IRC log of html-wg on 2010-02-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:57:06 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-wg
16:57:06 [RRSAgent]
logging to
16:57:13 [krisk]
krisk has joined #HTML-WG
17:00:01 [paulc]
paulc has joined #html-wg
17:00:17 [rubys]
trackbot, start meeting
17:00:19 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:00:19 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #html-wg
17:00:21 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be HTML
17:00:21 [Zakim]
HTML matches both WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM and HTML_WG()12:00PM
17:00:22 [trackbot]
Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
17:00:22 [trackbot]
Date: 11 February 2010
17:00:28 [rubys]
zakim, this will be HTML_WG
17:00:28 [Zakim]
ok, rubys, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
17:01:02 [Zakim]
17:01:06 [Julian]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
17:01:06 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Radhika_Roy, +49.251.2.aaaa, Sam
17:01:09 [Zakim]
17:01:14 [anne]
I don't have a working Skype so I won't be able to attend
17:01:17 [Zakim]
- +49.251.2.aaaa
17:01:22 [Zakim]
17:01:31 [Eliot_Graff]
Eliot_Graff has joined #html-wg
17:01:33 [paulc]
zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc
17:01:33 [Zakim]
+paulc; got it
17:01:40 [anne]
If any more updates to html5-diff are needed please email, I'll get to it tomorrow or so.
17:01:44 [Zakim]
17:01:58 [paulc]
Thanks, anne.
17:02:10 [dsinger_]
dsinger_ has joined #html-wg
17:02:17 [MichaelC]
MichaelC has joined #html-wg
17:02:20 [dsinger_]
zakim, mute dsinger_
17:02:20 [Zakim]
dsinger_ should now be muted
17:02:27 [paulc]
I will mention the diffs status for you when we get to agenda item 3
17:02:34 [dsinger_]
zakim, who is here?
17:02:34 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Radhika_Roy, Sam, [Microsoft], Plh, dsinger_ (muted)
17:02:40 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has paulc
17:02:44 [Zakim]
On IRC I see MichaelC, dsinger_, Eliot_Graff, Zakim, paulc, krisk, RRSAgent, rubys, Mark, MikeSmith, mjs, kliehm, plh, aroben, miketaylr, Lachy, krijnh, arronei, Julian, ROBOd,
17:02:51 [Zakim]
... gavin_, anne, tlr, dsinger, shepazu, syp, CIA-1, karl, jgraham, jmb, Philip, hsivonen, Hixie, gsnedders, mamund, johndrinkwater, trackbot, webben, paul_irish, Shunsuke, tH,
17:02:56 [Zakim]
... drry, Dashiva, ed_work, gavin, inimino, hober, Yudai
17:03:00 [Zakim]
17:03:04 [Zakim]
17:03:14 [Zakim]
+ +1.251.280.aabb
17:03:16 [Zakim]
17:03:20 [Zakim]
17:03:22 [Zakim]
17:03:26 [Julian]
Zakim, +1.251.280.aabb is me
17:03:26 [Zakim]
+Julian; got it
17:03:27 [paulc]
who is CAI-1?
17:03:36 [Eliot_Graff]
zakim, Microsoft.a is me
17:03:36 [Zakim]
+Eliot_Graff; got it
17:03:36 [rubys]
17:03:50 [Zakim]
17:03:54 [krisk]
zakim, [Microsoft.aa] has krisk franko
17:03:54 [Zakim]
+krisk, franko; got it
17:03:59 [rubys]
scribe: rubys
17:04:12 [Zakim]
17:04:35 [bryan_sullivan]
bryan_sullivan has joined #html-wg
17:04:36 [masinter]
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17:05:06 [rubys]
topic: 1. ACTION items due by Thu Jan 28
17:05:16 [Julian]
17:05:16 [paulc]
17:05:34 [adrianba]
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17:05:39 [cyns]
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17:05:45 [rubys]
topic: ACTION-127 on Maciej Stachowiak
17:06:03 [rubys]
paulc: there's been one comment, but no other comment. Can we close the action now?
17:06:22 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, call Mike
17:06:22 [Zakim]
ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
17:06:24 [Zakim]
17:06:29 [rubys]
masinter: I'm trying to figure out at what point do people get to make comments?
17:06:47 [rubys]
paulc: is that a comment you can make on the thread?
17:06:58 [adrianba]
zakim, who is on the phone?
17:06:58 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Radhika_Roy, Sam, [Microsoft], Plh, dsinger_ (muted), Cynthia_Shelly, Michael_Cooper, Julian, Bryan_Sullivan, Eliot_Graff, [Microsoft.aa], kliehm, Masinter, Mike
17:07:01 [Zakim]
[Microsoft] has paulc
17:07:01 [Zakim]
[Microsoft.aa] has krisk, franko
17:07:02 [rubys]
masinter: we should see the final result before we approve it
17:07:21 [adrianba]
zakim, [Microsoft.aa] has adrianba
17:07:22 [Zakim]
+adrianba; got it
17:07:25 [rubys]
paulc: this is a never ending loop... it is out for comments
17:07:44 [rubys]
masinter: it wasn't clear to me
17:08:11 [Julian]
are we all talking about the same issue?
17:08:12 [rubys]
paulc: I believe that the plan is to start to use this policy, and I expect that we will need some changes in the future
17:08:23 [rubys]
close action-127
17:08:24 [trackbot]
ACTION-127 establish process for "official WG response" to other WG's RFC on LC drafts closed
17:08:38 [rubys]
topic: ACTION-163 on Michael(tm) Smith
17:09:15 [rubys]
MikeSmith: it is done, we can close the item. Everything is moved over. The old wiki is readonly now.
17:09:28 [rubys]
Paulc: link to the new wiki?
17:09:30 [MikeSmith]
17:09:40 [rubys]
close action-163
17:09:40 [trackbot]
ACTION-163 MediaWiki successor for current MoinMoin based wiki closed
17:09:51 [masinter]
when there are comments on a document, the editor makes edits to respond to the comments, and the editor's response is reviewed by the group to make sure the group agrees to the editor's edit. If Maciej is editor of this document, then he should update it to respond to the comments on it. The comment was: the working group doesn't have an opportunity to review the proposed working group response before the working group's response is
17:09:51 [masinter]
17:10:24 [rubys]
topic: action-168: H:TML
17:10:33 [rubys]
paulc: I made some comments
17:10:42 [rubys]
MikeSmith: I believe I've addressed them
17:11:13 [masinter]
The TAG had requested that it contain the RELAX-NG schema visible
17:11:22 [rubys]
MikeSmith: some parts won't show up until I flip the status to FPWD. I need a date.
17:11:28 [rubys]
PaulC: I'm not going to predict the date
17:11:38 [MikeSmith]
17:11:41 [rubys]
close action-168
17:11:41 [trackbot]
ACTION-168 Prepare H:TML for First Public Working Draft closed
17:11:51 [masinter]
i updated the status of the action
17:11:54 [rubys]
topic: ACTION-172 open Insure Change Proposal for ISSUE-4 (versioning) also covers ISSUE-84
17:12:24 [masinter]
17:12:24 [trackbot]
ACTION-172 -- Larry Masinter to insure Change Proposal for ISSUE-4 (versioning) also covers ISSUE-84 (legacy doctype) -- due 2010-02-18 -- OPEN
17:12:24 [trackbot]
17:12:25 [Zakim]
+ +1.218.340.aacc
17:12:29 [rubys]
masinter: we are still discussing this in the tag
17:12:35 [Laura]
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17:12:36 [rubys]
masinter: I updated the date to the 18th
17:13:02 [rubys]
masinter: that discussion is occuring on www-tag
17:13:22 [masinter]
uoting: 2010-02-10 17:49:18: Looks like I might get help from TAG, see, for example, TAG action 388 and, and "goals" for this change proposal at
17:13:22 [masinter]
[Larry Masinter]
17:13:28 [rubys]
masinter: I updated the action to point to this discussion
17:13:38 [rubys]
topic: ACTION-174 open Send info about IETF IRI working group
17:13:54 [masinter]
17:13:54 [trackbot]
ACTION-174 -- Larry Masinter to send info about IETF IRI working group, next meeting, mailing list, status of documents, etc., to HTML WG -- due 2010-02-15 -- OPEN
17:13:54 [trackbot]
17:13:54 [rubys]
masinter: I postponed this by a few days
17:14:27 [rubys]
paulc: other action items will be convered in the i11y tf discussion
17:14:34 [rubys]
topic: Update on publishing new drafts
17:14:44 [rubys]
paulc: we now have a diffs doc and a call for consensus
17:15:02 [rubys]
paulc: all of the comments on the diffs document are being worked
17:15:24 [paulc]
17:15:48 [rubys]
paulc: any questions?
17:15:52 [masinter]
do I need to repeat objections?
17:16:31 [rubys]
paulc: the co-chairs are aware of the formal objection
17:16:54 [rubys]
rubys: it would be helpful to repeat the objection
17:17:23 [rubys]
paulc: it would be helpful to people who aren't reading w3-archive email
17:17:54 [Zakim]
17:18:03 [rubys]
plh: we won't approve the FPWDs until the FO is resolved
17:18:15 [masinter]
sure, i'll forward my comment on scope
17:18:18 [dsinger]
zakim, [apple] has dsinger
17:18:18 [Zakim]
+dsinger; got it
17:18:27 [rubys]
paulc: plh and larry, can you post the FO on the public-html list and the affects on the plans?
17:18:33 [Zakim]
17:18:37 [rubys]
(plh and larry each agree)
17:18:53 [rubys]
topic: 4. WG Decision Policy
17:19:04 [rubys]
paulc: people should look at the bugzilla entries
17:19:10 [rubys]
17:19:20 [Laura]
HTML WG Process Bug List
17:19:21 [Laura]
17:19:43 [rubys]
paulc: any questions?
17:20:17 [rubys]
larry: it is baffling to me what the process is for dealing with the bugzilla bugs. Feels like gnomic.
17:20:22 [masinter]
17:20:34 [rubys]
17:21:02 [rubys]
paulc: we documented your questions as bugs, and decided to track transparently the comments we receive and how we are disposing of them.
17:21:45 [rubys]
paulc: this is no different than the W3C Process document. If a person makes a comment, a bug is opened.
17:21:58 [rubys]
larry: who processes bugs on the bug reports?
17:22:24 [rubys]
paulc: we documented this in public, put out a call for consensus, and made it clear that we are going to start using it as early as possible.
17:22:47 [rubys]
paulc: we have had comments on it. In order to track those comments, we are simply using bugzilla to create a transparent history.
17:23:23 [Laura]
Will the process bugs have an escalation process to the tracker?
17:23:24 [rubys]
paulc: I put this on the agenda to ensure that everybody is aware. There was somebody not aware last week, and I pointed him to bugzilla, and there is a new bug.
17:23:47 [rubys]
masinter: the answer to my question is that the chairs will make changes
17:23:55 [masinter]
got it
17:24:00 [rubys]
paulc: the chairs will propose changes and come back to the wg
17:24:26 [Laura]
17:24:28 [rubys]
paulc: (re Laura's q) the chairs haven't discussed this, but we would certainly consider doing that...
17:24:39 [masinter]
i think the issue is that the working group process needs to follow the W3C Process, and that escalation should go to the AB
17:25:18 [rubys]
paulc: maybe you should open a bug
17:25:22 [masinter]
escalation of process issues
17:25:33 [rubys]
rubys: that would be a reasonable next step after the WG decision
17:26:02 [rubys]
topic: Call For Consensus that close by Feb 11
17:26:17 [rubys]
ISSUE-83: I believe that this is still in process
17:26:17 [trackbot]
ISSUE-83 Use of the dt and dd elements in figure and details content models notes added
17:26:55 [rubys]
paulc: issue-83 is resolved
17:27:06 [rubys]
close issue-83
17:27:06 [trackbot]
ISSUE-83 Use of the dt and dd elements in figure and details content models closed
17:27:26 [rubys]
topic: Call for Proposals that close
17:27:29 [rubys]
17:27:38 [rubys]
topic: New Calls for Proposals/Consensus this Week
17:28:06 [rubys]
paulc: there has been discussion about issue 27 as to whether we can resolve this issue until the registry has been tested
17:28:27 [Julian]
17:28:40 [paulc]
ack Julian
17:28:41 [rubys]
... I've sent some emails to get some status. The IETF doc is in 2nd last call. It is only after the doc is closed that the registry can be created
17:29:15 [rubys]
Julian: after it has been updated, it needs to to the IESG and then to the RFC editor and then to IANA... we at least are talking 6-8 weeks
17:29:35 [rubys]
paulc: so the question is whether we keep this in limbo for that time
17:29:46 [rubys]
paulc: please update the thread with this info
17:29:49 [masinter]
i don't think it's "limbo" when there's a clear path
17:30:00 [rubys]
paulc: we'll leave issues 27 in it current state for now.
17:30:09 [rubys]
topic: issue-88
17:30:35 [rubys]
paulc: maciej has the ball...
17:30:38 [masinter]
17:30:38 [trackbot]
ISSUE-88 -- Should meta/@content allow a list of languages instead of just a single language? -- OPEN
17:30:38 [trackbot]
17:31:16 [rubys]
paulc: leave this in its current status and decide next week if a CfC or amicable resolution is the right next step
17:31:28 [rubys]
topic: New Calls for Counter Proposals this Week
17:31:36 [rubys]
topic: ISSUE-66 image-analysis
17:31:57 [paulc]
17:32:45 [rubys]
masinter: Matt is on vacation
17:33:02 [rubys]
rubys: this is for counters to Matt's proposal...
17:33:23 [rubys]
paulc: that's useful data, so that we don't misinterpret silence from Matt.
17:33:37 [rubys]
masinter: perhaps others from the a11y tf can help
17:33:47 [rubys]
topic: Testing Task Force
17:33:56 [krisk]
We met as a group on 2/9 (see
17:34:03 [krisk]
In addition to reviewing the tracker items and status (see
17:34:17 [krisk]
The biggest discussion was around leveraging the old DOM HTML Test suite.
17:34:23 [krisk]
The suite contains a number of tests that are part of HTML5.
17:34:33 [krisk]
Though it appears that some tests are not correct or interoperable with current modern browsers.
17:34:50 [krisk]
I expect that the testing task force will report back and create a bug, if we indeed need to clarify the HTML5 spec.
17:35:17 [rubys]
paulc: questions? comments?
17:35:26 [rubys]
topic: Accessibility Task Force
17:35:46 [MikeSmith]
17:35:46 [rubys]
paulc: acitons 138, 170, 173...
17:35:54 [MikeSmith]
17:35:54 [trackbot]
ACTION-138 -- Steve Faulkner to produce an ARIA matrix based on Henri's work -- due 2010-02-11 -- OPEN
17:35:54 [trackbot]
17:36:38 [rubys]
Mike: the media TF is just getting going, and will have a telecon on the 16th (17th in australia). Sylvia has sent out an agenda.
17:37:07 [rubys]
... the canvas TF is also having a telecon later today. After those telecons, we will have progress to report. Until then no new progress to report on.
17:37:13 [MikeSmith]
17:37:13 [trackbot]
ACTION-170 -- Janina Sajka to update A11Y timeline for tracker related issues -- due 2010-02-11 -- OPEN
17:37:13 [trackbot]
17:37:13 [paulc]
17:37:21 [MikeSmith]
17:37:22 [trackbot]
ACTION-173 -- Steve Faulkner to update Change Proposal for ISSUE-31 missing-alt -- due 2010-02-10 -- OPEN
17:37:22 [trackbot]
17:37:43 [rubys]
paulc: when does the task force intend to bring back specific proposals for specific issues?
17:38:21 [rubys]
mike: I'm not sure when we will have further resolution on summary. As far as canvas... they are still working on details. I can't give a firm date.
17:39:10 [rubys]
cyns: we expect to have a proposal for summary ready for the TF next tuesday, and this should be ready for the next WG call
17:39:21 [MikeSmith]
17:39:21 [trackbot]
ISSUE-33 -- [withdrawn] spec requires non-compliant Referer header -- CLOSED
17:39:21 [trackbot]
17:39:27 [MichaelC]
17:39:30 [MikeSmith]
17:39:30 [trackbot]
ACTION-33 -- Chris Wilson to investigate an HTML WG blog, a la the way the I18N WG does it -- due 2008-02-05 -- CLOSED
17:39:30 [trackbot]
17:39:35 [rubys]
17:39:39 [rubys]
17:39:39 [trackbot]
ISSUE-32 -- how to provide a summary of a table, e.g. for unsighted navigation? -- OPEN
17:39:39 [trackbot]
17:40:06 [MikeSmith]
actually, it seems it's issue 32
17:40:09 [MikeSmith]
17:40:09 [trackbot]
ISSUE-32 -- how to provide a summary of a table, e.g. for unsighted navigation? -- OPEN
17:40:09 [trackbot]
17:40:30 [rubys]
cyns: any member who is interested in this topic should watch the tf mailing list
17:41:18 [rubys]
paulc: it would help with confidence once we start seeing results.... it would also help to give people more heads up.
17:41:35 [rubys]
paulc: thank you to the TF
17:41:37 [rubys]
ack next
17:42:14 [rubys]
MichaelC: We have gone into bugzilla, and grouped them into related bugs, and would like to be able to do 5-10 bugs per week
17:42:35 [paulc]
A11Y F2F will be Apr 6-7 in UK
17:42:47 [rubys]
Michaelc: We plan to have a F2F meeting in early April, and progress will accelerate after that meeting
17:42:58 [Andrew12]
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17:43:18 [rubys]
paulc: any other comments?
17:43:26 [MichaelC]
ack me
17:43:59 [rubys]
action 170 is due in 2 weeks
17:43:59 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - 170
17:44:17 [rubys]
action-170 due in 2 weeks
17:44:17 [trackbot]
ACTION-170 Update A11Y timeline for tracker related issues due date now in 2 weeks
17:44:48 [rubys]
paulc: action 138 and action 173 needs new dates
17:45:11 [rubys]
laura: action 173 is done
17:46:17 [rubys]
close action-173, the change proposal is now in the hands of the task force
17:46:27 [rubys]
close action-173
17:46:27 [trackbot]
ACTION-173 Update Change Proposal for ISSUE-31 missing-alt closed
17:46:48 [rubys]
cyns: action-138 is a long term work item
17:46:57 [rubys]
action-137 due in 1 month
17:46:57 [trackbot]
ACTION-137 Update IRI spec based on comments to Public-IRI (Including those from HTML-WG members), due date now in 1 month
17:47:13 [rubys]
action-137 due in 1 month
17:47:13 [trackbot]
ACTION-137 Update IRI spec based on comments to Public-IRI (Including those from HTML-WG members), due date now in 1 month
17:47:41 [masinter]
17:47:41 [trackbot]
ACTION-137 -- Larry Masinter to update IRI spec based on comments to Public-IRI (Including those from HTML-WG members), -- due 2009-10-21 -- CLOSED
17:47:41 [trackbot]
17:47:51 [masinter]
action-137 is closed
17:48:00 [rubys]
action-138 due in 1 month
17:48:00 [trackbot]
ACTION-138 Produce an ARIA matrix based on Henri's work due date now in 1 month
17:48:53 [rubys]
kris: as the a11y tf brings forward proposals, it would be useful if they would also identify instances where test cases are required
17:49:07 [rubys]
cyns: we are not quite there yet
17:49:31 [rubys]
topic: 11. Discussion Items
17:50:12 [rubys]
paulc: we are continuing to discuss F2F meeting with other chairs and are looking at a date in April and are well aware of the feedback on the public-html list
17:50:24 [rubys]
cyns: looking for hosts?
17:50:36 [rubys]
paulc: we have several offers, so that is not a concern.
17:50:47 [rubys]
topic: Scribe for next meeting
17:50:53 [rubys]
Paulc volunteers to scribe
17:51:05 [sbublava]
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17:51:37 [rubys]
masinter: re: the F2F, are you accepting suggestions for agenda items?
17:51:51 [rubys]
paulc: post suggestions to the list
17:52:12 [rubys]
masinter: a prioritized list of issues on which we haven't made progress would be a good place to start
17:52:33 [rubys]
paulc: we seem to be making good progress, people are welcome to propose specific issues
17:52:45 [rubys]
paulc: it is highly unlikely that we will be making decisions at a F2F
17:52:58 [rubys]
masinter: I'm not tracking all of the issues that are open
17:53:12 [rubys]
paulc: I understand the criteria
17:53:17 [rubys]
paulc: any other comments
17:53:28 [rubys]
paulc: adjourned
17:53:31 [Zakim]
17:53:34 [Zakim]
17:53:35 [Zakim]
17:53:35 [Zakim]
17:53:38 [Zakim]
17:53:40 [Zakim]
17:53:52 [rubys]
'trackbot, publish minutes
17:53:55 [rubys]
trackbot, publish minutes
17:53:55 [trackbot]
Sorry, rubys, I don't understand 'trackbot, publish minutes'. Please refer to for help
17:54:03 [rubys]
rrsagent, publish minutes
17:54:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate rubys
17:54:33 [Zakim]
17:54:40 [Zakim]
- +1.218.340.aacc
17:54:42 [Zakim]
17:54:44 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, drop Mike
17:54:44 [Zakim]
Mike is being disconnected
17:54:45 [Zakim]
17:54:45 [Zakim]
17:54:45 [Zakim]
17:54:49 [Zakim]
17:54:51 [Zakim]
17:56:14 [Laura]
present+ Laura
17:56:16 [Laura]
17:57:12 [Zakim]
17:57:13 [Zakim]
HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
17:57:15 [Zakim]
Attendees were Radhika_Roy, +49.251.2.aaaa, Sam, Plh, paulc, dsinger_, Cynthia_Shelly, Michael_Cooper, Bryan_Sullivan, [Microsoft], Julian, Eliot_Graff, kliehm, krisk, franko,
17:57:17 [Zakim]
... Masinter, Mike, adrianba, +1.218.340.aacc, dsinger
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