10:00:29 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mediafrag
10:00:29 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-irc
10:00:31 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
10:00:31 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #mediafrag
10:00:33 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be IA_MFWG
10:00:33 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see IA_MFWG()5:00AM already started
10:00:34 <trackbot> Meeting: Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference
10:00:34 <trackbot> Date: 24 February 2010
10:02:46 <raphael> raphael has joined #mediafrag
10:04:27 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
10:05:01 <Zakim> +Yves
10:05:11 <erik> regrets: raphael
10:07:10 <erik> present: yves, michael, davy, erik
10:07:49 <erik> present+ silvia
10:08:49 <erik> TOPIC: Admin
10:09:06 <jackjansen> jackjansen has joined #mediafrag
10:09:11 <davy> scribenick: erik
10:09:13 <erik> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Feb/0072.html
10:09:47 <erik> Accept the minutes at http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-minutes.html
10:10:04 <davy> +1
10:10:08 <erik> +1
10:10:20 <silvia> +1
10:10:29 <Yves> +1
10:10:31 <Zakim> + +31.20.592.aabb
10:10:44 <jackjansen> zakim, aabb is me
10:10:44 <Zakim> +jackjansen; got it
10:11:25 <Zakim> -Erik&Davy
10:12:03 <Zakim> +Erik&Davy
10:12:38 <davy> Zakim, unmute erik
10:12:38 <Zakim> Erik&Davy was not muted, davy
10:14:01 <Zakim> -Erik&Davy
10:15:45 <Zakim> + +329331aacc
10:17:18 <davy> scribenick: davy
10:17:46 <davy> Erik: charter extension: everything fine, but milestones need to be adjusted
10:18:27 <davy> Action: raphael to adjust the milestones in the charter
10:18:27 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - raphael
10:18:44 <raphael> ah, thanks :-)
10:18:49 <davy> TOPIC: 3. SPECIFICATION:
10:18:57 <raphael> ACTION: troncy to adjust the milestones in the charter
10:18:57 <trackbot> Created ACTION-145 - Adjust the milestones in the charter [on Raphaël Troncy - due 2010-03-03].
10:19:25 <raphael> ... actually on the group front page since we cannot change the charter, but the charter refers to the group home page for the changes
10:19:38 <erik> action-143?
10:19:38 <trackbot> ACTION-143 -- Silvia Pfeiffer to move 5.1.5 into a new section -- due 2010-02-24 -- OPEN
10:19:38 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/143
10:19:53 <erik> action-144?
10:19:53 <trackbot> ACTION-144 -- Silvia Pfeiffer to move the section 5.1.1 to the top -- due 2010-02-24 -- OPEN
10:19:53 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/144
10:19:54 <silvia> not done yet
10:20:01 <silvia> neither that one
10:20:05 <silvia> I promised it for F2F
10:20:13 <erik> ok, actions still going on
10:20:36 <davy> erik: status about changes in the header syntax?
10:21:02 <davy> yves: made modifications in the wiki regarding philip's remarks
10:21:46 <davy> ... only do it in the spec if we switch back to ABNF
10:22:04 <davy> jack: I'm fine with either ABNF or EBNF
10:22:23 <davy> yves: I have tools for ABNF only
10:23:10 <davy> jack: no reason why we switched to EBNF, I don't see an advantage to use EBNF
10:23:17 <silvia> I don't mind either - if you prefer to switch back to ABNF, go for it
10:23:41 <silvia> I think Philip found it easier to write, but that doesn't have to influence everyone else
10:23:56 <davy> jack: if Yves prefers ABNF, then I also prefer ABNF
10:24:05 <davy> yves: will continue in ABNF
10:24:25 <davy> ... also create a section where all the ABNF is located together
10:24:34 <davy> ... having a single view of the grammar
10:25:45 <davy> erik: propose to use ABNF to represent the grammar
10:26:23 <jackjansen> PROPOSAL: dtddadada??? Ok, +1 :-)
10:26:33 <jackjansen> I know...
10:26:34 <davy> PROPOSAL: use ABNF to represent the grammar, because of the existence of tools
10:26:50 <erik> +1
10:26:51 <mhausenblas> +1
10:26:54 <davy> +1
10:26:55 <jackjansen> +1
10:27:08 <davy> RESOLUTION: ABNF will be used to represent the grammar
10:27:50 <davy> yves: a-126 is still ongoing
10:28:06 <davy> ... should be able to do it today
10:28:27 <silvia> while you're at it, can you look at writing ABNF for the HTTP headers, too?
10:28:36 <Yves> yep
10:28:38 <Yves> that's the plan
10:28:43 <davy> erik: a-135 is still ongoing
10:28:57 <davy> jack: a-137 is also ongoing
10:29:17 <silvia> see note in 5.2.2 and 5.2.3
10:29:21 <davy> issue-5?
10:29:21 <trackbot> ISSUE-5 -- Handling spatial cropping requires information at client-side -- OPEN
10:29:21 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/issues/5
10:30:20 <davy> erik: we must asap reach LC
10:30:33 <davy> ... if this is only with the temporal dimension, so be it
10:30:57 <jackjansen> silvia, can you re-raise in AOB?
10:31:04 <davy> TOPIC: 4. TEST CASES
10:31:36 <mhausenblas> ACTION-118?
10:31:36 <trackbot> ACTION-118 -- Michael Hausenblas to come up with individual 'normal' test cases (+/- 20) -- due 2009-10-07 -- OPEN
10:31:36 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/118
10:31:39 <raphael> I second silvia question, re: quotes in the syntax
10:31:49 <raphael> Silvia, please, write your comments not in /me
10:32:07 <silvia> re: ABNF - are we dropping the quotes on the fragment values?
10:32:34 <silvia> just FYI - the "s" in npt dimension has already been dropped in spec
10:32:52 <jackjansen> silvia, we first continue with 4, then get to 3.5
10:33:18 <davy> michael: a-118 continues untill next week
10:33:32 <mhausenblas> ACTION-108?
10:33:32 <trackbot> ACTION-108 -- Michael Hausenblas to add the missing test cases in corrib -- due 2009-11-16 -- OPEN
10:33:32 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/108
10:33:39 <mhausenblas> close ACTION-108
10:33:39 <trackbot> ACTION-108 Add the missing test cases in corrib closed
10:33:53 <mhausenblas> http://ld2sd.deri.org/corrib/
10:34:10 <mhausenblas> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Feb/0019.html
10:34:40 <davy> michael: we can review them one by one
10:34:43 <silvia> indeed - I was going to ask if people had had the time to check out those test cases for the time dimension
10:35:26 <davy> jack: are the test cases already in a state that we can see that all the boundary cases can be seen
10:35:49 <silvia> can we focus on time dimension for now and check there that we have all the boundary cases?
10:35:58 <erik> michael: focus is on temporal dimension only
10:36:15 <davy> michael: not totally sure, there might be at least a couple of test cases that are not yet covered
10:36:35 <davy> jack: I will look at it
10:37:02 <silvia> in my list I abstracted away from concrete values into t=a,b
10:37:21 <silvia> then I looked at the values that a and b can take compared to each other and compared to start, end of file
10:37:34 <silvia> in this way, I tried capturing all the possibilities
10:38:06 <silvia> these are all no errors:
10:38:07 <silvia> * Non-errors: b>=a
10:38:08 <silvia>   t=a,b -> 200: set playback to a-b
10:38:08 <silvia>   t=a,  -> 200: set playback to a-end
10:38:08 <silvia>   t=,b  -> 200: set playback to start-b
10:38:08 <silvia>   t=a,b with a=b -> 200: set playback to a
10:38:09 <silvia>   t=a,b with a<start -> 200: set playback to start-b
10:38:11 <silvia>   t=a,b  with a>end -> 200: set playback to end
10:38:13 <silvia>   t=a,b with b>end -> 200: set playback to a-end
10:38:15 <silvia>   t=a,b with b<start -> 200: set playback to start
10:38:59 <davy> michael: in the F2F, we should make a final decision regarding the test cases of temporal fragments
10:39:25 <davy> jack: I missed b > end
10:39:56 <mhausenblas> Michael: will add t=a,b with b>end and  t=a,b with b<start
10:40:13 <davy> jack: also miss b<a
10:40:34 <jackjansen> silvia, both
10:40:41 <silvia> it's in the list above
10:40:50 <mhausenblas> we're looking at corrib ATM, but jackjansen referred to in general
10:41:10 <silvia> b>end is, the other is in an error list
10:41:27 <silvia> * non-existent
10:41:27 <silvia>   example: t=b,a with b>a (e.g. t=20,10)
10:41:27 <silvia>   -> 200: ignore fragment
10:42:10 <davy> michael: it's easy to add/edit test cases in corrib
10:42:17 <davy> ... everyone can do it
10:42:28 <silvia> and I also have this one that we haven't had before:
10:42:29 <silvia> * Validity errors: value cannot be parsed for dimension
10:42:29 <silvia>   example: t=asdf
10:42:29 <silvia>   -> 200: ignore fragment (retrieve full resource, but with this adapted URL)
10:42:29 <silvia>   note: browsers already do this
10:43:16 <silvia> further, I think we need to change TC0002
10:43:17 <silvia> * TC0002: empty time segment - npt (see also above)
10:43:18 <silvia>   examples: t=0,0 ; t=3,3
10:43:18 <silvia>   -> 200: retrieve whatever the browser needs to set up playback and
10:43:18 <silvia> set the playback position to the offset
10:43:18 <silvia>   NOTE: this is different to what we currently have at
10:43:19 <silvia> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/TestCases
10:43:29 <mhausenblas> silivia, you're aware of that you can edit TC in corrib yourself?
10:43:37 <davy> Action: Jack to identify and add in corrib any missing test cases for temporal fragments
10:43:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-146 - Identify and add in corrib any missing test cases for temporal fragments [on Jack Jansen - due 2010-03-03].
10:43:51 <silvia> I thought we are discussing here whether we agree on those test cases and their results
10:45:13 <silvia> the reason for my questions / list was that I wanted these in the spec as well as in corrib, so developers can refer to it
10:45:18 <mhausenblas> silivia, I'll change the ownership re TC10-17 to you soon
10:46:03 <erik> s/silivia/silvia
10:46:54 <erik> michael: 'contributor' = 'one who raised the TC'
10:47:13 <silvia> hmm, according to http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/TestCases they are multi dimensional - wasn't really focused on that yet
10:47:33 <mhausenblas> ACTION: mhausenb to add all MF WG members to corrib
10:47:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-147 - Add all MF WG members to corrib [on Michael Hausenblas - due 2010-03-03].
10:47:52 <mhausenblas> ACTION: mhausenb to add a copy TC functionality
10:47:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-148 - Add a copy TC functionality [on Michael Hausenblas - due 2010-03-03].
10:49:15 <mhausenblas> ACTION: mhausenb to come up with a fix for overview vs. edit single TC
10:49:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-149 - Come up with a fix for overview vs. edit single TC [on Michael Hausenblas - due 2010-03-03].
10:49:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html davy
10:51:06 <davy> jack: if we change the syntax, then someone needs to be responsible to modify the related test cases
10:52:26 <mhausenblas> Michael: there is also an issue tracker for corrib in case you find a bug or want to request a feature
10:52:29 <mhausenblas> ... http://bitbucket.org/mhausenblas/corrib/issues/?status=new&status=open
10:52:37 <davy> TOPIC: 3.1 Media Fragment URI syntax
10:52:56 <davy> erik: do we keep the quotes around track names and ids?
10:53:53 <Yves> p
10:53:58 <erik> also see: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Feb/0071.html
10:53:59 <Yves> s/p//
10:54:44 <davy> jack: percent escapes of ? and & seems to work in the browser
10:55:08 <davy> ... which indicates that we don't need quotes (on condition that we have percent escaping)
10:55:43 <erik> ... reinvestigation is still needed!
10:55:49 <silvia> which philip introduced into the spec
10:56:10 <jackjansen> s/don't/do/
10:56:51 <silvia> oh!
10:57:23 <erik> jack: syntax of ? and # should be the same
10:57:31 <davy> jack: we should first investigate how percent escaping works
10:58:53 <erik> jack: what about client vs serverside ... should be the same at both sides
10:58:56 <mhausenblas> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#section-2.1
10:59:02 <davy> s/escaping/encoding
11:00:12 <mhausenblas> and http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#section-2.4
11:00:42 <davy> yves: before doing percent-encoding, the url is split up
11:01:21 <jackjansen> If I compare section 2.1 to what I posted to the mailing list then it seems the behaviousr I saw is wrong.
11:02:06 <erik> yves: URI-syntax is not clear on what should be returned on client or server .... therefore no ambiguity if we use quotes
11:02:08 <jackjansen> 2.4 states that even more clearly
11:02:16 <silvia> according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percent-encoding, last section, only the names and values of a CGI query are encoded
11:02:24 <davy> yves: quotes remove ambiguity
11:03:04 <davy> jack: so youtube is not compliant to RFC3986?
11:03:10 <jackjansen> This works: http://www.youtube.com/watch%3fv=FwJduPtCvSM%26feature=rec-r2-2r-1-HM
11:03:13 <erik> rrsagent, draft minutes
11:03:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html erik
11:03:14 <jackjansen> and it shouldn't
11:03:34 <mhausenblas> my friend re URIs is http://www.websitedev.de/temp/rfc3986-check.html.gz
11:03:42 <jackjansen> So, it seems that rfc3986 isn't followed by at least one major site
11:03:48 <mhausenblas> lets you check stuff quite nicely
11:04:48 <silvia> I think the "Under normal circumstances" part is important
11:05:01 <jackjansen> ref?
11:05:12 <silvia> I think in essence rfc3986 lets every server do what it wants
11:05:15 <jackjansen> got it 
11:05:26 <silvia> link above - http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3986#section-2.4
11:05:46 <silvia> but it suggests parsing before percent encoding
11:06:03 <silvia> to make it easier for the server to determine the components
11:06:22 <silvia> doesn't stop a server from trying to interpret a url that has more than just the components url encoded
11:07:09 <silvia> I think we can safely prescribe url encoding the way Philip has currently done it and it follows section 2.4
11:08:05 <jackjansen> I am not sure I agree. I am not convinced that we can remove the quotes for queries.
11:08:17 <silvia> that is a different matter altoghether, I think
11:08:26 <silvia> what problem do the quotes solve?
11:08:36 <jackjansen> escaping ampersands
11:08:42 <jackjansen> eric??
11:09:42 <silvia> I seem to remember having had a problem where the quotes introduced more confusion than helped, but cannot now find it
11:09:49 <silvia> anyway, I guess we're out of time :)
11:10:06 <davy> Action: Erik to summarize the discussion on the quotes in a mail or on the wiki
11:10:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-150 - Summarize the discussion on the quotes in a mail or on the wiki [on Erik Mannens - due 2010-03-03].
11:10:19 <Zakim> -mhausenblas
11:10:20 <davy> [adjourned]
11:10:21 <jackjansen> bye!
11:10:21 <Zakim> -jackjansen
11:10:23 <Zakim> -Yves
11:10:27 <Zakim> -Erik&Davy
11:10:28 <Zakim> IA_MFWG()5:00AM has ended
11:10:29 <Zakim> Attendees were +0329331aaaa, mhausenblas, Yves, Erik&Davy, +31.20.592.aabb, jackjansen, +329331aacc
11:10:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html davy
11:10:56 <davy> chair: erik
11:10:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html davy
11:11:18 <silvia> thanks everyone!
11:11:34 <silvia> btw: we're only talking about quotes for track and id dimensions, right?
11:11:50 <davy> yup
11:12:42 <silvia> davy: is your implementation using quotes?
11:13:04 <davy> yes
11:14:25 <erik> rrsagent, draft minutes
11:14:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-minutes.html erik
11:14:32 <silvia> ok - I don't think I mind either way actually
11:14:41 <erik> rrsagent, please part
11:14:41 <RRSAgent> I see 7 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-actions.rdf :
11:14:41 <RRSAgent> ACTION: raphael to adjust the milestones in the charter [1]
11:14:41 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-irc#T10-18-27
11:14:41 <RRSAgent> ACTION: troncy to adjust the milestones in the charter [2]
11:14:41 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-irc#T10-18-57
11:14:41 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Jack to identify and add in corrib any missing test cases for temporal fragments [3]
11:14:41 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-irc#T10-43-37
11:14:41 <RRSAgent> ACTION: mhausenb to add all MF WG members to corrib [4]
11:14:41 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-irc#T10-47-33
11:14:41 <RRSAgent> ACTION: mhausenb to add a copy TC functionality [5]
11:14:41 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-irc#T10-47-52
11:14:41 <RRSAgent> ACTION: mhausenb to come up with a fix for overview vs. edit single TC [6]
11:14:41 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-irc#T10-49-15
11:14:41 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Erik to summarize the discussion on the quotes in a mail or on the wiki [7]
11:14:41 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-mediafrag-irc#T11-10-06
11:15:05 <davy> indeed, me neither