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00:34:27 <wbailer> zakim, this will be mawg
00:34:27 <Zakim> ok, wbailer; I see IA_MAWG(F2F)7:00PM scheduled to start 34 minutes ago
00:35:18 <Zakim> IA_MAWG(F2F)7:00PM has now started
00:35:25 <Zakim> +wbailer
00:35:31 <Zakim> -wbailer
00:35:32 <Zakim> IA_MAWG(F2F)7:00PM has ended
00:35:32 <Zakim> Attendees were wbailer
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00:54:10 <chris> zakim, this will be mawg
00:54:10 <Zakim> ok, chris; I see IA_MAWG(F2F)7:00PM scheduled to start 54 minutes ago
00:54:24 <chris> meeting: MAWG
00:58:02 <daniel> talking about reviewers on our documents: asked to webapps wg and looking for someone.
00:59:52 <daniel> werner, good morning, are you supposed to participate in teleconf now ?
01:02:45 <daniel> we will have a document review (ontology) for two hours from now. will you join ?
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01:04:27 <Zakim> IA_MAWG(F2F)7:00PM has now started
01:04:34 <Zakim> +wbailer
01:04:51 <mediaann> up and running
01:05:22 <Zakim> + +82.10.58.00.aaaa
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01:07:46 <daniel> we start meeting
01:09:32 <daniel> starting meeting and self-introduction
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01:10:07 <daniel> starting meeting and self-introduction
01:10:53 <daniel> Daniel, Hui, Mingyo, Chris, Thierry, Joakim, Wonsuk, and Werner (online)
01:19:21 <daniel> Werner, it's your turn, please introduce yourself
01:23:50 <chris> scribe: Chris
01:24:55 <chris> Meeting: MAWG F2F Korea
01:26:20 <chris> action Wonsuk: to request review from MXM during last working draft call
01:26:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-214 - Request review from MXM during last working draft call [on WonSuk Lee - due 2010-03-02].
01:27:47 <chris> topic: Review and update of Ontology for Media Resource 1.0
01:28:33 <daniel> Agenda bashing: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/Meeting_Agenda_Seoulf2f
01:28:51 <daniel> Starting ontology document review and update
01:31:09 <chris> wonsuk: Veronique sent an email on the update of the ontology doc
01:31:40 <chris> wonsuk: had problems to validate
01:37:22 <jsderber> http://winmerge.org/
01:48:27 <chris> http://validator.w3.org/
01:49:56 <chris> we are currently looking into validating the document of Veronique 
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02:11:29 <cpoppe> scribe: cpoppe
02:12:35 <cpoppe> we fixed the file from Veronique
02:14:19 <cpoppe> werner: we should give a clear picture of what the document will look like
02:14:56 <cpoppe> werner: important is the type issue
02:15:08 <cpoppe> joakim: I am not sure we will get type definitions from all the formats
02:15:32 <cpoppe> werner: I agree, maybe we should use the ones we have
02:16:59 <cpoppe> werner: we should define the types for the core properties based on these
02:17:41 <cpoppe> wonsuk: we could make a draft based on the current mapping table
02:20:43 <cpoppe> what format should we use for the datatype properties
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02:21:31 <cpoppe> werner: the datatypes of the properties should be added in section 3
02:22:24 <cpoppe> joakim: first issue; work on datatypes
02:22:43 <cpoppe> joakim: should we work on candidate additional elements
02:23:01 <cpoppe> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/Candidate_Additional_Elements
02:23:03 <cpoppe> werner: maybe we should wait with this for now
02:23:42 <jsderber> Descriptive metadata elements 
02:23:52 <jsderber> Accessibility metadata 
02:24:08 <jsderber> Discovery of tracks 
02:25:01 <jsderber> Resolved Issues 
02:27:08 <jsderber> Accessibility metadata 
02:27:29 <jsderber> comment from PFWG [2]: request elements for referencing alternate version
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02:31:58 <cpoppe> joakim: ok first thing; work on the datatypes
02:33:36 <cpoppe> werner: would be good to add the properties in the document to get feedback
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02:33:54 <cpoppe> werner: maybe a seperate section
02:34:16 <cpoppe> thierry: we should look at our use cases and requirements doc
02:34:29 <cpoppe> thierry: if the properties are not needed why should we add them?
02:38:22 <cpoppe> thierry: it's better to add stuff now and remove it afterwards if there is no interes
02:38:55 <cpoppe> werner: the properties requires redefining ma:tracks
02:40:07 <cpoppe> werner: this introduces an API issue to access the tracks
02:41:35 <wbailer> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_MultitrackAPI
02:42:09 <cpoppe> werner: we could change the definition of ma:fragments for track fragments
02:45:59 <Zakim> -wbailer
03:29:19 <Zakim> - +82.10.58.00.aaaa
03:29:20 <Zakim> IA_MAWG(F2F)7:00PM has ended
03:29:21 <Zakim> Attendees were wbailer, +82.10.58.00.aaaa
03:32:14 <tmichel> projecting the last version of the Ontology document
03:32:43 <tmichel> topic: datatypes
03:33:15 <tmichel> wonsuk will report tomorrow on the last chances of the mapping table
03:33:39 <tmichel> datatype of core properties ...
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03:36:16 <jsderber> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-annotation/2010Feb/0047.html
03:37:03 <tmichel> looking at a email from Werner about the Ontology in the archives
03:38:10 <tmichel> Let's check if these comments are updated into the spec
03:39:30 <tmichel> in abstract replace "common" with "core"
03:40:32 <tmichel> - abstract: "interoperability among various kinds of metadata formats" suggests that we would also support converting between formats A and B
03:40:43 <tmichel> not resolved TDB.
03:41:31 <tmichel> - intro: "describe mapping between media resources" is not what we are doing
03:43:15 <tmichel> we are not mappting between media resources but between properties (metadata)
03:43:34 <tmichel> - intro, 3rd bullet about DC: "we might want to apply other restrictions" - do we want to be more specific here and say that we want to define stricter semantics, e.g. ma:format (MIME type of the resource) vs. dc:format (The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource.)
03:44:56 <tmichel> add example suggested by Werner
03:45:14 <tmichel> resolution: add example suggested by Werner
03:45:27 <tmichel> - intro, last paragraph: we still say that the set of elements is "likely to be extended", I think we should consider now whether we want to add any of the elements discussed in [2] and drop this paragraph before going to LC
03:46:33 <tmichel> we will drop it. and add other candidate properties. Will add media tracks.
03:47:17 <tmichel> to ask for feedback
03:48:23 <tmichel> "likely to be extended" will be removed 
03:49:52 <tmichel> wiil add the Discovery traks in the candidate list of prerties
03:50:38 <tmichel> - 1.3: we should give some explanation why MPEG-21 is not in scope (e.g. not media description in narrower sense)
03:54:36 <tmichel> not really about describing ressources ... not media description but description of the media chain
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04:03:38 <tmichel> MPEG 21 deals with how the media will be consumed. Not media description.
04:03:49 <tmichel> - def. media resource: add links to FRBR, BBC ontology
04:03:54 <tmichel> OK will add
04:04:06 <tmichel> - def. property: the text talks about string or URI as value, but I think we should explicitly say that values of properties can be structured and/or unstructured 
04:07:38 <tmichel> Make it clear that the property can be structured and/or unstructured 
04:09:16 <tmichel> remove in the example th "simple string or as the URI ..."
04:13:50 <tmichel> - references: B has heading "References (Non-Normative)", so I assume A should be "References (Normative)"; however, I'm not sure if all the references are really normative, e.g. HTML5 (not referenced), MPEG-21 (out of scope)
04:14:40 <tmichel> should have a subsection for normative vs non normative references. For example MPEG21 is informative as for HTML5 when EXIF is normative
04:14:54 <tmichel> - references: the FRBR reference is incomplete 
04:14:58 <tmichel> - references: the MPEG-21 reference is also incomplete - but nonetheless has a typo ;-)
04:15:00 <tmichel> To be fixed
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04:23:19 <tmichel> Statement about the "Members of the Group present at the F2F meeting in Barcelone" should be changed 
04:23:49 <tmichel> the resolution is a WG resolution if not objected.
06:03:39 <tmichel> topic: atatypes
06:03:50 <tmichel> topic: datatypes
06:04:00 <tmichel> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/drafts/ontology10/WD/summary.html
06:06:14 <tmichel> we can also look at the types from the API document
06:07:39 <tmichel> for example identifier is a "DOMsrting" as a return type
06:07:54 <tmichel> could use it for the type
06:08:29 <tmichel> ma:identifier type is a URI
06:08:41 <tmichel> ma:title string
06:09:02 <tmichel> ma:title is a string
06:09:55 <tmichel> ma:language is a string (BCP47)
06:12:12 <tmichel> ACTION: BCP47 obsoletes RFC4646 ...should be change in the mapping table and Ontology document
06:12:12 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - BCP47
06:12:52 <tmichel>  ACTION: wonsuk BCP47 obsoletes RFC4646 ...should be change in the mapping table and Ontology document
06:13:11 <tmichel> ma:locator is URI
06:14:52 <tmichel> ma:contributor is a pair (identifier and role)
06:37:14 <tmichel> it is a complex object. We are not looking for a return type here.
06:37:39 <tmichel> the API does specify the return type
06:49:30 <tmichel>  could describe with something like {String or URI, String}
06:50:58 <tmichel> or  smeting {Identifier:String or URI, subproperty:String}
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06:51:24 <tmichel> let's look at JSON ...
06:59:23 <chris> http://json-schema.org/
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07:09:13 <wonsuk> datatype of contributor --> { Identifier:URI, role:String }
07:14:08 <wonsuk> datatype of contributor  --> { Identifier:URI }
07:15:35 <wonsuk> datatype of contributor  --> URI
07:15:47 <tmichel>  ma:creator is a URI
07:15:50 <wonsuk> datatype of creator --> URI
07:16:16 <tmichel> ma:createDate is a date
07:17:21 <tmichel> ma:location is currently undefined in the API ... like a city a GPS an address ...
07:19:47 <tmichel> could be a string 
07:23:02 <daniel> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc5139.txt for geolocation reference
07:30:13 <tmichel> [Name:String], [longitude:Float,latitude:Float, alitude:Float]
07:33:37 <tmichel> [Name:String], [longitude:Float,latitude:Float, alitude:Float], [Address:String]
07:38:13 <tmichel> let's keep it simple. If one needs the address the link will enable quering the original format. For example if the is "more general"
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07:38:54 <tmichel> resolution for ma:location is [Name:String], [longitude:Float,latitude:Float, alitude:Float]
07:39:19 <tmichel> ma:location is a string
07:40:02 <tmichel> ma:keyword is a string or a set of strings
07:40:45 <tmichel> ... more a bag of strings...
07:42:39 <tmichel> description of ma:keyword a set of descriptive phrases
07:48:35 <tmichel> for the datatype field  ma:keyword is a string ?
07:49:20 <tmichel> resolution: description of ma:keyword "descriptive phrase or keyword"
07:53:37 <tmichel> ma:keyword is a string
07:54:17 <tmichel> ma:genre is a string
07:55:22 <tmichel> more complex than a String ma:rating  need to know the person or organization and the value of the rating
07:58:15 <tmichel> ACTION: Daniel to remind David Singer about pending actions
07:58:15 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Daniel
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08:05:37 <tmichel> [Identifier:URI, value:Float,max:Float,min:Float,context:String]
08:06:14 <tmichel> ma:relation 
08:07:24 <tmichel> [Identifier:URI, relation:String]
08:07:46 <tmichel> ma:collection is string
08:08:03 <tmichel> ma:collection is a complex object
08:09:08 <tmichel> [copyright:String, Identifier:URI] for ma: copyright
08:09:26 <tmichel> ma:licence
08:10:07 <tmichel> [licence:String, Identifier:URI]
08:10:21 <tmichel> ma:publisher
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08:11:28 <tmichel> is a URI
08:11:44 <tmichel> ma:targuet Audience
08:12:08 <tmichel> [Identifier:URI, classification:String]
08:12:24 <tmichel> ma:fragments
08:13:35 <tmichel> rrsagent, draft minutes
08:13:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/23-mediaann-minutes.html tmichel
08:16:53 <chris> hi Werner, we are looking at the ma:fragments property
08:17:01 <chris> any suggestions on how you would change the definition?
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08:19:28 <jsderber> Link to email: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-annotation/2010Feb/0051.html
08:19:38 <tmichel> will review ma:fragments later. 
08:20:09 <wbailer> A list of pairs of fragment role and fragment identifier. Fragment types can be spatial, temporal or tracks (e.g. chapters, favourite scenes, subtitles).
08:21:14 <tmichel> ma:frameSize
08:21:55 <tmichel> [Width:Float, Height:Float]
08:22:10 <tmichel> ma:compression
08:22:21 <tmichel> is a string
08:23:10 <tmichel> ma:duration is a float
08:23:15 <wbailer> should we consider when a string is from a contorlled set of terms (e.g. for ma:compression)?
08:23:27 <wbailer> s/contorlled/controlled/
08:23:38 <tmichel> ma: format is a string
08:24:07 <tmichel> ma:samplingrate is a float
08:24:20 <tmichel> ma:framerate is a float
08:24:33 <tmichel> ma:biterate is a float
08:24:58 <tmichel> ma:numTracks is an integer
08:26:47 <chris> werner you mean that we enforce this string should be from the controlled set of terms?
08:27:25 <wbailer> not sure if "enforce", but typically the value will be one from a set
08:28:10 <wbailer> i think we discussed that earlier, that we want to support controlled terms for several properties, but in addition leave the option for free text
08:28:56 <chris> yes free text is allways available through the unstructured return value in the API
08:29:06 <chris> what do you mean with "support" controlled termes
08:29:08 <chris> terms
08:29:50 <wbailer> stating for which properties there will be such a set of terms, and reference an appropriate one (e.g. MIME Types, EBU or MPEG classification schemes) 
08:30:34 <chris> yes in the description of the property an existing set of terms is recommended
08:31:40 <wbailer> ok
08:32:14 <chris> but that's how it already is now, you suggest we make this a restriction?
08:32:38 <chris> meaning that we need to specify the mapping to this controlled set?
08:34:03 <wbailer> i'm not sure if it like that now - eg in the property definitions of the summary table we make no mention of controlled terms
08:34:38 <wbailer> as we leave the option for free text, i do not think we need to define mappings of the terms
08:35:24 <chris> for compression we refer to RFC 4281, for format we refer to MIME type
08:36:11 <wbailer> it says "possible use" for the compression, i think we could be a bit more strict
08:36:26 <wbailer> ... in the sense: one can use free text or a controlled term
08:36:46 <wbailer> ... if it's a controlled term, it's from a specifed set
08:37:53 <wbailer> s/specifed/specified/
08:44:30 <tmichel> ACTION: MAWG members please review the datatype and raise issues by tomorrow morning if needed.
08:44:30 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - MAWG
08:46:21 <tmichel>  rrsagent, draft minutes
08:46:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/23-mediaann-minutes.html tmichel
08:46:24 <wbailer> are the data types only in the minutes or will there be an updated ontology doc draft?
08:47:37 <tmichel>  the data types  in the minutes will be updated in the ontology doc draft by wonsuk
08:47:56 <chris> currently they are in the minutes
08:48:01 <tmichel> api review planned for tomorrow
08:48:15 <chris> Wonsuk will update these tonight in the ontology document
08:51:29 <chris> werner on the controlled vocabularies, so we should define this for language, compression, and format
08:52:17 <wbailer> yes, not sure if there are others, but i'll go through the list anyway when reading through the minutes
08:52:32 <chris> for now this is part of the description as a recommended best practice but we should make this a MUST then
08:53:03 <chris> and unstructured values can always be returned if this information can not be mapped to the controlled vocabulary
08:53:22 <wbailer> genre is another one where it could make sense
08:56:21 <daniel> folks, I've sent an announcement to the mailing list regarding our plan for tomorrow teleconf. Please read it and join tomorrow 9 AM in EU Timezone
08:56:47 <daniel> meeting adjourn
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09:28:46 <fsasaki> hi florian
09:29:09 <fsasaki> sure. Just to confirm: what do you mean by "take care about veros document"? Transform it into HTML?
09:29:47 <florian> just respond on your email ;)
09:29:55 <fsasaki> ok :)
09:30:15 <florian> as far as i understood, you wanted to transform veroniques document
09:30:38 <florian> and wonsuk will work on the new document tonight...so we have to sync these two docs
09:31:24 <fsasaki> is wonsuk working on an HTML version or on the XML version?
09:31:53 <florian> he is working on the xml version i guess...but not quiet sure
09:33:29 <fsasaki> and was there no coordination between Vero and wonsuk to kepp their editing in sync?
09:34:01 <florian> as far as i know, vero does not use the cvs
09:34:30 <florian> maybe they had a sync, but no official afaik
09:35:35 <fsasaki> well, the best thing is to ask them directly if a third person (me) should take their versions and sync them, or how they proceed. I can ask that question if you don't mind
09:35:50 <florian> no problem
09:36:00 <fsasaki> ok, I will send a mail to the list
09:36:09 <florian> i only want to bring up this discussion
09:36:34 <florian> because otherwise veros work would be perhaps lost
09:37:48 <florian> ok, everthing seems fine now :)
09:38:22 <florian> they are working on veros version at the moment
09:38:44 <fsasaki> I see. So I'll skip my mail