01:58:45 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
01:58:45 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-html-a11y-irc
01:58:57 <MikeSmithXX> Zakim, list?
01:58:57 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, MikeSmithXX.
01:59:03 <dsinger_> Zakim, who is here?
01:59:03 <Zakim> sorry, dsinger_, I don't know what conference this is
01:59:04 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, JF, Zakim, dsinger_, plh, MikeSmithXX, davidb, silvia, richardschwerdtfe, trackbot
01:59:04 <MikeSmithXX> zakim, list
01:59:04 <Zakim> I see IA_Team()10:00AM, W3C_(MEDIA)9:00PM active and no others scheduled to start in the next 15 minutes
01:59:25 <MikeSmithXX> Zakim, this will be MEDIA
01:59:25 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmithXX, I see W3C_(MEDIA)9:00PM already started
01:59:31 <dsinger_> Zakim, this is media
01:59:31 <Zakim> dsinger_, this was already W3C_(MEDIA)9:00PM
01:59:32 <Zakim> ok, dsinger_; that matches W3C_(MEDIA)9:00PM
01:59:43 <Zakim> +Plh
01:59:48 <MikeSmithXX> Zakim, call Mike
01:59:48 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmithXX; the call is being made
01:59:50 <Zakim> +Mike
02:00:03 <dsinger_> zakim, who is here?
02:00:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see dsinger_, John_Foliot, Plh, Mike
02:00:04 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, JF, Zakim, dsinger_, plh, MikeSmith, davidb, silvia, richardschwerdtfe, trackbot
02:00:43 <Zakim> + +61.2.801.2.aaaa
02:00:57 <silvia> zakim, aaaa is me
02:00:57 <Zakim> +silvia; got it
02:01:43 <dsinger_> zakim, mute dsinger_
02:01:43 <Zakim> dsinger_ should now be muted
02:02:12 <Zakim> +Eric_Carlson
02:05:26 <Zakim> +??P4
02:05:37 <Zakim> -??P4
02:05:48 <dsinger__> dsinger__ has joined #html-a11y
02:06:10 <dsinger__> zakim, mute dsinger_
02:06:10 <Zakim> dsinger_ was already muted, dsinger__
02:06:37 <frankolivier> frankolivier has joined #html-a11y
02:06:48 <silvia> 1. Multitrack JavaScript API
02:06:49 <silvia> Discussion & Agreement
02:06:49 <silvia> Specification:
02:06:49 <silvia> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_MultitrackAPI
02:07:07 <dsinger__> dsinger__ has joined #html-a11y
02:07:16 <MikeSmith> scribe: MikeSmith 
02:07:35 <MikeSmith> Topic: Multitrack JavaScript API
02:07:48 <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_MultitrackAPI
02:08:26 <MikeSmith> silvia: can have multiple tracks: caption tracks, subtitle tracks, etc.
02:09:15 <MikeSmith> ... so far there is no API for the browser to know [how to differentiate among the various tracks]
02:09:42 <MikeSmith> ... we discussed a declarative way for exposing the tracks to browsers
02:10:06 <MikeSmith> ... but after discussion, came to conclusion that we need an API
02:10:23 <MikeSmith> eric: nothing in this API is specific to a11y
02:10:49 <MikeSmith> ... instead it is a general-purpose API [for accessing multiple tracks]
02:11:11 <MikeSmith> ... so it brings additional value in general, not just for accessibility
02:11:16 <Zakim> +??P4
02:12:30 <MikeSmith> JF: we have an issue in that, e.g., section 508, still have a requirement that no critical accessibility require Javascript to be enabled
02:12:50 <MikeSmith> eric: the accessibility features are in no way dependent on this API
02:13:06 <MikeSmith> JF: OK, I want to make sure that it's not misconstrued
02:14:18 <MikeSmith> eric: one of my goals is to make sure that any feature we add inside the UA -- anything the UA can put into its UI (controller) -- should also be exposable to script -- so that developers can create alternative UIs
02:14:57 <MikeSmith> silvia: agreed about the need for this to be exposable through script
02:16:01 <dsinger__> zakim, unmute dsinger_
02:16:01 <Zakim> dsinger_ should no longer be muted
02:16:23 <dsinger__> zakim, mute dsinger_
02:16:23 <Zakim> dsinger_ should now be muted
02:16:34 <Zakim> +Janina_Sajka
02:16:42 <MikeSmith> Zakim, P4 is frankolivier 
02:16:42 <Zakim> sorry, MikeSmith, I do not recognize a party named 'P4'
02:17:00 <MikeSmith> Zakim, ??P4 is frankolivier 
02:17:00 <Zakim> +frankolivier; got it
02:17:11 <silvia> interface MediaTrack {
02:17:12 <silvia>   readonly attribute DOMString name;
02:17:12 <silvia>   readonly attribute DOMString role;
02:17:12 <silvia>   readonly attribute DOMString type;
02:17:12 <silvia>   readonly attribute DOMString lang;
02:17:12 <silvia>            attribute boolean enabled;
02:17:14 <silvia>   ...
02:17:16 <silvia> };
02:17:48 <MikeSmith> silvia: role = caption, subtitle, etc.
02:17:56 <MikeSmith> ... type=media type
02:18:13 <MikeSmith> ... lang = an IANA language tag
02:18:39 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #html-a11y
02:19:35 <MikeSmith> silvia: so we want to get opinions about the propose API
02:19:43 <MikeSmith> JF: role values are predefined?
02:20:48 <MikeSmith> silvia: we are, btw, doing some similar work in Ogg along these lines
02:21:40 <dsinger> how does this intersect with Richard's idea of basing the media queries on access-for-all ?
02:21:50 <MikeSmith> eric: I think it does need to be a predefined [enumerated] list of roles
02:22:10 <dsinger> no, the bus us too noisy
02:22:15 <dsinger> s/us/is/
02:22:56 <dsinger> zakim, who is making noise?
02:23:06 <Zakim> dsinger, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: silvia (100%), Eric_Carlson (25%)
02:24:12 <MikeSmith> janina: These are synchronized tracks?
02:24:15 <MikeSmith> silvia: yes
02:24:37 <MikeSmith> janina: what about structural navigation? is it just FF and rewind?
02:24:56 <MikeSmith> JF: you thinking about something along the Daisy model?
02:25:36 <MikeSmith> silvia: chapter-marking mechanism.. that is a meta-structural mechanism [that would reside on top of this]
02:26:13 <MikeSmith> eric: QT movies and MPEG4 files do have a chapter-track mechanism to find named sections of a file
02:27:05 <MikeSmith> silvia: but the mechanism of moving among [those is outside of the work we are doing here]
02:27:49 <Zakim> +Geoff_Freed
02:27:50 <MikeSmith> silvia: I think we need to do some more experimentation with this and then eventually propose it to the HTML WG as an addition to the spec
02:28:43 <MikeSmith> eric: essentially what we want to do is provide script-level access to the same set of information that the UA already has
02:29:06 <silvia> 2. Declarative syntax for associating external text resources
02:29:06 <silvia> Discussion & Agreement
02:29:06 <silvia> Specification:
02:29:06 <silvia> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_TextAssociations
02:29:41 <MikeSmith> Topic: Declarative syntax for associating external text resources
02:30:00 <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_TextAssociations
02:30:24 <MikeSmith> [Geoff summarizes the state of current discussion]
02:30:54 <MikeSmith> silvia: we have to schemes, one that Philip is currently defending, and one that is based on the wiki link above
02:31:15 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
02:31:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-html-a11y-minutes.html MikeSmith
02:31:20 <silvia> <video src="video.ogg">
02:31:20 <silvia>   <track role="subtitle">
02:31:20 <silvia>     <source src="video_sub_en.srt" type="text/srt; charset='Windows-1252'" lang="en">
02:31:20 <silvia>     <source src="video_sub_de.srt" type="text/srt; charset='ISO-8859-1'" lang="de">
02:31:20 <silvia>     <source src="video_sub_ja.srt" type="text/srt; charset='EUC-JP'" lang="ja">
02:31:21 <silvia>   </track>
02:31:23 <silvia> </video>
02:31:24 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make logs public
02:31:35 <gfreed> gfreed has joined #html-a11y
02:33:32 <MikeSmith> plh: so how does the track element get exposed to the multitrack API?
02:33:46 <MikeSmith> eric: we are in the midst of having a discussion about that now
02:33:49 <silvia> <video src="video.ogv">
02:33:49 <silvia>         <track src="subs.de.srt" srclang="de" role="SUB">
02:33:49 <silvia>         <track src="subs.sv.srt" srclang="sv" role="SUB">
02:33:49 <silvia>         <track src="subs.jp.srt" srclang="jp" role="SUB">
02:33:49 <silvia> </video>
02:34:34 <MikeSmith> the above is an alternative that has been proposed
02:35:10 <MikeSmith> silvia: [the semantics of that would need to be determined and specified]
02:35:32 <MikeSmith> s/the above/silvia: the above/
02:36:11 <MikeSmith> eric: clearly the UA would need to have a heuristic for making choices [among the roles provided]
02:37:14 <MikeSmith> silvia: If I have my browser prefs set to always display subtitles in German if they are available, then the UA would play the first one above
02:38:37 <MikeSmith> gfreed: what Silvia has described is almost exactly what Real Player did -- that the user can state a preference of, being able to state that they want to see captions and in what lang they want to see those captions
02:39:36 <dsinger> is there an access-for-all spec that uses media queries already? I know Richard is working on one
02:39:45 <MikeSmith> janina: the Media Queries through CSS in implemented [in Canada] through the AccessForAll [project? application?]
02:40:08 <MikeSmith> s/AccessForAll/access-for-all/
02:40:48 <MikeSmith> janina: the point is the we need a cascading set of choices
02:41:29 <MikeSmith> eric: Dave Singer and I have started to have a discussion with RichS about this
02:42:04 <MikeSmith> janina: I think it's important that we don't want to end up having multiple [redundant] ways of doing the same thing
02:42:07 <silvia> <video src="video.ogv">
02:42:07 <silvia>    <track src="cc.en.srt" srclang="en" role="CC" active>
02:42:07 <silvia>    <track src="tad.en.srt" srclang="en" role="TAD">
02:42:07 <silvia>    <trackgroup role="SUB">
02:42:07 <silvia>       <track src="subs.de.srt" srclang="de">
02:42:09 <silvia>        <track src="subs.sv.srt" srclang="sv">
02:42:10 <silvia>        <track src="subs.jp.srt" srclang="jp">
02:42:12 <silvia>    </trackgroup>
02:42:14 <silvia> </video>
02:43:00 <MikeSmith> silvia: above is yet another proposal under discussion
02:43:37 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
02:43:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-html-a11y-minutes.html MikeSmith
02:44:26 <MikeSmith> silvia: I think within the next week or so we will get agreement amongst ourselves on the final proposal
02:44:56 <MikeSmith> gfreed: would this most recent example that you pasted into IRC allow multiple displays of the same role?
02:45:23 <MikeSmith> ... that is, would I be able to display to subtitle track simultaneously?
02:45:55 <MikeSmith> silvia: so the way to do that now would be to take them out of the trackgroup and just make them tracks
02:46:25 <MikeSmith> ... [because the trackgroup semantics are that it contains alternate]
02:46:43 <MikeSmith> s/contains alternate/contains alternatives/
02:47:28 <MikeSmith> gfreed: my concern is just that we make sure we end up with a way that does allow display of multiple tracks with the same role at the same time
02:47:52 <MikeSmith> silvia: I am confident that we can come up with agreement
02:48:24 <MikeSmith> eric: I would go so far as to say that it's a requirement [nothing we spec should prevent multiple tracks of the same role from being displayed at the same time]
02:49:47 <MikeSmith> gfreed: I sent an example to the list of how iTunes deals with a case like this (the specific menu it provides for controlling this)
02:50:26 <MikeSmith> eric: so what we are working on is making that all configurable through script, so that authors/developers can provide their own UIs
02:50:45 <dsinger> w3c timed text?
02:51:24 <silvia> 3. External caption format support
02:51:25 <silvia> Discussion & Agreement
02:51:25 <silvia> Proposed:
02:51:25 <silvia> * srt
02:51:25 <silvia> * DFXP
02:51:34 <dsinger> what would be parsing the format?  scripts or the UA?
02:51:39 <MikeSmith> Topic: External caption format support
02:51:48 <plh> q+
02:52:12 <MikeSmith> gfreed: I would prefer that we lean toward DFXP, because it's been vetted and because it's a W3C spec
02:52:38 <dsinger> is there a scripted implementation of DFXP?
02:52:46 <MikeSmith> ... on the other hand, srt has not been fully vetted and is not a spec [in the same sense]
02:53:20 <MikeSmith> gfreed: it is true that DFXP is too big [complex] for some
02:53:38 <Zakim> -Eric_Carlson
02:53:44 <dsinger> we could recommend both, and give reasons for them?
02:53:49 <frankolivier> yes, there is (at least one) scripted implementation of dxfp (I have it in my bookmarks somewhere)
02:54:05 <plh> frank, yes there is :)
02:54:05 <MikeSmith> silvia: I think ultimately what we will end up with is a subset/profile of DFXP
02:54:19 <MikeSmith> plh: I did implement DFXP in JS
02:54:38 <MikeSmith> ... which by the way is just called "timed text" too
02:54:48 <MikeSmith> ... I would suggest also that we subset/profile it
02:54:54 <dsinger> it would have to be a profile, agreed, because it needs to be 'linear', at least
02:55:02 <MikeSmith> ... DFXP is currently "stuck" due to a particular feature
02:55:21 <plh> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2010Feb/0000.html
02:55:24 <MikeSmith> ... and the group and chair seemed poised to remove that particular feature
02:56:01 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
02:56:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-html-a11y-minutes.html MikeSmith
02:57:21 <plh> ack plh
02:57:50 <MikeSmith> gfreed: for the greater percentage of captioning and subtitling use cases, I would agree that DFXP has more features than needed, so it would make sense to subset/profile it
02:57:54 <dsinger> ack janina
02:58:27 <MikeSmith> janina: when we are at Stanford last year, one outcome we discussed was documenting the list of requirements
02:58:35 <MikeSmith> silvia: there is in fact a page at the Wiki for that
02:59:15 <MikeSmith> agenda+ discussing whether or not we need a follow-up call, and if so, when
03:00:02 <MikeSmith> silvia: I think we don't need to impose a deadline on this, but let the discussion proceed as it has been
03:02:03 <MikeSmith> gfreed: It might be useful to schedule a call for two weeks or three weeks [and try to get PhilipJ on]... particularly if it seems like we are stuck on e-mail
03:02:19 <MikeSmith> silvia: yeah, if it seems like we are stuck on e-mail, then would be good to have another call
03:02:51 <MikeSmith> silvia: I am not in a hurry to have another call, would suggest that we consider having one again if/when it seems like we need to
03:02:59 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
03:02:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-html-a11y-minutes.html MikeSmith
03:03:36 <Zakim> -dsinger_
03:03:41 <Zakim> -Janina_Sajka
03:03:43 <Zakim> -John_Foliot
03:03:44 <Zakim> -Geoff_Freed
03:03:44 <plh> zaki, drop plh
03:03:47 <Zakim> -silvia
03:03:48 <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Mike
03:03:48 <Zakim> Mike is being disconnected
03:03:48 <Zakim> -Mike
03:03:48 <plh> zakim, drop plh
03:03:50 <Zakim> Plh is being disconnected
03:03:50 <Zakim> -Plh
03:03:57 <Zakim> -frankolivier
03:03:59 <Zakim> W3C_(MEDIA)9:00PM has ended
03:04:01 <Zakim> Attendees were dsinger_, John_Foliot, Plh, Mike, +61.2.801.2.aaaa, silvia, Eric_Carlson, Janina_Sajka, frankolivier, Geoff_Freed
03:04:36 <gfreed> gfreed has left #html-a11y
03:06:19 <silvia> ah, forgot to ask: who is going to report on this to the larger task force on Thursday?
03:06:37 <silvia> do I have to get up at an unholy hour?
03:06:46 <MikeSmith> Present: DaveSinger, John_Foliot, PhilippeLeHegaret, MikeSmith, SilviaPfieffer, EricCarlson, JaninaSajka, FrankOlivier, GeoffFreed
03:07:23 <MikeSmith> silvia: I can report on it, and/or ask Eric to also if he can
03:07:29 <silvia> excellent, thanks
03:07:33 <silvia> that would be awesome
03:07:49 <MikeSmith> Eric is often on the calls and is much more articulate than me :)
03:17:45 <silvia> he can express things clearer than I do, too!
03:18:00 <silvia> at least in email I get time to formulate :)
03:18:05 <MikeSmith> yeah
03:23:34 <silvia> thanks a lot for organising
03:25:47 <MikeSmith> silvia, thanks for continuing to drive the work
03:26:10 <silvia> we made a little progress in the meeting, but it was probably worthwhile for everyone to catch up
03:26:16 <MikeSmith> yep
03:27:07 <silvia> there's a lot of great stuff around media happening right now - there's also the discussion about source selection based on bitrate and CPU on whatwg, which also links to media queries, potentially
03:27:55 <silvia> or might lead to an adaptive stream scaling model, which would be awesome
03:29:05 <silvia> it's really exciting times :)
03:45:24 <MikeSmith> definitely still a lot of room for getting improvements in
03:47:12 <MikeSmith> meeting: HTML5 accessibility media subgroup discussion
03:47:34 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
03:47:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/17-html-a11y-minutes.html MikeSmith
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