IRC log of mediafrag on 2010-02-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

10:02:06 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #mediafrag
10:02:06 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-irc
10:02:08 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
10:02:08 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #mediafrag
10:02:10 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be IA_MFWG
10:02:10 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see IA_MFWG()5:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
10:02:11 [trackbot]: Meeting: Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference
10:02:11 [trackbot]: Date: 17 February 2010
10:02:17 [Zakim]: IA_MFWG()5:00AM has now started
10:02:26 [Zakim]: + +49.300.aaaa
10:02:36 [raphael]: zakim, aaaa is me
10:02:36 [Zakim]: +raphael; got it
10:02:55 [raphael]: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Feb/0037.html
10:03:05 [raphael]: RRSAgent, draft minutes
10:03:05 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
10:03:12 [raphael]: RRSAgent, make logs public
10:03:15 [jackjansen]: jackjansen has joined #mediafrag
10:03:49 [Zakim]: +Yves
10:03:57 [raphael]: Chair: Erik, Raphael
10:04:14 [raphael]: Present: Jack, Yves, Raphael, Silvia, Michael
10:04:19 [raphael]: Regrets: Davy
10:04:24 [jackjansen]: zakim, code?
10:04:24 [Zakim]: the conference code is 3724 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jackjansen
10:05:42 [conrad]: conrad has joined #mediafrag
10:05:51 [Zakim]: +Jack_Jansen
10:06:20 [raphael]: Present+ Conrad
10:06:30 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
10:08:42 [conrad]: Zakim, code?
10:08:42 [Zakim]: the conference code is 3724 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), conrad
10:08:58 [raphael]: Silvia, are you planning to join?
10:09:33 [Zakim]: +mhausenblas
10:09:46 [mhausenblas]: Zakim, who's here?
10:09:46 [Zakim]: On the phone I see raphael, Yves, Jack_Jansen, mhausenblas
10:09:47 [Zakim]: On IRC I see conrad, jackjansen, Zakim, RRSAgent, mhausenblas, raphael, silvia, Yves, trackbot
10:10:09 [mhausenblas]: ACTION-140?
10:10:09 [trackbot]: ACTION-140 -- Michael Hausenblas to create a more readable version of the TC classification at http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/TC/mftc -- due 2010-02-17 -- OPEN
10:10:09 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/140
10:10:12 [erik]: erik has joined #mediafrag
10:10:18 [mhausenblas]: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/TC/
10:10:24 [raphael]: Present+ Erik
10:10:29 [mhausenblas]: http://www.w3.org/2005/08/online_xslt/xslt?xslfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2008%2FWebVideo%2FFragments%2FTC%2Fmftc2html.xslt&xmlfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2008%2FWebVideo%2FFragments%2FTC%2Fmftc.rdf&content-type=&submit=transform
10:10:48 [Zakim]: +??P7
10:10:55 [conrad]: Zakim, ??P7 is me
10:10:55 [Zakim]: +conrad; got it
10:11:46 [raphael]: Topic: 1. ADmin
10:11:56 [raphael]: Accept the minutes at http://www.w3.org/2010/02/10-mediafrag-minutes.html
10:11:57 [mhausenblas]: +1
10:11:58 [raphael]: +1
10:12:01 [jackjansen]: +1
10:12:16 [raphael]: Topic: 2. F2F Agenda
10:12:17 [raphael]: F2F Meeting
10:12:23 [raphael]: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/FithF2FAgenda
10:13:45 [conrad]: raphael, the agenda is open for suggestions
10:13:56 [conrad]: 3. SPECIFICATION:
10:13:56 [conrad]: * ACTION-134: Erik to mark up the spec with normative and informative classes [postpone?]
10:13:56 [conrad]: * ACTION-139: Silvia to mark up specified sections as implementable
10:14:06 [conrad]: raphael: silvia is not here but she has done 138 and 138 (?)
10:14:14 [mhausenblas]: s/raphael, the/raphael: the
10:14:21 [mhausenblas]: rrsagent, draft minutes
10:14:21 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-minutes.html mhausenblas
10:14:29 [mhausenblas]: rrsagent, make log public
10:14:39 [conrad]: close action-138
10:14:40 [trackbot]: ACTION-138 Include Erik's diagrams into specification closed
10:14:42 [conrad]: close action-139
10:14:42 [trackbot]: ACTION-139 Mark up specified sections as implementable closed
10:14:55 [raphael]: Current document: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-spec/
10:15:07 [conrad]: raphael: regarding section 5.1.3
10:15:24 [Yves]: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-spec/#processing-name-value-lists
10:15:40 [conrad]: raphael: silvia thinks we should also mark it as implementable
10:15:56 [conrad]: raphael: the only thing refraining her from that atm is an objection from jack
10:16:14 [conrad]: raphael: jack notes that we have not yet concluded if an unspecified dimension should be a zero or not
10:16:38 [conrad]: raphael: we need to decide how strict/lax we need to be with interpretations of the spec
10:17:06 [Yves]: what happens with http://www.example.com/foo.m4a#t=12-20&this_is_not_a_mediafrag will return a valid mediafrag using 5.1.3
10:17:16 [conrad]: jack: i still think that being relaxed is fine, but if something is over-specified, such as specifying two time prefixes or two spatial prefixes, there would be too much scope for error
10:17:46 [conrad]: jack: for every cascading rule you can find a use case, where one overrides or extends the other
10:17:55 [conrad]: jack: i don't feel confident about stating that one rule can handle 90% of cases
10:19:14 [conrad]: jack: if there is no clear rule, eg. saying t=100,200&t=20,40, then how should that be interpreted? there are 3 obvious possible interpretations, and each has people backing it
10:19:20 [Zakim]: +silvia
10:19:26 [silvia]: zakim, mute me
10:19:26 [Zakim]: silvia should now be muted
10:20:03 [conrad]: jack: i'm perfectly happy with name=value pairs we don't understand, that is up to implementations
10:20:22 [conrad]: jack: if there is a name=value pair that we do understand, we should be stricter about that
10:20:24 [raphael]: zakim, ack yves
10:20:24 [Zakim]: I see no one on the speaker queue
10:20:59 [conrad]: yves: this is test 3b (?) -- we should be clear about handling of things that are not recognized, partial media fragments etc.
10:21:14 [Yves]: s/3b/3e/
10:21:17 [conrad]: yves: a validator should provide errors
10:21:23 [conrad]: jack: i agree
10:22:09 [conrad]: raphael; for a good combination of things that we can recognize, jack is saying that we shouldn't try to understand what they are doing, but specify a rule
10:22:16 [Yves]: things that can be recovered could be close strings, like xyhw -> xywh (obvious typo)
10:22:18 [conrad]: jack: yes, according to our spec it should throw an error
10:22:41 [conrad]: jack: just like we cannot accept xywh and t combined, id and t combined should give the same result as two t's combined
10:23:21 [conrad]: Zakim, mut eme
10:23:21 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'mut eme', conrad
10:24:07 [jackjansen]: s/xywh and t combined, //
10:24:11 [silvia]: zakim, unmute me
10:24:11 [Zakim]: silvia should no longer be muted
10:26:10 [jackjansen]: My pref would by: replace all "Any previously set value is discarded" with "it is an error if a value was previously set"
10:26:25 [conrad]: silvia: we need to resolve how these ambiguous cases and combined parameters are handled
10:27:13 [conrad]: silvia: i think what jack in particular objected to was philip's suggestion that any previous key=value settings are discarded on error
10:28:05 [erik]: rssagent, draft minutes
10:28:18 [Yves]: +1 to error instead of discarding
10:28:20 [raphael]: RRSAgent, draft minutes
10:28:20 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
10:28:31 [conrad]: jack: i would suggest that instead of discarding newly set disallowed values, an error should be thrown
10:29:14 [conrad]: jack: from a (parser/UA) implementors point of view, simply discarding seems simpler, but a content author may expect cascading
10:29:40 [Yves]: I can think of an intersection of t #t=10,20&t=6,12&intersect
10:29:44 [Yves]: not a mediafrag => mediafrag recognition fails
10:29:50 [conrad]: jack: i cannot see of a clear rule that prefers discarding or cascading, so we should just specify an error
10:29:51 [raphael]: Jack: we cannot find a general way for cascading rules, so throw an error
10:29:57 [Yves]: (defined in another spec, for example)
10:30:09 [conrad]: silvia: i agree -- discarding would just encourage lazy programming
10:30:50 [conrad]: yves: if there is no specification for an intersection, no problem, but in our case if we don't flag an error then we have to specify it as a valid media fragment
10:31:03 [conrad]: yves: i agree that it should be an error
10:31:56 [conrad]: conrad: what is an error
10:32:22 [conrad]: raphael: it is not a media fragment
10:32:41 [conrad]: silvia: it must be simply discarded and the fragment cannot be resolved as a media fragment
10:33:00 [conrad]: silvia: [analogy to html page]
10:33:12 [jackjansen]: We seem to have moved to 5.1.5
10:33:19 [conrad]: raphael: but in the case of an HTML UA, everything is happening within the UA, not on the network
10:33:40 [conrad]: silvia: i think it is the same for both html and media resources
10:33:51 [jackjansen]: (and I think that that editorial that is attributed to Michael is actually mine:-)
10:34:00 [conrad]: silvia: case 1) for html if the # cannot be resolved, the full resource is displayed
10:34:17 [raphael]: yes Jack, but you defer it to Michael a long time ago :-)
10:34:22 [conrad]: silvia: for media, if the # cannot be understood, the whole resource is shown from the beginning
10:34:30 [jackjansen]: good:-)
10:34:55 [conrad]: silvia: case 2) if the resource has previously been loaded: same behaviour, HTML goes to top of page, media should go to the beginning
10:35:05 [jackjansen]: q+
10:35:24 [conrad]: raphael: perhaps we should merge section 5.1.3, 5.1.5 on these topics
10:35:47 [conrad]: jack: for error handling, i think we should make sure that put this in informative text not normative text
10:35:56 [conrad]: jack: because the best case for handling an error is up to the application
10:36:39 [Yves]: also authoring tools should report errors
10:36:41 [conrad]: jack: in the case of eg. pay-per-view content the UA may offer to interfere and confirm with the user
10:36:44 [conrad]: silvia: i agree
10:36:47 [raphael]: Raphael: there is the proposal of making 5.1.5 into a full section 6
10:37:51 [conrad]: silvia: michael, did you get a chance to review the list of error cases presented last week
10:37:59 [mhausenblas]: Michael: I agree
10:38:07 [jackjansen]: silvia, url?
10:38:09 [mhausenblas]: silence == agreement ;)
10:38:29 [conrad]: silvia: 5.1.5: we need to look at errors in each of the dimensions (time, track, id)
10:38:46 [conrad]: silvia: and then if we look at combined dimensions then we need more cases
10:38:53 [conrad]: silvia: hence i'm suggesting to make it into a full section
10:38:54 [raphael]: ACTION: Conrad to add a paragraph in the section 5.2.1 that further clarify the role of the UA for rendering a media fragment
10:38:54 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-141 - Add a paragraph in the section 5.2.1 that further clarify the role of the UA for rendering a media fragment [on Conrad Parker - due 2010-02-24].
10:39:21 [mhausenblas]: q+ to note re appendix
10:39:25 [jackjansen]: q-
10:39:29 [mhausenblas]: hey!
10:39:59 [mhausenblas]: ack me
10:39:59 [Zakim]: mhausenblas, you wanted to note re appendix
10:40:16 [conrad]: michael: i would prefer to have the POV of an implementer that needs/wants to run the test cases
10:40:53 [conrad]: michael: from implementer's pov it should be as easy as possible to do their [verification?] work
10:41:52 [raphael]: scribenick: Raphael
10:41:55 [raphael]: scribenick: raphael
10:42:35 [jackjansen]: +1
10:43:01 [raphael]: Suggestion: replace all "Any previously set value is discarded" with "it is an error if a value was previously set" in 5.1.3 and remove editorial note of Jack
10:43:12 [silvia]: +1
10:43:14 [mhausenblas]: s/Suggegstion/Proposal:
10:43:14 [raphael]: +1
10:43:19 [Yves]: +1
10:43:20 [mhausenblas]: +1
10:43:21 [conrad]: +1
10:43:40 [silvia]: zakim, mute me
10:43:40 [Zakim]: silvia should now be muted
10:43:40 [raphael]: RESOLUTION: replace all "Any previously set value is discarded" with "it is an error if a value was previously set" in 5.1.3 and remove editorial note of Jack
10:43:49 [mhausenblas]: RRSAgent, draft minutes
10:43:49 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-minutes.html mhausenblas
10:44:14 [raphael]: ACTION: Troncy to apply this change in the section 5.1.3 (jack's note)
10:44:15 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-142 - Apply this change in the section 5.1.3 (jack's note) [on Raphaël Troncy - due 2010-02-24].
10:44:46 [raphael]: Raphael: Providing this change, can we mark this section as implementable?
10:45:04 [silvia]: zakim, unmute me
10:45:04 [Zakim]: silvia should no longer be muted
10:45:11 [Zakim]: -conrad
10:45:26 [raphael]: Jack: adding one more note about id?
10:45:55 [raphael]: Silvia: I would just say that everything concerning the time dimension is implementable, the rest is still under discussion
10:46:54 [raphael]: Jack: I would move 5.1.5 in an Appendix
10:47:07 [jackjansen]: s/would/would not
10:47:15 [raphael]: Silvia: I would move a section 6 and see later if we move it in an appendix depending the length of the document
10:47:32 [raphael]: ACTION: Silvia to move 5.1.5 into a new section
10:47:32 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-143 - Move 5.1.5 into a new section [on Silvia Pfeiffer - due 2010-02-24].
10:48:16 [raphael]: Raphael: Section 5.1.1 is related to ISSUE-13
10:48:20 [raphael]: ISSUE-13?
10:48:20 [trackbot]: ISSUE-13 -- Write a IETF draft for proposing how to register the fragment scheme for all media types -- OPEN
10:48:20 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/issues/13
10:48:35 [raphael]: Silvia: move this section to the top after the introduction
10:49:03 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
10:49:37 [raphael]: ACTION: Silvia to move the section 5.1.1 to the top
10:49:37 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-144 - Move the section 5.1.1 to the top [on Silvia Pfeiffer - due 2010-02-24].
10:50:59 [raphael]: Raphael: Section 5.1.4, general interpretation of media fragments, we have so far a HTML5 browser type of UA in mind
10:51:18 [raphael]: ... What are the other UA we are talking about?
10:51:58 [raphael]: Silvia: I'm not sure if we should say that all browsers should render the same way
10:52:11 [raphael]: ACTION-141?
10:52:11 [trackbot]: ACTION-141 -- Conrad Parker to add a paragraph in the section 5.2.1 that further clarify the role of the UA for rendering a media fragment -- due 2010-02-24 -- OPEN
10:52:11 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/141
10:52:28 [raphael]: Silvia: perhaps start this discussion within the HTML5 fora
10:53:04 [conrad]: a non-browser UA could be a video editor as a consumer of media fragments
10:53:32 [raphael]: Jack: maybe we should turn the rendering into a new section as well
10:53:38 [raphael]: Silvia: I like that too
10:54:17 [raphael]: Jack: so we have sections about Syntax, Formal processing and then Guidelines and Errors
10:56:21 [raphael]: Silvia: how far we should go in terms of saying something about rendering of a media fragment is still a matter of discussion
10:58:22 [raphael]: Raphael: other UA ... video editor, qt player, youtube/dailymotion iPhone app, etc.
10:58:41 [raphael]: Silvia: I will start this dicussion thread within the Accessibility task Force of the HTML5 WG
10:58:47 [jackjansen]: but also think non-rendering apps (metadata annotation)
10:58:52 [raphael]: ... there are developers there that will udnerstand what we are talking about
11:00:15 [raphael]: Raphael: I'm uncomfortable with the fact that sections 3, 4.1 and 5.1.1 are marked as non-normative
11:00:21 [raphael]: ... could we just comment that?
11:00:40 [raphael]: Silvia: I tend to ignore that, I rather looked at implementable or not
11:01:25 [Zakim]: -Jack_Jansen
11:02:13 [raphael]: Topic: 4. Test Cases
11:02:16 [raphael]: ACTON-140?
11:02:20 [raphael]: ACTION-140?
11:02:20 [trackbot]: ACTION-140 -- Michael Hausenblas to create a more readable version of the TC classification at http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/TC/mftc -- due 2010-02-17 -- OPEN
11:02:20 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/140
11:02:34 [raphael]: http://www.w3.org/2005/08/online_xslt/xslt?xslfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2008%2FWebVideo%2FFragments%2FTC%2Fmftc2html.xslt&xmlfile=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2008%2FWebVideo%2FFragments%2FTC%2Fmftc.rdf&content-type=&submit=transform
11:02:38 [mhausenblas]: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/TC/
11:03:25 [raphael]: Michael: just simple table layout
11:03:35 [raphael]: ... do you have any suggestions?
11:04:04 [raphael]: close ACTION-140
11:04:04 [trackbot]: ACTION-140 Create a more readable version of the TC classification at http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/TC/mftc closed
11:04:15 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
11:05:19 [raphael]: s/3. SPECIFICATION:/Topic: 3. SPECIFICATION
11:05:41 [raphael]: Topic: 5. AOB
11:06:06 [raphael]: Silvia: I have mentionned a list of errors for the time dimension
11:06:21 [raphael]: ... I would appreciate if we could include that into the TC
11:06:28 [raphael]: ... and add them in the TC
11:06:39 [raphael]: s/in the TC/in the Section 6
11:06:47 [raphael]: ... it would be good if could agree on that
11:08:11 [Zakim]: -mhausenblas
11:08:36 [raphael]: Michael: I will add these TC in the good place (my action-118) by next week
11:08:43 [raphael]: Raphael: ok, so we discuss that next week
11:08:46 [raphael]: [adjourned]
11:08:51 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
11:09:09 [Zakim]: -silvia
11:17:01 [Zakim]: -Yves
11:17:03 [Zakim]: -raphael
11:17:03 [Zakim]: IA_MFWG()5:00AM has ended
11:17:04 [Zakim]: Attendees were +49.300.aaaa, raphael, Yves, Jack_Jansen, mhausenblas, conrad, silvia
11:17:19 [mhausenblas]: FYI: I've now updated http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/TestCasesOverview
11:17:39 [mhausenblas]: so that there is a direct link to the MFTC categorisation and tabular rendering
11:18:04 [mhausenblas]: cya
11:21:40 [conrad]: conrad has joined #mediafrag
12:14:43 [conrad]: conrad has joined #mediafrag
12:54:46 [raphael]: zakim, bye
12:54:46 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #mediafrag
12:55:35 [raphael]: <mhausenblas>
12:55:46 [raphael]: ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
12:55:51 [raphael]: RRSAgent, draft minutes
12:55:51 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-minutes.html raphael
12:56:19 [raphael]: RRSAgent, bye
12:56:19 [RRSAgent]: I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-actions.rdf :
12:56:19 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Conrad to add a paragraph in the section 5.2.1 that further clarify the role of the UA for rendering a media fragment [1]
12:56:19 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-irc#T10-38-54
12:56:19 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Troncy to apply this change in the section 5.1.3 (jack's note) [2]
12:56:19 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-irc#T10-44-14
12:56:19 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Silvia to move 5.1.5 into a new section [3]
12:56:19 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-irc#T10-47-32
12:56:19 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Silvia to move the section 5.1.1 to the top [4]
12:56:19 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-mediafrag-irc#T10-49-37