IRC log of ua on 2010-02-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:45:55 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:45:55 [RRSAgent]
logging to
17:45:57 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:45:57 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
17:45:59 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
17:45:59 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 15 minutes
17:46:00 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
17:46:00 [trackbot]
Date: 11 February 2010
17:51:16 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ Discuss "I'm Worried"
17:51:18 [AllanJ]
17:51:20 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ 3.1 wrap-up
17:51:21 [AllanJ]
Agenda+ 4.9 brainstorming
17:53:24 [AllanJ]
regrets: Mark_H, Patrick_L, Jan_R
17:58:19 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
17:58:51 [sharper]
zakim, coe?
17:58:51 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, sharper.
17:59:05 [sharper]
zakim, code?
17:59:05 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), sharper
17:59:05 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
18:00:18 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
18:00:25 [Zakim]
+ +1.512.206.aaaa
18:00:26 [Zakim]
18:00:56 [jeanne]
zakim, +1.512 is really AllanJ
18:00:56 [Zakim]
+AllanJ; got it
18:01:06 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.895.aabb
18:01:37 [Greg]
Zakim, this is me
18:01:37 [Zakim]
Greg, I see SwapMe in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be me".
18:01:50 [Greg]
Zakim, this will be me
18:01:50 [Zakim]
ok, Greg; I see SwapMe
18:02:02 [kford]
kford has joined #ua
18:02:10 [AllanJ]
zakim, aabb is really Greg
18:02:10 [Zakim]
sorry, AllanJ, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
18:02:20 [kford]
zakim, code
18:02:20 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'code', kford
18:02:21 [AllanJ]
zakim, who is here
18:02:22 [Zakim]
AllanJ, you need to end that query with '?'
18:02:34 [kford]
zakim, code?
18:02:34 [Zakim]
the conference code is 66542 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), kford
18:03:45 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here?
18:03:45 [Zakim]
I notice WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has restarted
18:03:46 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jeanne, AllanJ, +1.425.895.aabb, [Microsoft], ??P15
18:03:48 [Zakim]
On IRC I see kford, Greg, sharper, Zakim, RRSAgent, AllanJ, jeanne, trackbot
18:03:48 [AllanJ]
zakim, who is here?
18:03:48 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jeanne, AllanJ, +1.425.895.aabb, [Microsoft], ??P15
18:03:52 [Zakim]
On IRC I see kford, Greg, sharper, Zakim, RRSAgent, AllanJ, jeanne, trackbot
18:03:56 [sharper]
zakim, ??P15 is sharper
18:03:58 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
18:04:16 [AllanJ]
zakim, aabb is really Greg
18:04:16 [Zakim]
+Greg; got it
18:05:20 [AllanJ]
zakim, Microsoft is really Kford
18:05:20 [Zakim]
+Kford; got it
18:05:58 [AllanJ]
agenda+ resolution for publishing working draft
18:06:48 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.325.aacc
18:07:14 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
18:07:20 [AllanJ]
zakim, aacc is really KimPatch
18:07:20 [Zakim]
+KimPatch; got it
18:08:23 [kford]
Who si going to scribe today? I can if there isn't someone else.
18:09:02 [AllanJ]
zakim, agenda
18:09:02 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'agenda', AllanJ
18:09:03 [kford]
scribe: Kelly
18:09:16 [AllanJ]
zakim, agenda?
18:09:16 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
18:09:18 [Zakim]
1. Discuss "I'm Worried" [from AllanJ]
18:09:19 [Zakim]
2. 3.1 wrap-up [from AllanJ]
18:09:19 [Zakim]
3. 4.9 brainstorming [from AllanJ]
18:09:20 [Zakim]
4. resolution for publishing working draft [from AllanJ]
18:09:22 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:09:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kford
18:10:20 [kford]
zakim, take up item 4
18:10:20 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "resolution for publishing working draft" taken up [from AllanJ]
18:10:58 [kford]
JAllan: We have to have a resolution in the minutes that says we agree to publish for a first working draft.
18:11:45 [kford]
Jeanne: Best solution is to wait until after F2F. Publish in March and promote last draft before working call.
18:11:59 [kford]
Jeanne: How to people feel about this?
18:12:27 [kford]
JAllan: Any objections to publishing first working draft to implamentation document in March?
18:12:44 [kford]
JAllan: No objections.
18:13:09 [jeanne]
RESOLUTION: Publish the Implementing UAAG 2.0 as a First Public Working Draft.
18:13:43 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:13:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kford
18:13:56 [kford]
zakim, close item 4
18:13:56 [Zakim]
agendum 4, resolution for publishing working draft, closed
18:13:57 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:13:58 [Zakim]
1. Discuss "I'm Worried" [from AllanJ]
18:14:04 [kford]
zakim, take up item 1
18:14:04 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Discuss "I'm Worried"" taken up [from AllanJ]
18:14:23 [AllanJ]
18:15:29 [kford]
SH: I was silent on the call but as people were discussing things it came to my mind that were were talking about items that were very specific to certain disabilities.
18:16:53 [kford]
SH: I'm concerned for example how people could be successful with some of our guidelines and addressing the needs for people with cognitive disabilities.
18:17:50 [kford]
SH: I'm thinking we need to find ways to make user agents open themselves up more for intermediary agents to do some sort of translation.
18:18:53 [kford]
SH: I've sent some of my responses and such to the list where we've been discussing this.
18:20:09 [kford]
SH summarizes his e-mail.
18:22:30 [AllanJ]
KF: to what extent insuring that UA has good programatic access would address your concerns...
18:22:49 [AllanJ]
... so that a UA could write to provide this
18:23:07 [AllanJ]
SH: GL2 covers a lot
18:23:31 [AllanJ]
... we have presumptions, menuing commands are in text and can be read
18:24:16 [AllanJ]
... how does that help folks with cognitive problems who may need pictograms, or signlanguage
18:24:55 [AllanJ]
... english is a second language for most sign language speakers
18:25:24 [AllanJ]
... if taken to extremes, no UA could not meet all level A
18:26:49 [AllanJ]
... need some mechanism for extensions, external agents, etc. to provide transformation of content and UI
18:26:54 [kford]
GL: You raised a lot of good issues.
18:27:11 [kford]
GL: I think we should take on SC and go through it as an example.
18:27:41 [kford]
GL: Saying something must be perceivable versus presented as visual text.
18:28:20 [kford]
GL: I agree that assistive technology coompat is important but I don't think it is enough.
18:29:06 [kford]
GL: For example a browser with no keyb9oard access saying you could use voice input for anything you wanted to do with the keyboard isn't enough. This wouldn't be accessible.
18:29:54 [kford]
SH: Would a browser on the Macintosh that obtained keyboard access only when you turned on the OS accessibility pas our guidelines?
18:30:13 [kford]
18:34:10 [AllanJ]
GL: keyboards even when referenced are assumed to include emulators.
18:34:24 [kford]
/me testing
18:34:38 [AllanJ]
... everything even pads are doing keyboard emulation even with gestures
18:37:35 [AllanJ]
SH: keyboard access means keyboard emulation by some other mechanism.
18:38:21 [kford]
SH: We've mixed our terms. We say you should provide keyboard access but what we mean is really that something
18:38:45 [kford]
SH: that allows for some sort of intermediate control.
18:39:16 [AllanJ]
KF: not following this.
18:39:58 [AllanJ]
SH: keyboard access = speech or switch to emulate the keyboard, but its the same as API
18:40:18 [AllanJ]
KF: where are we making this connection
18:41:19 [kford]
JA: What I'm hearing you say is that when we say keyboard, the brwoser doesn't provide a keyboard so this already comes from the operating system.
18:41:58 [kford]
JA: I think you may be going way too far down the chain.
18:42:55 [kford]
SH: I'm not saying this at all. I'm saying we are saying that you can control by the keyboard, or some other mechanism or emulation.
18:47:56 [kford]
Much discussion on this topic.
18:48:31 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:48:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kford
18:49:26 [Greg]
Greg: Principles and Guidelines are supposed to be broad, vague, and subjective. We don't require conformance with them. Rather, a UA that wants certification for a certain level needs to comply with specific Success Criteria, which ARE supposed to be specific, objective, measurable, and narrow in scope.
18:50:32 [kford]
GL: Simon, you are suggesting that there are additional items we should promote/recommend.
18:51:04 [kford]
SH: I think this is difficult for us because we don't have someone who does this sort of work is an expert.
18:51:29 [kford]
KP: If you have a universal control, any9one who wants to provide pictures for example could connect to this.
18:51:38 [AllanJ]
SH: GL 5 says nothing about how to make the UI understandable to someone with a cognitive disability
18:52:49 [AllanJ]
... how is the UI unterstandable if the UI does no include pictograms
18:54:07 [AllanJ]
18:54:10 [kford]
GL: We need to be including items that have two UA already providing this.
18:55:36 [kford]
SH: What I'd like to do is go through the UA guidelines and see how they match or support accessibility in the different kinds of commonly understood disabilities.
18:55:47 [AllanJ]
ack me
18:55:56 [kford]
Action: SH to review UAAG for how it supports commonly known disabilities.
18:55:56 [trackbot]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - SH
18:55:56 [trackbot]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. sharper, shayes)
18:57:04 [kford]
Action: sharper to review UAAG for how it supports various disabilities.
18:57:04 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-283 - Review UAAG for how it supports various disabilities. [on Simon Harper - due 2010-02-18].
19:01:11 [Greg]
From ISO 9241-141:
19:01:13 [Greg]
9.3 Keyboard input
19:01:15 [Greg]
9.3.1 General
19:01:16 [Greg]
Although the provisions of this subclause refer to keyboard input, the source of such input can be a variety of software and hardware alternative input devices.
19:01:18 [Greg]
In this section, “keyboard” should be interpreted as referencing a logical device rather than a physical keyboard.
19:04:22 [kford]
zakim, close item 1
19:04:22 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Discuss "I'm Worried", closed
19:04:23 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
19:04:25 [Zakim]
2. 3.1 wrap-up [from AllanJ]
19:05:12 [kford]
Group now talking about JA action 282.
19:05:40 [AllanJ]
agenda+ Action 282
19:05:54 [AllanJ]
zakim, open item 5
19:05:54 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Action 282" taken up [from AllanJ]
19:06:45 [kford]
JA recaps mail discussion.
19:08:37 [kford]
JA: I tried going into HTML 5 also. Think about this and review.
19:09:37 [kford]
JA: Some things I didn't include because they seem like top level elements. My assumption is that they show in the DOM.
19:10:11 [kford]
The unique one is the detail and summary elements in HTML 5.
19:11:20 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:11:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kford
19:13:18 [AllanJ]
from greg: a) raw HTML associated with an element or range,
19:13:19 [AllanJ]
b) filename associated with an IMG,
19:13:21 [AllanJ]
c) title attribute for any element
19:13:25 [jeanne]
action: Jeanne to add the list of alternative content to Implementing section 3.
19:13:25 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-284 - Add the list of alternative content to Implementing section 3. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-02-18].
19:13:55 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:13:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kford
19:16:08 [kford]
JA: How should we deal with microformats?
19:16:23 [kford]
JA: there is some talk in HTML 5 about these?
19:18:43 [AllanJ]
GL: what about WAI-ROLE and STATE info might be alternative content
19:19:19 [kford]
present: Simon, Jim, Kelly, Kim, Jim
19:19:35 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:19:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kford
19:19:49 [kford]
group talking further about alternative contents.
19:20:15 [kford]
Various add-ons and ways UA expose this.
19:21:08 [kford]
19:21:09 [jeanne]
action: jeanne to add role and state to the list on action-284
19:21:09 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-285 - Add role and state to the list on action-284 [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-02-18].
19:21:28 [AllanJ]
agenda+ action-280 fallback
19:21:30 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:21:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kford
19:21:38 [AllanJ]
zakim, take up item 6
19:21:38 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "action-280 fallback" taken up [from AllanJ]
19:23:16 [kford]
19:25:57 [kford]
JA: Any objections to this going to our docs?
19:26:48 [kford]
JA: this would be under GL 3.11.
19:27:05 [jeanne]
jeanne to add email use case to section 3.1.1-2 from the email /2010JanMar/0055.html
19:28:02 [kford]
/me Jeanne would you able to close things up today? I have a situation brewing here.
19:28:22 [kford]
Group talking further about where and how to locate this text.
19:28:53 [kford]
JA: I thought noframes and noscript might fall into this.
19:29:28 [jeanne]
scribe: jeanne
19:29:51 [jeanne]
Kim: I generally like more information
19:30:01 [jeanne]
Kelly: what is the harm?
19:30:45 [kford]
/me Apologies but I am going to have to leave.
19:30:47 [jeanne]
Greg: this may require more of the user agent. Since it is level AA, it should be alright. I don't want to make it lvl A and require it of everyone.
19:31:06 [Zakim]
19:31:58 [AllanJ]
scribe: allanJ
19:34:38 [Zakim]
19:34:40 [Zakim]
19:34:41 [Zakim]
19:35:44 [AllanJ]
discussion of no-script and no-frame as alternative content
19:36:42 [AllanJ]
GL: need to consider development time and effort
19:40:17 [AllanJ]
action: jallan to create use case for no-script etc. for implementation doc
19:40:18 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-286 - Create use case for no-script etc. for implementation doc [on Jim Allan - due 2010-02-18].
19:40:31 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:40:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate AllanJ
19:40:44 [AllanJ]
zakim, please part
19:40:44 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were +1.512.206.aaaa, Jeanne, AllanJ, +1.425.895.aabb, sharper, Greg, Kford, +1.617.325.aacc, KimPatch
19:40:44 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
19:41:18 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:41:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate AllanJ
19:42:37 [jeanne]
chair: Jim_Allan, Kelly_Ford
19:42:44 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:42:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate jeanne
19:43:05 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, please part
19:43:05 [RRSAgent]
I see 5 open action items saved in :
19:43:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: SH to review UAAG for how it supports commonly known disabilities. [1]
19:43:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
19:43:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: sharper to review UAAG for how it supports various disabilities. [2]
19:43:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
19:43:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne to add the list of alternative content to Implementing section 3. [3]
19:43:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
19:43:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to add role and state to the list on action-284 [4]
19:43:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
19:43:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jallan to create use case for no-script etc. for implementation doc [5]
19:43:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in