RDFa Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 16 September 2010

Agenda
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010Sep/0081.html
Present
Steven Pemberton, Manu Sporny, Toby Inkster, Mark Birbeck, Knud Möller, Shane McCarron
Regrets
Ivan Herman, Benjamin Adrian
Chair
Manu Sporny
Scribe
Knud Möller
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions
  1. Publish the latest RDFa draft as a heartbeat draft, adding diff-marked version: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/drafts/2010/WD-rdfa-api-20100912/ link
  2. RDFa API heartbeat draft to be published next Thursday (2010-09-23). link
Topics
13:53:51 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/16-rdfa-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/16-rdfa-irc

13:53:53 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

13:53:55 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 7332

13:53:55 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes

13:53:56 <trackbot> Meeting: RDFa Working Group Teleconference
13:53:56 <trackbot> Date: 16 September 2010
13:53:59 <manu1> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010Sep/0081.html
13:54:02 <manu1> Chair: Manu
13:54:14 <manu1> Present: Steven, Manu, Toby, MarkB, Knud, Shane
13:56:42 <manu1> Regrets: Ivan, Benjamin
13:56:42 <manu1> scribenick: Knud

(Scribe set to Knud Möller)

13:58:11 <markbirbeck> zakim, codes?

Mark Birbeck: zakim, codes?

13:58:11 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, markbirbeck.

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand your question, markbirbeck.

13:58:17 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?

Mark Birbeck: zakim, code?

13:58:18 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), markbirbeck

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), markbirbeck

14:00:24 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started

14:00:32 <Zakim> +??P27

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P27

14:00:40 <manu1> zakim, I am ??P27

Manu Sporny: zakim, I am ??P27

14:00:40 <Zakim> +manu1; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +manu1; got it

14:01:58 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617

Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617

14:01:58 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made

14:01:59 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven

14:03:30 <Zakim> +Knud

Zakim IRC Bot: +Knud

14:03:32 <Knud> zakim, mute me

zakim, mute me

14:03:45 <Zakim> Knud should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Knud should now be muted

14:04:19 <Zakim> +ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM

14:08:23 <Zakim> +??P2

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2

14:08:31 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am ?

Mark Birbeck: zakim, i am ?

14:08:31 <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +markbirbeck; got it

14:09:11 <Knud> TOPIC: RDFa API Heartbeat publication

1. RDFa API Heartbeat publication

14:09:28 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/drafts/2010/WD-rdfa-api-20100912/

Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/drafts/2010/WD-rdfa-api-20100912/

14:10:00 <Knud> manu: this version includes all of Ivan's comments, incl. two class diagrams

Manu Sporny: this version includes all of Ivan's comments, incl. two class diagrams

14:10:15 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/drafts/2010/WD-rdfa-api-20100912/#the-rdf-interfaces

Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/drafts/2010/WD-rdfa-api-20100912/#the-rdf-interfaces

14:10:31 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/drafts/2010/WD-rdfa-api-20100912/#the-linked-data-interfaces

Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/drafts/2010/WD-rdfa-api-20100912/#the-linked-data-interfaces

14:11:07 <Knud> ... still not 100% perfect, need to be adapted

... still not 100% perfect, need to be adapted

14:11:12 <markbirbeck> q+

Mark Birbeck: q+

14:11:58 <manu1> ack mark

Manu Sporny: ack mark

14:12:06 <Knud> ... diff still needs to be created

... diff still needs to be created

14:12:17 <Knud> mark: document looks pretty good!

Mark Birbeck: document looks pretty good!

14:12:56 <Knud> manu: for certain things, there are still issue markers in the document

Manu Sporny: for certain things, there are still issue markers in the document

14:14:04 <manu1> PROPOSAL: Publish the latest RDFa API draft as a heartbeat draft, adding diff-marked version: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/drafts/2010/WD-rdfa-api-20100912/

PROPOSED: Publish the latest RDFa API draft as a heartbeat draft, adding diff-marked version: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/drafts/2010/WD-rdfa-api-20100912/

14:14:14 <manu1> +1

Manu Sporny: +1

14:14:14 <markbirbeck> +1

Mark Birbeck: +1

14:14:17 <Knud> Knud: +1

Knud Möller: +1

14:14:19 <tinkster> +1

Toby Inkster: +1

14:14:32 <ShaneM> +1

Shane McCarron: +1

14:14:35 <Steven> +1

Steven Pemberton: +1

14:14:38 <Knud> (Ivan and Benjamin gave their approval for publication in W3C-archived team e-mail and public RDFa WG mailing list, respectively)

(Ivan and Benjamin gave their approval for publication in W3C-archived team e-mail and public RDFa WG mailing list, respectively)

14:14:50 <manu1> RESOLVED: Publish the latest RDFa draft as a heartbeat draft, adding diff-marked version: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/drafts/2010/WD-rdfa-api-20100912/

RESOLVED: Publish the latest RDFa draft as a heartbeat draft, adding diff-marked version: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/drafts/2010/WD-rdfa-api-20100912/

14:15:12 <Knud> TOPIC: Signal RDF/SemWeb/Linked Data of RDFa Heartbeat publication

2. Signal RDF/SemWeb/Linked Data of RDFa Heartbeat publication

14:16:18 <Knud> manu: we need to involve the RDF community into the RDFa API, because they feel we are in fact creating an RDF API

Manu Sporny: we need to involve the RDF community into the RDFa API, because they feel we are in fact creating an RDF API

14:17:07 <Knud> ... groups to contact: SWIG, RDF-Core, browser vendors, ...

... groups to contact: SWIG, RDF-Core, browser vendors, ...

14:17:44 <markbirbeck> q+

Mark Birbeck: q+

14:17:48 <Knud> ... LOD community

... LOD community

14:18:33 <tinkster> webapps wg!

Toby Inkster: webapps wg!

14:19:46 <Knud> steven: possible problem: our charter doesn't ask us to do anything more general than an RDFa API

Steven Pemberton: possible problem: our charter doesn't ask us to do anything more general than an RDFa API

14:20:25 <manu1> ack mark

Manu Sporny: ack mark

14:21:30 <Knud> mark: see last call, Ivan: changing the name should be discussed internally

Mark Birbeck: see last call, Ivan: changing the name should be discussed internally

14:22:19 <Knud> ... publish heartbeat first, then carefully find out what the community thinks: is the general nature of our API a problem?

... publish heartbeat first, then carefully find out what the community thinks: is the general nature of our API a problem?

14:22:54 <Knud> ... if we get pushback, we might think about what we could remove from the API

... if we get pushback, we might think about what we could remove from the API

14:23:24 <Knud> ... we have a good architecture in place, now we can possible factor out some things

... we have a good architecture in place, now we can possible factor out some things

14:23:30 <manu1> q+ to discuss extending the charter re: RDFa API

Manu Sporny: q+ to discuss extending the charter re: RDFa API

14:23:40 <Knud> ... we should leave as is for now

... we should leave as is for now

14:23:41 <manu1> ack

Manu Sporny: ack

14:24:05 <Knud> manu: extending the charter is possible, but probably the last thing we want to do

Manu Sporny: extending the charter is possible, but probably the last thing we want to do

14:24:22 <markbirbeck> q+

Mark Birbeck: q+

14:24:37 <manu1> ack

Manu Sporny: ack

14:24:39 <manu1> ack

Manu Sporny: ack

14:24:42 <Knud> ... we have a good story about integrating things like microdata, etc.

... we have a good story about integrating things like microdata, etc.

14:24:44 <manu1> ack manu1

Manu Sporny: ack manu1

14:24:44 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to discuss extending the charter re: RDFa API

Zakim IRC Bot: manu1, you wanted to discuss extending the charter re: RDFa API

14:24:48 <manu1> ack markbirbeck

Manu Sporny: ack markbirbeck

14:24:52 <Knud> ... so maybe we _do_ want to change the charter?

... so maybe we _do_ want to change the charter?

14:25:04 <Knud> mark: maybe we should let the community ask us to do this?

Mark Birbeck: maybe we should let the community ask us to do this?

14:25:50 <Knud> ... then we would have a discussion, and a good argument for changing the charter

... then we would have a discussion, and a good argument for changing the charter

14:27:49 <Knud> manu: judging from respnse to sandro h's questionnaire, there is a lot of interest in where RDF goes next

Manu Sporny: judging from respnse to sandro h's questionnaire, there is a lot of interest in where RDF goes next

14:28:11 <Knud> ... but there wasn't a question on an RDF API, so we don't know how much desire there is for one yet?

... but there wasn't a question on an RDF API, so we don't know how much desire there is for one yet?

14:28:56 <Knud> ... anyway, we should start getting a lot of feedback for the RDFa API

... anyway, we should start getting a lot of feedback for the RDFa API

14:29:27 <Knud> TOPIC: Processing remote documents via RDFa API

3. Processing remote documents via RDFa API

14:29:37 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/44

Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/44

14:30:13 <Knud> manu: concern is: how do we make sure the API can process triples from external/remote documents

Manu Sporny: concern is: how do we make sure the API can process triples from external/remote documents

14:30:37 <Knud> ... security issues

... security issues

14:31:52 <Knud> ... CORS might solve this in the future

... CORS might solve this in the future

14:32:07 <Knud> (http://www.w3.org/TR/cors/)

(http://www.w3.org/TR/cors/)

14:32:46 <Knud> ... this discussion is important e.g. for getting RDFa profile document

... this discussion is important e.g. for getting RDFa profile document

14:35:32 <markbirbeck> q+

Mark Birbeck: q+

14:35:38 <manu1> ack mark

Manu Sporny: ack mark

14:35:57 <Knud> ... we could be bold and suggest a special kind of communication policy for fetching RDFa documents

... we could be bold and suggest a special kind of communication policy for fetching RDFa documents

14:36:33 <Knud> mark: maybe suport some other formats

Mark Birbeck: maybe suport some other formats

14:36:55 <Knud> ... don't think security is our concern (at the spec level)

... don't think security is our concern (at the spec level)

14:37:10 <Knud> ... don't talk about http requests, cookies, CORS, etc. at the spec level

... don't talk about http requests, cookies, CORS, etc. at the spec level

14:37:14 <manu1> q+ to discuss CORS vs. no cookies.

Manu Sporny: q+ to discuss CORS vs. no cookies.

14:38:51 <Knud> ... we could move away from expressing profiles in RDFa and then use a policy such as for iframes, css, etc.

... we could move away from expressing profiles in RDFa and then use a policy such as for iframes, css, etc.

14:39:28 <ShaneM> I agree with Mark - rely upon other specs.

Shane McCarron: I agree with Mark - rely upon other specs.

14:39:38 <manu1> ack manu1

Manu Sporny: ack manu1

14:39:38 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to discuss CORS vs. no cookies.

Zakim IRC Bot: manu1, you wanted to discuss CORS vs. no cookies.

14:39:56 <ShaneM> but I wouldn't object to an implementors guide

Shane McCarron: but I wouldn't object to an implementors guide

14:40:11 <Knud> manu: I don't think there is any particular other spec we can rely on for the cookie problem

Manu Sporny: I don't think there is any particular other spec we can rely on for the cookie problem

14:40:48 <Knud> ... what makes RDFa unique is that currently, there isn't a whole lot of RDFa out there

... what makes RDFa unique is that currently, there isn't a whole lot of RDFa out there

14:41:28 <Knud> ... this gives us the opportunity to start from a blank slate. We can establish policies, best practices.

... this gives us the opportunity to start from a blank slate. We can establish policies, best practices.

14:41:45 <markbirbeck> q+

Mark Birbeck: q+

14:42:00 <ShaneM> q+ to ask why this is more serious for us?

Shane McCarron: q+ to ask why this is more serious for us?

14:42:35 <manu1> ack mark

Manu Sporny: ack mark

14:44:14 <manu1> q+ to discuss creating a wall for the developer

Manu Sporny: q+ to discuss creating a wall for the developer

14:44:32 <manu1> ack shanem

Manu Sporny: ack shanem

14:44:32 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to ask why this is more serious for us?

Zakim IRC Bot: ShaneM, you wanted to ask why this is more serious for us?

14:45:34 <Knud> shanem: it might be good to provide implementation guidance as non-normative text ...

Shane McCarron: it might be good to provide implementation guidance as non-normative text ...

14:45:54 <Knud> ... but be probably can really defer this to other specs

... but be probably can really defer this to other specs

14:45:56 <manu1> ack manu

Manu Sporny: ack manu

14:45:56 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to discuss creating a wall for the developer

Zakim IRC Bot: manu1, you wanted to discuss creating a wall for the developer

14:46:17 <Knud> ... yes, we have an opportunity here, but I don't want one. I don't see why.

... yes, we have an opportunity here, but I don't want one. I don't see why.

14:46:21 <markbirbeck> agree with ShaneM

Mark Birbeck: agree with ShaneM

14:47:44 <Knud> manu: if the developer were to fetch a remote documents, they would not have access to that complete document, but only to the extracted triples

Manu Sporny: if the developer were to fetch a remote documents, they would not have access to that complete document, but only to the extracted triples

14:49:45 <manu1> q+ to say that we can "violate" the security model.

Manu Sporny: q+ to say that we can "violate" the security model.

14:50:06 <Knud> mark: but we have to rely on xml-http request anyway - we can't add any other ways of accessing documents

Mark Birbeck: but we have to rely on xml-http request anyway - we can't add any other ways of accessing documents

14:50:21 <manu1> ack manu1

Manu Sporny: ack manu1

14:50:21 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to say that we can "violate" the security model.

Zakim IRC Bot: manu1, you wanted to say that we can "violate" the security model.

14:50:24 <Knud> ... we have to build on the existing stack, which has its own rules, which we inherit

... we have to build on the existing stack, which has its own rules, which we inherit

14:51:30 <ShaneM> q+ to talk about data in RDFa

Shane McCarron: q+ to talk about data in RDFa

14:51:36 <markbirbeck> q+

Mark Birbeck: q+

14:51:42 <manu1> ack shane

Manu Sporny: ack shane

14:51:42 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to talk about data in RDFa

Zakim IRC Bot: ShaneM, you wanted to talk about data in RDFa

14:51:47 <Knud> manu: again: we might be in the position to actually establish a _new_ security model for RDFa, which could be different than for HTML pages

Manu Sporny: again: we might be in the position to actually establish a _new_ security model for RDFa, which could be different than for HTML pages

14:51:53 <tinkster> For in-browser JS implementations, we have to build on XHR, so must inherit its limitations. For native browser implementations, and non-browser implementations, we needn't inherit those limitations.

Toby Inkster: For in-browser JS implementations, we have to build on XHR, so must inherit its limitations. For native browser implementations, and non-browser implementations, we needn't inherit those limitations.

14:52:50 <manu1> ack mark

Manu Sporny: ack mark

14:52:56 <Knud> mark: this sounds a bit naive. Just because the data is in RDFa, it doesn't mean it's not sensitive!

Mark Birbeck: this sounds a bit naive. Just because the data is in RDFa, it doesn't mean it's not sensitive!

14:53:06 <Knud> s/mark/shanem

s/mark/shanem

14:53:18 <ShaneM> I agree with tinkster - but I think that means we need to appreciate the limitations of the minimum.

Shane McCarron: I agree with tinkster - but I think that means we need to appreciate the limitations of the minimum.

14:53:50 <manu1> q+ to disagree that it's not desirable.

Manu Sporny: q+ to disagree that it's not desirable.

14:54:51 <Knud> mark: we don't need to discuss CORS, cookies, etc. We just need to rely on the security stack in the browser.

Mark Birbeck: we don't need to discuss CORS, cookies, etc. We just need to rely on the security stack in the browser.

14:54:56 <ShaneM> I agree with mark on this.  native browser implementations should adhere to the stack just like a JS implementation would.

Shane McCarron: I agree with mark on this. native browser implementations should adhere to the stack just like a JS implementation would.

14:54:57 <manu1> ack manu

Manu Sporny: ack manu

14:54:57 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to disagree that it's not desirable.

Zakim IRC Bot: manu1, you wanted to disagree that it's not desirable.

14:56:04 <markbirbeck> q+

Mark Birbeck: q+

14:56:37 <markbirbeck> Definitely agree with that.

Mark Birbeck: Definitely agree with that.

14:56:58 <manu1> ack mark

Manu Sporny: ack mark

14:57:11 <Knud> manu: maybe get some browser implementers input to see what they think

Manu Sporny: maybe get some browser implementers input to see what they think

14:57:51 <manu1> q+ to discuss research at our company on bypassing CORS.

Manu Sporny: q+ to discuss research at our company on bypassing CORS.

14:58:34 <Knud> mark: yes, getting things from other places (remote documents) is desirable. Something has to be done about it. But probably not in our spec.

Mark Birbeck: yes, getting things from other places (remote documents) is desirable. Something has to be done about it. But probably not in our spec.

14:59:21 <Knud> shanem: "What, does the Semantic Web require a Web?!"

Shane McCarron: "What, does the Semantic Web require a Web?!"

15:02:29 <manu1> ack manu1

Manu Sporny: ack manu1

15:02:29 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to discuss research at our company on bypassing CORS.

Zakim IRC Bot: manu1, you wanted to discuss research at our company on bypassing CORS.

15:02:36 <manu1> q+ to end the telecon

Manu Sporny: q+ to end the telecon

15:04:00 <manu1> PROPOSAL: RDFa API heartbeat draft to be published next Thursday (2010-09-23).

PROPOSED: RDFa API heartbeat draft to be published next Thursday (2010-09-23).

15:04:08 <Knud> Knud: +1

Knud Möller: +1

15:04:09 <markbirbeck> +1

Mark Birbeck: +1

15:04:11 <manu1> +1

Manu Sporny: +1

15:04:13 <ShaneM> +1

Shane McCarron: +1

15:04:40 <manu1> RESOLVED: RDFa API heartbeat draft to be published next Thursday (2010-09-23).

RESOLVED: RDFa API heartbeat draft to be published next Thursday (2010-09-23).



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This revision (#1) generated 2010-09-16 15:25:57 UTC by 'msporny', comments: 'Minor changes to clean up minutes.'