IRC log of swxg on 2010-02-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:56:33 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #swxg
15:56:33 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/02/10-swxg-irc
15:56:35 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
15:56:36 [dsr]
dsr has joined #swxg
15:56:37 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 7994
15:56:37 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see INC_SWXG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
15:56:38 [trackbot]
Meeting: Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference
15:56:38 [trackbot]
Date: 10 February 2010
15:57:32 [melvster1]
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15:58:20 [Zakim]
INC_SWXG()11:00AM has now started
15:58:27 [Zakim]
+??P15
15:58:38 [tpa]
Zakim, P15 is me
15:58:38 [Zakim]
sorry, tpa, I do not recognize a party named 'P15'
15:58:42 [tpa]
Zakim, ??P15 is me
15:58:42 [Zakim]
+tpa; got it
15:58:47 [tpa]
Zakim, mute me
15:58:47 [Zakim]
sorry, tpa, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
15:59:02 [tpa]
ah. All alone again.
15:59:05 [bblfish]
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15:59:30 [danbri]
danbri has joined #swxg
16:00:23 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
16:00:27 [tpa]
Zakim, mute me
16:00:27 [Zakim]
tpa should now be muted
16:00:29 [manu]
zakim, I am IPcaller
16:00:48 [Yuk]
Yuk has joined #swxg
16:00:50 [AnitaD]
AnitaD has joined #swxg
16:01:27 [dsr]
zakim, dial dsr-office
16:01:35 [manu]
Zakim left the channel
16:01:36 [manu]
?
16:01:45 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #swxg
16:01:49 [danbri]
i can't call in right now, will lurk in irc ... try to get on later
16:01:55 [tpa]
Zakim, who is here?
16:01:55 [Zakim]
sorry, tpa, I don't know what conference this is
16:02:01 [tpa]
Zakim, this is SWXG
16:02:01 [Zakim]
ok, tpa; that matches INC_SWXG()11:00AM
16:02:02 [manu]
zakim, I am IPCaller
16:02:06 [tpa]
Zakim, who is here?
16:02:08 [manu]
uhh
16:02:26 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #swxg
16:02:34 [tpa]
Zakim, this is SWXG
16:02:34 [Zakim]
ok, tpa; that matches INC_SWXG()11:00AM
16:02:35 [manu]
zakim, this will be swxg
16:02:35 [Zakim]
ok, manu, I see INC_SWXG()11:00AM already started
16:02:42 [tpa]
Zakim, who is here?
16:02:42 [Zakim]
On the phone I see tpa
16:02:44 [Zakim]
+??P10
16:02:47 [dsr]
zakim, call dsr-office
16:02:48 [Zakim]
ok, dsr; the call is being made
16:02:48 [tpa]
Zakim, mute me
16:02:50 [Zakim]
tpa was already muted, tpa
16:02:52 [Zakim]
+Dsr
16:02:56 [Zakim]
+Doug_Schepers
16:03:10 [Zakim]
+??P36
16:03:17 [hhalpin]
Zakim, ??P36 is hhalpin
16:03:17 [Zakim]
+hhalpin; got it
16:03:23 [Zakim]
+ +1.510.931.aaaa
16:03:50 [hhalpin]
Zakim, whose on the phone?
16:03:52 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, hhalpin.
16:03:53 [Zakim]
+??P37
16:03:57 [DKA]
DKA has joined #swxg
16:03:57 [hhalpin]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:03:57 [Zakim]
On the phone I see tpa (muted), ??P10, Dsr, Doug_Schepers, hhalpin, +1.510.931.aaaa, ??P37
16:03:58 [manu]
zakim, I am ??P37
16:03:59 [Zakim]
+manu; got it
16:04:04 [melvster1]
zakim, ??P10 is me
16:04:04 [Zakim]
+melvster1; got it
16:04:14 [bblfish]
Zakim, aaaa is bblfish
16:04:14 [Zakim]
+bblfish; got it
16:04:20 [cperey]
cperey has joined #swxg
16:04:22 [shepazu]
shepazu has joined #swxg
16:04:43 [Zakim]
+ +0774811aabb
16:04:48 [hhalpin]
Zakim, pick a scribe
16:04:48 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose melvster1
16:04:54 [melvster]
ill try :)
16:05:07 [melvster]
any quick tips?
16:05:11 [Zakim]
+ +049172247aacc
16:05:13 [MacTed]
MacTed has joined #swxg
16:05:14 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.838.aadd
16:05:18 [melvster]
(not scribed before)
16:05:28 [manu]
scribenick: melvster
16:05:30 [MacTed]
Zakim, aadd is me
16:05:30 [Zakim]
+MacTed; got it
16:05:34 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
16:05:34 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
16:05:47 [melvster]
thanks!
16:05:56 [hhalpin]
topic: Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2010-02-10T16:00-17:00GMT
16:06:00 [hhalpin]
chair: hhalpin
16:06:04 [hhalpin]
scribe: melvster
16:06:14 [hhalpin]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:06:14 [Zakim]
On the phone I see tpa (muted), melvster1, Dsr, Doug_Schepers, hhalpin, bblfish, manu, +0774811aabb, +049172247aacc, MacTed (muted)
16:06:22 [tpa]
yup?
16:06:40 [AnitaD]
yes, Anita Doehler
16:06:53 [tpa]
Zakim, aacc is AnitaD
16:06:53 [Zakim]
+AnitaD; got it
16:06:57 [hhalpin]
Zakim, aabb is DKA
16:06:57 [Zakim]
+DKA; got it
16:06:57 [AnitaD]
AD is the German number
16:07:06 [hhalpin]
PROPOSED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 27 January 2010 as a true record
16:07:08 [Zakim]
+ +49.238.aaee
16:07:11 [melvster]
hhalpin: approve meeting minutes?
16:07:11 [tpa]
+1
16:07:14 [hhalpin]
http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-swxg-minutes.html
16:07:28 [hhalpin]
APPROVED: SWXG WG Weekly -- 27 January 2010 as a true record
16:07:39 [melvster]
... meeting next week dick hardt
16:07:42 [rreck]
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16:07:43 [hhalpin]
PROPOSED: to meet again Wed. February 17th: Dick Hardt on OpenID and WRAP
16:07:50 [hhalpin]
RESOLVED: meet again Wed. February 17th: Dick Hardt on OpenID and WRAP
16:07:50 [rreck]
+1 meet again
16:08:01 [hhalpin]
topic: Action Reminders
16:08:10 [FabGandon]
Zakim, +49.238.aaee is me
16:08:10 [Zakim]
+FabGandon; got it
16:08:12 [hhalpin]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/weekly-agenda.html
16:08:14 [melvster]
... action reminders, see weekly agenda
16:08:15 [Zakim]
+??P2
16:08:25 [rreck]
zakim, ??P2 is me
16:08:25 [Zakim]
+rreck; got it
16:08:28 [rreck]
zakim, mute me
16:08:28 [Zakim]
rreck should now be muted
16:08:37 [melvster]
... first step high level principles
16:08:38 [hhalpin]
topic: Discussion of high-level discussions
16:08:47 [melvster]
... there've been some emails
16:08:49 [hhalpin]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-socialweb/2010Jan/0019.html
16:09:10 [DKA]
+1 for consensus
16:09:10 [melvster]
... good discussion, we may want to try and reach consensus
16:09:33 [melvster]
AnitaD: a few different responses, perhaps we can restart the discussion
16:09:52 [melvster]
... perhaps misunderstanding over wording
16:10:12 [melvster]
... some of the discussion was related to apps rather than UGC
16:10:26 [hhalpin]
+1 to misunderstanding :)
16:10:32 [melvster]
... for example 1st principle -- what you see depends on who you are
16:11:07 [bblfish]
yes, so for 1 the wording needs to be improoved a little
16:11:08 [melvster]
... UGC depends on my relationship to the visitor, depending on what they can see
16:11:12 [bblfish]
so the intetnion is good
16:11:25 [melvster]
hhalpin: im ok with that 1st principle
16:11:38 [melvster]
... christine did some good work putting this in a table
16:11:42 [hhalpin]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/SocialWebFrameworks#The_Terminology
16:12:19 [melvster]
bblfish: good thought, perhaps empahsis should be on the person publishing it
16:12:20 [hhalpin]
"Who sees what depends on who they are"?
16:12:22 [rreck]
or the role they are instantiating
16:12:32 [melvster]
... tricky to word, difficult to get it right
16:12:34 [Zakim]
+??P3
16:12:45 [rreck]
a person can be fulfilling different purposes at different times
16:12:45 [Yuk]
zakim, ??P3 is me
16:12:45 [Zakim]
+Yuk; got it
16:12:55 [rreck]
horrible idea
16:12:57 [hhalpin]
If you want, I can put out Chris Saad's point
16:13:04 [melvster]
DKA: idea -- each principle should be a haiku :)
16:13:08 [hhalpin]
"Why? Maybe the site is designed to have a water cooler style 'what's
16:13:08 [hhalpin]
popular' approach (like most sites today) - why mandate a personalized
16:13:08 [hhalpin]
experience?
16:13:08 [hhalpin]
"
16:13:10 [rreck]
palindrome
16:13:31 [hhalpin]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-socialweb/2010Jan/0025.html
16:13:38 [hhalpin]
no-one I can find objected.
16:13:44 [melvster]
AnitaD: 2nd principle, no objections recorded
16:13:57 [rreck]
taking me a while to catch up
16:13:57 [melvster]
... comments?
16:14:09 [melvster]
hhalpin: just returning to the first principle
16:14:22 [melvster]
... some apps dont want a peronalized experienced
16:14:34 [hhalpin]
""Who sees what CAN depend on who they are"
16:14:58 [melvster]
... Chris Saad made the point that it should not be mandated
16:15:00 [bblfish]
Aphorism is the word I was looking for. Each one of those lines should be an aphorism
16:15:04 [bblfish]
(or a tweet)
16:15:16 [melvster]
DKA: takes back to conversations in santa clara and vodafone
16:15:24 [melvster]
... what differentiates the social web
16:15:51 [melvster]
... in santa clara we discussed 'why is created a friend different to following an rss feed'
16:15:53 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.848.aaff
16:16:22 [cperey]
zakim, aaff is me
16:16:22 [Zakim]
+cperey; got it
16:16:36 [bblfish]
yes: it is meaningful in a social context to know who you are communicating
16:16:39 [melvster]
... agreed, that even in twitter there is an implicit bidirectional connection
16:16:40 [bblfish]
with
16:16:50 [melvster]
... social web seems to be stronger bidirectionality
16:17:01 [melvster]
... bidirectionality implies a different experience
16:17:06 [hhalpin]
I'm happy to buy that different experience line, I was just bringing up Chris's point.
16:17:31 [bblfish]
What you tell (publish) to someone depends on who they are in your social network.
16:17:44 [bblfish]
idea: "What you tell (publish) to someone depends on who they are in your social network."
16:17:58 [melvster]
... its not social unless there's bidirectional relationship
16:18:17 [hhalpin]
Will having a different veiw, depending on who you are, be necessarily be
16:18:17 [hhalpin]
RESTful?
16:18:17 [hhalpin]
?
16:18:25 [hhalpin]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-socialweb/2010Jan/0069.html
16:18:29 [melvster]
hhalpin: bringing up chris saads point
16:18:31 [melvster]
hi
16:18:38 [melvster]
dont have a mic here im afriad ...!
16:18:55 [hhalpin]
no problems, henry will talk about REST
16:18:59 [melvster]
... will it be RESTful
16:19:10 [rreck]
kinda obvious but information you disclose in a social network is based entirely on language, as oppose to real life social interactions
16:19:27 [melvster]
bblfish: important part of the web is that documents should link to other documents
16:19:48 [melvster]
... one way of doing social networks is to copy information from one network to another
16:20:00 [melvster]
... one of the key elements of the social web is to reference using links
16:20:02 [rreck]
or based on volition
16:20:16 [melvster]
... email, for example, can be copied from inbox to inbox
16:20:24 [Adam]
Adam has joined #swxg
16:20:26 [melvster]
... but in general there's no identifier
16:20:41 [rreck]
yes
16:20:43 [melvster]
... if one speaker more in terms of linking between things, we get closer to the level of web architecture
16:20:50 [melvster]
s/speaker/speaks
16:21:23 [melvster]
hhalpin: agree with anitaD / DKA that connections are important, seems not terribly RESTful, but im ok with that, in certain contexts
16:21:36 [yoshiaki]
yoshiaki has joined #SWXG
16:21:42 [melvster]
... eg between friends you cant access certain URIs
16:21:51 [melvster]
... that is sort of restful in a wierd way
16:21:51 [hhalpin]
s/cant/can
16:22:22 [hhalpin]
+1 to second (Chris also said "sure")
16:22:33 [melvster]
anitad: any comments to the 2nd high level principle?
16:22:40 [hhalpin]
And I agree with first, but we might want to clarify the relationship to REST in our text.
16:22:41 [Zakim]
+??P5
16:22:42 [melvster]
... no ...
16:22:49 [melvster]
... 3rd principle
16:22:54 [bblfish]
yes for 3. That's a key REST principle
16:23:01 [hhalpin]
I agree with the third. Chris disagreed..
16:23:07 [melvster]
... You can expose your content (User Generated Content) to different > Social Networks or Social Applications, without the need to store the > content in these networks/applications.
16:23:24 [yoshiaki]
zakim, ??P5 is yoshiaki
16:23:24 [Zakim]
+yoshiaki; got it
16:23:49 [hhalpin]
I think Chris mainly was worried that we were *mandating*, but then we're not looking for requirements but guiding principles
16:23:56 [melvster]
... currently often need to store UGC on several different servers
16:24:11 [melvster]
... was that clear?
16:24:31 [melvster]
... continuing principle 4
16:24:37 [melvster]
... You can define the access control on a per item basis, either per contact, or per group.
16:24:43 [melvster]
... again referring to UGC
16:25:04 [melvster]
... user should be able to define access control to different attributes of UGC
16:25:07 [manu]
q+
16:25:08 [rreck]
what is "an item"
16:25:15 [melvster]
bblfish: are we maybe missing the identity of the user?
16:25:20 [rreck]
good question
16:25:23 [melvster]
... is global identity one of the principles
16:25:31 [melvster]
AnitaD: we discussed this internally
16:25:35 [rreck]
i think they are instantiating a role
16:25:39 [melvster]
... depends on terminology used
16:25:43 [manu]
I have a question about the principles...
16:25:47 [melvster]
... users can have different profiles
16:25:59 [DKA]
Also users can have multiple legal identities (e.g. dual citizens)
16:25:59 [rreck]
i operate as an admin, and as a user, i am the same person
16:26:16 [melvster]
... i dont always need to disclose my real identity
16:26:22 [rreck]
my identity is immaterial its the role im using
16:26:33 [rreck]
role
16:26:40 [hhalpin]
q+
16:26:43 [melvster]
bblfish: notion of type of identity is not so important, but we need a unique name
16:26:57 [melvster]
... name should refer uniquely to one thing, needs to be global
16:27:21 [melvster]
... to carry out the principles we need a global way of referring to something
16:27:31 [melvster]
... wondering if that's something that follows? or should it be a principle?
16:27:42 [manu]
identity should be a principle... it doesn't have to be global
16:27:44 [melvster]
AnitaD: you cant force someone to use one global identity
16:27:54 [manu]
but you do need it to talk about them - FOAF, VCARD, etc
16:27:57 [rreck]
reference
16:28:01 [hhalpin]
Maybe "Resources should have global identifiers (URIs), even if access to them is restricted on a contextual basis"
16:28:09 [hhalpin]
Basically, that is the "Web" in "Social Web" :)
16:28:14 [rreck]
+1 what harry said
16:28:22 [melvster]
bblfish: you dont need to force someone, but you need to identify they globally, you just need a handle on them, it's not a global identity, but in certain contexts they'll know it's me
16:28:40 [rreck]
i think its a principle
16:28:54 [hhalpin]
ack manu
16:28:55 [MacTed]
doesn't need to be global identifier.
16:28:55 [melvster]
... you can also refer to me as 'henry story', or bblfish, but in a global name, we need to give people global name, so that we can know which resources to give access to who
16:28:59 [MacTed]
just needs to be identifier.
16:29:28 [melvster]
... somehow the user needs to identify, so that the website can for example show a picture
16:29:32 [melvster]
who's speaking?
16:29:43 [rreck]
doug?
16:30:04 [rreck]
hi doug
16:30:06 [MacTed]
identifier of unique resource/entity ... all identifiers of same resource/entity should be owl:sameAs'ed ... and presto
16:30:28 [melvster]
manu: mostly wondering if this group is going to apply principles to some of the leading social networks out there ...
16:30:36 [hhalpin]
Manu, so we have a list of 50 top social networks we were going to test these and use-cases against
16:30:49 [hhalpin]
(looking for wiki list)
16:30:51 [melvster]
... might be helpul, and also the reverse, eg finding something that the leading soc nets do that are not in the list ...
16:30:51 [cperey]
this is a very good idea
16:30:57 [hhalpin]
ack hhalpin
16:31:06 [cperey]
important to refresh this
16:31:16 [cperey]
we didn't really go into the depth which is proposed
16:31:29 [cperey]
haha!
16:31:34 [melvster]
hhalpin: covered 50 top social networks, inc. mobile, good suggestion to apply to soc nets
16:31:44 [cperey]
and then be out of date a few days later
16:31:57 [MacTed]
any site/service should be able to create their own Identifiers (URIs) for their members.
16:31:57 [MacTed]
all members should be able to assert "I am also *that* member of *that* site" -- and perfect world, each service could verify that assertion
16:32:16 [hhalpin]
"Resources should have global identifiers (URIs), even if relationship to them are restricted on a contextual basis"
16:32:19 [hhalpin]
Broader than people
16:32:31 [melvster]
... could we deal with henry's comment, by adding principle 6: something like resources should have global identifiers even if access is restricted
16:32:46 [melvster]
... you dont necessarily have to have the same access permission
16:32:53 [MacTed]
"global identifier" remains troubling to me
16:32:58 [MacTed]
"global" isn't correct
16:33:08 [MacTed]
it's not the only identifier of the entity
16:33:13 [rreck]
global means unique
16:33:14 [bblfish]
Universal Resource Identifiers
16:33:15 [hhalpin]
"Resources should have universal/unique/uniform identifiers (URIs), even if relationship to them are restricted on a contextual basis"
16:33:18 [melvster]
... unique rather than global perhaps? universal? uniform?
16:33:28 [melvster]
... might be a nice addition?
16:33:33 [MacTed]
Resources should have identifiers (URIs).
16:33:34 [MacTed]
period
16:33:43 [hhalpin]
"Resources should have identifiers (URIs), even if relationship to them are restricted on a contextual basis"
16:33:43 [bblfish]
it would be interesting to get the Web Architecture people to look at those
16:33:45 [rreck]
i agree on identifier but dunno about globalness
16:33:56 [hhalpin]
ok, happy to drop globalness.
16:34:01 [hhalpin]
+1 on last principle
16:34:03 [MacTed]
that works :-)
16:34:04 [rreck]
maybe its called for?
16:34:08 [melvster]
AnitaD: principle 5. You can communicate with connections no matter which Social Network or Social Application you share.
16:34:12 [melvster]
... that's it ...
16:34:30 [hhalpin]
PROPOSED: Social Web XG adopts (puts in final report) Anita's principles plus a URI principle as our guiding principles
16:34:36 [hhalpin]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
16:34:36 [Zakim]
On the phone I see tpa (muted), melvster1, Dsr, Doug_Schepers, hhalpin, bblfish, manu, DKA, AnitaD, MacTed (muted), FabGandon, rreck (muted), Yuk, cperey, yoshiaki
16:34:38 [rreck]
+1
16:34:41 [melvster]
+1
16:34:42 [FabGandon]
+1
16:34:45 [DKA]
q+ to suggest we at least reach consensus on the idea of publishing some principles into the final report + a survey of how current social networks show these...
16:34:52 [hhalpin]
ack DKA
16:34:52 [Zakim]
DKA, you wanted to suggest we at least reach consensus on the idea of publishing some principles into the final report + a survey of how current social networks show these...
16:34:58 [DKA]
+1
16:35:14 [hhalpin]
bblfish?
16:35:14 [melvster]
DKA: i support the proposed resolution, but also the idea of building outwards
16:35:15 [bblfish]
+1 though I think we should be open to improovements to the lanauge
16:35:16 [hhalpin]
Yuk?
16:35:18 [cperey]
I would also like to build up or out
16:35:18 [tpa]
+1
16:35:21 [hhalpin]
Yoshiaki?
16:35:27 [melvster]
... like the idea of looking at current soc nets and apps. and showcase these principles
16:35:29 [hhalpin]
We can wordsmith a bit in the wiki
16:35:32 [cperey]
I'm a little taken aback by going to resolution stage
16:35:54 [cperey]
that's fine
16:36:01 [melvster]
hhalpin: i put a page called final report in the wiki, ill put the principles in there
16:36:11 [DKA]
We can also move fast in W3C when necessary.
16:36:18 [DKA]
ack me
16:36:21 [hhalpin]
RESOLVED: Social Web XG adopts (puts in final report) Anita's principles plus a URI principle as our guiding principles
16:36:22 [rreck]
sure
16:36:28 [hhalpin]
ACTION: hhalpin to put these principles in new wiki page
16:36:28 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-124 - Put these principles in new wiki page [on Harry Halpin - due 2010-02-17].
16:36:35 [yoshiaki]
+1
16:36:57 [DKA]
Thanks Anita!
16:36:58 [manu]
Topic: PaySwarm Discussion
16:36:59 [hhalpin]
topic: Manu Sporny and Doug Schepers on Payswarm
16:36:59 [melvster]
hhalpin: have a special guest on the phone
16:37:02 [rreck]
thanks anita
16:37:12 [melvster]
... manu sporny and doug schepers on payswarm
16:37:20 [melvster]
... thankful about your work with html / rdfa
16:37:35 [melvster]
... doug is one of the api experts at the w3c
16:37:47 [manu]
* The overall goal of PaySwarm
16:37:48 [manu]
* build ability to buy/sell digital content into browsers
16:37:50 [manu]
* We are discussing a system that has been implemented commercially
16:37:52 [manu]
* bitmunk.com (website and peer-to-peer PaySwarm network)
16:37:54 [manu]
* Digital Contracts and Electronic Signatures as a basis for
16:37:56 [manu]
licensing and copyright-aware digital content distribution
16:37:57 [manu]
* E-SIGN Act of 2000
16:37:59 [manu]
* The typical participants on a PaySwarm network
16:38:00 [manu]
* content owner
16:38:02 [manu]
* The Sales Verificatin Authority
16:38:04 [manu]
* sellers
16:38:06 [manu]
* buyers
16:38:08 [manu]
* How pricing is calculated on a PaySwarm network
16:38:10 [manu]
* content owner royalty + seller distribution fee + network fees
16:38:12 [manu]
* Licenses are sold separately from data
16:38:13 [manu]
* A typical content transaction on a PaySwarm network
16:38:14 [melvster]
Doug: overall goal is to buy and sell digital content in web browsers
16:38:15 [manu]
1. content owner registers content with SVA and sets royalties
16:38:16 [manu]
2. buyers search for content to buy or visits a website with
16:38:18 [manu]
semantic markup or a link to initiate a purchase contract
16:38:20 [manu]
3. buyer purchases content from the swarm
16:38:21 [manu]
4. buyer automatically joins swarm for re-distribution
16:38:23 [manu]
5. buyer becomes seller and gets a cut of each download
16:38:24 [manu]
* More resources
16:38:26 [manu]
* PaySwarm FAQ: http://payswarm.com/specs/payswarm-faq.html
16:38:27 [manu]
* PaySwarm Use Cases: http://payswarm.com/specs/payswarm-use-cases.html
16:38:30 [melvster]
... mobile, and from corporations to customers, and P2P
16:38:54 [melvster]
... there's a site called bitmunk.com ... im the founder of digital bazaar
16:38:57 [shepazu]
s/Doug: overall /Manu: overall /
16:39:02 [melvster]
thx :)
16:39:11 [bblfish]
me too lost manu for a second
16:39:19 [hhalpin]
q?
16:39:22 [melvster]
... it's more than high level, we have a lot of details worked out
16:39:33 [manu]
hmm
16:39:33 [bblfish]
I think it is
16:39:34 [melvster]
... please feel free to ask questions as we go alon
16:39:52 [bblfish]
yes we hear you
16:39:59 [hhalpin]
So basically let's do questions at end
16:40:07 [hhalpin]
and add yourself as usual using "q+"
16:40:28 [melvster]
... basis of payswarm is using digital contracts and electronic signatures as a way to encode content and exchange
16:40:39 [melvster]
... esign act of 2000, is a basis
16:41:11 [melvster]
... if you can verify a person's identity (eg bankcard / electron signature) or drivers licence, their use of that is as binding as a pen signature
16:41:21 [melvster]
... this opens doors to using digital contracts
16:41:42 [melvster]
... not just small priced, but also high priced, up to $150,000 is enforcable in the US
16:41:53 [bblfish]
lost manu
16:42:00 [bblfish]
very echoy
16:42:14 [MacTed]
sadly, IP telephony is really not up to what it could be
16:42:15 [bblfish]
ouch! cell phone
16:42:15 [melvster]
... calling in on cell phone
16:42:42 [Zakim]
+ +1.540.641.aagg
16:42:42 [DKA]
...some drop-outs happening...
16:42:42 [DKA]
...maybe he fell down a well...
16:42:45 [Zakim]
-manu
16:42:49 [bblfish]
bzzzzt crscsssdfssdsd bzzttt
16:43:08 [melvster]
... 4 major participants
16:43:31 [melvster]
... content owner (creates digital content) music label, music studio, home studio, research, anything digital
16:44:31 [melvster]
... sales verification authority, identity management, collect royalties, distribute royalties, making sure the network is operating corrections, police DOS, eg digital bazaar, itunes/amazon coudl
16:44:40 [melvster]
s/coudl/could
16:44:44 [melvster]
... sellers
16:44:51 [melvster]
... buyers
16:45:01 [melvster]
... buyers and sellers are almost interchangable
16:45:16 [melvster]
... a buyer can become a source, just like bittorrent
16:45:23 [melvster]
... thats how we add scalability
16:45:25 [melvster]
... questions?
16:45:34 [bblfish]
no that seems simple
16:45:43 [bblfish]
you have 4 types of users
16:45:58 [bblfish]
or 4 roles
16:45:58 [melvster]
... theres a lot of complexity behind the scenes
16:46:17 [melvster]
... pricing is calculated, you have to allow pricing independently
16:46:35 [melvster]
... content owner is allowed to set royalties, independent of the sellers prices
16:46:47 [melvster]
... sellers then set their prices
16:46:52 [melvster]
... then there are network fees
16:47:23 [melvster]
... final price is, royalties plus sellers distribution fee plus network fee
16:47:29 [melvster]
... spec allows more complexity
16:47:53 [melvster]
... the network we separate purchasing a licence with purchasing a good
16:48:15 [melvster]
... eg you can purchase a low definition or high definition stream
16:48:24 [melvster]
... typically how the content industry would like it to work
16:48:36 [bblfish]
sounds sensible
16:48:47 [bblfish]
though I would not have thought about doing that
16:49:19 [melvster]
... typical transaction ... content owner goes to the SVA and registers their content for sale, by uploading a reference file
16:49:27 [melvster]
... these are my royalties
16:49:32 [hhalpin]
it seems like it is crucial to allow separate pricing, and that does keep it rather simple.
16:49:47 [hhalpin]
may some issues about "network" i.e. in distributed apps where you get to one app via another one...
16:49:49 [melvster]
... once registered on the network, buyers will then find the file on the network
16:49:56 [hhalpin]
like going to a ad via Google :)
16:50:01 [hhalpin]
who gets the cash?
16:50:03 [melvster]
... doesnt have to happen on one website, the system is decentralized
16:50:05 [hhalpin]
just the last network?
16:50:12 [melvster]
... eg can be download from a blog
16:50:31 [melvster]
... part of your pay goes to support a blog
16:50:45 [melvster]
... you can embed data using rdfa / micrformats
16:51:03 [melvster]
... buyers find information through a web based mechanism
16:51:07 [oshani]
oshani has joined #swxg
16:51:13 [melvster]
... they can buy from an individual or from the swarm
16:51:19 [melvster]
... licence from one person
16:51:27 [melvster]
... each piece of data from 1000's of people
16:51:38 [melvster]
... hope it ends up driving distribution costs down
16:51:48 [melvster]
... eg distributing movies in HD
16:52:05 [melvster]
... dont need huge capacity, other people will help as they have a financial incentive
16:52:19 [melvster]
... buyers then seed files by default
16:52:32 [melvster]
... payswarm faq
16:52:44 [Zakim]
-cperey
16:52:51 [melvster]
... and payswarm use cases
16:53:02 [melvster]
... things we want to support in version 2.0 e.g. identity
16:53:07 [melvster]
... dont necessarily need that
16:53:18 [melvster]
... v 2.0 we're going to try and build in identity / financial management
16:53:23 [melvster]
... that's a quick overview
16:53:25 [melvster]
... questions?
16:53:27 [hhalpin]
q+
16:53:33 [bblfish]
q+
16:53:40 [hhalpin]
ack hhalpin
16:53:58 [hhalpin]
"network trails"
16:54:00 [melvster]
hhalpin: how about the idea of network trails
16:54:37 [melvster]
... look at distributed networks, you may have several layers to get to your content
16:54:38 [hhalpin]
So let's say I go to Youtube
16:54:48 [hhalpin]
that then sends me to a third-party, NoGoodTV
16:54:54 [hhalpin]
I get content from that.
16:54:58 [hhalpin]
Can Youtube get a cut?
16:55:15 [melvster]
manu: on a low level, we're going to use a bunch of REST api calls, json format, exchange pieces of information for the transaction
16:55:22 [melvster]
... send it to the SVA
16:55:30 [melvster]
... then the purchase process starts
16:55:40 [melvster]
... exchange between browser / SVA
16:55:50 [melvster]
... could you elaborate on network trails?
16:56:09 [hhalpin]
yes, "referrer" is the right word
16:56:13 [Zakim]
-Yuk
16:56:22 [melvster]
... a chain of multiple referrers, does everyone get a cut?
16:56:25 [hhalpin]
so they CAN be compensated.
16:56:28 [melvster]
... currently no
16:56:38 [melvster]
... doesnt make much sense from a business perspective
16:56:47 [hhalpin]
because that person sends them traffic.
16:56:54 [melvster]
... why would they want to pay some else
16:56:56 [hhalpin]
the referrer sends them traffic.
16:57:01 [hhalpin]
letting them sale more
16:57:31 [hhalpin]
tpa? I also know you've thought a bit about micropayments..
16:57:39 [melvster]
... the seller would be able to choose who else to pay ... we are moving away from the concept of middle men on the network
16:58:19 [melvster]
hhalpin: might be a surprisingly popular option, to have referrers drive traffic to the long tail
16:58:25 [melvster]
... just throwing a thought out there
16:58:28 [hhalpin]
ack bblfish
16:58:30 [bblfish]
http://www.heppnetz.de/ontologies/goodrelations/v1
16:58:41 [melvster]
bblfish: does this fit in with goodrelations ontology?
16:59:13 [melvster]
AnitaD: talked to mfhepp about payswarm, and am sure we will end up integrating GR with payswarm
16:59:33 [melvster]
... one of the reasons we got involved with RDFa
16:59:41 [melvster]
... in our company we have a firefox plugin
16:59:41 [shepazu]
q?
16:59:51 [melvster]
... will work out all purchasable content on that page
16:59:54 [shepazu]
q+ to ask about karma
17:00:01 [melvster]
... can use that info to generate a contract
17:00:06 [melvster]
... send it to the SVA
17:00:37 [melvster]
... in the future the browser will scrape the info e.g. in rdfa / microformats, then uses that to figure out the contract and send to the SVA
17:00:59 [Zakim]
-Dsr
17:01:11 [melvster]
bblfish: at imperial 1995, people talked about micropayments, why hasnt it taken off? how are you keeping the costs low?
17:01:23 [melvster]
... fundamental to saving some content providers
17:01:28 [hhalpin]
q+ standardization
17:01:34 [hhalpin]
ack standardization
17:01:36 [hhalpin]
q+
17:01:43 [MacTed]
if I choose to refer to a referrer to a seller, I should get a cut of the referrer's cut ...
17:01:43 [MacTed]
if I choose to refer directly to a seller, I should get the entire referrer's cut...
17:01:43 [MacTed]
by making the choice of how I refer, I have chosen how the payment should be made.
17:01:44 [MacTed]
face-to-face business works well this way.
17:01:44 [MacTed]
I think that empirically deciding "there will be no more middle men!" will tend more to stifle business than to encourage it
17:01:48 [bblfish]
the same reason we no longer talk about semantic web ;-)
17:02:05 [hhalpin]
its "linked data" now :)
17:02:21 [hhalpin]
good idea MacTed
17:02:22 [shepazu]
("don't make me think")
17:02:29 [melvster]
manu: good point, the problem is, P2P / micro payments have a bad rap, interfaces were bothering the user, eg for 1c 2c, most people couldnt be bothered to reach for their wallets
17:02:35 [bblfish]
( mhh interesting: the identity problem resurges )
17:02:37 [melvster]
... interactions costs were too high
17:02:42 [melvster]
... ROI was not there
17:02:57 [melvster]
... systems not integrated into browser
17:03:04 [melvster]
... you had to join evercoin etc.
17:03:15 [melvster]
... wasnt a fundamental part of the web
17:03:28 [bblfish]
makes sense :-)
17:04:00 [MacTed]
more than anything else, too many micropayment providers makes it too hard on the purchaser
17:04:14 [melvster]
... requires too much work on the user's behalf, what you would ideally like you to do is say, 'would you like to set your daily/monthly spending limit', the browser would then operate within that limit
17:04:21 [hhalpin]
+1 this browser idea, was thinking about this when NYTimes tried to charge me this morning :)
17:04:25 [melvster]
... browser prompts you to increase it
17:04:29 [MacTed]
largely because each *seller* tended to have a single relationship with a micropayment provider
17:04:46 [melvster]
... visa transactions cost too much
17:05:05 [MacTed]
transaction aggregation is obviously the way it has to be done
17:05:07 [melvster]
... payswarm addresses each of these issues
17:05:25 [melvster]
... you put in $10 or $20 at a time
17:05:35 [bblfish]
(yes NYTimes and all the newspapers ask for $25 per year, and one never knows ahead of time if one is ever going to read that much from that site: hence the importance of micropayments. PaySwarm seems to solve this, by making it standard, and make it easy to set policies on payments for a site)
17:05:51 [melvster]
... creating a world standard for payments couples with browser integration, will reduce friction of transactions
17:05:59 [melvster]
bblfish: thanks, very helpful
17:06:01 [rreck]
when its seamless there is less barrier to entry
17:06:07 [Zakim]
-tpa
17:06:14 [melvster]
... are you feeling browser vendors are helping?
17:06:29 [MacTed]
does PaySwarm aim for exclusive arrangements with sellers, i.e., can a seller *only* accept PaySwarm, or can they accept any/all (micro)payment providers
17:06:32 [MacTed]
?
17:06:34 [hhalpin]
q?
17:06:53 [melvster]
manu: we think the most important people to get on board is the large companies, newspapers, music industries ... going to meet one of the big 4 music labels today
17:07:20 [melvster]
... if they music industry gets behind it, the web browser can add a small fee
17:07:46 [melvster]
... dont expect that browsers will not want to refuse this market
17:08:17 [melvster]
... havent approached browser manufacturers yet, but will in the next few months, but mainly we're trying with the record labels
17:08:29 [hhalpin]
ack shepazu
17:08:29 [Zakim]
shepazu, you wanted to ask about karma
17:08:37 [melvster]
bblfish: thanks
17:08:41 [bblfish]
... dont expect that browsers manufatcturers will not be interested in a market where they can take 1% of every transaction"
17:09:02 [melvster]
manu: source code released for ref impl. hopefully api overview in the next month
17:09:12 [melvster]
... in the context of the social web
17:09:54 [melvster]
... and distributed management of a currency
17:10:11 [melvster]
... eg amazon lets me know how many people have had successful transactions with an entity
17:10:33 [melvster]
... part of identity management (SVA) can also manage reputation?
17:10:58 [melvster]
... we need an identity management nexus, dont want to bite off too much work
17:11:07 [melvster]
... the system is distributed
17:11:19 [melvster]
... financial payment system distributed
17:11:24 [melvster]
... rating system distributed
17:11:50 [melvster]
... 2nd aspect, what if you want to exchange karma
17:12:10 [melvster]
... an analogy is MMORPG
17:12:19 [melvster]
... world of warcraft millionaires
17:12:35 [melvster]
... get magic swords and sell them on ebay
17:12:40 [melvster]
... changing currencies
17:12:51 [melvster]
... karma and reputation as a currency, can we distribute that?
17:13:12 [bblfish]
it's true it could help adoption to be able to work with game money
17:13:24 [melvster]
... game money, real money, reputation are mechanisms of distributing credit
17:13:32 [bblfish]
because then one could start without getting through big government agencies
17:13:34 [melvster]
... might make it easier to do some social networking things
17:14:01 [melvster]
... might now be just about money, something built into the browser, that can be used as a part of exchange
17:14:30 [melvster]
... in music there's cash and reputation, you can trade one or the other
17:14:36 [bblfish]
q+
17:15:00 [melvster]
... could tell that to music companies, but it certainly has context in the social web
17:15:12 [Yuk]
Yuk has joined #swxg
17:15:14 [melvster]
... how can people trade reputation among each other
17:15:27 [melvster]
... unlike money, it's not a scarce resource
17:15:59 [melvster]
bblfish: you can start growing without the overhead of banks etc. can get really big testing grounds
17:16:37 [hhalpin]
ack hhalpin
17:16:37 [melvster]
manu: the currency of exchange does not have to be USD EUR etc. can be something else
17:17:30 [bblfish]
+1
17:17:31 [melvster]
hhalpin: should end the call soonish, may be some standardization, we did have micropayments in the initial charter
17:17:49 [melvster]
... what's the current state of play
17:18:44 [melvster]
manu: focussed on getting w3c interested, and getting people into the w3c, mobile carriers, app stores, standardized app stores
17:19:02 [melvster]
... buying and selling research data
17:19:14 [melvster]
... artists generating work for you
17:19:32 [melvster]
... primary focus is getting as many people as possible, then getting those people to go to the w3c
17:19:48 [hhalpin]
member organizations in this xg could help if they want to.
17:19:55 [melvster]
... if swxg says payswarm should be standarized would be great, and helpful
17:19:57 [hhalpin]
i.e. endorse a charter etc.
17:20:06 [melvster]
... w3c already tried micropayments in the 90s
17:20:23 [melvster]
... dont want to fail at it again
17:20:34 [melvster]
... may be some resistance to doing this
17:20:54 [melvster]
... w3c may be cautious, conservative on certain issues, due to reputation concerns
17:21:05 [melvster]
... best way to overcome objections, is to find major stakeholders
17:21:14 [melvster]
... wont come from browser vendors
17:21:45 [melvster]
... opera maybe, but browser vendors in general not, more newspapers, movie houses, record labels
17:21:58 [bblfish]
games
17:22:03 [DKA]
...mobile operators who want to have interoperable app stores...
17:22:06 [melvster]
... would be good to get bankers interested, paypal, amazon
17:22:10 [hhalpin]
:)
17:22:22 [melvster]
... after that see where we can go
17:22:25 [bblfish]
though perhaps the W3C could do an XG on this
17:22:26 [melvster]
... urge w3c to take thison
17:22:36 [melvster]
bblfish: maybe an XG for this?
17:22:45 [melvster]
manu: probably the next step
17:23:03 [melvster]
... while we're marshalling stakeholders create an XG perhaps
17:23:25 [hhalpin]
ack bblfish
17:23:25 [melvster]
... trying to bootstrap, xg would be appropriate, necessary but not sufficient
17:23:34 [rreck]
thanks for presenting
17:23:39 [melvster]
bblfish: where do you put the money?
17:23:54 [melvster]
manu: the money is kept with the SVA
17:24:07 [melvster]
... we have digital money and digital certificates
17:24:13 [melvster]
... you're operating as a pseudo bank
17:24:21 [melvster]
... governments dont like it when you do that
17:24:30 [melvster]
... SVA handle the money
17:24:56 [melvster]
... so you dont have an issue in the browser of handling money
17:25:02 [melvster]
... there isnt even legislation for that
17:25:08 [melvster]
... you take a regular credit card
17:25:14 [melvster]
... add money to an SVA
17:25:20 [MacTed]
so it's Paypal redux
17:25:26 [melvster]
... that is linked to the browser
17:25:44 [DKA]
I have to drop off call - sorry! Very interesting presentation. Vodafone might be interested in participating in an XG on this topic, for the record...
17:25:47 [melvster]
bblfish: it's not anonymous
17:25:47 [DKA]
ciao
17:25:53 [Zakim]
-DKA
17:26:01 [melvster]
manu: completely the other way, there needs to be strong identity
17:26:34 [melvster]
... anonymous payments is an interesting concept, but it starts raising red flags to regulatory agencies
17:26:46 [hhalpin]
trackbot, end meetings
17:26:46 [trackbot]
Sorry, hhalpin, I don't understand 'trackbot, end meetings'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
17:26:47 [melvster]
hhalpin: thanks, end of meeting
17:26:50 [Zakim]
-AnitaD
17:26:53 [rreck]
thank you guys
17:26:54 [hhalpin]
trackbot, end meeting
17:26:54 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
17:26:54 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been tpa, [IPcaller], Dsr, Doug_Schepers, hhalpin, +1.510.931.aaaa, manu, melvster1, bblfish, +0774811aabb, +049172247aacc, +1.617.838.aadd,
17:26:55 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:26:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/10-swxg-minutes.html trackbot
17:26:56 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
17:26:56 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/10-swxg-actions.rdf :
17:26:56 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: hhalpin to put these principles in new wiki page [1]
17:26:56 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/10-swxg-irc#T16-36-28
17:26:58 [Zakim]
... MacTed, AnitaD, DKA, FabGandon, rreck, Yuk, +1.617.848.aaff, cperey, yoshiaki, +1.540.641.aagg
17:26:58 [Zakim]
-FabGandon