IRC log of ua on 2010-02-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:44:35 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:44:35 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/02/18-ua-irc
17:44:37 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:44:37 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
17:44:39 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
17:44:39 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 16 minutes
17:44:40 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
17:44:40 [trackbot]
Date: 18 February 2010
17:44:59 [AllanJ]
chair: Kelly_Ford
17:45:15 [AllanJ]
regrets: Jeanne_S
17:47:22 [kford]
kford has joined #ua
17:47:41 [kford]
trackbot, start meeting
17:47:43 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:47:45 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
17:47:45 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 13 minutes
17:47:46 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
17:47:46 [trackbot]
Date: 18 February 2010
17:52:12 [kford]
Agenda+ F2F - 2/24-26
17:52:14 [kford]
Agenda+ Discuss action 242 to review WCAG for a mechanism is available - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JanMar/0065.html
17:52:15 [kford]
Agenda+ Discuss HTML 5 bugs on context menu - http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8682, http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8683, and http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8684
17:52:17 [kford]
Agenda+ Other proposals and actions sent to list
17:52:49 [kford]
Chair: Jim_Allan, Kelly_Ford
17:52:59 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:52:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/18-ua-minutes.html kford
17:55:40 [kford]
chair: Jim_Allan_Kelly_Ford
17:55:46 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:55:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/18-ua-minutes.html kford
17:56:35 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:56:42 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
17:57:04 [kford]
zakim, microsoft is kford
17:57:04 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
17:59:16 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
18:00:02 [Zakim]
+AllanJ
18:01:01 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.435.aaaa
18:01:26 [AllanJ]
zakim, aaaa is kim
18:01:26 [sharper]
zakim, code?
18:01:37 [Zakim]
+kim; got it
18:01:39 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), sharper
18:02:14 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
18:03:09 [Zakim]
+Greg
18:05:35 [kford]
Scribe: Jim
18:05:42 [Zakim]
+Markku_Hakkinen
18:06:02 [Zakim]
+??P18
18:06:06 [sharper]
zakim, ??P18 is sharper
18:06:06 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
18:07:23 [AllanJ]
scribe: allanj
18:10:54 [AllanJ]
zakim, agenda?
18:10:54 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
18:10:55 [Zakim]
1. F2F - 2/24-26 [from kford]
18:10:56 [Zakim]
2. Discuss action 242 to review WCAG for a mechanism is available - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JanMar/0065.html [from kford]
18:10:59 [Zakim]
3. Discuss HTML 5 bugs on context menu - http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8682, http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8683, and
18:11:01 [Zakim]
... http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8684 [from kford]
18:11:02 [Zakim]
4. Other proposals and actions sent to list [from kford]
18:11:34 [AllanJ]
zakim, open item 1
18:11:34 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "F2F - 2/24-26" taken up [from kford]
18:14:17 [AllanJ]
logistics, etc.
18:14:31 [AllanJ]
Zakim, close item 1
18:14:31 [Zakim]
agendum 1, F2F - 2/24-26, closed
18:14:33 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:14:34 [Zakim]
2. Discuss action 242 to review WCAG for a mechanism is available - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JanMar/0065.html [from kford]
18:15:00 [AllanJ]
zakim, open item 2
18:15:00 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Discuss action 242 to review WCAG for a mechanism is available - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JanMar/0065.html" taken up [from kford]
18:16:03 [AllanJ]
GL: what is a 'mechanism'
18:17:12 [AllanJ]
KF: WCAG says the author should do certain things. I was looking to see if the UA could provide functionality to make it easier for authors.
18:18:24 [kford]
3.7.2 Local Volume: The user can set the volume of all rendered audio tracks<
18:18:25 [kford]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2010/ED-UAAG20-20100125/#def-audio-track>
18:18:27 [kford]
(including a "mute" setting) through available operating environment<
18:18:29 [kford]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2010/ED-UAAG20-20100125/#def-operating-environment>
18:18:31 [kford]
mechanisms with settings specific to the user agent such that volume of the user agent is independent from the overall operating system. (Level AA)
18:19:08 [AllanJ]
note: 3.7.2 is proposed new SC
18:20:00 [AllanJ]
GL: ISO has independent volume adjust as a recommendation.
18:20:35 [AllanJ]
... at a level AA would be fine
18:20:46 [mhakkinen]
mhakkinen has joined #ua
18:21:19 [AllanJ]
KP: +1
18:21:22 [Greg]
FYI for comparison, ISO 9241-141 has *independent* adjustment of volume as a Note under the item requiring that volume of everything be adjustable. It reads:
18:21:24 [Greg]
10.6.2 Enable control of audio volume
18:21:25 [AllanJ]
JA: +1
18:21:25 [Greg]
Software shall enable users to control the volume of audio output.
18:21:27 [Greg]
NOTEIf software generates audio output, it is preferable that it provide its own control that adjusts the volume of its own audio output relative to other software and any system-wide volume setting.
18:23:40 [AllanJ]
KP: example: sometimes with speech you get audio prompts and the user want volume control of the feedback audio separate from the system audio.
18:25:17 [AllanJ]
SH: what if there is a plug in, what is the operating environment?
18:26:01 [AllanJ]
Discussion of definition of OPERATING ENVIRONMENT
18:26:56 [AllanJ]
...is there confusion. with a plugin, is the UA the environment for the plugin?
18:27:18 [AllanJ]
GL: could support that. may need some rewording.
18:28:05 [AllanJ]
SH: if the UA (operating environment) for the plugin, if it does not have the control, how does that effect the definition or operation.
18:28:46 [AllanJ]
GL: we don'w want the plug-in to get off the hook if the UA does not provide a mechanism.
18:29:11 [AllanJ]
...rewrite to remove "operating environment". not sure why it is there.
18:31:38 [AllanJ]
GL: the plugin is a user agent. example: quicktime plugin. the plugin must provide the volume.
18:32:16 [AllanJ]
... the UA generating the audio must provide the independent volume control.
18:32:52 [AllanJ]
SH: restates issue
18:32:59 [Greg]
Kelly's proposal <<3.7.2 Local Volume: The user can set the volume of all rendered audio tracks (including a "mute" setting) through available operating environment mechanisms with settings specific to the user agent such that volume of the user agent is independent from the overall operating system. (Level AA).>> I recommend taking out the bit about the operating environment. "3.7.2 Local...
18:33:01 [Greg]
...Volume: The user can set the volume of all rendered audio tracks (including a "mute" setting) independently from the overall operating system. (Level AA)."
18:34:44 [AllanJ]
GL: don't say how they should do it, just that they should do it.
18:37:39 [AllanJ]
Discussion of 3.7.1, current browser behavior.
18:38:46 [AllanJ]
SH: reword 3.7.1 to say "globally set volume of all audio tracks it renders"
18:39:47 [AllanJ]
3.7.1 Global Volume: The user can globally set volume of all audio tracks it renders (including a "mute" setting) through available operating environment mechanisms. (Level A)
18:39:56 [Greg]
How about something like: The user agent allows the user to adjust the volume of all audio tracks it renders, independent or relative to the volume level at the operating environment.
18:40:51 [AllanJ]
above is a reword to 3.7.2
18:41:18 [AllanJ]
KF: GL are you ok with global volume and independent volume control
18:41:39 [Zakim]
-kim
18:42:38 [AllanJ]
GL: user must control volume, through the OS or its own mechanism.
18:43:01 [Zakim]
+kim
18:44:32 [AllanJ]
GL: OS provides mechanism for audio, with APIs etc. but relys on individual applications to provide volume control.
18:44:49 [AllanJ]
s/relys/relies
18:45:27 [AllanJ]
... ISO say user must be able to adjust the volume. no how, just do it.
18:45:42 [AllanJ]
... recommendation to provide independent mechanism.
18:47:44 [AllanJ]
KF: need separation of global and independent.
18:47:59 [AllanJ]
KF: Poll for language of 3.7.1
18:48:05 [AllanJ]
All ok.
18:49:01 [AllanJ]
Action: Jeanne to update 3.7.1 Global Volume: The user can globally set volume of all audio tracks it renders (including a "mute" setting) through available operating environment mechanisms. (Level A)
18:49:01 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-287 - Update 3.7.1 Global Volume: The user can globally set volume of all audio tracks it renders (including a "mute" setting) through available operating environment mechanisms. (Level A) [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-02-25].
18:50:13 [AllanJ]
discussion of 3.7.1
18:50:36 [AllanJ]
Proposed 3.7.2 The user agent allows the user to adjust the volume of all audio tracks it renders, independent or relative to the volume level at the operating environment.
18:51:16 [AllanJ]
KP: agrees with this
18:51:56 [AllanJ]
KF: +1
18:52:04 [AllanJ]
MH: +1
18:52:19 [AllanJ]
SH: ok
18:53:11 [AllanJ]
Action: Jeanne to add 3.7.2 The user agent allows the user to adjust the volume of all audio tracks it renders, independent or relative to the volume level at the operating environment.
18:53:11 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-288 - Add 3.7.2 The user agent allows the user to adjust the volume of all audio tracks it renders, independent or relative to the volume level at the operating environment. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-02-25].
18:54:59 [AllanJ]
KF: WCAG 1.4.8 visual presentation (AAA). Colors covered 3.6.1
18:57:13 [AllanJ]
... don't have zoom/scaling
18:57:57 [Zakim]
-kford
18:58:02 [AllanJ]
Action: KF to write a success criteria for viewport scaling (text, images)
18:58:02 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-289 - Write a success criteria for viewport scaling (text, images) [on Kelly Ford - due 2010-02-25].
18:59:17 [AllanJ]
Zakim, close item 2
18:59:17 [Zakim]
agendum 2, Discuss action 242 to review WCAG for a mechanism is available - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JanMar/0065.html, closed
18:59:21 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:59:22 [Zakim]
3. Discuss HTML 5 bugs on context menu - http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8682, http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8683, and
18:59:25 [Zakim]
... http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8684 [from kford]
19:00:03 [AllanJ]
agenda+ 4.9 discussion http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JanMar/0070.html
19:00:33 [AllanJ]
zakim: open item 5
19:00:48 [AllanJ]
zakim, open item 9
19:00:48 [Zakim]
I only see 5 items on the agenda
19:00:54 [AllanJ]
zakim, open item 5
19:00:54 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "4.9 discussion http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JanMar/0070.html" taken up [from AllanJ]
19:04:28 [mhakkinen]
Action: MH to provide definition of semantic structure and navigation re 4.9.9
19:04:28 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-290 - Provide definition of semantic structure and navigation re 4.9.9 [on Markku Hakkinen - due 2010-02-25].
19:07:21 [mhakkinen]
4.9.10 Track Enable/Disable of Time-Based Media
19:07:21 [mhakkinen]
During time-based media playback, the user can determine which tracks are
19:07:21 [mhakkinen]
available and select or deselect tracks for rendering. These selections override
19:07:21 [mhakkinen]
global default settings for captions, audio descriptions, etc. (delete
19:07:21 [mhakkinen]
4.9.b)
19:10:06 [mhakkinen]
4.9.8 Navigate Multimedia: The user can navigate along the timebase using a continuous scale, and by relative time units within rendered audio and animations (including video and animated images) that last three or more seconds at their default playback rate. (Level A)
19:11:23 [mhakkinen]
4.9.9 Semantic Navigation of Time-Based Media. The user can navigate by semantic structure within the time-based media, such as by chapters or scenes, if present in the media (AA).
19:11:43 [AllanJ]
topic: 4.9.11 User has the ability to scale/size the playback viewport within the limits of the containing viewport.
19:12:08 [AllanJ]
set at level AA
19:13:43 [Zakim]
-kim
19:13:54 [AllanJ]
Topic: 4.9.12 User has ability to scale and position alternative media tracks independent of base video.
19:14:30 [AllanJ]
GL: plugin can't do that without host permission. seems pie in the sky.
19:14:40 [Zakim]
+kim
19:15:01 [AllanJ]
...if you allow moving stuff outside of viewport.
19:16:02 [AllanJ]
MH: html5 alternate track (divs), expectation is to position and scale these items
19:16:37 [AllanJ]
GL: at level AAA ok, still need implementation.
19:17:25 [AllanJ]
...how would this work with quicktime?
19:17:53 [AllanJ]
all ok with AAA
19:19:02 [AllanJ]
topic: 4.9.13 User has ability to control the contrast and brightness of the content within the playback viewport.
19:19:35 [AllanJ]
all plugins would pass, if opened as stand alone player.
19:20:17 [AllanJ]
GL: is it ok to spawn to separate application.
19:21:44 [AllanJ]
JA: I think so, gives example of PDF, quick
19:24:31 [AllanJ]
GL: do we need an SC to give user ability to open a plugin or open external player.
19:26:40 [Zakim]
-kim
19:28:47 [AllanJ]
action: jallan to write SC for user ability to open a plugin or open external player.
19:28:47 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-291 - Write SC for user ability to open a plugin or open external player. [on Jim Allan - due 2010-02-25].
19:29:14 [Greg]
The user should be able to use the user agent's user interface to control rendered video.
19:30:16 [AllanJ]
MH: sounds like an parent elemet.
19:30:45 [AllanJ]
Action: jallan to write new sc The user should be able to use the user agent's user interface to control rendered video
19:30:45 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-292 - Write new sc The user should be able to use the user agent's user interface to control rendered video [on Jim Allan - due 2010-02-25].
19:32:57 [AllanJ]
MH: expection in html5 is that the plugin or native rendering all methods, etc are exposed in the dom and becomes transparent to UA
19:35:36 [Zakim]
-sharper
19:35:37 [sharper]
sharper has left #ua
19:35:37 [Zakim]
-Markku_Hakkinen
19:35:39 [Zakim]
-AllanJ
19:35:46 [Zakim]
-Greg
19:35:48 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
19:35:50 [Zakim]
Attendees were kford, AllanJ, +1.617.435.aaaa, kim, Greg, Markku_Hakkinen, sharper
19:37:30 [AllanJ]
... html5 will have a list of supported codec, authors will choose codecs. if outside available codecs author will need to supply divverent player as plugin.
19:37:49 [AllanJ]
s/divverent/different
19:40:04 [AllanJ]
discussed 4.9.8-4.9.13 all agreed to let scribe write actions for inclusion in the draft.
19:41:25 [AllanJ]
action: Jeanne add 4.9.8 to draft
19:41:25 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-293 - Add 4.9.8 to draft [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-02-25].
19:41:26 [AllanJ]
4.9.8 Navigate Multimedia: The user can navigate along the
19:41:28 [AllanJ]
timebase using a continuous scale, and by relative time units within
19:41:29 [AllanJ]
rendered audio and animations (including video and animated images) that last three or more seconds at their default playback rate. (Level A)
19:42:37 [AllanJ]
action: jeanne add new 4.9.9 to draft
19:42:37 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-294 - Add new 4.9.9 to draft [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-02-25].
19:42:39 [AllanJ]
4.9.9 Semantic Navigation of Time-Based Media. The user can navigate by semantic structure within the time-based media, such as by chapters or scenes, if present in the media (AA).
19:44:27 [AllanJ]
action: Jeanne add 4.9.10 to draft
19:44:27 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-295 - Add 4.9.10 to draft [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-02-25].
19:44:29 [AllanJ]
4.9.10 Track Enable/Disable of Time-Based Media
19:44:30 [AllanJ]
During time-based media playback, the user can determine which tracks are available and select or deselect tracks. These selections may override global default settings for captions, audio descriptions, etc.
19:45:53 [AllanJ]
action: jeanne add 4.9.11 to draft
19:45:53 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-296 - Add 4.9.11 to draft [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-02-25].
19:45:54 [AllanJ]
4.9.11 User has the ability to scale/size the playback viewport within the limits of the containing viewport. Level AA
19:45:56 [AllanJ]
Implementation:
19:45:58 [AllanJ]
User needs video larger but still needs access to other application (take notes during playback), fullscreen does not allow that. Content should reflow as user adjusts playback viewport.
19:45:59 [AllanJ]
@@need SC for full screen
19:47:12 [AllanJ]
Action: Jeanne to add 4.9.12 to the draft
19:47:12 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-297 - Add 4.9.12 to the draft [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-02-25].
19:47:13 [AllanJ]
4.9.12 User has ability to scale and position alternative media tracks
19:47:15 [AllanJ]
independent of base video. Level AAA
19:47:16 [AllanJ]
Implementation:
19:47:18 [AllanJ]
Text scaling - default setting should apply, UA should allow separate
19:47:20 [AllanJ]
control of the caption tracks. User needs larger captions. Snap captions outside of video, change text size and caption viewport size/position. User need to reposition and make the sign language track larger.
19:48:54 [AllanJ]
action: jeanne to add 4.9.13 to draft
19:48:54 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-298 - Add 4.9.13 to draft [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-02-25].
19:48:56 [AllanJ]
4.9.13 User has ability to control the contrast and brightness of the
19:48:58 [AllanJ]
content within the playback viewport.
19:48:59 [AllanJ]
Implementation for all of 4.9
19:49:00 [AllanJ]
If the browser is playing the video natively, then there is only 1 user
19:49:02 [AllanJ]
agent. Then it falls on the browser to meet the UAAG spec.
19:49:04 [AllanJ]
If author uses windows media player inside the video element, the browser needs to map its native controls to the embedded wmp controls, and provide access to all the controls.
19:49:05 [AllanJ]
User needs to be able to define rendering parameters of playback at rendertime.
19:53:30 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:53:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/18-ua-minutes.html AllanJ
19:53:38 [AllanJ]
zakim, please part
19:53:38 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
19:53:57 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:53:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/18-ua-minutes.html AllanJ
19:57:40 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, please part
19:57:40 [RRSAgent]
I see 12 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/18-ua-actions.rdf :
19:57:40 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne to update 3.7.1 Global Volume: The user can globally set volume of all audio tracks it renders (including a "mute" setting) through available operating environment mechanisms. (Level A) [1]
19:57:40 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/18-ua-irc#T18-49-01
19:57:40 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne to add 3.7.2 The user agent allows the user to adjust the volume of all audio tracks it renders, independent or relative to the volume level at the operating environment. [2]
19:57:40 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/18-ua-irc#T18-53-11
19:57:40 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: KF to write a success criteria for viewport scaling (text, images) [3]
19:57:40 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/18-ua-irc#T18-58-02
19:57:40 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: MH to provide definition of semantic structure and navigation re 4.9.9 [4]
19:57:40 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/18-ua-irc#T19-04-28
19:57:40 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jallan to write SC for user ability to open a plugin or open external player. [5]
19:57:40 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/18-ua-irc#T19-28-47
19:57:40 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jallan to write new sc The user should be able to use the user agent's user interface to control rendered video [6]
19:57:40 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/18-ua-irc#T19-30-45
19:57:40 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne add 4.9.8 to draft [7]
19:57:40 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/18-ua-irc#T19-41-25
19:57:40 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne add new 4.9.9 to draft [8]
19:57:40 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/18-ua-irc#T19-42-37
19:57:40 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne add 4.9.10 to draft [9]
19:57:40 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/18-ua-irc#T19-44-27
19:57:40 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne add 4.9.11 to draft [10]
19:57:40 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/18-ua-irc#T19-45-53
19:57:40 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne to add 4.9.12 to the draft [11]
19:57:40 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/18-ua-irc#T19-47-12
19:57:40 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to add 4.9.13 to draft [12]
19:57:40 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/18-ua-irc#T19-48-54