17:45:55 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:45:55 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/02/11-ua-irc
17:45:57 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:45:57 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ua
17:45:59 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
17:45:59 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 15 minutes
17:46:00 <trackbot> Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
17:46:00 <trackbot> Date: 11 February 2010
17:51:16 <AllanJ> Agenda+ Discuss "I'm Worried"
17:51:18 <AllanJ> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JanMar/0052.html
17:51:20 <AllanJ> Agenda+ 3.1 wrap-up
17:51:21 <AllanJ> Agenda+ 4.9 brainstorming
17:53:24 <AllanJ> regrets: Mark_H, Patrick_L, Jan_R
17:58:19 <sharper> sharper has joined #ua
17:58:51 <sharper> zakim, coe?
17:58:51 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, sharper.
17:59:05 <sharper> zakim, code?
17:59:05 <Zakim> the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), sharper
17:59:05 <Greg> Greg has joined #ua
18:00:18 <Zakim> WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
18:00:25 <Zakim> + +1.512.206.aaaa
18:00:26 <Zakim> +Jeanne
18:00:56 <jeanne> zakim, +1.512 is really AllanJ
18:00:56 <Zakim> +AllanJ; got it
18:01:06 <Zakim> + +1.425.895.aabb
18:01:37 <Greg> Zakim, this is me
18:01:37 <Zakim> Greg, I see SwapMe in the schedule but not yet started.  Perhaps you mean "this will be me".
18:01:50 <Greg> Zakim, this will be me
18:01:50 <Zakim> ok, Greg; I see SwapMe
18:02:02 <kford> kford has joined #ua
18:02:10 <AllanJ> zakim, aabb is really Greg
18:02:10 <Zakim> sorry, AllanJ, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
18:02:20 <kford> zakim, code
18:02:20 <Zakim> I don't understand 'code', kford
18:02:21 <AllanJ> zakim, who is here
18:02:22 <Zakim> AllanJ, you need to end that query with '?'
18:02:34 <kford> zakim, code?
18:02:34 <Zakim> the conference code is 66542 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), kford
18:03:45 <jeanne> zakim, who is here?
18:03:45 <Zakim> I notice WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has restarted
18:03:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see Jeanne, AllanJ, +1.425.895.aabb, [Microsoft], ??P15
18:03:48 <Zakim> On IRC I see kford, Greg, sharper, Zakim, RRSAgent, AllanJ, jeanne, trackbot
18:03:48 <AllanJ> zakim, who is here?
18:03:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see Jeanne, AllanJ, +1.425.895.aabb, [Microsoft], ??P15
18:03:52 <Zakim> On IRC I see kford, Greg, sharper, Zakim, RRSAgent, AllanJ, jeanne, trackbot
18:03:56 <sharper> zakim, ??P15 is sharper
18:03:58 <Zakim> +sharper; got it
18:04:16 <AllanJ> zakim, aabb is really Greg
18:04:16 <Zakim> +Greg; got it
18:05:20 <AllanJ> zakim, Microsoft is really Kford
18:05:20 <Zakim> +Kford; got it
18:05:58 <AllanJ> agenda+ resolution for publishing working draft
18:06:48 <Zakim> + +1.617.325.aacc
18:07:14 <KimPatch> KimPatch has joined #ua
18:07:20 <AllanJ> zakim, aacc is really KimPatch
18:07:20 <Zakim> +KimPatch; got it
18:08:23 <kford> Who si going to scribe today?  I can if there isn't someone else.
18:09:02 <AllanJ> zakim, agenda
18:09:02 <Zakim> I don't understand 'agenda', AllanJ
18:09:03 <kford> scribe: Kelly
18:09:16 <AllanJ> zakim, agenda?
18:09:16 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
18:09:18 <Zakim> 1. Discuss "I'm Worried" [from AllanJ]
18:09:19 <Zakim> 2. 3.1 wrap-up [from AllanJ]
18:09:19 <Zakim> 3. 4.9 brainstorming [from AllanJ]
18:09:20 <Zakim> 4. resolution for publishing working draft [from AllanJ]
18:09:22 <kford> rrsagent, make minutes
18:09:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/11-ua-minutes.html kford
18:10:20 <kford> zakim, take up item 4
18:10:20 <Zakim> agendum 4. "resolution for publishing working draft" taken up [from AllanJ]
18:10:58 <kford> JAllan: We have to have a resolution in the minutes that says we agree to publish for a first working draft.
18:11:45 <kford> Jeanne: Best solution is to wait until after F2F. Publish in March and promote last draft before working call.
18:11:59 <kford> Jeanne: How to people feel about this?
18:12:27 <kford> JAllan: Any objections to publishing first working draft to implamentation document in March?
18:12:44 <kford> JAllan: No objections.
18:13:09 <jeanne> RESOLUTION: Publish the Implementing UAAG 2.0 as a First Public Working Draft. 
18:13:43 <kford> rrsagent, make minutes
18:13:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/11-ua-minutes.html kford
18:13:56 <kford> zakim, close item 4
18:13:56 <Zakim> agendum 4, resolution for publishing working draft, closed
18:13:57 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:13:58 <Zakim> 1. Discuss "I'm Worried" [from AllanJ]
18:14:04 <kford> zakim, take up item 1
18:14:04 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Discuss "I'm Worried"" taken up [from AllanJ]
18:14:23 <AllanJ> regrets+Bim_E
18:15:29 <kford> SH: I was silent on the call but as people were discussing things it came to my mind that were were talking about items that were very specific to certain disabilities.
18:16:53 <kford> SH: I'm concerned for example how people could be successful with some of our guidelines and addressing the needs for people with cognitive disabilities.
18:17:50 <kford> SH: I'm thinking we need to find ways to make user agents open themselves up more for intermediary agents to do some sort of translation.
18:18:53 <kford> SH: I've sent some of my responses and such to the list where we've been discussing this.
18:20:09 <kford> SH summarizes his e-mail.
18:22:30 <AllanJ> KF: to what extent insuring that UA has good programatic access would address your concerns...
18:22:49 <AllanJ> ... so that a UA could write to provide this
18:23:07 <AllanJ> SH: GL2 covers a lot
18:23:31 <AllanJ> ... we have presumptions, menuing commands are in text and can be read
18:24:16 <AllanJ> ... how does that help folks with cognitive problems who may need pictograms, or signlanguage
18:24:55 <AllanJ> ... english is a second language for most sign language speakers
18:25:24 <AllanJ> ... if taken to extremes, no UA could not meet all level A
18:26:49 <AllanJ> ... need some mechanism for extensions, external agents, etc. to provide transformation of content and UI
18:26:54 <kford> GL: You raised a lot of good issues.
18:27:11 <kford> GL: I think we should take on SC and go through it as an example.
18:27:41 <kford> GL: Saying something must be perceivable versus presented as visual text.
18:28:20 <kford> GL: I agree that assistive technology coompat is important but I don't think it is enough.
18:29:06 <kford> GL: For example a browser with no keyb9oard access saying you could use voice input for anything you wanted to do with the keyboard isn't enough.  This wouldn't be accessible.
18:29:54 <kford> SH: Would a browser on the Macintosh that obtained keyboard access only when you turned on the OS accessibility pas our guidelines?
18:30:13 <kford> s/pas/pass
18:34:10 <AllanJ> GL: keyboards even when referenced are assumed to include emulators. 
18:34:24 <kford> /me testing
18:34:38 <AllanJ> ... everything even pads are doing keyboard emulation even with gestures
18:37:35 <AllanJ> SH: keyboard access means keyboard emulation by some other mechanism.
18:38:21 <kford> SH: We've mixed our terms.  We say you should provide keyboard access but what we mean is really that something
18:38:45 <kford> SH: that allows for some sort of intermediate control.
18:39:16 <AllanJ> KF:  not following this.
18:39:58 <AllanJ> SH: keyboard access = speech or switch to emulate the keyboard, but its the same as API
18:40:18 <AllanJ> KF: where are we making this connection
18:41:19 <kford> JA: What I'm hearing you say is that when we say keyboard, the brwoser doesn't provide a keyboard so this already comes from the operating system.
18:41:58 <kford> JA: I think you may be going way too far down the chain.
18:42:55 <kford> SH: I'm not saying this at all. I'm saying we are saying that you can control by the keyboard, or some other mechanism or emulation.
18:47:56 <kford> Much discussion on this topic.
18:48:31 <kford> rrsagent, make minutes
18:48:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/11-ua-minutes.html kford
18:49:26 <Greg> Greg: Principles and Guidelines are supposed to be broad, vague, and subjective. We don't require conformance with them. Rather, a UA that wants certification for a certain level needs to comply with specific Success Criteria, which ARE supposed to be specific, objective, measurable, and narrow in scope.
18:50:32 <kford> GL: Simon, you are suggesting that there are additional items we should promote/recommend.
18:51:04 <kford> SH: I think this is difficult for us because we don't have someone who does this sort of work is an expert.
18:51:29 <kford> KP: If you have a universal control, any9one who wants to provide pictures for example could connect to this.
18:51:38 <AllanJ> SH: GL 5 says nothing about how to make the UI understandable to someone with a cognitive disability
18:52:49 <AllanJ> ... how is the UI unterstandable if the UI does no include pictograms
18:54:07 <AllanJ> q+ 
18:54:10 <kford> GL: We need to be including items that have two UA already providing this.
18:55:36 <kford> SH: What I'd like to do is go through the UA guidelines and see how they match or support accessibility in the different kinds of commonly understood disabilities.
18:55:47 <AllanJ> ack me
18:55:56 <kford> Action: SH to review UAAG for how it supports commonly known disabilities.
18:55:56 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - SH
18:55:56 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. sharper, shayes)
18:57:04 <kford> Action: sharper to review UAAG for how it supports various disabilities.
18:57:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-283 - Review UAAG for how it supports various disabilities. [on Simon Harper - due 2010-02-18].
19:01:11 <Greg> From ISO 9241-141: 
19:01:13 <Greg> 9.3 Keyboard input
19:01:15 <Greg> 9.3.1 General
19:01:16 <Greg> Although the provisions of this subclause refer to keyboard input, the source of such input can be a variety of software and hardware alternative input devices.
19:01:18 <Greg> In this section, “keyboard” should be interpreted as referencing a logical device rather than a physical keyboard.
19:04:22 <kford> zakim, close item 1
19:04:22 <Zakim> agendum 1, Discuss "I'm Worried", closed
19:04:23 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
19:04:25 <Zakim> 2. 3.1 wrap-up [from AllanJ]
19:05:12 <kford> Group now talking about JA action 282.
19:05:40 <AllanJ> agenda+ Action 282 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JanMar/0054.html
19:05:54 <AllanJ> zakim, open item 5
19:05:54 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Action 282 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JanMar/0054.html" taken up [from AllanJ]
19:06:45 <kford> JA recaps mail discussion.
19:08:37 <kford> JA: I tried going into HTML 5 also.  Think about this and review.
19:09:37 <kford> JA: Some things I didn't include because they seem like top level elements.  My assumption is that they show in the DOM.
19:10:11 <kford> The unique one is the detail and summary elements in HTML 5.
19:11:20 <kford> rrsagent, make minutes
19:11:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/11-ua-minutes.html kford
19:13:18 <AllanJ> from greg: a) raw HTML associated with an element or range,
19:13:19 <AllanJ> b) filename associated with an IMG,
19:13:21 <AllanJ> c) title attribute for any element
19:13:25 <jeanne> action: Jeanne to add the list of alternative content to Implementing section 3. 
19:13:25 <trackbot> Created ACTION-284 - Add the list of alternative content to Implementing section 3.  [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-02-18].
19:13:55 <kford> rrsagent, make minutes
19:13:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/11-ua-minutes.html kford
19:16:08 <kford> JA: How should we deal with microformats?
19:16:23 <kford> JA: there is some talk in HTML 5 about these?
19:18:43 <AllanJ> GL: what about WAI-ROLE and STATE info might be alternative content
19:19:19 <kford> present: Simon, Jim, Kelly, Kim, Jim
19:19:35 <kford> rrsagent, make minutes
19:19:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/11-ua-minutes.html kford
19:19:49 <kford> group talking further about alternative contents.
19:20:15 <kford> Various add-ons and ways UA expose this.
19:21:08 <kford> present+greg
19:21:09 <jeanne> action: jeanne to add role and state to the list on action-284
19:21:09 <trackbot> Created ACTION-285 - Add role and state to the list on action-284 [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-02-18].
19:21:28 <AllanJ> agenda+ action-280 fallback http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JanMar/0055.html
19:21:30 <kford> rrsagent, make minutes
19:21:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/11-ua-minutes.html kford
19:21:38 <AllanJ> zakim, take up item 6
19:21:38 <Zakim> agendum 6. "action-280 fallback http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JanMar/0055.html" taken up [from AllanJ]
19:23:16 <kford> present+Jeanne
19:25:57 <kford> JA: Any objections to this going to our docs?
19:26:48 <kford> JA: this would be under GL 3.11.
19:27:05 <jeanne> jeanne to add email use case to section 3.1.1-2 from the email /2010JanMar/0055.html
19:28:02 <kford> /me Jeanne would you able to close things up today?  I have a situation brewing here.
19:28:22 <kford> Group talking further about where and how to locate this text.
19:28:53 <kford> JA: I thought noframes and noscript might fall into this.
19:29:28 <jeanne> scribe: jeanne
19:29:51 <jeanne> Kim: I generally like more information
19:30:01 <jeanne> Kelly: what is the harm?
19:30:45 <kford> /me Apologies but I am going to have to leave.
19:30:47 <jeanne> Greg: this may require more of the user agent.  Since it is level AA, it should be alright.  I don't want to make it lvl A and require it of everyone. 
19:31:06 <Zakim> -Kford
19:31:58 <AllanJ> scribe: allanJ
19:34:38 <Zakim> -KimPatch
19:34:40 <Zakim> -sharper
19:34:41 <Zakim> -Greg
19:35:44 <AllanJ> discussion of no-script and no-frame as alternative content
19:36:42 <AllanJ> GL: need to consider development time and effort
19:40:17 <AllanJ> action: jallan to create use case for no-script etc. for implementation doc
19:40:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-286 - Create use case for no-script etc. for implementation doc [on Jim Allan - due 2010-02-18].
19:40:31 <AllanJ> rrsagent, make minutes
19:40:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/11-ua-minutes.html AllanJ
19:40:44 <AllanJ> zakim, please part
19:40:44 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were +1.512.206.aaaa, Jeanne, AllanJ, +1.425.895.aabb, sharper, Greg, Kford, +1.617.325.aacc, KimPatch
19:40:44 <Zakim> Zakim has left #ua
19:41:18 <AllanJ> rrsagent, make minutes
19:41:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/11-ua-minutes.html AllanJ
19:42:37 <jeanne> chair: Jim_Allan, Kelly_Ford
19:42:44 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
19:42:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/11-ua-minutes.html jeanne
19:43:05 <AllanJ> rrsagent, please part
19:43:05 <RRSAgent> I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/11-ua-actions.rdf :
19:43:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: SH to review UAAG for how it supports commonly known disabilities. [1]
19:43:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/11-ua-irc#T18-55-56
19:43:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: sharper to review UAAG for how it supports various disabilities. [2]
19:43:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/11-ua-irc#T18-57-04
19:43:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Jeanne to add the list of alternative content to Implementing section 3.  [3]
19:43:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/11-ua-irc#T19-13-25
19:43:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jeanne to add role and state to the list on action-284 [4]
19:43:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/11-ua-irc#T19-21-09
19:43:05 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jallan to create use case for no-script etc. for implementation doc [5]
19:43:05 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/11-ua-irc#T19-40-17