16:51:19 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #core
16:51:19 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-core-irc
16:51:28 <aphillip> zakim, this will be I18N
16:51:28 <Zakim> ok, aphillip; I see I18N_CoreWG()12:30PM scheduled to start in 39 minutes
16:51:37 <aphillip> RRSAgent, set logs world-visible
16:51:52 <aphillip> Meeting: Internationalization Teleconference
16:51:57 <aphillip> Chair: Addison Phillips
16:52:02 <aphillip> Scribe: Addison Phillips
16:52:05 <aphillip> ScribeNick: aphillip
16:52:30 <aphillip> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2010Feb/0018.html
16:52:36 <aphillip> Regrets: Felix
16:52:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-core-minutes.html aphillip
16:53:26 <andrewc> andrewc has joined #core
16:54:21 <aphillip> Agenda add-ons: ITS in Widgets, XHTML PER
17:25:38 <David> David has joined #core
17:25:54 <David> Hello all
17:29:20 <r12a> r12a has joined #core
17:29:31 <Aharon> Aharon has joined #core
17:29:51 <r12a> zakim, dial richard please
17:29:51 <Zakim> ok, r12a; the call is being made
17:29:52 <Zakim> I18N_CoreWG()12:30PM has now started
17:29:53 <Zakim> +Richard
17:30:16 <r12a> zakim, who's here ?
17:30:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see Richard
17:30:17 <Zakim> On IRC I see Aharon, r12a, David, andrewc, RRSAgent, Zakim, aphillip
17:30:30 <r12a> hi andrew
17:30:34 <r12a> hi addison
17:30:42 <Zakim> +aphillip
17:30:43 <Zakim> + +41.88.8.aaaa
17:30:44 <aphillip> hi richard
17:31:16 <Zakim> +??P1
17:31:17 <David> zakim, +41 david
17:31:17 <Zakim> I don't understand '+41 david', David
17:31:39 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:32:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-core-minutes.html aphillip
17:33:48 <aphillip> Topic: Agenda
17:33:57 <aphillip> its in widgets and xhtml per added to agenda
17:34:24 <aphillip> Topic: Action Items
17:34:39 <aphillip> Richard: respond on our behalf to CSS on ruby issue 
17:34:42 <aphillip> in progress
17:34:54 <aphillip> Dan: update draft to support option C for specifying preferences in ws-i18n 
17:35:05 <aphillip> Richard: while awaiting comments, port the document to W3C WG Note format and prepare for publication as a First Public Working Draft. 
17:35:17 <aphillip> basically done, some tweaks remain
17:35:50 <aphillip> link to follow
17:35:52 <aphillip> all, to review http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/BidiProposal and comment on public-i18n-core mailing list, with a view to agreeing to move forward with publication as FPWD on 22nd during telecon 
17:36:12 <aphillip> Topic: Info Share
17:36:36 <aphillip> david: doing a review of MS WebExpressions3
17:36:50 <aphillip> ... actually generates stds compliant
17:36:57 <najib> najib has joined #core
17:37:26 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/docs/html-bidi-requirements/
17:37:40 <aphillip> richard: above is the link to the note-ified bidi document
17:38:03 <aphillip> richard: Najib joined via IRC from Rabat (note to other attendees)...
17:38:08 <aphillip> Welcome Najib
17:38:27 <aphillip> Topic: HTML Issue-88
17:38:44 <aphillip> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2010Feb/0022.html
17:39:25 <aphillip> richard: discussion on html list
17:39:40 <aphillip> ... hixie wants to change <meta ... content-language> to have only one language
17:39:45 <aphillip> ... not how it works now
17:39:55 <aphillip> ... hixie thinks they use it differently
17:40:26 <aphillip> ... summary of various events as in email
17:41:04 <najib> Hello to all!
17:41:21 <aphillip> addison: was surprised by hixie's latest reaction
17:41:51 <aphillip> andrew: he believes that older docs should be able to pass at html5
17:42:29 <aphillip> ... change to <meta> would go against that
17:43:18 <aphillip> richard: this is meta information as opposed to attribute based information
17:44:35 <aphillip> ... introduces more confusion, since the syntax changes
17:44:47 <aphillip> ... and blurs the meta data usage
17:45:02 <Zakim> +??P25
17:45:07 <fantasai> fantasai has joined #core
17:45:16 <aphillip> richard: will WG support comments
17:45:17 <r12a> hi elika
17:45:20 <fantasai> RRSAgent: pointer
17:45:20 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-core-irc#T17-45-20
17:45:51 <aphillip> andrew: supports it
17:46:01 <aphillip> david: think the inconsistency argument belongs also
17:46:02 <fantasai> zakim, fantasia is fantasai
17:46:02 <Zakim> +fantasai; got it
17:46:07 <aphillip> addison: I support it
17:46:16 <r12a> fantasai: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2010Feb/0022.html
17:46:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-core-minutes.html aphillip
17:50:32 <aphillip> ACTION: richard: send WG response on Issue-88 based on your email to Hixie and HTML-WG
17:50:48 <najib> q+
17:51:04 <aphillip> ack najib
17:51:16 <aphillip> najib?
17:51:32 <najib> About the bidi proposal. 
17:51:38 <najib> Happy to see it as WG proposal.  
17:51:45 <najib> At a first reading, I have some remarks about the examples given in section 2.1
17:51:51 <najib> I think we can summarize them into more simple problem statement.
17:51:56 <najib> I'm going to send an email about it.
17:52:02 <najib> I'll send other feedbacks later on.
17:52:08 <najib> That's all.
17:52:29 <aphillip> addison: great! thank you. look forward to the email.
17:52:37 <aphillip> Topic: XHTML PER
17:52:56 <aphillip> richard: proposed edited rec through process
17:53:13 <aphillip> ... domain leader: they reference RFC 3066 (or its successor)
17:53:20 <r12a> [BCP47]
17:53:20 <r12a>     Tags for Identifying Languages, A. Phillips and M. Davis, Editors, September 2006. 
17:53:20 <r12a>     Available at http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/bcp/bcp47.txt
17:53:25 <aphillip> ... would make sense as PER to change to BCP 47
17:53:44 <aphillip> addison: that's the old date
17:53:51 <aphillip> ... point to 5646
17:54:23 <aphillip> Topic: Bidi Proposal
17:54:44 <r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/docs/html-bidi-requirements/
17:55:02 <aphillip> note format of document, link above
17:55:13 <aphillip> today... start moving to FPWD
17:55:21 <aphillip> ... we gave WG a week to review
17:55:33 <aphillip> ... after FPWD, wide announcement and receive comments
17:55:45 <aphillip> addison: separate comments list or winter?
17:55:52 <aphillip> richard: discussing with Aharaon
17:56:15 <aphillip> ... need to move to w3c list to support process
17:56:20 <aphillip> ... thinking of using winter
17:56:43 <aphillip> ... should there be separate IG list, now or later?
17:58:33 <Aharon> About 40 people on my list.
17:59:31 <aphillip> andrew: ask the 40 people what they prefer?
17:59:41 <Aharon> Good idea - will ask.
18:01:12 <aphillip> addison: it is proposed that we publish as FPWD
18:01:25 <aphillip> ... are there any objections? anything we need to do first?
18:01:55 <aphillip> andrew: may need to do some things first
18:02:21 <aphillip> ... trying to work out which part are initiated by consistency/bugs in browsers
18:02:30 <aphillip> ... which are just good ideas
18:02:39 <aphillip> ... and which are bad design workarounds
18:02:50 <aphillip> ... and then some things where I think "should it work that way?"
18:03:11 <aphillip> ... useful to publish wide to get more comments
18:03:18 <aphillip> richard: not necessary to be polished
18:04:29 <aphillip> andrew: yes, publish, but personally wondering if we'd be better off filing bugs; some things more developer stuff
18:04:38 <aphillip> ... rahter than things to fix in html
18:04:45 <aphillip> ...but some things need fixing in html5
18:05:15 <aphillip> andrew: need to be more distinct about which things go where
18:05:35 <aphillip> richard: think its all good stuff
18:05:44 <aphillip> .. and good to get into htnml5 spec
18:05:52 <aphillip> s/htnml/html/
18:06:14 <aphillip> ... tell implementers what they ought to do but tryijng to ensure they actually do it via html5
18:06:44 <aphillip> ... otherwise vendors may not take action or may "innovate"
18:07:10 <aphillip> andrew: parts for developers should be more explicitly written for that audience
18:07:42 <aphillip> addison: useful to send explicit comment
18:07:58 <aphillip> fantasai: sent most of comments in via email
18:08:16 <aphillip> ... one about algorithm and conformance implementations
18:08:26 <aphillip> ... and the general confusion about having more than one
18:08:37 <aphillip> fantasai: and bdi not neutral
18:09:26 <aphillip> chair: anyone against publishing as FPWD
18:09:48 <aphillip> fantasai: support publication
18:09:53 <aphillip> andrew: support moving forward
18:10:00 <aphillip> addison: +1
18:10:11 <aphillip> aharon: safely assume I do too
18:10:19 <aphillip> david: +1
18:10:30 <aphillip> resolved: publish bidi document as FPWD
18:10:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-core-minutes.html aphillip
18:11:09 <najib> +1
18:11:12 <aphillip> richard: bring up idea about a second document more squarely targetted at CSS
18:11:23 <aphillip> aharon: interested in collaborating on it
18:12:21 <aphillip> addison: information for authors, perhaps tutorials? or what?
18:12:41 <aphillip> aharon: meant to help browser vendors implement better
18:12:53 <aphillip> ... some things missing are
18:13:18 <aphillip> ... control over kind of numerals to use
18:14:18 <fantasai> that would be a text-transform value
18:14:20 <aphillip> (such as using language to do numeric shaping)
18:14:37 <aphillip> aharon: left-right commonly used instead of start-end
18:14:43 <najib> There is a Bidi problem  with  CSS, display
18:14:49 <najib> Sorry
18:15:16 <najib> There is a Bidi problem with CSS, display inline.
18:15:30 <aphillip> ... just adding start-end doesn't solve problem, since ancestor may affect it
18:15:53 <aphillip> ... float start or end depends on context, padding, etc.
18:16:14 <aphillip> aharon: some tools exist to mirror a CSS file offline
18:16:22 <aphillip> ... should not require an offline tool to do it
18:16:55 <r12a> q+
18:17:02 <aphillip> aharon: explicit control over scroll bar location
18:17:20 <aphillip> fantasai: css wg has carefully avoided scroll bar positioning
18:17:49 <aphillip> ... selectors based on direction of element
18:18:05 <aphillip> ... would have to do that at selectors matching time
18:18:13 <aphillip> ... performance impact could be large
18:18:27 <aphillip> ... start/end properties has been discussed but not considered urgent
18:18:40 <aphillip> ... no objection for stuff like float
18:18:55 <aphillip> ... but significant complications for stuff like padding (and vast number thereof)
18:19:17 <aphillip> fantasai: problems (rather than features) should be done sooner rather than later
18:19:24 <aphillip> ... as CSS1 wants to be done
18:19:31 <aphillip> ... do in next month or so
18:19:36 <fantasai> s/CSS1/CSS2.1/
18:19:38 <aphillip> ack r12a
18:19:43 <fantasai> s/complications/cascading complications/
18:19:54 <aphillip> r12a: sounds like a lot to be done, but needs more thought
18:20:06 <aphillip> ... a discuss right now on CSS WG list on start-end
18:20:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-core-minutes.html aphillip
18:20:37 <aphillip> r12a: @ f2f about 18months ago floated
18:20:45 <najib> Q+ to ask if scroll bar is matter of GUI, rather than style
18:20:48 <aphillip> ... css folks felt people might not need that?
18:21:11 <aphillip> ... describe what you want to be able to do and make case for that it would help a lot
18:21:24 <aphillip> ... CSS needs to hear from field users
18:21:33 <aphillip> ack najib
18:21:33 <Zakim> najib, you wanted to ask if scroll bar is matter of GUI, rather than style
18:21:51 <aphillip> fantasai: kind of affects both
18:22:26 <aphillip> ... if author knows more content will appear, want to force scroll bars (or hide them) 
18:22:37 <aphillip> ... to prevent layout jumping
18:22:49 <aphillip> r12a: default behavior part of GUI
18:22:55 <aphillip> ... but maybe override that??
18:23:05 <aphillip> ... text transform is like that too?
18:23:14 <najib> q-
18:24:17 <aphillip> fantasai: send any problems to CSS 2.1 right away
18:24:22 <aphillip> ... and then do feature requests
18:24:33 <Aharon> Would it be possible for fantasai to provide links to existing work and discussions on relevant topics?
18:24:40 <aphillip> r12a: real showstoppers
18:25:04 <aphillip> ... so that css can close down
18:25:26 <aphillip> fantasai: be sure that all 2.1 issues get to them in next month or two
18:25:49 <fantasai> Issues that impact HTML may also impact CSS
18:26:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-core-minutes.html aphillip
18:26:32 <Aharon> Thank you!
18:26:35 <fantasai> CSS can't be inconsistent with HTML
18:26:50 <fantasai> so, e.g., if white space behavior is changed for HTML it has to be changed for CSS too
18:26:50 <aphillip> fantasai: think a document like the html focused documenbt would be very useful
18:27:05 <aphillip> s/documenbt/document/
18:27:27 <aphillip> Aharon: can fantasai help me identify what should be directed to CSS?
18:27:53 <aphillip> fantasai: whitespace, bullets, ... anything that doesn't pertain to markup rather than html
18:28:13 <aphillip> aharon: will make first pass to identify CSS issues
18:28:29 <aphillip> ... so if you can proofread, that would be really great
18:28:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-core-minutes.html aphillip
18:30:55 <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visuren.html#direction
18:30:55 <aphillip> Topic: ITS and Widgets
18:31:40 <aphillip> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2010Feb/0025.html
18:31:49 <aphillip> addison to attend too?
18:31:57 <aphillip> it's at 6AM
18:33:10 <aphillip> richard: discussed with ITS
18:33:19 <aphillip> ... could drop namespace as long as behavior is there
18:33:32 <aphillip> ... e.g. span and dir rather than its:span
18:34:03 <aphillip> ... showed me example with both dir and its:dir
18:34:56 <Zakim> -fantasai
18:34:57 <fantasai> fantasai has left #core
18:36:21 <aphillip> Topic: AOB?
18:37:38 <aphillip> ACTION: richard: publish FPWD of Bidi WG-Note and complete all transreq requirements pertaining thereto
18:37:57 <Zakim> -David
18:37:59 <Zakim> -aphillip
18:38:01 <Zakim> -Aharon
18:38:02 <Zakim> -Richard
18:38:09 <aphillip> rrsagent, make minutes
18:38:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-core-minutes.html aphillip
18:38:11 <Zakim> -andrewc
18:38:12 <Zakim> I18N_CoreWG()12:30PM has ended
18:38:13 <Zakim> Attendees were Richard, aphillip, +41.88.8.aaaa, David, [IPcaller], Aharon, andrewc, fantasai
18:38:34 <aphillip> zakim, bye
18:38:34 <Zakim> Zakim has left #core
18:38:41 <aphillip> RRSagent, bye
18:38:41 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-core-actions.rdf :
18:38:41 <RRSAgent> ACTION: richard: send WG response on Issue-88 based on your email to Hixie and HTML-WG [1]
18:38:41 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-core-irc#T17-50-32
18:38:41 <RRSAgent> ACTION: richard: publish FPWD of Bidi WG-Note and complete all transreq requirements pertaining thereto [2]
18:38:41 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-core-irc#T18-37-38