IRC log of mediaann on 2010-02-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:34:16 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
00:34:21 [Zakim]
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00:34:27 [wbailer]
zakim, this will be mawg
00:34:27 [Zakim]
ok, wbailer; I see IA_MAWG(F2F)7:00PM scheduled to start 34 minutes ago
00:35:18 [Zakim]
IA_MAWG(F2F)7:00PM has now started
00:35:25 [Zakim]
00:35:31 [Zakim]
00:35:32 [Zakim]
IA_MAWG(F2F)7:00PM has ended
00:35:32 [Zakim]
Attendees were wbailer
00:53:27 [daniel]
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00:53:27 [chris]
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00:54:10 [chris]
zakim, this will be mawg
00:54:10 [Zakim]
ok, chris; I see IA_MAWG(F2F)7:00PM scheduled to start 54 minutes ago
00:54:24 [chris]
meeting: MAWG
00:58:02 [daniel]
talking about reviewers on our documents: asked to webapps wg and looking for someone.
00:59:52 [daniel]
werner, good morning, are you supposed to participate in teleconf now ?
01:02:45 [daniel]
we will have a document review (ontology) for two hours from now. will you join ?
01:04:04 [mediaann]
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IA_MAWG(F2F)7:00PM has now started
01:04:34 [Zakim]
01:04:51 [mediaann]
up and running
01:05:22 [Zakim]
+ +
01:06:12 [jsderber]
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01:07:19 [wonsuk]
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01:07:46 [daniel]
we start meeting
01:09:32 [daniel]
starting meeting and self-introduction
01:09:45 [daniel]
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01:10:07 [daniel]
starting meeting and self-introduction
01:10:53 [daniel]
Daniel, Hui, Mingyo, Chris, Thierry, Joakim, Wonsuk, and Werner (online)
01:19:21 [daniel]
Werner, it's your turn, please introduce yourself
01:23:50 [chris]
scribe: Chris
01:24:55 [chris]
Meeting: MAWG F2F Korea
01:26:20 [chris]
action Wonsuk: to request review from MXM during last working draft call
01:26:20 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-214 - Request review from MXM during last working draft call [on WonSuk Lee - due 2010-03-02].
01:27:47 [chris]
topic: Review and update of Ontology for Media Resource 1.0
01:28:33 [daniel]
Agenda bashing:
01:28:51 [daniel]
Starting ontology document review and update
01:31:09 [chris]
wonsuk: Veronique sent an email on the update of the ontology doc
01:31:40 [chris]
wonsuk: had problems to validate
01:37:22 [jsderber]
01:48:27 [chris]
01:49:56 [chris]
we are currently looking into validating the document of Veronique
02:01:50 [tmichel]
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02:02:42 [wonsuk]
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02:05:03 [cpoppe]
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02:11:29 [cpoppe]
scribe: cpoppe
02:12:35 [cpoppe]
we fixed the file from Veronique
02:14:19 [cpoppe]
werner: we should give a clear picture of what the document will look like
02:14:56 [cpoppe]
werner: important is the type issue
02:15:08 [cpoppe]
joakim: I am not sure we will get type definitions from all the formats
02:15:32 [cpoppe]
werner: I agree, maybe we should use the ones we have
02:16:59 [cpoppe]
werner: we should define the types for the core properties based on these
02:17:41 [cpoppe]
wonsuk: we could make a draft based on the current mapping table
02:20:43 [cpoppe]
what format should we use for the datatype properties
02:21:06 [daniel]
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02:21:31 [cpoppe]
werner: the datatypes of the properties should be added in section 3
02:22:24 [cpoppe]
joakim: first issue; work on datatypes
02:22:43 [cpoppe]
joakim: should we work on candidate additional elements
02:23:01 [cpoppe]
02:23:03 [cpoppe]
werner: maybe we should wait with this for now
02:23:42 [jsderber]
Descriptive metadata elements
02:23:52 [jsderber]
Accessibility metadata
02:24:08 [jsderber]
Discovery of tracks
02:25:01 [jsderber]
Resolved Issues
02:27:08 [jsderber]
Accessibility metadata
02:27:29 [jsderber]
comment from PFWG [2]: request elements for referencing alternate version
02:31:32 [cpoppe]
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02:31:58 [cpoppe]
joakim: ok first thing; work on the datatypes
02:33:36 [cpoppe]
werner: would be good to add the properties in the document to get feedback
02:33:40 [daniel]
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02:33:54 [cpoppe]
werner: maybe a seperate section
02:34:16 [cpoppe]
thierry: we should look at our use cases and requirements doc
02:34:29 [cpoppe]
thierry: if the properties are not needed why should we add them?
02:38:22 [cpoppe]
thierry: it's better to add stuff now and remove it afterwards if there is no interes
02:38:55 [cpoppe]
werner: the properties requires redefining ma:tracks
02:40:07 [cpoppe]
werner: this introduces an API issue to access the tracks
02:41:35 [wbailer]
02:42:09 [cpoppe]
werner: we could change the definition of ma:fragments for track fragments
02:45:59 [Zakim]
03:29:19 [Zakim]
- +
03:29:20 [Zakim]
IA_MAWG(F2F)7:00PM has ended
03:29:21 [Zakim]
Attendees were wbailer, +
03:32:14 [tmichel]
projecting the last version of the Ontology document
03:32:43 [tmichel]
topic: datatypes
03:33:15 [tmichel]
wonsuk will report tomorrow on the last chances of the mapping table
03:33:39 [tmichel]
datatype of core properties ...
03:36:01 [jsderber]
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03:36:16 [jsderber]
03:37:03 [tmichel]
looking at a email from Werner about the Ontology in the archives
03:38:10 [tmichel]
Let's check if these comments are updated into the spec
03:39:30 [tmichel]
in abstract replace "common" with "core"
03:40:32 [tmichel]
- abstract: "interoperability among various kinds of metadata formats" suggests that we would also support converting between formats A and B
03:40:43 [tmichel]
not resolved TDB.
03:41:31 [tmichel]
- intro: "describe mapping between media resources" is not what we are doing
03:43:15 [tmichel]
we are not mappting between media resources but between properties (metadata)
03:43:34 [tmichel]
- intro, 3rd bullet about DC: "we might want to apply other restrictions" - do we want to be more specific here and say that we want to define stricter semantics, e.g. ma:format (MIME type of the resource) vs. dc:format (The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource.)
03:44:56 [tmichel]
add example suggested by Werner
03:45:14 [tmichel]
resolution: add example suggested by Werner
03:45:27 [tmichel]
- intro, last paragraph: we still say that the set of elements is "likely to be extended", I think we should consider now whether we want to add any of the elements discussed in [2] and drop this paragraph before going to LC
03:46:33 [tmichel]
we will drop it. and add other candidate properties. Will add media tracks.
03:47:17 [tmichel]
to ask for feedback
03:48:23 [tmichel]
"likely to be extended" will be removed
03:49:52 [tmichel]
wiil add the Discovery traks in the candidate list of prerties
03:50:38 [tmichel]
- 1.3: we should give some explanation why MPEG-21 is not in scope (e.g. not media description in narrower sense)
03:54:36 [tmichel]
not really about describing ressources ... not media description but description of the media chain
04:02:14 [Zakim]
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04:03:38 [tmichel]
MPEG 21 deals with how the media will be consumed. Not media description.
04:03:49 [tmichel]
- def. media resource: add links to FRBR, BBC ontology
04:03:54 [tmichel]
OK will add
04:04:06 [tmichel]
- def. property: the text talks about string or URI as value, but I think we should explicitly say that values of properties can be structured and/or unstructured
04:07:38 [tmichel]
Make it clear that the property can be structured and/or unstructured
04:09:16 [tmichel]
remove in the example th "simple string or as the URI ..."
04:13:50 [tmichel]
- references: B has heading "References (Non-Normative)", so I assume A should be "References (Normative)"; however, I'm not sure if all the references are really normative, e.g. HTML5 (not referenced), MPEG-21 (out of scope)
04:14:40 [tmichel]
should have a subsection for normative vs non normative references. For example MPEG21 is informative as for HTML5 when EXIF is normative
04:14:54 [tmichel]
- references: the FRBR reference is incomplete
04:14:58 [tmichel]
- references: the MPEG-21 reference is also incomplete - but nonetheless has a typo ;-)
04:15:00 [tmichel]
To be fixed
04:19:22 [chris]
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04:23:19 [tmichel]
Statement about the "Members of the Group present at the F2F meeting in Barcelone" should be changed
04:23:49 [tmichel]
the resolution is a WG resolution if not objected.
06:03:39 [tmichel]
topic: atatypes
06:03:50 [tmichel]
topic: datatypes
06:04:00 [tmichel]
06:06:14 [tmichel]
we can also look at the types from the API document
06:07:39 [tmichel]
for example identifier is a "DOMsrting" as a return type
06:07:54 [tmichel]
could use it for the type
06:08:29 [tmichel]
ma:identifier type is a URI
06:08:41 [tmichel]
ma:title string
06:09:02 [tmichel]
ma:title is a string
06:09:55 [tmichel]
ma:language is a string (BCP47)
06:12:12 [tmichel]
ACTION: BCP47 obsoletes RFC4646 ...should be change in the mapping table and Ontology document
06:12:12 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - BCP47
06:12:52 [tmichel]
ACTION: wonsuk BCP47 obsoletes RFC4646 ...should be change in the mapping table and Ontology document
06:13:11 [tmichel]
ma:locator is URI
06:14:52 [tmichel]
ma:contributor is a pair (identifier and role)
06:37:14 [tmichel]
it is a complex object. We are not looking for a return type here.
06:37:39 [tmichel]
the API does specify the return type
06:49:30 [tmichel]
could describe with something like {String or URI, String}
06:50:58 [tmichel]
or smeting {Identifier:String or URI, subproperty:String}
06:51:09 [daniel]
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06:51:24 [tmichel]
let's look at JSON ...
06:59:23 [chris]
07:01:28 [daniel]
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07:06:55 [florian]
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07:09:13 [wonsuk]
datatype of contributor --> { Identifier:URI, role:String }
07:14:08 [wonsuk]
datatype of contributor --> { Identifier:URI }
07:15:35 [wonsuk]
datatype of contributor --> URI
07:15:47 [tmichel]
ma:creator is a URI
07:15:50 [wonsuk]
datatype of creator --> URI
07:16:16 [tmichel]
ma:createDate is a date
07:17:21 [tmichel]
ma:location is currently undefined in the API ... like a city a GPS an address ...
07:19:47 [tmichel]
could be a string
07:23:02 [daniel] for geolocation reference
07:30:13 [tmichel]
[Name:String], [longitude:Float,latitude:Float, alitude:Float]
07:33:37 [tmichel]
[Name:String], [longitude:Float,latitude:Float, alitude:Float], [Address:String]
07:38:13 [tmichel]
let's keep it simple. If one needs the address the link will enable quering the original format. For example if the is "more general"
07:38:49 [florian]
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07:38:54 [tmichel]
resolution for ma:location is [Name:String], [longitude:Float,latitude:Float, alitude:Float]
07:39:19 [tmichel]
ma:location is a string
07:40:02 [tmichel]
ma:keyword is a string or a set of strings
07:40:45 [tmichel]
... more a bag of strings...
07:42:39 [tmichel]
description of ma:keyword a set of descriptive phrases
07:48:35 [tmichel]
for the datatype field ma:keyword is a string ?
07:49:20 [tmichel]
resolution: description of ma:keyword "descriptive phrase or keyword"
07:53:37 [tmichel]
ma:keyword is a string
07:54:17 [tmichel]
ma:genre is a string
07:55:22 [tmichel]
more complex than a String ma:rating need to know the person or organization and the value of the rating
07:58:15 [tmichel]
ACTION: Daniel to remind David Singer about pending actions
07:58:15 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Daniel
08:02:32 [wbailer]
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08:05:37 [tmichel]
[Identifier:URI, value:Float,max:Float,min:Float,context:String]
08:06:14 [tmichel]
08:07:24 [tmichel]
[Identifier:URI, relation:String]
08:07:46 [tmichel]
ma:collection is string
08:08:03 [tmichel]
ma:collection is a complex object
08:09:08 [tmichel]
[copyright:String, Identifier:URI] for ma: copyright
08:09:26 [tmichel]
08:10:07 [tmichel]
[licence:String, Identifier:URI]
08:10:21 [tmichel]
08:10:58 [tobias]
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08:11:28 [tmichel]
is a URI
08:11:44 [tmichel]
ma:targuet Audience
08:12:08 [tmichel]
[Identifier:URI, classification:String]
08:12:24 [tmichel]
08:13:35 [tmichel]
rrsagent, draft minutes
08:13:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate tmichel
08:16:53 [chris]
hi Werner, we are looking at the ma:fragments property
08:17:01 [chris]
any suggestions on how you would change the definition?
08:17:54 [daniel]
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08:19:19 [jsderber]
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08:19:28 [jsderber]
Link to email:
08:19:38 [tmichel]
will review ma:fragments later.
08:20:09 [wbailer]
A list of pairs of fragment role and fragment identifier. Fragment types can be spatial, temporal or tracks (e.g. chapters, favourite scenes, subtitles).
08:21:14 [tmichel]
08:21:55 [tmichel]
[Width:Float, Height:Float]
08:22:10 [tmichel]
08:22:21 [tmichel]
is a string
08:23:10 [tmichel]
ma:duration is a float
08:23:15 [wbailer]
should we consider when a string is from a contorlled set of terms (e.g. for ma:compression)?
08:23:27 [wbailer]
08:23:38 [tmichel]
ma: format is a string
08:24:07 [tmichel]
ma:samplingrate is a float
08:24:20 [tmichel]
ma:framerate is a float
08:24:33 [tmichel]
ma:biterate is a float
08:24:58 [tmichel]
ma:numTracks is an integer
08:26:47 [chris]
werner you mean that we enforce this string should be from the controlled set of terms?
08:27:25 [wbailer]
not sure if "enforce", but typically the value will be one from a set
08:28:10 [wbailer]
i think we discussed that earlier, that we want to support controlled terms for several properties, but in addition leave the option for free text
08:28:56 [chris]
yes free text is allways available through the unstructured return value in the API
08:29:06 [chris]
what do you mean with "support" controlled termes
08:29:08 [chris]
08:29:50 [wbailer]
stating for which properties there will be such a set of terms, and reference an appropriate one (e.g. MIME Types, EBU or MPEG classification schemes)
08:30:34 [chris]
yes in the description of the property an existing set of terms is recommended
08:31:40 [wbailer]
08:32:14 [chris]
but that's how it already is now, you suggest we make this a restriction?
08:32:38 [chris]
meaning that we need to specify the mapping to this controlled set?
08:34:03 [wbailer]
i'm not sure if it like that now - eg in the property definitions of the summary table we make no mention of controlled terms
08:34:38 [wbailer]
as we leave the option for free text, i do not think we need to define mappings of the terms
08:35:24 [chris]
for compression we refer to RFC 4281, for format we refer to MIME type
08:36:11 [wbailer]
it says "possible use" for the compression, i think we could be a bit more strict
08:36:26 [wbailer]
... in the sense: one can use free text or a controlled term
08:36:46 [wbailer]
... if it's a controlled term, it's from a specifed set
08:37:53 [wbailer]
08:44:30 [tmichel]
ACTION: MAWG members please review the datatype and raise issues by tomorrow morning if needed.
08:44:30 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - MAWG
08:46:21 [tmichel]
rrsagent, draft minutes
08:46:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate tmichel
08:46:24 [wbailer]
are the data types only in the minutes or will there be an updated ontology doc draft?
08:47:37 [tmichel]
the data types in the minutes will be updated in the ontology doc draft by wonsuk
08:47:56 [chris]
currently they are in the minutes
08:48:01 [tmichel]
api review planned for tomorrow
08:48:15 [chris]
Wonsuk will update these tonight in the ontology document
08:51:29 [chris]
werner on the controlled vocabularies, so we should define this for language, compression, and format
08:52:17 [wbailer]
yes, not sure if there are others, but i'll go through the list anyway when reading through the minutes
08:52:32 [chris]
for now this is part of the description as a recommended best practice but we should make this a MUST then
08:53:03 [chris]
and unstructured values can always be returned if this information can not be mapped to the controlled vocabulary
08:53:22 [wbailer]
genre is another one where it could make sense
08:56:21 [daniel]
folks, I've sent an announcement to the mailing list regarding our plan for tomorrow teleconf. Please read it and join tomorrow 9 AM in EU Timezone
08:56:47 [daniel]
meeting adjourn
08:58:21 [fsasaki]
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09:28:46 [fsasaki]
hi florian
09:29:09 [fsasaki]
sure. Just to confirm: what do you mean by "take care about veros document"? Transform it into HTML?
09:29:47 [florian]
just respond on your email ;)
09:29:55 [fsasaki]
ok :)
09:30:15 [florian]
as far as i understood, you wanted to transform veroniques document
09:30:38 [florian]
and wonsuk will work on the new document we have to sync these two docs
09:31:24 [fsasaki]
is wonsuk working on an HTML version or on the XML version?
09:31:53 [florian]
he is working on the xml version i guess...but not quiet sure
09:33:29 [fsasaki]
and was there no coordination between Vero and wonsuk to kepp their editing in sync?
09:34:01 [florian]
as far as i know, vero does not use the cvs
09:34:30 [florian]
maybe they had a sync, but no official afaik
09:35:35 [fsasaki]
well, the best thing is to ask them directly if a third person (me) should take their versions and sync them, or how they proceed. I can ask that question if you don't mind
09:35:50 [florian]
no problem
09:36:00 [fsasaki]
ok, I will send a mail to the list
09:36:09 [florian]
i only want to bring up this discussion
09:36:34 [florian]
because otherwise veros work would be perhaps lost
09:37:48 [florian]
ok, everthing seems fine now :)
09:38:22 [florian]
they are working on veros version at the moment
09:38:44 [fsasaki]
I see. So I'll skip my mail