IRC log of html-a11y on 2010-02-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

01:58:45 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
01:58:45 [RRSAgent]
logging to
01:58:57 [MikeSmithXX]
Zakim, list?
01:58:57 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, MikeSmithXX.
01:59:03 [dsinger_]
Zakim, who is here?
01:59:03 [Zakim]
sorry, dsinger_, I don't know what conference this is
01:59:04 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, JF, Zakim, dsinger_, plh, MikeSmithXX, davidb, silvia, richardschwerdtfe, trackbot
01:59:04 [MikeSmithXX]
zakim, list
01:59:04 [Zakim]
I see IA_Team()10:00AM, W3C_(MEDIA)9:00PM active and no others scheduled to start in the next 15 minutes
01:59:25 [MikeSmithXX]
Zakim, this will be MEDIA
01:59:25 [Zakim]
ok, MikeSmithXX, I see W3C_(MEDIA)9:00PM already started
01:59:31 [dsinger_]
Zakim, this is media
01:59:31 [Zakim]
dsinger_, this was already W3C_(MEDIA)9:00PM
01:59:32 [Zakim]
ok, dsinger_; that matches W3C_(MEDIA)9:00PM
01:59:43 [Zakim]
01:59:48 [MikeSmithXX]
Zakim, call Mike
01:59:48 [Zakim]
ok, MikeSmithXX; the call is being made
01:59:50 [Zakim]
02:00:03 [dsinger_]
zakim, who is here?
02:00:03 [Zakim]
On the phone I see dsinger_, John_Foliot, Plh, Mike
02:00:04 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, JF, Zakim, dsinger_, plh, MikeSmith, davidb, silvia, richardschwerdtfe, trackbot
02:00:43 [Zakim]
+ +61.2.801.2.aaaa
02:00:57 [silvia]
zakim, aaaa is me
02:00:57 [Zakim]
+silvia; got it
02:01:43 [dsinger_]
zakim, mute dsinger_
02:01:43 [Zakim]
dsinger_ should now be muted
02:02:12 [Zakim]
02:05:26 [Zakim]
02:05:37 [Zakim]
02:05:48 [dsinger__]
dsinger__ has joined #html-a11y
02:06:10 [dsinger__]
zakim, mute dsinger_
02:06:10 [Zakim]
dsinger_ was already muted, dsinger__
02:06:37 [frankolivier]
frankolivier has joined #html-a11y
02:06:48 [silvia]
1. Multitrack JavaScript API
02:06:49 [silvia]
Discussion & Agreement
02:06:49 [silvia]
02:06:49 [silvia]
02:07:07 [dsinger__]
dsinger__ has joined #html-a11y
02:07:16 [MikeSmith]
scribe: MikeSmith
02:07:35 [MikeSmith]
Topic: Multitrack JavaScript API
02:07:48 [MikeSmith]
02:08:26 [MikeSmith]
silvia: can have multiple tracks: caption tracks, subtitle tracks, etc.
02:09:15 [MikeSmith]
... so far there is no API for the browser to know [how to differentiate among the various tracks]
02:09:42 [MikeSmith]
... we discussed a declarative way for exposing the tracks to browsers
02:10:06 [MikeSmith]
... but after discussion, came to conclusion that we need an API
02:10:23 [MikeSmith]
eric: nothing in this API is specific to a11y
02:10:49 [MikeSmith]
... instead it is a general-purpose API [for accessing multiple tracks]
02:11:11 [MikeSmith]
... so it brings additional value in general, not just for accessibility
02:11:16 [Zakim]
02:12:30 [MikeSmith]
JF: we have an issue in that, e.g., section 508, still have a requirement that no critical accessibility require Javascript to be enabled
02:12:50 [MikeSmith]
eric: the accessibility features are in no way dependent on this API
02:13:06 [MikeSmith]
JF: OK, I want to make sure that it's not misconstrued
02:14:18 [MikeSmith]
eric: one of my goals is to make sure that any feature we add inside the UA -- anything the UA can put into its UI (controller) -- should also be exposable to script -- so that developers can create alternative UIs
02:14:57 [MikeSmith]
silvia: agreed about the need for this to be exposable through script
02:16:01 [dsinger__]
zakim, unmute dsinger_
02:16:01 [Zakim]
dsinger_ should no longer be muted
02:16:23 [dsinger__]
zakim, mute dsinger_
02:16:23 [Zakim]
dsinger_ should now be muted
02:16:34 [Zakim]
02:16:42 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, P4 is frankolivier
02:16:42 [Zakim]
sorry, MikeSmith, I do not recognize a party named 'P4'
02:17:00 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, ??P4 is frankolivier
02:17:00 [Zakim]
+frankolivier; got it
02:17:11 [silvia]
interface MediaTrack {
02:17:12 [silvia]
readonly attribute DOMString name;
02:17:12 [silvia]
readonly attribute DOMString role;
02:17:12 [silvia]
readonly attribute DOMString type;
02:17:12 [silvia]
readonly attribute DOMString lang;
02:17:12 [silvia]
attribute boolean enabled;
02:17:14 [silvia]
02:17:16 [silvia]
02:17:48 [MikeSmith]
silvia: role = caption, subtitle, etc.
02:17:56 [MikeSmith]
... type=media type
02:18:13 [MikeSmith]
... lang = an IANA language tag
02:18:39 [dsinger]
dsinger has joined #html-a11y
02:19:35 [MikeSmith]
silvia: so we want to get opinions about the propose API
02:19:43 [MikeSmith]
JF: role values are predefined?
02:20:48 [MikeSmith]
silvia: we are, btw, doing some similar work in Ogg along these lines
02:21:40 [dsinger]
how does this intersect with Richard's idea of basing the media queries on access-for-all ?
02:21:50 [MikeSmith]
eric: I think it does need to be a predefined [enumerated] list of roles
02:22:10 [dsinger]
no, the bus us too noisy
02:22:15 [dsinger]
02:22:56 [dsinger]
zakim, who is making noise?
02:23:06 [Zakim]
dsinger, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: silvia (100%), Eric_Carlson (25%)
02:24:12 [MikeSmith]
janina: These are synchronized tracks?
02:24:15 [MikeSmith]
silvia: yes
02:24:37 [MikeSmith]
janina: what about structural navigation? is it just FF and rewind?
02:24:56 [MikeSmith]
JF: you thinking about something along the Daisy model?
02:25:36 [MikeSmith]
silvia: chapter-marking mechanism.. that is a meta-structural mechanism [that would reside on top of this]
02:26:13 [MikeSmith]
eric: QT movies and MPEG4 files do have a chapter-track mechanism to find named sections of a file
02:27:05 [MikeSmith]
silvia: but the mechanism of moving among [those is outside of the work we are doing here]
02:27:49 [Zakim]
02:27:50 [MikeSmith]
silvia: I think we need to do some more experimentation with this and then eventually propose it to the HTML WG as an addition to the spec
02:28:43 [MikeSmith]
eric: essentially what we want to do is provide script-level access to the same set of information that the UA already has
02:29:06 [silvia]
2. Declarative syntax for associating external text resources
02:29:06 [silvia]
Discussion & Agreement
02:29:06 [silvia]
02:29:06 [silvia]
02:29:41 [MikeSmith]
Topic: Declarative syntax for associating external text resources
02:30:00 [MikeSmith]
02:30:24 [MikeSmith]
[Geoff summarizes the state of current discussion]
02:30:54 [MikeSmith]
silvia: we have to schemes, one that Philip is currently defending, and one that is based on the wiki link above
02:31:15 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
02:31:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
02:31:20 [silvia]
<video src="video.ogg">
02:31:20 [silvia]
<track role="subtitle">
02:31:20 [silvia]
<source src="" type="text/srt; charset='Windows-1252'" lang="en">
02:31:20 [silvia]
<source src="" type="text/srt; charset='ISO-8859-1'" lang="de">
02:31:20 [silvia]
<source src="" type="text/srt; charset='EUC-JP'" lang="ja">
02:31:21 [silvia]
02:31:23 [silvia]
02:31:24 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make logs public
02:31:35 [gfreed]
gfreed has joined #html-a11y
02:33:32 [MikeSmith]
plh: so how does the track element get exposed to the multitrack API?
02:33:46 [MikeSmith]
eric: we are in the midst of having a discussion about that now
02:33:49 [silvia]
<video src="video.ogv">
02:33:49 [silvia]
        <track src="" srclang="de" role="SUB">
02:33:49 [silvia]
        <track src="" srclang="sv" role="SUB">
02:33:49 [silvia]
        <track src="" srclang="jp" role="SUB">
02:33:49 [silvia]
02:34:34 [MikeSmith]
the above is an alternative that has been proposed
02:35:10 [MikeSmith]
silvia: [the semantics of that would need to be determined and specified]
02:35:32 [MikeSmith]
s/the above/silvia: the above/
02:36:11 [MikeSmith]
eric: clearly the UA would need to have a heuristic for making choices [among the roles provided]
02:37:14 [MikeSmith]
silvia: If I have my browser prefs set to always display subtitles in German if they are available, then the UA would play the first one above
02:38:37 [MikeSmith]
gfreed: what Silvia has described is almost exactly what Real Player did -- that the user can state a preference of, being able to state that they want to see captions and in what lang they want to see those captions
02:39:36 [dsinger]
is there an access-for-all spec that uses media queries already? I know Richard is working on one
02:39:45 [MikeSmith]
janina: the Media Queries through CSS in implemented [in Canada] through the AccessForAll [project? application?]
02:40:08 [MikeSmith]
02:40:48 [MikeSmith]
janina: the point is the we need a cascading set of choices
02:41:29 [MikeSmith]
eric: Dave Singer and I have started to have a discussion with RichS about this
02:42:04 [MikeSmith]
janina: I think it's important that we don't want to end up having multiple [redundant] ways of doing the same thing
02:42:07 [silvia]
<video src="video.ogv">
02:42:07 [silvia]
   <track src="" srclang="en" role="CC" active>
02:42:07 [silvia]
   <track src="" srclang="en" role="TAD">
02:42:07 [silvia]
   <trackgroup role="SUB">
02:42:07 [silvia]
      <track src="" srclang="de">
02:42:09 [silvia]
       <track src="" srclang="sv">
02:42:10 [silvia]
       <track src="" srclang="jp">
02:42:12 [silvia]
02:42:14 [silvia]
02:43:00 [MikeSmith]
silvia: above is yet another proposal under discussion
02:43:37 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
02:43:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
02:44:26 [MikeSmith]
silvia: I think within the next week or so we will get agreement amongst ourselves on the final proposal
02:44:56 [MikeSmith]
gfreed: would this most recent example that you pasted into IRC allow multiple displays of the same role?
02:45:23 [MikeSmith]
... that is, would I be able to display to subtitle track simultaneously?
02:45:55 [MikeSmith]
silvia: so the way to do that now would be to take them out of the trackgroup and just make them tracks
02:46:25 [MikeSmith]
... [because the trackgroup semantics are that it contains alternate]
02:46:43 [MikeSmith]
s/contains alternate/contains alternatives/
02:47:28 [MikeSmith]
gfreed: my concern is just that we make sure we end up with a way that does allow display of multiple tracks with the same role at the same time
02:47:52 [MikeSmith]
silvia: I am confident that we can come up with agreement
02:48:24 [MikeSmith]
eric: I would go so far as to say that it's a requirement [nothing we spec should prevent multiple tracks of the same role from being displayed at the same time]
02:49:47 [MikeSmith]
gfreed: I sent an example to the list of how iTunes deals with a case like this (the specific menu it provides for controlling this)
02:50:26 [MikeSmith]
eric: so what we are working on is making that all configurable through script, so that authors/developers can provide their own UIs
02:50:45 [dsinger]
w3c timed text?
02:51:24 [silvia]
3. External caption format support
02:51:25 [silvia]
Discussion & Agreement
02:51:25 [silvia]
02:51:25 [silvia]
* srt
02:51:25 [silvia]
02:51:34 [dsinger]
what would be parsing the format? scripts or the UA?
02:51:39 [MikeSmith]
Topic: External caption format support
02:51:48 [plh]
02:52:12 [MikeSmith]
gfreed: I would prefer that we lean toward DFXP, because it's been vetted and because it's a W3C spec
02:52:38 [dsinger]
is there a scripted implementation of DFXP?
02:52:46 [MikeSmith]
... on the other hand, srt has not been fully vetted and is not a spec [in the same sense]
02:53:20 [MikeSmith]
gfreed: it is true that DFXP is too big [complex] for some
02:53:38 [Zakim]
02:53:44 [dsinger]
we could recommend both, and give reasons for them?
02:53:49 [frankolivier]
yes, there is (at least one) scripted implementation of dxfp (I have it in my bookmarks somewhere)
02:54:05 [plh]
frank, yes there is :)
02:54:05 [MikeSmith]
silvia: I think ultimately what we will end up with is a subset/profile of DFXP
02:54:19 [MikeSmith]
plh: I did implement DFXP in JS
02:54:38 [MikeSmith]
... which by the way is just called "timed text" too
02:54:48 [MikeSmith]
... I would suggest also that we subset/profile it
02:54:54 [dsinger]
it would have to be a profile, agreed, because it needs to be 'linear', at least
02:55:02 [MikeSmith]
... DFXP is currently "stuck" due to a particular feature
02:55:21 [plh]
02:55:24 [MikeSmith]
... and the group and chair seemed poised to remove that particular feature
02:56:01 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
02:56:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
02:57:21 [plh]
ack plh
02:57:50 [MikeSmith]
gfreed: for the greater percentage of captioning and subtitling use cases, I would agree that DFXP has more features than needed, so it would make sense to subset/profile it
02:57:54 [dsinger]
ack janina
02:58:27 [MikeSmith]
janina: when we are at Stanford last year, one outcome we discussed was documenting the list of requirements
02:58:35 [MikeSmith]
silvia: there is in fact a page at the Wiki for that
02:59:15 [MikeSmith]
agenda+ discussing whether or not we need a follow-up call, and if so, when
03:00:02 [MikeSmith]
silvia: I think we don't need to impose a deadline on this, but let the discussion proceed as it has been
03:02:03 [MikeSmith]
gfreed: It might be useful to schedule a call for two weeks or three weeks [and try to get PhilipJ on]... particularly if it seems like we are stuck on e-mail
03:02:19 [MikeSmith]
silvia: yeah, if it seems like we are stuck on e-mail, then would be good to have another call
03:02:51 [MikeSmith]
silvia: I am not in a hurry to have another call, would suggest that we consider having one again if/when it seems like we need to
03:02:59 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
03:02:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
03:03:36 [Zakim]
03:03:41 [Zakim]
03:03:43 [Zakim]
03:03:44 [Zakim]
03:03:44 [plh]
zaki, drop plh
03:03:47 [Zakim]
03:03:48 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, drop Mike
03:03:48 [Zakim]
Mike is being disconnected
03:03:48 [Zakim]
03:03:48 [plh]
zakim, drop plh
03:03:50 [Zakim]
Plh is being disconnected
03:03:50 [Zakim]
03:03:57 [Zakim]
03:03:59 [Zakim]
W3C_(MEDIA)9:00PM has ended
03:04:01 [Zakim]
Attendees were dsinger_, John_Foliot, Plh, Mike, +61.2.801.2.aaaa, silvia, Eric_Carlson, Janina_Sajka, frankolivier, Geoff_Freed
03:04:36 [gfreed]
gfreed has left #html-a11y
03:06:19 [silvia]
ah, forgot to ask: who is going to report on this to the larger task force on Thursday?
03:06:37 [silvia]
do I have to get up at an unholy hour?
03:06:46 [MikeSmith]
Present: DaveSinger, John_Foliot, PhilippeLeHegaret, MikeSmith, SilviaPfieffer, EricCarlson, JaninaSajka, FrankOlivier, GeoffFreed
03:07:23 [MikeSmith]
silvia: I can report on it, and/or ask Eric to also if he can
03:07:29 [silvia]
excellent, thanks
03:07:33 [silvia]
that would be awesome
03:07:49 [MikeSmith]
Eric is often on the calls and is much more articulate than me :)
03:17:45 [silvia]
he can express things clearer than I do, too!
03:18:00 [silvia]
at least in email I get time to formulate :)
03:18:05 [MikeSmith]
03:23:34 [silvia]
thanks a lot for organising
03:25:47 [MikeSmith]
silvia, thanks for continuing to drive the work
03:26:10 [silvia]
we made a little progress in the meeting, but it was probably worthwhile for everyone to catch up
03:26:16 [MikeSmith]
03:27:07 [silvia]
there's a lot of great stuff around media happening right now - there's also the discussion about source selection based on bitrate and CPU on whatwg, which also links to media queries, potentially
03:27:55 [silvia]
or might lead to an adaptive stream scaling model, which would be awesome
03:29:05 [silvia]
it's really exciting times :)
03:45:24 [MikeSmith]
definitely still a lot of room for getting improvements in
03:47:12 [MikeSmith]
meeting: HTML5 accessibility media subgroup discussion
03:47:34 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
03:47:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
04:13:15 [foolip]
foolip has joined #html-a11y
05:07:43 [dsinger]
dsinger has joined #html-a11y
07:02:53 [MikeSmithX]
MikeSmithX has joined #html-a11y