14:00:28 RRSAgent has joined #wam 14:00:28 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/02/11-wam-irc 14:00:30 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:00:32 Zakim, this will be DOM3 14:00:33 Meeting: Web Applications Working Group Teleconference 14:00:33 Date: 11 February 2010 14:00:39 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 14:00:55 zakim, this will be webapps 14:00:55 ok, Steven; I see IA_WebApps(Widgets)9:00AM scheduled to start now 14:01:14 ScribeNick: ArtB 14:01:16 Scribe: Art 14:01:18 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2010JanMar/0532.html 14:01:19 Chair: Art 14:01:21 Meeting: Widgets Voice Conference 14:01:23 Date: 11 February 2010 14:01:24 Regrets: Stephen_Jolly, David_Rogers, Marcin_Hanclik 14:01:26 RRSAgent, make log public 14:01:44 rrsagent, make minutes 14:01:44 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/11-wam-minutes.html ArtB 14:01:59 IA_WebApps(Widgets)9:00AM has now started 14:02:04 +Bryan_Sullivan 14:02:06 +Art_Barstow 14:02:09 zakim, dial steven-617 14:02:09 ok, Steven; the call is being made 14:02:10 +Steven 14:02:21 fjh has joined #wam 14:02:24 +??P2 14:02:25 zakim, mute me 14:02:26 Steven should now be muted 14:02:38 Zakim, ??P2 is me 14:02:38 +darobin; got it 14:02:52 Present: Art, Robin, Bryan, StevenP 14:03:44 + +1.479.524.aaaa 14:04:02 Zakim, 1.479.524.aaaa is me 14:04:02 sorry, Marcos, I do not recognize a party named '1.479.524.aaaa' 14:04:17 Present+ Marcos 14:04:25 member:Zakim, +1.479.524.aaaa is me 14:04:26 Meeting: Widgets Voice Conference 14:04:30 bah 14:04:47 Topic: Review and tweak agenda 14:04:48 zakim, +1.479.524.aaaa is me 14:04:48 +Marcos; got it 14:04:54 AB: yesterday I sent out the draft agenda for this meeting ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2010JanMar/0532.html ). Are there any change requests? 14:05:06 AB: we will add MPEG-U discussion to AOB ( http://mpeg.chiariglione.org/working_documents/mpeg-u/pt1.zip ) 14:05:22 AB: we will drop 5.a discuss Action-490 ( http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/490 ) since I hoping to get to it before this meeting but did not and thus have nothing to report. 14:05:47 AB: any agenda change requests? 14:05:49 [ no ] 14:05:55 Topic: Announcements 14:06:02 AB: two normative refs in Widgets DigSig to XML Signatures specs entered LCWD on Feb 4 ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2010JanMar/0531.html ). Any other short announcements? 14:06:54 Topic: P&C spec: Important Test Suite Updates 14:07:05 AB: last week Marcos mentioned he would add a new test case to the P&C test suite. He has done that ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2010JanMar/0485.html ). Thanks Marcos! What is the status of people running this new test? 14:08:04 MC: it has been run by Aplix, BONDI, Wookie have all run this new test and passed it 14:08:30 AB: wrt the P&C Interop Report, are we back to 3 impls that pass 100% of the test suite? 14:08:35 MC: yes, that is correct 14:09:02 Topic: P&C spec: Action-486: Create ITS test case(s) for the P&C test suite 14:09:15 AB: Marcos, what is the status of the P&C ITS testing and Action-486 ( http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/actions/486 )? 14:09:27 MC: I haven't done that yet 14:09:49 AB: do you need some help wrt coordinating with the I18N WG? 14:10:00 MC: no, I just need to create the test or tests 14:10:16 ... it's not that much work 14:10:28 ... I don't think it should block us from going to PR 14:11:15 AB: I agree but we know the Director has indicated he would like to see that test 14:11:50 AB: do you need an impl of ITS to test the tests? 14:11:56 MC: yes, that is correct 14:12:30 ... I am not aware of any impl that will support it 14:12:35 ... it is indeed optional 14:12:50 ack me 14:13:29 AB: would like SP to help us with the process here 14:13:46 SP: if it is optional then there should be at least one impl 14:13:57 ... with something like this, not sure what to suggest 14:14:15 ... to go to REC with an unimplemented feature would mean the feature is at risk 14:14:34 AB: but what about going to PR? 14:14:52 SP: should try to find something that can do something with the test 14:15:21 ACTION: barstow work with MC and the Team to determine how to test the P&C ITS test(s) 14:15:22 Created ACTION-491 - Work with MC and the Team to determine how to test the P&C ITS test(s) [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-02-18]. 14:15:56 SP: input mode on XHTML Basic, we did find an internal impl we could use 14:16:07 ... without revealing confidential info 14:16:22 ... [so there is a precedence that could be followed] 14:16:44 MC: could it be placed in Widgeon Robin? 14:16:50 RB: if you want to do so :-) 14:16:57 MC: just need to insert the right unicodes 14:17:11 RB: agree it could be done but I don't have the bandwidth to do it 14:17:22 ... it is OSS so anyone can do the impl 14:17:30 SP: I think that would be fine 14:17:41 RB: agree it would take care of the process 14:17:50 ... not sure though about how useful it is 14:18:39 SP: may not have one complete impl for PR but all features must be implemented by some set of the impls 14:18:53 ... need to show it is implementable, not necessarily implemented 14:19:02 RB: we have tighter constraints 14:19:18 MC: we said all MUST assertions must have tests 14:19:33 ... support for ITS is Not Mandatory 14:19:42 ... it wouldn't harm the spec if it was removed 14:19:50 + +47.23.69.aabb 14:20:01 Present+ Arve 14:20:04 zakim, aabb is arve/marcos 14:20:04 +arve/marcos; got it 14:20:53 zakim, who is muted? 14:20:53 I see no one muted 14:21:06 AB: to wrap up, I have Action-491 and I'd like to be in a position next week during our call to deteremine if we have consensus to move P&C spec to PR 14:21:07 zakim, wh is muted? 14:21:07 sorry, Steven, I do not understand your question 14:21:15 zakim, who is muted? 14:21:15 I see Steven muted 14:21:31 AB: anything else on P&C for today? 14:21:47 -Marcos 14:21:58 Topic: Widget Interface spec: openURL() security considerations 14:22:06 AB: earlier this week Marcos proposed some security considerations text ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2010JanMar/0501.html ) for the openURL method. 14:22:32 MC: we proposed some text 14:22:43 ... Anne raised some good issues 14:22:58 ... want to wait for additional feedback 14:23:12 ... would be good to hear from TLR 14:23:26 s/Anne/Adam 14:23:54 AB: other than chasing down Adam, et al., is there anything else you need from the group? 14:24:13 MC: no, that's it 14:24:39 AB: the idea is to create non-normative guidelines? 14:25:03 MC: yes but there is a question about if the file:// URI should not be used 14:25:39 AB: would that change require us to go back to LC? 14:25:52 MC: not sure; want to make this non-normative 14:26:12 ... a UA may want to support file:// URI 14:26:19 ... we can't keep an impl from doing that 14:26:34 AB: any other feedback for MC on this? 14:26:53 AB: I'd like to see this added as non-normative text 14:26:56 MC: I agree 14:27:32 Topic: Widget Interface spec: general comments by Cyril Concolato 14:27:47 AB: Cyrll posted some general comments about the TWI spec ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2010JanMar/0479.html ). There were quite a few follow-ups. Where do we stand on these comments? 14:28:15 AB: will addressing any of these comments require the TWI spec to go back to LC? 14:28:41 MC: I don't think any of these comments affect normative text 14:28:48 ... I consider them clarifications 14:29:17 ... it does expose the window object issue 14:29:50 AB: I think he raised that in a separate thread 14:30:05 MC: yes, but it's in thread 0479 too 14:30:26 AB: here is the other thread by Cyril: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2010JanMar/0476.htm 14:30:32 Cyril said "* What happens to the "storage" event fired by the setItem or removeItem methods when the UA does not implement the window object ?" 14:31:20 AB: do any of the non window object changes affect normative text? 14:31:28 MC: no; the others are all clarifications 14:31:47 AB: does anyone disagree with MC's characterization 14:32:15 Topic: Widget Interface spec: window object comments by Cyril Concolato 14:32:21 AB: Cyril also submitted some comments about the window object ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2010JanMar/0476.html ). 14:32:50 MC: the issue is the dependency on HTML5's window object 14:33:10 ... we use the browsing context as defined in HTML5 14:33:25 ... this does create a problem for non HTML languages 14:33:51 ... I don't think this means much wrt normative text for TWI spec 14:34:12 ... could say if you implement HTML5 then put Widget object on the Window 14:34:48 AB: does anyone have concerns about this? 14:35:10 RB: I'm not convinced we need to change anything 14:35:30 ... we can talk about global object but that could create problems for other impls 14:35:41 ... I think what we have is good enough 14:35:59 MC: I think we should just leave it as is 14:36:25 AB: I agree with Robin's concern about a global Widget object 14:36:35 AB: any other comments on this? 14:37:19 AB: does it appear Cyril is OK with what you and RB are saying MC? 14:37:48 MC: yes; he acknowledged that what we said was correct (we pointed out some info he had not seen) 14:38:17 AB: proposed resolution is: the window object as currently specified in the TWI CR is OK as is 14:38:27 AB: any objections to that proposed resolution? 14:38:31 [ None ] 14:38:41 RESOLUTION: the window object as currently specified in the TWI CR is OK as is 14:39:23 Topic: TWI spec: test suite 14:39:33 AB: is the TWI test suite still incomplete? 14:39:38 MC: yes, that's correct 14:39:52 ... I need to get together with Dom after he returns next week 14:40:03 ... If anyone can help with the Web IDL, please let me know 14:40:24 RB: I can take a look but I recommend you ask Dom first 14:40:30 ... I think it is correct 14:40:50 MC: I think what Dom proposed makes sense 14:41:06 ... but there are problems with the automatically generated tests the Dom created 14:41:21 ... that is the only real blocker at the moment 14:41:35 ... some implementors are already running the test suite 14:41:48 ... Wookie has been reporting some results and Opera too 14:42:07 AB: how does the report process work? 14:42:27 MC: an implementor creates and maintains their own XML file 14:42:42 ... of the test results 14:43:00 ... we are not verifying results 14:43:23 AB: do people drop their test results in CVS or email them to you? 14:43:38 MC: preferably the implementors just put their results in CVS 14:43:51 AB: anything else on the TWI spec for today? 14:44:04 Topic: AOB: charter renewal 14:44:18 AB: Doug sent out a call for comments on WebApps charter renewal ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2010JanMar/0493.html ). Scott Wilson requested some new deliverables ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2010JanMar/0525.html ). 14:44:39 AB: I think the #1 priority for the new charter is completing the work we already have in progress. 14:45:07 q+ 14:45:34 +Shepazu 14:45:44 Present+ Doug 14:46:12 ack me 14:46:32 SP: I don't have any comments on the charter yet 14:46:39 http://www.w3.org/2006/02/chartergen?chairs=Charles+McCathieNevile%2C+Arthur+Barstow&tc=Doug+Schepers%2C+Steven+Pemberton&oldcharteruri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2009%2F04%2Fwebapps-charter.html&end-day=30&end-month=March&end-year=2012&fte=30&confidential=public&patpol=w3c&mtgtel=1&mtgftf=1&makefromold=Generate+charter+from+existing+data 14:46:41 ... the copyright is incorrect 14:47:18 DS: thanks for that pointer 14:47:34 ... we wanted to re-use as much of the existing charter as possible 14:47:54 ... I will look at that output 14:48:31 ... we will include a pointer to our publication status: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/wiki/PubStatus 14:49:07 AB: I prefer a pointer to a living document 14:49:21 SP: the charter should include a pointer to that pub status page 14:49:24 AB: yes, it does 14:49:40 DS: Art, I have now included the change you proposed 14:51:06 ... I expect to get management review next week so a formal AC review could happen late next week 14:55:32 DS: what new widget delieverables do we want? 14:55:44 AB: Scott Wilson proposed a few things 14:55:51 +1 14:55:58 ... the Social APIs need more info 14:56:19 ... there is also a widget intercommunciation proposal 14:56:49 ... some have said that should leverage HTML5's mechanisms as much as possible and I agree with that 14:57:10 DS: if we want to add any new work, we should make it explicit 14:57:38 Arve: I don't think we want a widget-specific spec for communication, we want a Web communcation spec 14:57:46 DS: so a "Web messaging" spec? 14:57:58 Arve: yes, something like that addresses discovery 14:58:22 ... don't know where we will end up e.g. one spec versus two and scope 14:58:30 ... we should probably start with use cases 14:58:47 ... need messaging to signal between windows for example 14:59:09 ... not sure postMessage will be the best way to solve it 14:59:42 http://www.w3.org/2010/webapps/charter/Overview.html 15:00:24 viper23 has joined #wam 15:00:35 [ Doug reads related text he has added to the draft charter http://www.w3.org/2010/webapps/charter/Overview.html ] 15:01:25 DS: I think we should have an explicit deliverable 15:01:30 Arve: yes, agree 15:01:47 Arve: there may be some relationship between notifications and messaging 15:02:33 ... we can also consider widgets embedded on a web page e.g. Google gadget 15:05:59 DS: think this format can be used by other apps e.g. flash 15:06:26 DS: it is very common for designers to need to send a file with all its resources, this would be very useful for that 15:06:42 DS: I can add messaging and discover 15:06:52 s/discover/discovery/ 15:07:16 ... and that will take care of Scott's #1 point 15:07:34 ... re point #2 from Scott, I think that's a reasonable use case 15:08:23 ... re pioont #3 and Social api, not sure 15:08:41 Arve: I'd like to see some use case about the Social API 15:09:12 MC: there is some related work onging in one of the XGs 15:09:52 s/pioont/point/ 15:10:33 Arve: I don't think we can add something like Social API without more information 15:10:39 AB: I agree with Arve 15:11:11 ACTION: wilson submit some use case information about Social API proposal for widgets 15:11:11 Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - wilson 15:11:11 Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ChrisWilson, swilson3, awilson2) 15:11:24 ACTION: scott submit some use case information about Social API proposal for widgets 15:11:25 Created ACTION-492 - Submit some use case information about Social API proposal for widgets [on Scott Wilson - due 2010-02-18]. 15:12:52 AB: I think we given Doug sufficient info for points #1 and #2 15:14:42 DS: not sure I have wording about the embedding proposal 15:14:50 ... but I will work on some wording 15:15:16 AB: anything else on charter? 15:16:13 MC: in the scope of the charter, should say something about packaged client-side applications 15:16:18 ... perhaps i.e. widgets 15:16:38 ... make it very clear that widgets are in scope 15:17:09 [ Doug reads latest related text form the scope ] 15:17:15 MC: that's good enough 15:17:37 [[Widgets Embedding:: a mechanism to allow server-side deployment of packaged client-side applications, within a Web page or as standalone content.]] 15:18:34 +1 to Marcos 15:18:48 [Widgets Embedding: A mechanism to allow deployment and embedding of packaged widgets in web applications, within a web page or as stand-alone content] 15:18:50 MC: not sure about "deployment" here 15:20:39 DS: perhaps I should remove stand-alone content 15:20:42 Arve: yes 15:22:22 [ DS reads updated proposed text ... ; positive nods from attendees ... ] 15:23:21 AB: thanks Doug! 15:23:38 +1 thanks 15:23:40 Topic: AOB: ISO's MPEG-U and Widgets 15:23:50 AB: ISO' MPEG-U group is "embracing and extending" our widget specs e.g. see: ( http://mpeg.chiariglione.org/working_documents/mpeg-u/pt1.zip ). 15:25:01 AB: without Cyril here, not sure we should have this discussion today? 15:25:19 AB: has anyone there spec? 15:25:24 [ No ] 15:25:53 ACTION: barstow invite Cyril to our widget call on 18-Feb-2010 to talk about MPEG-U and widgets 15:25:53 Created ACTION-493 - Invite Cyril to our widget call on 18-Feb-2010 to talk about MPEG-U and widgets [on Arthur Barstow - due 2010-02-18]. 15:26:46 DS: I skimmed it 15:26:52 RB: I skimmed it too 15:27:00 ... some parts are concerning 15:27:41 DS: I propose we send an immediate response and will respond with details later 15:28:02 ... think they want to finish their work in April 15:28:25 ... I think some of their work will conflict with our widget messaging work 15:29:42 AB: how about we invite Cyril to next call and use that as a way to explain our concerns 15:29:52 ... that would give everyone 1 week to review their doc 15:29:54 DS: OK 15:29:56 RB: OK 15:30:03 AB: then that's what we'll do 15:30:16 AB: anything else on this topic? 15:30:20 ... anyhting else for today? 15:30:51 AB: meeting adjourned; next meeting is Feb 18 15:31:07 s/anyhting/anything/ 15:31:08 -Bryan_Sullivan 15:31:11 -Art_Barstow 15:31:14 -darobin 15:31:15 -Steven 15:31:15 RRSAgent, make minutes 15:31:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/11-wam-minutes.html ArtB 15:31:25 arve has left #wam 15:31:27 heh, I don't know if he heard 15:31:28 -Shepazu 15:32:43 darobin is the walrus, kookoo-kachoo! 15:36:29 disconnecting the lone participant, arve/marcos, in IA_WebApps(Widgets)9:00AM 15:36:29 zakim, bye 15:36:29 Zakim has left #wam 15:36:33 IA_WebApps(Widgets)9:00AM has ended 15:36:34 Attendees were Bryan_Sullivan, Art_Barstow, Steven, darobin, Marcos, +47.23.69.aabb, arve/marcos, Shepazu 15:37:06 rrsagent, bye 15:37:06 I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/11-wam-actions.rdf : 15:37:06 ACTION: barstow work with MC and the Team to determine how to test the P&C ITS test(s) [1] 15:37:06 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/11-wam-irc#T14-15-21 15:37:06 ACTION: wilson submit some use case information about Social API proposal for widgets [2] 15:37:06 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/11-wam-irc#T15-11-11 15:37:06 ACTION: scott submit some use case information about Social API proposal for widgets [3] 15:37:06 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/11-wam-irc#T15-11-24 15:37:06 ACTION: barstow invite Cyril to our widget call on 18-Feb-2010 to talk about MPEG-U and widgets [4] 15:37:06 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/11-wam-irc#T15-25-53