IRC log of CSS on 2010-02-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:43:03 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #CSS
16:43:04 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-CSS-irc
16:43:12 [glazou]
Zakim, this will be Style
16:43:12 [Zakim]
ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 17 minutes
16:43:18 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make logs public
16:56:33 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
16:56:40 [Zakim]
+glazou_sick
16:57:11 [glazou]
LOL
16:57:18 [glazou]
Zakim, glazou_sick is me
16:57:18 [Zakim]
+glazou; got it
16:57:53 [oyvind]
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+smfr
16:59:44 [dbaron]
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-glazou
17:00:08 [Zakim]
+[Mozilla]
17:00:21 [Zakim]
-smfr
17:00:28 [smfr]
stupid AT&T
17:00:39 [Zakim]
+smfr
17:00:59 [Zakim]
+glazou
17:01:17 [dethbakin]
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+dethbakin
17:02:28 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
17:02:37 [Zakim]
+Bert
17:02:43 [sylvaing]
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17:02:53 [Zakim]
+SteveZ
17:03:01 [Zakim]
+ +200000aaaa
17:04:06 [Zakim]
+plinss
17:04:21 [glazou]
we have regrets from dsinger, molly and bradk
17:07:07 [szilles]
Scribenick: szilles
17:07:31 [szilles]
DG: Light agenda, mostly from last week
17:08:09 [szilles]
DG: we should start a discussion of coming F2F, agenda items, schedules, attendance
17:08:39 [szilles]
Agenda: 1. Follow up on Image Position and Image Fit
17:08:58 [glazou]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jan/0476.html
17:09:15 [szilles]
BB: Last weeks discussion did not reach a conclusion on anything
17:10:20 [szilles]
BB: Elika proposes and I agree that the rule for "overflow" should be clip the overflowing parts
17:10:57 [szilles]
SMFR: I can see use cases for scrollbars or the above solution; We could go either way
17:12:25 [szilles]
EE: The author can put scroll bars on the replace element it self; e.g. a document inside an iframe. Thus there is no particular need for scroll bars on the box into which the replace element goes
17:13:09 [szilles]
SMFR: I agree with Elika's analysis; clipping makes most sense
17:13:35 [szilles]
DB: no opinion, still trying to understand it, but willing to live with the clipping proposal
17:14:05 [szilles]
Decision: Clipping is the behavior for overflow
17:14:26 [szilles]
1a. Missing "none"
17:15:28 [szilles]
EE: the answer despends on what the model is for negotiation between the box and the replaced element. I suggested one in a reply
17:16:52 [fantasai]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Feb/0164.html
17:19:28 [szilles]
EE: The "none' value is asserted as necessary for SVG. I am not sure that this is so.
17:20:41 [szilles]
EE: If CSS decides on the view box size and SVG decides how to fill it then there is no need for a 'none' value because SVG setting will be used anyway
17:21:07 [szilles]
ACTION (all) read Elika's answer above
17:21:07 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - (all)
17:21:43 [szilles]
1c * Fit to content or padding box?
17:21:57 [szilles]
Decision: content box
17:22:10 [szilles]
1d * Don't inherit
17:23:15 [szilles]
DG: It is suggested to not inherit image-postition and image-fit
17:24:02 [szilles]
EE: the use case for inheritance is "nested elements" but it seems to be more important to honor SVG's preserve aspect ratio
17:24:21 [fantasai]
yes
17:24:28 [szilles]
SMFR: I am fine with no inheritance
17:24:31 [fantasai]
s/nested/nested object/
17:24:33 [szilles]
BB: me too
17:25:25 [szilles]
Decision: Do what is best for SVG
17:25:52 [szilles]
ACTION (Elika): Find out what is best for SVG
17:25:52 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - (Elika)
17:26:38 [szilles]
N. B. if what is best for SVG involves no inheritance, then there will be no inheritance
17:27:18 [szilles]
1d Which module does image-fit go into
17:28:10 [szilles]
EE: could move this property out of the page module into the images module which is being actively edited
17:28:30 [szilles]
BB: Paged Media should be back into CR as soon as possible
17:28:38 [glazou]
Zakim, who is here?
17:28:38 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [Mozilla], smfr, glazou, dethbakin, [Microsoft], Bert, SteveZ, fantasai, plinss
17:28:40 [Zakim]
[Mozilla] has dbaron
17:28:41 [Zakim]
On IRC I see sylvaing, dethbakin, dbaron, oyvind, RRSAgent, Zakim, glazou, smfr, szilles, Lachy, anne, jdaggett_afk, arronei, karl, krijnh, plinss_, plinss, Bert, Hixie, fantasai,
17:28:43 [Zakim]
... trackbot
17:29:13 [szilles]
EE: The catch is that there are a bunch of open issues that will delay getting paged media done
17:30:04 [szilles]
PL: HP is implementing it now and will likely want to push this through, perhaps via me
17:31:09 [szilles]
SZ: Who will make the changes?
17:32:16 [szilles]
EE: The problem with making the changes in Paged Media, is that due to references to the CR version from other orgs we cannot move the draft back to WD
17:33:04 [szilles]
The result of this is that the "editor's draft" that is public cannot be reissued so there is a large discrepency between it and the CR draft.
17:34:26 [szilles]
SZ: it is disconcerting that someone is normatively referencing an out of date document whatever its status
17:35:34 [szilles]
EE: There was some print stuff going on at MIPC and some other org; HP could perhaps provide more detail
17:36:02 [sylvaing]
Zakim, [Microsoft] has sylvaing
17:36:02 [Zakim]
+sylvaing; got it
17:36:25 [szilles]
SZ: can we action HP to tell us what they think the constraints are on the paged media module
17:36:55 [szilles]
ACTION (PL): Get information from HP
17:36:55 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - (PL)
17:37:10 [szilles]
1e A new 'auto' behavior
17:37:24 [szilles]
BB: I do not like it; I think we can do without it
17:37:40 [szilles]
PL: how do we get the default behaviors without it
17:38:16 [szilles]
EE: We can say that we assign the box and the content "filler" does what ever it thinks is right
17:38:52 [szilles]
EE: using the model above, the content filler is given the size of the area to fill and it makes the decision on how to fill it
17:40:07 [szilles]
SG: Would 'auto' be the default behavior then?
17:40:14 [szilles]
Answer: yes
17:41:00 [szilles]
DB: Because "object" is so hard to implement, perhpas we should not force that on every other kind of element
17:41:31 [szilles]
SG and DB: auto should not be the default just because it is good for "object"
17:42:24 [szilles]
DG: do you agree that a new "auto" value is needed?
17:42:25 [dbaron]
I think <object> behavior might be a bunch of quirks... and object isn't used very much for any of this.
17:42:38 [dbaron]
I think the right behavior for <object> might be to switch implementations to doing 'fill'.
17:42:38 [szilles]
SG and DB: no, we do not agree there is a need
17:42:58 [szilles]
Decision: the proposal for a new "auto" value is not accepted
17:43:25 [szilles]
2. Applying transitions to properties like visibility
17:43:30 [glazou]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Nov/0328.html
17:43:56 [szilles]
DB: I think that this is more likely a F2F topic
17:44:02 [szilles]
agreed
17:44:19 [szilles]
3. animation Fill Modes
17:44:21 [glazou]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jan/0443.html
17:44:26 [Zakim]
-fantasai
17:44:57 [szilles]
SMFR: this would be in addition to animation spec to add a property 'animation-fill-mode'
17:46:03 [szilles]
SMFR: property allows author to spec whether the effect of the animation extends from now to end of delay period and how it ends
17:46:22 [szilles]
DB: How does this interact with the animation-iteration-count?
17:46:38 [szilles]
SMFR: this would apply only after the last interation
17:46:54 [szilles]
DB: With and iteration count of 3 and a fill-mode of "both"
17:48:03 [szilles]
SMFR: With a count of 3 and goes forward-backward-forward it applies to the last frame, but if the count were 2 which frame does it apply to
17:48:53 [szilles]
DB: I like it provided that with even iteration counts are explained
17:49:10 [dbaron]
I think even iteration counts should probably mean that the from keyframe applies at both ends
17:49:27 [dbaron]
er, even iteration counts *and* direction:alternate
17:49:43 [szilles]
SMFR: should the animation spec say anythnig about rendering when the animation event fires?
17:50:07 [glazou]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Jan/0445.html
17:50:13 [szilles]
ACTION (SMFR); Come back with a more detailed proposal
17:50:13 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - (SMFR);
17:50:30 [szilles]
4. Animation Timing Function property
17:50:57 [smfr]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2010Feb/0212.html
17:51:40 [smfr]
ACTION (smfr); Write a more detailed proposal for animation-fill-mode
17:51:40 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - (smfr);
17:51:47 [smfr]
ACTION smfr; Write a more detailed proposal for animation-fill-mode
17:51:47 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - smfr;
17:51:50 [smfr]
grr
17:52:21 [shepazu]
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17:52:22 [szilles]
SMFR: This overlaps with the 'visibility' discussion
17:52:34 [szilles]
Decision: this becomes a topic for the F2F meeting
17:53:06 [glazou]
Percentage heights
17:53:07 [glazou]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Nov/0286.html
17:53:31 [smfr]
glazou: you're breaking up
17:53:36 [glazou]
let me rejoin
17:53:39 [szilles]
5. Percentage height calculations
17:53:48 [Zakim]
-glazou
17:54:05 [szilles]
DB: I would need some time to recall this suggestion
17:54:11 [glazou]
sorry lost phone
17:54:23 [Zakim]
+glazou
17:55:44 [szilles]
DG: Please gather ideas for the F2F agenda
17:56:18 [szilles]
BB: Richard Ishida has volunteered to help edit the Ruby Module and we should invite him to explain what he is doing
17:56:28 [szilles]
DG: I will arrange an invitation
17:56:40 [dbaron]
http://www.w3.org/International/wiki/BidiProposal
17:57:23 [szilles]
DB: There is a bidi proposal that the I18N WG will be discussing. This is aimed at HTML, but is likely to affect CSS as well
17:57:51 [szilles]
SZ: Should we ask Richard to update us on the bidi propoasl while at our meeting
17:57:56 [szilles]
DB: that would be good.
17:58:02 [Zakim]
-[Mozilla]
17:58:04 [Zakim]
-smfr
17:58:06 [Zakim]
-Bert
17:58:07 [Zakim]
-dethbakin
17:58:07 [Zakim]
-glazou
17:58:09 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
17:58:09 [Zakim]
-plinss
17:58:13 [smfr]
smfr has left #css
17:58:16 [szilles]
Adjuourn at 9:58 AM PST
17:58:34 [szilles]
Zakim, make minutes
17:58:34 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'make minutes', szilles
17:58:44 [glazou]
Zakim, make minutes public
17:58:45 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'make minutes public', glazou
17:59:10 [glazou]
RRSAgent, make minutes
17:59:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/24-CSS-minutes.html glazou
17:59:20 [glazou]
szilles: that's rrsagent
17:59:22 [glazou]
yep
17:59:27 [glazou]
bye people
17:59:35 [szilles]
bye
18:02:07 [Zakim]
-SteveZ
18:02:08 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
18:02:10 [Zakim]
Attendees were glazou, smfr, dbaron, dethbakin, Bert, SteveZ, +200000aaaa, fantasai, plinss, sylvaing
18:31:18 [dethbakin]
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19:37:23 [TabAtkins]
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20:06:35 [TabAtkins]
Good meeting?
20:07:01 [TabAtkins]
Also: Happy late birthday, fantasai!
21:52:42 [fantasai]
Thanks Tab!
21:53:09 [fantasai]
oh, btw, in response to your comment about grammars for css3-images
21:53:15 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Yes, you should provide a grammar
21:53:28 [TabAtkins]
Kk, will do.
21:53:29 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: a grammar will make sure that you didn't leave out any important details
21:53:37 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: we had this problem with Selectors
21:54:11 [TabAtkins]
Do we have a reference for how to define the grammar? It's just an ABNF, but I'd like to match our style conventions in laying it out.
21:55:41 [TabAtkins]
(On the topic of gradients, I'm replacing tons of images on my company's site as part of my cleanup before I leave, and I love them.)
22:17:14 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: I'd suggest matching http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/grammar.html
22:17:24 [fantasai]
TabAtkins: Bert might have some other pointers
22:17:30 [TabAtkins]
kk
22:18:23 [TabAtkins]
I'll have a proposed grammar on the list tomorrow.
22:18:30 [TabAtkins]
Or Friday, maybe.
22:18:36 [fantasai]
kk
22:20:12 [fantasai]
plinss: Any idea when you can help with the lxml installation on test.csswg.org?
23:25:27 [arronei]
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23:27:08 [TabAtkins]
shepazu: You around, Shep? Have a question about SVG color interpolation for gradients.
23:28:53 [shepazu]
TabAtkins: yes, but busy right now... 15 minutes?
23:29:01 [TabAtkins]
Sure.
23:54:58 [shepazu]
TabAtkins: what's up?
23:55:14 [TabAtkins]
Just wanting to know where the precise algorithm for interpolation is defined. I can't find it.
23:55:32 [shepazu]
happy birthday, fantasai!
23:58:27 [shepazu]
TabAtkins: huh... I can't find it either
23:59:03 [shepazu]
TabAtkins: I wonder if this is one of those things that is defined elsewhere, which SVG simply uses the standard definition for
23:59:10 [shepazu]
I suspect so
23:59:16 [shepazu]
but I don't see a reference
23:59:19 [TabAtkins]
Doesn't do me much good to defer to SVG for the definition if SVG doesn't define it either. ^_^
23:59:32 [shepazu]
I think we should explicitly define it
23:59:38 [TabAtkins]
Indeed.
23:59:53 [shepazu]
let me ask Chris about it
23:59:56 [TabAtkins]
kk