14:53:01 RRSAgent has joined #sparql 14:53:01 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/02/16-sparql-irc 14:53:11 Zakim, this will be sparql 14:53:11 ok, AxelPolleres; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes 14:53:32 oh, indeed... 14:57:47 AxelPolleres has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2010-02-16 (AxelPolleres) 14:57:54 I can if necessary, but the agenda is SD-heavy, so might be talking a lot.. 14:58:47 regrets: AndyS, LeeF, MattPerry 14:59:09 SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started 14:59:16 + +0186528aaaa 14:59:26 + +1.919.543.aabb 14:59:32 Zakim, +0186528aaaa is me 14:59:32 +bglimm; got it 14:59:43 + +03539149aacc 14:59:58 greg... let's do the following, you start, when SD comes on, you just take over chairng that item, and I scribe, if ivan isn't here yet 14:59:59 dcharbon2 has joined #sparql 15:00:02 + +49.238.aadd 15:00:08 + +1.312.863.aaee 15:00:13 Zakim, aacc is me 15:00:18 + +1.518.276.aaff 15:00:18 Axel, sure. 15:00:22 + +1.770.910.aagg 15:00:25 Zakim, aaee is me 15:00:25 Zakim, aaff is me 15:00:27 scribe: Greg Williams 15:00:28 +AxelPolleres; got it 15:00:32 +pgearon; got it 15:00:34 +kasei; got it 15:00:34 scribenick: kasei 15:00:36 Zakim, aaee is me 15:00:42 sorry, pgearon, I do not recognize a party named 'aaee' 15:00:47 Zakim, +1.770.910.aagg is Prateek 15:00:48 +Prateek; got it 15:00:55 Zakim, who is on the phone? 15:00:55 On the phone I see bglimm, +1.919.543.aabb, AxelPolleres, +49.238.aadd, pgearon, kasei, Prateek 15:01:04 -Prateek 15:01:13 Zakim, aadd is me 15:01:13 +OlivierCorby; got it 15:01:31 chimezie has joined #sparql 15:01:32 Zakim, mute me 15:01:32 kasei should now be muted 15:01:40 +Prateek 15:01:42 +??P34 15:01:46 +??P32 15:01:47 Zakim, who is on the phone? 15:01:50 On the phone I see bglimm, +1.919.543.aabb, AxelPolleres, OlivierCorby, pgearon, kasei (muted), Prateek, ??P34, ??P32 15:01:53 Zakim, what is the passcode? 15:01:53 the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), chimezie 15:02:01 zakim, aabb is me 15:02:02 +dcharbon2; got it 15:02:16 Zakim, ??P32 is Garlik 15:02:16 +Garlik; got it 15:02:24 Garlik has LukeWM, SteveH 15:02:25 +??P19 15:02:31 Zakim, ??p19 is me 15:02:31 +AlexPassant; got it 15:02:31 Zakim, who is on the phone? 15:02:35 zakim, Garlik has LukeWM, SteveH 15:02:35 +LukeWM, SteveH; got it 15:02:43 +Sandro 15:02:49 zakim, who is on the phone 15:02:49 I don't understand 'who is on the phone', LukeWM 15:02:53 + +1.216.444.aahh 15:03:01 Souri has joined #sparql 15:03:04 zakim who is on the phone? 15:03:06 Zakim, 444.aahh is me 15:03:09 sorry, chimezie, I do not recognize a party named '444.aahh' 15:03:14 zakim, dial ivan-voip 15:03:14 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:03:18 Zakim, 1.216.444.aahh is me 15:03:19 ok, ivan; the call is being made 15:03:21 On the phone I see bglimm, dcharbon2, AxelPolleres, OlivierCorby, pgearon, kasei (muted), Prateek, ??P34, Garlik, AlexPassant, Sandro, +1.216.444.aahh 15:03:26 Garlik has LukeWM, SteveH 15:03:30 +Ivan 15:03:36 sorry, chimezie, I do not recognize a party named '1.216.444.aahh' 15:03:38 Zakim, +1.216.444.aahh is me 15:03:42 +chimezie; got it 15:03:48 zakim, mute me 15:03:48 Ivan should now be muted 15:03:52 scribe: Ivan 15:03:55 ??p34 is me 15:03:55 scribenick: ivan 15:04:02 topic: admin issues 15:04:06 Zakim, mute me 15:04:06 chimezie should now be muted 15:04:06 PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-02-09 15:04:17 AxelPolleres: anybody comment? 15:04:18 ... 15:04:19 ... 15:04:21 .. 15:04:22 ... 15:04:26 RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-02-09 15:04:29 once... twice... 15:04:33 zakim, ??P34 is me 15:04:33 +Souri; got it 15:04:35 topic: next meeting 15:04:38 in a week 15:04:48 AxelPolleres: we have to think about f2f agenda 15:04:51 Zakim, mute me 15:04:51 Souri should now be muted 15:04:59 ... i am already discussing with lee 15:05:06 ... main issue is to go towards last call 15:05:20 ... that is also look at the issues list 15:05:29 ... if editors can look at their priorities 15:05:31 topic: comments 15:05:32 topic: comments 15:05:32 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Comments 15:05:59 AxelPolleres: we have all open comments assigned last times 15:06:03 s/times/time/ 15:06:12 ... aggregate is on the agenda for later today 15:06:21 ... anybody has any news to report? 15:06:31 once... twice... ... ... 15:06:41 AxelPolleres: none 15:06:45 topic: liaisons 15:06:54 rdb2rdf, egov, and rif 15:06:58 AxelPolleres: anything to report? 15:07:06 Zakim, mute me 15:07:06 bglimm should now be muted 15:07:16 AxelPolleres: sandro, would you mind to take over the liaison to rif? 15:07:19 sandro: is fine 15:07:36 AxelPolleres: any issues you would be aware of? 15:07:36 zakim, unmute me 15:07:36 Souri should no longer be muted 15:07:37 sandro: none 15:07:45 AxelPolleres: rdb2rdf? 15:08:01 Souri: nothing major, we did two groups now 15:08:14 +??P48 15:08:24 ... we are working on two sets of documents and then on use cases, nothing related to sparql 15:08:27 zakim, mute me 15:08:27 Souri should now be muted 15:08:34 AxelPolleres: SteveH anything for egov? 15:08:50 SteveH: I cannot really see to participate on that group, would be good to have another liaison 15:08:54 sandro: that would be me :-( 15:09:05 AxelPolleres: would you be able to report occasionally? 15:09:12 sandro: I will try... 15:09:34 topic: summary on sd issues 15:09:59 topiv: SD issues 15:10:00 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010JanMar/0245.html 15:10:05 Zakim, unmute me 15:10:05 kasei should no longer be muted 15:10:31 kasei: the recent comment and my response yesterday sums up the state 15:10:39 ... the first thing is the available graph issue 15:10:39 http://kasei.us/2009/09/sparql/sd-example.ttl 15:10:55 kasei: i have been keeping up to date on the comments on that 15:11:09 ... the modeling of the available graphs is in the ??? descriptions 15:11:19 ... I think lee's suggestion is the right way to move forwards 15:11:26 ... modulo the name 15:11:33 ... we would have graph collections 15:11:44 ... resources would bring together all available the graph collection 15:14:02 AxelPolleres: you said a dataset is a subclass of collection 15:14:22 kasei: it remains any number of named graphs, but it also contains a default graph 15:14:38 AxelPolleres: the question was whether we would advertise different datasets? 15:14:55 kasei: we talked about that earlier and we agreed that it would not make sense to define more datasets 15:15:00 AxelPolleres: ok 15:15:06 q? 15:15:34 ack ??P32 15:15:52 ??P32 is us 15:15:57 we shouldn't be on the queue 15:15:58 AxelPolleres: what is the concrete issue on that particular question 15:16:07 ack ??P32 15:16:07 Zakim, ??P32 is Garlik 15:16:08 I already had ??P32 as Garlik, AxelPolleres 15:16:12 kasei: i do not believe there was any open issues on that 15:16:14 ... will check 15:16:23 AxelPolleres: what is next on your list 15:16:27 zakim, ack ??P32 15:16:27 I see no one on the speaker queue 15:16:30 kasei: property functions issue 15:16:37 ... i have heard arguments on both sides 15:16:45 next issue... property functions declarations 15:16:52 ... whether we would support an explicit name property function that a service supports 15:16:58 ... i would be fine including this 15:17:05 ... lee expressed concerns 15:17:16 ... wording would be tricky, there is no spec we can refer to 15:17:30 ... it is legal under sparql but is not discussed anywhere 15:17:45 AxelPolleres: we have not even had this under the elected features 15:17:58 +1 15:18:01 not +1 15:18:03 q+ 15:18:14 kasei: it seems that it exists in the gray area like the default graph being the union of all named graphs, is there and not explicitly discussed in the spec 15:18:29 kasei: i am willing to include it unless somebody objects and modulo a proper wording 15:18:43 SteveH: i would object to it 15:19:01 ... it is bizarre to standardize 15:19:18 ... the example of default graph is explicitly in the spec, so this is not the same 15:19:33 kasei: i am not sure they are all that difference on the level of specing in the documents 15:19:35 some reservations against saying something about property functions... 15:19:54 SteveH: a section in the spec that explicitly does that 15:20:03 ... I forget exactly which 15:20:23 AxelPolleres: we have a dataset description out of our scope, we refer to VoiD 15:20:38 ... would not this a possible candidate for extension like VoiD? 15:20:48 ... although we do not have any external spec 15:20:55 kasei, section 8.1 "RDF data can be combined by the RDF merge [RDF-MT] of graphs. One possible arrangement of graphs in an RDF Dataset is to have the default graph be the RDF merge of some or all of the information in the named graphs." 15:21:06 kasei: the difference that VoiD fits nicely to the way we model things 15:21:35 ... here we would have a property referring to a URI describing the function 15:21:39 ... but we lack the spec 15:22:17 AxelPolleres: there is a difference in how it works, but both have an ontology describing that thing 15:22:37 ... if we have a link describing a dataset, couldn't have a link to something describing the property function 15:22:44 ... i am not 100% sure 15:22:56 kasei: i would be hesitant to merge those two 15:23:41 ... if two datasets are implemented by two services, one having a function and the other not, you do not want to describe that as part of the dataset description, this is an implementation issue 15:24:09 AxelPolleres: you would like to have it, and SteveH does not, we may want to open an issue and solve that at some point 15:24:29 SteveH: it seems very peculiar for a rec on a feature that is not being standardized 15:24:35 ISSUE: Do we need (descriptions of) property functions in SD? Is this in scope for us? 15:24:35 Created ISSUE-54 - Do we need (descriptions of) property functions in SD? Is this in scope for us? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/track/issues/54/edit . 15:24:46 kasei: part of the motivation that one can describe implementations that are convergent 15:24:55 ... many people have this feature and is widely implemented 15:25:14 ... my support for this is very mild at this point 15:25:37 .... lee's suggestion is that it is so widely implemented and it requires very little for our part adding it 15:27:08 SteveH: to be useful we have to standardize the actual function; 15:27:21 kasei: you can do that in the extension functions already 15:28:13 orri: you cannot refer to a standard name that you cannot define 15:28:26 .. it would be very useful if this behaviour did have a name 15:28:43 ... even standardizing what we mean would not ask for lots of space in the document 15:28:48 I'd like to see a description that listed predicates that provide property functions 15:28:50 link to the email? 15:29:12 kasei: we could say that if you see that property function it would act differently 15:29:23 AxelPolleres: any more new insight at this point? 15:29:29 +1 to what kasei said 15:29:30 ... or put it on email 15:29:48 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010JanMar/0316.html 15:30:05 I would be interested in seeing how the current spec can be said to provide a mechanism for this 15:30:09 because I don't see how it would 15:30:22 AxelPolleres: I would suggest that people who care about this responds 15:30:39 AxelPolleres: is there anything else? 15:30:48 having trouble hearing over typing 15:31:16 kasei: the other issues are not controversial just have to be done 15:31:34 still need to talk about issue 43? 15:31:52 AxelPolleres: one more comment, there was one issue on entailment 15:32:01 Zakim, unmute me 15:32:01 bglimm should no longer be muted 15:32:08 ... whether we can different entailment on different graphs 15:32:28 bglimm: ?? wanted to say that one graph uses rdfs and the other one simple, for example 15:32:37 s/??/AndyS 15:32:52 AxelPolleres: that is issue 43, which is still open 15:33:31 zakim, unmute me 15:33:31 Ivan should no longer be muted 15:33:59 zakim, drop me 15:33:59 Ivan is being disconnected 15:34:00 -Ivan 15:34:07 scribenick: kasei 15:34:09 zakim, dial ivan-voip 15:34:09 ok, ivan; the call is being made 15:34:11 +Ivan 15:34:24 scribenick: ivan 15:34:26 ISSUE-43 ... if we need to have different entailments described, we need aproposal 15:34:52 subtopic: powder 15:34:59 greg? 15:35:01 Zakim, mute me 15:35:01 bglimm should now be muted 15:35:04 AxelPolleres: any powder expertise 15:35:25 kasei: this was to see if we can include a way to talk about a collection of graphs 15:35:36 ... and powder might be able to do this 15:35:43 q+ 15:35:49 zakim, mute me 15:35:49 Ivan should now be muted 15:36:03 Zakim, unmute me 15:36:03 chimezie should no longer be muted 15:36:05 could anyone jump in here with help on POWDER? 15:36:08 q? 15:36:08 q- 15:36:14 ack ivan 15:37:40 ivan: if somebody asks the question on that, I am happy to try to answer it 15:37:45 zakim, mute me 15:37:45 Ivan should now be muted 15:38:12 ACTION: greg to get back to ivanh on the usabuility of POWDER for SD. 15:38:12 Created ACTION-189 - Get back to ivanh on the usabuility of POWDER for SD. [on Gregory Williams - due 2010-02-23]. 15:38:35 topic: alternative aggregate design, comment form della valle 15:38:40 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2010Feb/0006.html 15:38:41 s/form/from/ 15:38:54 AxelPolleres: we had an action on SteveH 15:39:06 ... is it too early to discuss it? 15:39:20 SteveH: I do not feel to have a good grasp on what it does 15:39:29 ... it seems to be just syntax 15:39:41 AxelPolleres: i read through it and wrote a mail to the list with open questions 15:39:45 Zakim, mute me 15:39:45 kasei should now be muted 15:39:48 ... mostly clarification questions 15:40:02 ... i would like to get back to to emmanuele 15:40:10 ... in general there are merits in the proposal 15:40:30 ... the main benefit seems to be that it allows to define several aggregates on the same solution set in parallel 15:40:35 ... i am not sure we can do that 15:40:48 AxelPolleres: we would need to have several subqueries 15:41:02 SteveH: you cannot have different groupings on aggregate functions 15:41:09 ... in the current syntax 15:41:29 AxelPolleres: he had an example where he can do something more concise than we cat 15:41:45 orri: sql has a model with different grouping for aggregates 15:42:04 AxelPolleres: orri, could you look at that mail as well to see how this is addressed 15:42:33 orri: on the sql side we can do this rollup side, and it would be quite possible to take the sql semantics to sparql 15:42:39 AxelPolleres: is it in our scope 15:42:49 SteveH: it is in our scope, i am not sure about the syntax 15:43:01 ... you have to know a lot to understand what is happening 15:43:17 ... in its current form it is not very tempting 15:43:30 AxelPolleres: it would be interesting to see how it is done in sql 15:43:43 ... Orri, can you get back on that? 15:43:50 Orri: I will look at up 15:43:58 s/at/it/ 15:44:06 ACTION: Orri to send some comment to the list how multiple groupings at once work in SQL 15:44:06 Created ACTION-190 - Send some comment to the list how multiple groupings at once work in SQL [on Orri Erling - due 2010-02-23]. 15:44:37 AxelPolleres: in the meantime, if there are no objections, i will get back to emmanuelle for clarification questions though that would not be the official answer 15:45:12 -AlexPassant 15:45:32 topic: test cases 15:45:35 topic: test cases 15:45:50 AxelPolleres: there is some wiki page 15:45:55 ... not too much at the moment 15:46:24 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/index.php?title=Category:Testing&action=edit 15:46:30 +??P1 15:46:33 Zakim, ??p1 is me 15:46:33 +AlexPassant; got it 15:46:38 AxelPolleres: the main point is to define test cases 15:46:57 ... the mail of emmanuelle brings in some interesting test cases 15:47:08 ... the question is who would do it, what is the way to proceed 15:47:13 ... we have some in the spec? 15:47:15 ... opinions? 15:47:33 q? 15:47:35 AxelPolleres: any experience how the test cases were elaborated in the last group? 15:47:51 (more enthusiasm required!!!) 15:47:57 Lee would be the best person to do that 15:48:19 AxelPolleres: we can pick some victims to extract the test cases in the form of examples 15:48:28 ... and elaborate the test cases 15:48:40 ... we could do that for query, update, etc 15:48:51 ... what we need is basically volounteers 15:49:09 (Axel desperately trying to generate enthusiasm...) 15:49:47 AxelPolleres: if nobody comes forward I can make some starting points and pick victims 15:49:54 ... if nothing else works 15:50:16 (everybody ducks...) 15:51:18 AxelPolleres: if I look at the features than we have aggregate functions, update, service descriptions, and of course entailment and property paths 15:51:35 ... and query 15:51:43 * Query language expressivity 15:51:43 o Aggregate functions 15:51:43 o Subqueries 15:51:43 o Negation 15:51:44 o Project expressions 15:51:44 * Update 15:51:46 * Service description 15:51:49 Entailment RDFS 15:51:55 Entailment OWL 15:52:00 PropertyPaths 15:52:05 ... it would be a good starting point 15:52:24 AxelPolleres: any volounteers for queries and aggregate functions? 15:52:32 ... I might go ahead I might do this 15:52:36 :-( 15:52:45 ACTION: Axel to collect test cases for aggegate functions 15:52:45 Created ACTION-191 - Collect test cases for aggegate functions [on Axel Polleres - due 2010-02-23]. 15:52:52 I volunteer for subqueries 15:53:05 I am ok 2 15:53:32 ACTION: David to collect testcases for subqueries 15:53:32 Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - David 15:53:32 Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. dcharbon2, dnewman2) 15:53:54 action: dcharbon2 to collect test cases for subqueries 15:53:54 Created ACTION-192 - Collect test cases for subqueries [on David Charboneau - due 2010-02-23]. 15:53:56 ACTION: Olivier to collect testcases for subqueries 15:53:56 Created ACTION-193 - Collect testcases for subqueries [on Olivier Corby - due 2010-02-23]. 15:54:52 ACTION: chime to collect testcases for negation 15:54:52 Created ACTION-194 - Collect testcases for negation [on Chimezie Ogbuji - due 2010-02-23]. 15:55:28 ACTION: Olivier to collect test cases for Project Expressions. 15:55:28 Created ACTION-195 - Collect test cases for Project Expressions. [on Olivier Corby - due 2010-02-23]. 15:55:37 ACTION: Axel to collect test cases for Project Expressions. 15:55:37 Created ACTION-196 - Collect test cases for Project Expressions. [on Axel Polleres - due 2010-02-23]. 15:55:56 q+ 15:56:37 SteveH: the format does not work for update 15:56:47 +q 15:56:49 AxelPolleres: so that has to be updated for update indeed 15:56:52 Update... we probably need some format extension for update. 15:56:53 ack SteveH 15:56:57 ack pgearon 15:57:17 pgearon: i can work to redraft the framework for that 15:57:57 ... test cases for update absolutely needs adaption 15:58:11 ... i can work with somebody to ensure that it would be all right 15:58:33 ACTION: Paul to get back to Andy to work on how to adapt the test cases format for update. 15:58:33 Created ACTION-197 - Get back to Andy to work on how to adapt the test cases format for update. [on Paul Gearon - due 2010-02-23]. 15:59:30 ok for property path 15:59:49 ACTION: Olivier to collect test cases for property paths 15:59:50 Created ACTION-198 - Collect test cases for property paths [on Olivier Corby - due 2010-02-23]. 15:59:55 (AxelPolleres has succeeded in creating enthusiasm!!! Kudos:-) 16:00:04 Zakim, unmute me 16:00:04 bglimm should no longer be muted 16:00:09 Top of the hour, gotta go. 16:00:17 -Sandro 16:00:31 ACTION: Birte to collect test cases for entailment 16:00:31 Created ACTION-199 - Collect test cases for entailment [on Birte Glimm - due 2010-02-23]. 16:00:47 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:00:47 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/16-sparql-minutes.html ivan 16:00:52 bye 16:00:53 Bye. 16:00:54 Axel: can you close action 176 for me? 16:00:55 -Garlik 16:00:56 -??P48 16:00:56 -chimezie 16:00:57 adjourned 16:00:57 -AlexPassant 16:00:58 -Prateek 16:00:59 -pgearon 16:01:02 greg, sure. 16:01:07 -kasei 16:01:08 -OlivierCorby 16:01:09 zakim, drop me 16:01:09 Ivan is being disconnected 16:01:09 -Ivan 16:01:19 -dcharbon2 16:01:34 -Souri 16:01:48