10:02:06 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mediafrag
10:02:06 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-irc
10:02:08 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
10:02:08 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #mediafrag
10:02:10 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be IA_MFWG
10:02:10 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_MFWG()5:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
10:02:11 <trackbot> Meeting: Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference
10:02:11 <trackbot> Date: 17 February 2010
10:02:17 <Zakim> IA_MFWG()5:00AM has now started
10:02:26 <Zakim> + +49.300.aaaa
10:02:36 <raphael> zakim, aaaa is me
10:02:36 <Zakim> +raphael; got it
10:02:55 <raphael> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Feb/0037.html
10:03:05 <raphael> RRSAgent, draft minutes
10:03:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
10:03:12 <raphael> RRSAgent, make logs public
10:03:15 <jackjansen> jackjansen has joined #mediafrag
10:03:49 <Zakim> +Yves
10:03:57 <raphael> Chair: Erik, Raphael
10:04:14 <raphael> Present: Jack, Yves, Raphael, Silvia, Michael
10:04:19 <raphael> Regrets: Davy
10:04:24 <jackjansen> zakim, code?
10:04:24 <Zakim> the conference code is 3724 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jackjansen
10:05:42 <conrad> conrad has joined #mediafrag
10:05:51 <Zakim> +Jack_Jansen
10:06:20 <raphael> Present+ Conrad
10:06:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
10:08:42 <conrad> Zakim, code?
10:08:42 <Zakim> the conference code is 3724 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), conrad
10:08:58 <raphael> Silvia, are you planning to join?
10:09:33 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
10:09:46 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
10:09:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see raphael, Yves, Jack_Jansen, mhausenblas
10:09:47 <Zakim> On IRC I see conrad, jackjansen, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, raphael, silvia, Yves, trackbot
10:10:09 <mhausenblas> ACTION-140?
10:10:09 <trackbot> ACTION-140 -- Michael Hausenblas to create a more readable version of the TC classification at http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/TC/mftc -- due 2010-02-17 -- OPEN
10:10:09 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/140
10:10:12 <erik> erik has joined #mediafrag
10:10:18 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/TC/
10:10:24 <raphael> Present+ Erik
10:10:29 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2005/08/online_xslt/xslt?xslfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2008%2FWebVideo%2FFragments%2FTC%2Fmftc2html.xslt&xmlfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2008%2FWebVideo%2FFragments%2FTC%2Fmftc.rdf&content-type=&submit=transform
10:10:48 <Zakim> +??P7
10:10:55 <conrad> Zakim, ??P7 is me
10:10:55 <Zakim> +conrad; got it
10:11:46 <raphael> Topic: 1. ADmin
10:11:56 <raphael> Accept the minutes at http://www.w3.org/2010/02/10-mediafrag-minutes.html
10:11:57 <mhausenblas> +1
10:11:58 <raphael> +1
10:12:01 <jackjansen> +1
10:12:16 <raphael> Topic: 2. F2F Agenda
10:12:17 <raphael> F2F Meeting
10:12:23 <raphael> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/FithF2FAgenda
10:13:45 <conrad> raphael, the agenda is open for suggestions
10:13:56 <conrad> 3. SPECIFICATION:
10:13:56 <conrad> * ACTION-134: Erik to mark up the spec with normative and informative classes [postpone?]
10:13:56 <conrad> * ACTION-139: Silvia to mark up specified sections as implementable
10:14:06 <conrad> raphael: silvia is not here but she has done 138 and 138 (?)
10:14:14 <mhausenblas> s/raphael, the/raphael: the
10:14:21 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, draft minutes
10:14:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-minutes.html mhausenblas
10:14:29 <mhausenblas> rrsagent, make log public
10:14:39 <conrad> close action-138
10:14:40 <trackbot> ACTION-138 Include Erik's diagrams into specification closed
10:14:42 <conrad> close action-139
10:14:42 <trackbot> ACTION-139 Mark up specified sections as implementable closed
10:14:55 <raphael> Current document: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-spec/
10:15:07 <conrad> raphael: regarding section 5.1.3
10:15:24 <Yves> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-spec/#processing-name-value-lists
10:15:40 <conrad> raphael: silvia thinks we should also mark it as implementable
10:15:56 <conrad> raphael: the only thing refraining her from that atm is an objection from jack
10:16:14 <conrad> raphael: jack notes that we have not yet concluded if an unspecified dimension should be a zero or not
10:16:38 <conrad> raphael: we need to decide how strict/lax we need to be with interpretations of the spec
10:17:06 <Yves> what happens with http://www.example.com/foo.m4a#t=12-20&this_is_not_a_mediafrag will return a valid mediafrag using 5.1.3
10:17:16 <conrad> jack: i still think that being relaxed is fine, but if something is over-specified, such as specifying two time prefixes or two spatial prefixes, there would be too much scope for error
10:17:46 <conrad> jack: for every cascading rule you can find a use case, where one overrides or extends the other
10:17:55 <conrad> jack: i don't feel confident about stating that one rule can handle 90% of cases
10:19:14 <conrad> jack: if there is no clear rule, eg. saying t=100,200&t=20,40, then how should that be interpreted? there are 3 obvious possible interpretations, and each has people backing it
10:19:20 <Zakim> +silvia
10:19:26 <silvia> zakim, mute me
10:19:26 <Zakim> silvia should now be muted
10:20:03 <conrad> jack: i'm perfectly happy with name=value pairs we don't understand, that is up to implementations
10:20:22 <conrad> jack: if there is a name=value pair that we do understand, we should be stricter about that
10:20:24 <raphael> zakim, ack yves
10:20:24 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
10:20:59 <conrad> yves: this is test 3b (?) -- we should be clear about handling of things that are not recognized, partial media fragments etc.
10:21:14 <Yves> s/3b/3e/
10:21:17 <conrad> yves: a validator should provide errors
10:21:23 <conrad> jack: i agree
10:22:09 <conrad> raphael; for a good combination of things that we can recognize, jack is saying that we shouldn't try to understand what they are doing, but specify a rule
10:22:16 <Yves> things that can be recovered could be close strings, like xyhw -> xywh (obvious typo)
10:22:18 <conrad> jack: yes, according to our spec it should throw an error
10:22:41 <conrad> jack: just like we cannot accept xywh and t combined, id and t combined should give the same result as two t's combined
10:23:21 <conrad> Zakim, mut eme
10:23:21 <Zakim> I don't understand 'mut eme', conrad
10:24:07 <jackjansen> s/xywh and t combined, //
10:24:11 <silvia> zakim, unmute me
10:24:11 <Zakim> silvia should no longer be muted
10:26:10 <jackjansen> My pref would by: replace all "Any previously set value is discarded" with "it is an error if a value was previously set"
10:26:25 <conrad> silvia: we need to resolve how these ambiguous cases and combined parameters are handled
10:27:13 <conrad> silvia: i think what jack in particular objected to was philip's suggestion that any previous key=value settings are discarded on error
10:28:05 <erik> rssagent, draft minutes
10:28:18 <Yves> +1 to error instead of discarding
10:28:20 <raphael> RRSAgent, draft minutes
10:28:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
10:28:31 <conrad> jack: i would suggest that instead of discarding newly set disallowed values, an error should be thrown
10:29:14 <conrad> jack: from a (parser/UA) implementors point of view, simply discarding seems simpler, but a content author may expect cascading
10:29:40 <Yves> I can think of an intersection of t #t=10,20&t=6,12&intersect
10:29:44 <Yves> not a mediafrag => mediafrag recognition fails
10:29:50 <conrad> jack: i cannot see of a clear rule that prefers discarding or cascading, so we should just specify an error
10:29:51 <raphael> Jack: we cannot find a general way for cascading rules, so throw an error
10:29:57 <Yves> (defined in another spec, for example)
10:30:09 <conrad> silvia: i agree -- discarding would just encourage lazy programming
10:30:50 <conrad> yves: if there is no specification for an intersection, no problem, but in our case if we don't flag an error then we have to specify it as a valid media fragment
10:31:03 <conrad> yves: i agree that it should be an error
10:31:56 <conrad> conrad: what is an error
10:32:22 <conrad> raphael: it is not a media fragment
10:32:41 <conrad> silvia: it must be simply discarded and the fragment cannot be resolved as a media fragment
10:33:00 <conrad> silvia: [analogy to html page]
10:33:12 <jackjansen> We seem to have moved to 5.1.5
10:33:19 <conrad> raphael: but in the case of an HTML UA, everything is happening within the UA, not on the network
10:33:40 <conrad> silvia: i think it is the same for both html and media resources
10:33:51 <jackjansen> (and I think that that editorial that is attributed to Michael is actually mine:-)
10:34:00 <conrad> silvia: case 1) for html if the # cannot be resolved, the full resource is displayed
10:34:17 <raphael> yes Jack, but you defer it to Michael a long time ago :-)
10:34:22 <conrad> silvia: for media, if the # cannot be understood, the whole resource is shown from the beginning
10:34:30 <jackjansen> good:-)
10:34:55 <conrad> silvia: case 2) if the resource has previously been loaded: same behaviour, HTML goes to top of page, media should go to the beginning
10:35:05 <jackjansen> q+
10:35:24 <conrad> raphael: perhaps we should merge section 5.1.3, 5.1.5 on these topics
10:35:47 <conrad> jack: for error handling, i think we should make sure that put this in informative text not normative text
10:35:56 <conrad> jack: because the best case for handling an error is up to the application
10:36:39 <Yves> also authoring tools should report errors 
10:36:41 <conrad> jack: in the case of eg. pay-per-view content the UA may offer to interfere and confirm with the user
10:36:44 <conrad> silvia: i agree
10:36:47 <raphael> Raphael: there is the proposal of making 5.1.5 into a full section 6
10:37:51 <conrad> silvia: michael, did you get a chance to review the list of error cases presented last week
10:37:59 <mhausenblas> Michael: I agree
10:38:07 <jackjansen> silvia, url?
10:38:09 <mhausenblas> silence == agreement ;)
10:38:29 <conrad> silvia: 5.1.5: we need to look at errors in each of the dimensions (time, track, id)
10:38:46 <conrad> silvia: and then if we look at combined dimensions then we need more cases
10:38:53 <conrad> silvia: hence i'm suggesting to make it into a full section
10:38:54 <raphael> ACTION: Conrad to add a paragraph in the section 5.2.1 that further clarify the role of the UA for rendering a media fragment
10:38:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-141 - Add a paragraph in the section 5.2.1 that further clarify the role of the UA for rendering a media fragment [on Conrad Parker - due 2010-02-24].
10:39:21 <mhausenblas> q+ to note re appendix
10:39:25 <jackjansen> q-
10:39:29 <mhausenblas> hey!
10:39:59 <mhausenblas> ack me
10:39:59 <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to note re appendix
10:40:16 <conrad> michael: i would prefer to have the POV of an implementer that needs/wants to run the test cases
10:40:53 <conrad> michael: from implementer's pov it should be as easy as possible to do their [verification?] work
10:41:52 <raphael> scribenick: Raphael
10:41:55 <raphael> scribenick: raphael
10:42:35 <jackjansen> +1
10:43:01 <raphael> Suggestion: replace all "Any previously set value is discarded" with "it is an error if a value was previously set" in 5.1.3 and remove editorial note of Jack
10:43:12 <silvia> +1
10:43:14 <mhausenblas> s/Suggegstion/Proposal:
10:43:14 <raphael> +1
10:43:19 <Yves> +1
10:43:20 <mhausenblas> +1
10:43:21 <conrad> +1
10:43:40 <silvia> zakim, mute me
10:43:40 <Zakim> silvia should now be muted
10:43:40 <raphael> RESOLUTION: replace all "Any previously set value is discarded" with "it is an error if a value was previously set" in 5.1.3 and remove editorial note of Jack
10:43:49 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
10:43:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-minutes.html mhausenblas
10:44:14 <raphael> ACTION: Troncy to apply this change in the section 5.1.3 (jack's note)
10:44:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-142 - Apply this change in the section 5.1.3 (jack's note) [on Raphaël Troncy - due 2010-02-24].
10:44:46 <raphael> Raphael: Providing this change, can we mark this section as implementable?
10:45:04 <silvia> zakim, unmute me
10:45:04 <Zakim> silvia should no longer be muted
10:45:11 <Zakim> -conrad
10:45:26 <raphael> Jack: adding one more note about id?
10:45:55 <raphael> Silvia: I would just say that everything concerning the time dimension is implementable, the rest is still under discussion
10:46:54 <raphael> Jack: I would move 5.1.5 in an Appendix
10:47:07 <jackjansen> s/would/would not
10:47:15 <raphael> Silvia: I would move a section 6 and see later if we move it in an appendix depending the length of the document
10:47:32 <raphael> ACTION: Silvia to move 5.1.5 into a new section
10:47:32 <trackbot> Created ACTION-143 - Move 5.1.5 into a new section [on Silvia Pfeiffer - due 2010-02-24].
10:48:16 <raphael> Raphael: Section 5.1.1 is related to ISSUE-13
10:48:20 <raphael> ISSUE-13?
10:48:20 <trackbot> ISSUE-13 -- Write a IETF draft for proposing how to register the fragment scheme for all media types -- OPEN
10:48:20 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/issues/13
10:48:35 <raphael> Silvia: move this section to the top after the introduction
10:49:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
10:49:37 <raphael> ACTION: Silvia to move the section 5.1.1 to the top
10:49:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-144 - Move the section 5.1.1 to the top [on Silvia Pfeiffer - due 2010-02-24].
10:50:59 <raphael> Raphael: Section 5.1.4, general interpretation of media fragments, we have so far a HTML5 browser type of UA in mind
10:51:18 <raphael> ... What are the other UA we are talking about?
10:51:58 <raphael> Silvia: I'm not sure if we should say that all browsers should render the same way
10:52:11 <raphael> ACTION-141?
10:52:11 <trackbot> ACTION-141 -- Conrad Parker to add a paragraph in the section 5.2.1 that further clarify the role of the UA for rendering a media fragment -- due 2010-02-24 -- OPEN
10:52:11 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/141
10:52:28 <raphael> Silvia: perhaps start this discussion within the HTML5 fora
10:53:04 <conrad> a non-browser UA could be a video editor as a consumer of media fragments
10:53:32 <raphael> Jack: maybe we should turn the rendering into a new section as well
10:53:38 <raphael> Silvia: I like that too
10:54:17 <raphael> Jack: so we have sections about Syntax, Formal processing and then Guidelines and Errors
10:56:21 <raphael> Silvia: how far we should go in terms of saying something about rendering of a media fragment is still a matter of discussion
10:58:22 <raphael> Raphael: other UA ... video editor, qt player, youtube/dailymotion iPhone app, etc.
10:58:41 <raphael> Silvia: I will start this dicussion thread within the Accessibility task Force of the HTML5 WG
10:58:47 <jackjansen> but also think non-rendering apps (metadata annotation)
10:58:52 <raphael> ... there are developers there that will udnerstand what we are talking about
11:00:15 <raphael> Raphael: I'm uncomfortable with the fact that sections 3, 4.1 and 5.1.1 are marked as non-normative
11:00:21 <raphael> ... could we just comment that?
11:00:40 <raphael> Silvia: I tend to ignore that, I rather looked at implementable or not
11:01:25 <Zakim> -Jack_Jansen
11:02:13 <raphael> Topic: 4. Test Cases
11:02:16 <raphael> ACTON-140?
11:02:20 <raphael> ACTION-140?
11:02:20 <trackbot> ACTION-140 -- Michael Hausenblas to create a more readable version of the TC classification at http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/TC/mftc -- due 2010-02-17 -- OPEN
11:02:20 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/140
11:02:34 <raphael>  http://www.w3.org/2005/08/online_xslt/xslt?xslfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2008%2FWebVideo%2FFragments%2FTC%2Fmftc2html.xslt&xmlfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2008%2FWebVideo%2FFragments%2FTC%2Fmftc.rdf&content-type=&submit=transform
11:02:38 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/TC/
11:03:25 <raphael> Michael: just simple table layout
11:03:35 <raphael> ... do you have any suggestions?
11:04:04 <raphael> close ACTION-140
11:04:04 <trackbot> ACTION-140 Create a more readable version of the TC classification at http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/TC/mftc closed
11:04:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
11:05:19 <raphael> s/3. SPECIFICATION:/Topic: 3. SPECIFICATION
11:05:41 <raphael> Topic: 5. AOB
11:06:06 <raphael> Silvia: I have mentionned a list of errors for the time dimension
11:06:21 <raphael> ... I would appreciate if we could include that into the TC
11:06:28 <raphael> ... and add them in the TC
11:06:39 <raphael> s/in the TC/in the Section 6
11:06:47 <raphael> ... it would be good if could agree on that
11:08:11 <Zakim> -mhausenblas
11:08:36 <raphael> Michael: I will add these TC in the good place (my action-118) by next week
11:08:43 <raphael> Raphael: ok, so we discuss that next week
11:08:46 <raphael> [adjourned]
11:08:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
11:09:09 <Zakim> -silvia
11:17:01 <Zakim> -Yves
11:17:03 <Zakim> -raphael
11:17:03 <Zakim> IA_MFWG()5:00AM has ended
11:17:04 <Zakim> Attendees were +49.300.aaaa, raphael, Yves, Jack_Jansen, mhausenblas, conrad, silvia
11:17:19 <mhausenblas> FYI: I've now updated http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/TestCasesOverview
11:17:39 <mhausenblas> so that there is a direct link to the MFTC categorisation and tabular rendering
11:18:04 <mhausenblas> cya
11:21:40 <conrad> conrad has joined #mediafrag
12:14:43 <conrad> conrad has joined #mediafrag
12:54:46 <raphael> zakim, bye
12:54:46 <Zakim> Zakim has left #mediafrag
12:55:35 <raphael> <mhausenblas> 
12:55:46 <raphael> ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
12:55:51 <raphael> RRSAgent, draft minutes
12:55:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
12:56:19 <raphael> RRSAgent, bye
12:56:19 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-actions.rdf :
12:56:19 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Conrad to add a paragraph in the section 5.2.1 that further clarify the role of the UA for rendering a media fragment [1]
12:56:19 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-irc#T10-38-54
12:56:19 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Troncy to apply this change in the section 5.1.3 (jack's note) [2]
12:56:19 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-irc#T10-44-14
12:56:19 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Silvia to move 5.1.5 into a new section [3]
12:56:19 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-irc#T10-47-32
12:56:19 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Silvia to move the section 5.1.1 to the top [4]
12:56:19 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-irc#T10-49-37