are very useful - they just have bad support thus far.

Benjamin Adrian: These features are very useful - they just have bad support thus far. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ]

14:43:36 <Benjamin> manu1: We don't need to support this feature because no one is using SEQ, ALT, BAG - if you check the Linked Data Cloud Cache, there is very little usage of these constructs.

Manu Sporny: We don't need to support this feature because no one is using SEQ, ALT, BAG - if you check the Linked Data Cloud Cache, there is very little usage of these constructs.

14:44:52 <Benjamin> q+

q+

14:44:55 <manu1> q+ to say that we don't disallow this stuff

Manu Sporny: q+ to say that we don't disallow this stuff

14:45:51 <Benjamin> Ivan: The LOD cache is not representative of all systems that use RDF sequences, alt or bags. OWL is using lists extensively, so does XMP (which is embedded in almost every photoshop file/image created). There are many applications that depend or will depend on this stuff.

Ivan Herman: The LOD cache is not representative of all systems that use RDF sequences, alt or bags. OWL is using lists extensively, so does XMP (which is embedded in almost every photoshop file/image created). There are many applications that depend or will depend on this stuff.

14:45:54 <manu1> ack Benjamin

Manu Sporny: ack Benjamin

14:46:14 <manu1> ack manu1

Manu Sporny: ack manu1

14:46:14 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to say that we don't disallow this stuff

Zakim IRC Bot: manu1, you wanted to say that we don't disallow this stuff

14:47:16 <Benjamin> manu1: We don't disallow usage of this stuff. The issue is just to make it easier in RDFa to express lists and similar structures.

Manu Sporny: We don't disallow usage of this stuff. The issue is just to make it easier in RDFa to express lists and similar structures.

14:50:18 <Benjamin> ivan: We should separate the ISSUE into its two components: The first is if RDF lists, sequences and bags is something that we want to provide a syntax for in RDFa. The second is to ask if the technical solution outlined in the wiki is the solution that we want.

Ivan Herman: We should separate the ISSUE into its two components: The first is if RDF lists, sequences and bags is something that we want to provide a syntax for in RDFa. The second is to ask if the technical solution outlined in the wiki is the solution that we want.

14:51:16 <Benjamin> Steven: I'm of two minds, but it would be nice to support it

Steven Pemberton: I'm of two minds, but it would be nice to support it

14:52:34 <Benjamin> Shane: If we have the energy, we should solve the problem

Shane McCarron: If we have the energy, we should solve the problem

14:52:39 <ivan> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/wiki/ContainersAndCollections#Transformation_Examples

Ivan Herman: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/wiki/ContainersAndCollections#Transformation_Examples

14:52:54 <Benjamin> manu1: I don't think we should address this particular problem, you can already express the items in RDFa, I think it'll take too long to come to consensus on this.

Manu Sporny: I don't think we should address this particular problem, you can already express the items in RDFa, I think it'll take too long to come to consensus on this.

14:54:57 <manu1> q+ to discuss LC timeline

Manu Sporny: q+ to discuss LC timeline

14:56:23 <Benjamin> manu1: Our last call is in 5 weeks. We don't have enough time do make such a major change.

Manu Sporny: Our last call is in 5 weeks. We don't have enough time do make such a major change.

14:57:21 <ShaneM> q+ to discuss schedule

Shane McCarron: q+ to discuss schedule

14:57:25 <manu1> ack manu1

Manu Sporny: ack manu1

14:57:25 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to discuss LC timeline

Zakim IRC Bot: manu1, you wanted to discuss LC timeline

14:57:44 <Benjamin> manu1: based on the timeline, should we skip this or not?

Manu Sporny: based on the timeline, should we skip this or not?

14:58:16 <manu1> ack ShaneM

Manu Sporny: ack ShaneM

14:58:17 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to discuss schedule

Zakim IRC Bot: ShaneM, you wanted to discuss schedule

14:59:20 <Benjamin> ivan: it's nearly finished and nobody spoke against the solution in the maining list. It's already implemented in my PyRDFa processor, so we know it works.

Ivan Herman: it's nearly finished and nobody spoke against the solution in the maining list. It's already implemented in my PyRDFa processor, so we know it works.

14:59:44 <Benjamin> shane: I don't want to change the schedule, we should deal with it if we have the time.

Shane McCarron: I don't want to change the schedule, we should deal with it if we have the time.

15:00:04 <manu1> q+ to end the call

Manu Sporny: q+ to end the call

15:00:13 <Benjamin> ivan: First priority should be the format of profile files

Ivan Herman: First priority should be the format of profile files

15:00:30 <Benjamin> manu1: three major issues are left: RDFa Profile file format, how to generate triples for object literals that are clearly URLs, and this RDF Collections issue.

Manu Sporny: three major issues are left: RDFa Profile file format, how to generate triples for object literals that are clearly URLs, and this RDF Collections issue.

15:01:20 <Benjamin> manu1: We'll handle the remaining issues in that order and stick to our timeline.

Manu Sporny: We'll handle the remaining issues in that order and stick to our timeline.



Formatted by CommonScribe


This revision (#1) generated 2010-09-23 15:55:14 UTC by 'msporny', comments: 'Filled in a number of gaps in the minutes, general cleanup.'