See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 11 February 2010
<kford> Who si going to scribe today? I can if there isn't someone else.
<kford> scribe: Kelly
<kford> JAllan: We have to have a resolution in the minutes that says we agree to publish for a first working draft.
<kford> Jeanne: Best solution is to wait until after F2F. Publish in March and promote last draft before working call.
<kford> Jeanne: How to people feel about this?
<kford> JAllan: Any objections to publishing first working draft to implamentation document in March?
<kford> JAllan: No objections.
<jeanne> RESOLUTION: Publish the Implementing UAAG 2.0 as a First Public Working Draft.
<kford> SH: I was silent on the call but as people were discussing things it came to my mind that were were talking about items that were very specific to certain disabilities.
<kford> SH: I'm concerned for example how people could be successful with some of our guidelines and addressing the needs for people with cognitive disabilities.
<kford> SH: I'm thinking we need to find ways to make user agents open themselves up more for intermediary agents to do some sort of translation.
<kford> SH: I've sent some of my responses and such to the list where we've been discussing this.
<kford> SH summarizes his e-mail.
<AllanJ> KF: to what extent insuring that UA has good programatic access would address your concerns...
<AllanJ> ... so that a UA could write to provide this
<AllanJ> SH: GL2 covers a lot
<AllanJ> ... we have presumptions, menuing commands are in text and can be read
<AllanJ> ... how does that help folks with cognitive problems who may need pictograms, or signlanguage
<AllanJ> ... english is a second language for most sign language speakers
<AllanJ> ... if taken to extremes, no UA could not meet all level A
<AllanJ> ... need some mechanism for extensions, external agents, etc. to provide transformation of content and UI
<kford> GL: You raised a lot of good issues.
<kford> GL: I think we should take on SC and go through it as an example.
<kford> GL: Saying something must be perceivable versus presented as visual text.
<kford> GL: I agree that assistive technology coompat is important but I don't think it is enough.
<kford> GL: For example a browser with no keyb9oard access saying you could use voice input for anything you wanted to do with the keyboard isn't enough. This wouldn't be accessible.
<kford> SH: Would a browser on the Macintosh that obtained keyboard access only when you turned on the OS accessibility pass our guidelines?
<AllanJ> GL: keyboards even when referenced are assumed to include emulators.
<kford> /me testing
<AllanJ> ... everything even pads are doing keyboard emulation even with gestures
<AllanJ> SH: keyboard access means keyboard emulation by some other mechanism.
<kford> SH: We've mixed our terms. We say you should provide keyboard access but what we mean is really that something
<kford> SH: that allows for some sort of intermediate control.
<AllanJ> KF: not following this.
<AllanJ> SH: keyboard access = speech or switch to emulate the keyboard, but its the same as API
<AllanJ> KF: where are we making this connection
<kford> JA: What I'm hearing you say is that when we say keyboard, the brwoser doesn't provide a keyboard so this already comes from the operating system.
<kford> JA: I think you may be going way too far down the chain.
<kford> SH: I'm not saying this at all. I'm saying we are saying that you can control by the keyboard, or some other mechanism or emulation.
<kford> Much discussion on this topic.
<Greg> Greg: Principles and Guidelines are supposed to be broad, vague, and subjective. We don't require conformance with them. Rather, a UA that wants certification for a certain level needs to comply with specific Success Criteria, which ARE supposed to be specific, objective, measurable, and narrow in scope.
<kford> GL: Simon, you are suggesting that there are additional items we should promote/recommend.
<kford> SH: I think this is difficult for us because we don't have someone who does this sort of work is an expert.
<kford> KP: If you have a universal control, any9one who wants to provide pictures for example could connect to this.
<AllanJ> SH: GL 5 says nothing about how to make the UI understandable to someone with a cognitive disability
<AllanJ> ... how is the UI unterstandable if the UI does no include pictograms
<kford> GL: We need to be including items that have two UA already providing this.
<kford> SH: What I'd like to do is go through the UA guidelines and see how they match or support accessibility in the different kinds of commonly understood disabilities.
<kford> ACTION: SH to review UAAG for how it supports commonly known disabilities. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/11-ua-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - SH
<trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. sharper, shayes)
<kford> ACTION: sharper to review UAAG for how it supports various disabilities. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/11-ua-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-283 - Review UAAG for how it supports various disabilities. [on Simon Harper - due 2010-02-18].
<Greg> From ISO 9241-141:
<Greg> 9.3 Keyboard input
<Greg> 9.3.1 General
<Greg> Although the provisions of this subclause refer to keyboard input, the source of such input can be a variety of software and hardware alternative input devices.
<Greg> In this section, “keyboard” should be interpreted as referencing a logical device rather than a physical keyboard.
<kford> Group now talking about JA action 282.
<kford> JA recaps mail discussion.
<kford> JA: I tried going into HTML 5 also. Think about this and review.
<kford> JA: Some things I didn't include because they seem like top level elements. My assumption is that they show in the DOM.
<kford> The unique one is the detail and summary elements in HTML 5.
<AllanJ> from greg: a) raw HTML associated with an element or range,
<AllanJ> b) filename associated with an IMG,
<AllanJ> c) title attribute for any element
<jeanne> ACTION: Jeanne to add the list of alternative content to Implementing section 3. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/11-ua-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-284 - Add the list of alternative content to Implementing section 3. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-02-18].
<kford> JA: How should we deal with microformats?
<kford> JA: there is some talk in HTML 5 about these?
<AllanJ> GL: what about WAI-ROLE and STATE info might be alternative content
<kford> group talking further about alternative contents.
<kford> Various add-ons and ways UA expose this.
<jeanne> ACTION: jeanne to add role and state to the list on action-284 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/11-ua-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-285 - Add role and state to the list on action-284 [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-02-18].
<kford> JA: Any objections to this going to our docs?
<kford> JA: this would be under GL 3.11.
<jeanne> jeanne to add email use case to section 3.1.1-2 from the email /2010JanMar/0055.html
<kford> /me Jeanne would you able to close things up today? I have a situation brewing here.
<kford> Group talking further about where and how to locate this text.
<kford> JA: I thought noframes and noscript might fall into this.
<jeanne> scribe: jeanne
Kim: I generally like more information
Kelly: what is the harm?
<kford> /me Apologies but I am going to have to leave.
Greg: this may require more of the user agent. Since it is level AA, it should be alright. I don't want to make it lvl A and require it of everyone.
<AllanJ> scribe: allanJ
discussion of no-script and no-frame as alternative content
GL: need to consider development time and effort
<scribe> ACTION: jallan to create use case for no-script etc. for implementation doc [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/11-ua-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-286 - Create use case for no-script etc. for implementation doc [on Jim Allan - due 2010-02-18].
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