15:56:33 RRSAgent has joined #swxg 15:56:33 logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/02/10-swxg-irc 15:56:35 RRSAgent, make logs world 15:56:36 dsr has joined #swxg 15:56:37 Zakim, this will be 7994 15:56:37 ok, trackbot; I see INC_SWXG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes 15:56:38 Meeting: Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference 15:56:38 Date: 10 February 2010 15:57:32 melvster1 has joined #swxg 15:58:20 INC_SWXG()11:00AM has now started 15:58:27 +??P15 15:58:38 Zakim, P15 is me 15:58:38 sorry, tpa, I do not recognize a party named 'P15' 15:58:42 Zakim, ??P15 is me 15:58:42 +tpa; got it 15:58:47 Zakim, mute me 15:58:47 sorry, tpa, muting is not permitted when only one person is present 15:59:02 ah. All alone again. 15:59:05 bblfish has joined #swxg 15:59:30 danbri has joined #swxg 16:00:23 +[IPcaller] 16:00:27 Zakim, mute me 16:00:27 tpa should now be muted 16:00:29 zakim, I am IPcaller 16:00:48 Yuk has joined #swxg 16:00:50 AnitaD has joined #swxg 16:01:27 zakim, dial dsr-office 16:01:35 Zakim left the channel 16:01:36 ? 16:01:45 Zakim has joined #swxg 16:01:49 i can't call in right now, will lurk in irc ... try to get on later 16:01:55 Zakim, who is here? 16:01:55 sorry, tpa, I don't know what conference this is 16:02:01 Zakim, this is SWXG 16:02:01 ok, tpa; that matches INC_SWXG()11:00AM 16:02:02 zakim, I am IPCaller 16:02:06 Zakim, who is here? 16:02:08 uhh 16:02:26 Zakim has joined #swxg 16:02:34 Zakim, this is SWXG 16:02:34 ok, tpa; that matches INC_SWXG()11:00AM 16:02:35 zakim, this will be swxg 16:02:35 ok, manu, I see INC_SWXG()11:00AM already started 16:02:42 Zakim, who is here? 16:02:42 On the phone I see tpa 16:02:44 +??P10 16:02:47 zakim, call dsr-office 16:02:48 ok, dsr; the call is being made 16:02:48 Zakim, mute me 16:02:50 tpa was already muted, tpa 16:02:52 +Dsr 16:02:56 +Doug_Schepers 16:03:10 +??P36 16:03:17 Zakim, ??P36 is hhalpin 16:03:17 +hhalpin; got it 16:03:23 + +1.510.931.aaaa 16:03:50 Zakim, whose on the phone? 16:03:52 I don't understand your question, hhalpin. 16:03:53 +??P37 16:03:57 DKA has joined #swxg 16:03:57 Zakim, who's on the phone? 16:03:57 On the phone I see tpa (muted), ??P10, Dsr, Doug_Schepers, hhalpin, +1.510.931.aaaa, ??P37 16:03:58 zakim, I am ??P37 16:03:59 +manu; got it 16:04:04 zakim, ??P10 is me 16:04:04 +melvster1; got it 16:04:14 Zakim, aaaa is bblfish 16:04:14 +bblfish; got it 16:04:20 cperey has joined #swxg 16:04:22 shepazu has joined #swxg 16:04:43 + +0774811aabb 16:04:48 Zakim, pick a scribe 16:04:48 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose melvster1 16:04:54 ill try :) 16:05:07 any quick tips? 16:05:11 + +049172247aacc 16:05:13 MacTed has joined #swxg 16:05:14 + +1.617.838.aadd 16:05:18 (not scribed before) 16:05:28 scribenick: melvster 16:05:30 Zakim, aadd is me 16:05:30 +MacTed; got it 16:05:34 Zakim, mute me 16:05:34 MacTed should now be muted 16:05:47 thanks! 16:05:56 topic: Convene SWXG WG meeting of 2010-02-10T16:00-17:00GMT 16:06:00 chair: hhalpin 16:06:04 scribe: melvster 16:06:14 Zakim, who's on the phone? 16:06:14 On the phone I see tpa (muted), melvster1, Dsr, Doug_Schepers, hhalpin, bblfish, manu, +0774811aabb, +049172247aacc, MacTed (muted) 16:06:22 yup? 16:06:40 yes, Anita Doehler 16:06:53 Zakim, aacc is AnitaD 16:06:53 +AnitaD; got it 16:06:57 Zakim, aabb is DKA 16:06:57 +DKA; got it 16:06:57 AD is the German number 16:07:06 PROPOSED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 27 January 2010 as a true record 16:07:08 + +49.238.aaee 16:07:11 hhalpin: approve meeting minutes? 16:07:11 +1 16:07:14 http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-swxg-minutes.html 16:07:28 APPROVED: SWXG WG Weekly -- 27 January 2010 as a true record 16:07:39 ... meeting next week dick hardt 16:07:42 rreck has joined #SWXG 16:07:43 PROPOSED: to meet again Wed. February 17th: Dick Hardt on OpenID and WRAP 16:07:50 RESOLVED: meet again Wed. February 17th: Dick Hardt on OpenID and WRAP 16:07:50 +1 meet again 16:08:01 topic: Action Reminders 16:08:10 Zakim, +49.238.aaee is me 16:08:10 +FabGandon; got it 16:08:12 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/weekly-agenda.html 16:08:14 ... action reminders, see weekly agenda 16:08:15 +??P2 16:08:25 zakim, ??P2 is me 16:08:25 +rreck; got it 16:08:28 zakim, mute me 16:08:28 rreck should now be muted 16:08:37 ... first step high level principles 16:08:38 topic: Discussion of high-level discussions 16:08:47 ... there've been some emails 16:08:49 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-socialweb/2010Jan/0019.html 16:09:10 +1 for consensus 16:09:10 ... good discussion, we may want to try and reach consensus 16:09:33 AnitaD: a few different responses, perhaps we can restart the discussion 16:09:52 ... perhaps misunderstanding over wording 16:10:12 ... some of the discussion was related to apps rather than UGC 16:10:26 +1 to misunderstanding :) 16:10:32 ... for example 1st principle -- what you see depends on who you are 16:11:07 yes, so for 1 the wording needs to be improoved a little 16:11:08 ... UGC depends on my relationship to the visitor, depending on what they can see 16:11:12 so the intetnion is good 16:11:25 hhalpin: im ok with that 1st principle 16:11:38 ... christine did some good work putting this in a table 16:11:42 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/SocialWebFrameworks#The_Terminology 16:12:19 bblfish: good thought, perhaps empahsis should be on the person publishing it 16:12:20 "Who sees what depends on who they are"? 16:12:22 or the role they are instantiating 16:12:32 ... tricky to word, difficult to get it right 16:12:34 +??P3 16:12:45 a person can be fulfilling different purposes at different times 16:12:45 zakim, ??P3 is me 16:12:45 +Yuk; got it 16:12:55 horrible idea 16:12:57 If you want, I can put out Chris Saad's point 16:13:04 DKA: idea -- each principle should be a haiku :) 16:13:08 "Why? Maybe the site is designed to have a water cooler style 'what's 16:13:08 popular' approach (like most sites today) - why mandate a personalized 16:13:08 experience? 16:13:08 " 16:13:10 palindrome 16:13:31 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-socialweb/2010Jan/0025.html 16:13:38 no-one I can find objected. 16:13:44 AnitaD: 2nd principle, no objections recorded 16:13:57 taking me a while to catch up 16:13:57 ... comments? 16:14:09 hhalpin: just returning to the first principle 16:14:22 ... some apps dont want a peronalized experienced 16:14:34 ""Who sees what CAN depend on who they are" 16:14:58 ... Chris Saad made the point that it should not be mandated 16:15:00 Aphorism is the word I was looking for. Each one of those lines should be an aphorism 16:15:04 (or a tweet) 16:15:16 DKA: takes back to conversations in santa clara and vodafone 16:15:24 ... what differentiates the social web 16:15:51 ... in santa clara we discussed 'why is created a friend different to following an rss feed' 16:15:53 + +1.617.848.aaff 16:16:22 zakim, aaff is me 16:16:22 +cperey; got it 16:16:36 yes: it is meaningful in a social context to know who you are communicating 16:16:39 ... agreed, that even in twitter there is an implicit bidirectional connection 16:16:40 with 16:16:50 ... social web seems to be stronger bidirectionality 16:17:01 ... bidirectionality implies a different experience 16:17:06 I'm happy to buy that different experience line, I was just bringing up Chris's point. 16:17:31 What you tell (publish) to someone depends on who they are in your social network. 16:17:44 idea: "What you tell (publish) to someone depends on who they are in your social network." 16:17:58 ... its not social unless there's bidirectional relationship 16:18:17 Will having a different veiw, depending on who you are, be necessarily be 16:18:17 RESTful? 16:18:17 ? 16:18:25 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-socialweb/2010Jan/0069.html 16:18:29 hhalpin: bringing up chris saads point 16:18:31 hi 16:18:38 dont have a mic here im afriad ...! 16:18:55 no problems, henry will talk about REST 16:18:59 ... will it be RESTful 16:19:10 kinda obvious but information you disclose in a social network is based entirely on language, as oppose to real life social interactions 16:19:27 bblfish: important part of the web is that documents should link to other documents 16:19:48 ... one way of doing social networks is to copy information from one network to another 16:20:00 ... one of the key elements of the social web is to reference using links 16:20:02 or based on volition 16:20:16 ... email, for example, can be copied from inbox to inbox 16:20:24 Adam has joined #swxg 16:20:26 ... but in general there's no identifier 16:20:41 yes 16:20:43 ... if one speaker more in terms of linking between things, we get closer to the level of web architecture 16:20:50 s/speaker/speaks 16:21:23 hhalpin: agree with anitaD / DKA that connections are important, seems not terribly RESTful, but im ok with that, in certain contexts 16:21:36 yoshiaki has joined #SWXG 16:21:42 ... eg between friends you cant access certain URIs 16:21:51 ... that is sort of restful in a wierd way 16:21:51 s/cant/can 16:22:22 +1 to second (Chris also said "sure") 16:22:33 anitad: any comments to the 2nd high level principle? 16:22:40 And I agree with first, but we might want to clarify the relationship to REST in our text. 16:22:41 +??P5 16:22:42 ... no ... 16:22:49 ... 3rd principle 16:22:54 yes for 3. That's a key REST principle 16:23:01 I agree with the third. Chris disagreed.. 16:23:07 ... You can expose your content (User Generated Content) to different > Social Networks or Social Applications, without the need to store the > content in these networks/applications. 16:23:24 zakim, ??P5 is yoshiaki 16:23:24 +yoshiaki; got it 16:23:49 I think Chris mainly was worried that we were *mandating*, but then we're not looking for requirements but guiding principles 16:23:56 ... currently often need to store UGC on several different servers 16:24:11 ... was that clear? 16:24:31 ... continuing principle 4 16:24:37 ... You can define the access control on a per item basis, either per contact, or per group. 16:24:43 ... again referring to UGC 16:25:04 ... user should be able to define access control to different attributes of UGC 16:25:07 q+ 16:25:08 what is "an item" 16:25:15 bblfish: are we maybe missing the identity of the user? 16:25:20 good question 16:25:23 ... is global identity one of the principles 16:25:31 AnitaD: we discussed this internally 16:25:35 i think they are instantiating a role 16:25:39 ... depends on terminology used 16:25:43 I have a question about the principles... 16:25:47 ... users can have different profiles 16:25:59 Also users can have multiple legal identities (e.g. dual citizens) 16:25:59 i operate as an admin, and as a user, i am the same person 16:26:16 ... i dont always need to disclose my real identity 16:26:22 my identity is immaterial its the role im using 16:26:33 role 16:26:40 q+ 16:26:43 bblfish: notion of type of identity is not so important, but we need a unique name 16:26:57 ... name should refer uniquely to one thing, needs to be global 16:27:21 ... to carry out the principles we need a global way of referring to something 16:27:31 ... wondering if that's something that follows? or should it be a principle? 16:27:42 identity should be a principle... it doesn't have to be global 16:27:44 AnitaD: you cant force someone to use one global identity 16:27:54 but you do need it to talk about them - FOAF, VCARD, etc 16:27:57 reference 16:28:01 Maybe "Resources should have global identifiers (URIs), even if access to them is restricted on a contextual basis" 16:28:09 Basically, that is the "Web" in "Social Web" :) 16:28:14 +1 what harry said 16:28:22 bblfish: you dont need to force someone, but you need to identify they globally, you just need a handle on them, it's not a global identity, but in certain contexts they'll know it's me 16:28:40 i think its a principle 16:28:54 ack manu 16:28:55 doesn't need to be global identifier. 16:28:55 ... you can also refer to me as 'henry story', or bblfish, but in a global name, we need to give people global name, so that we can know which resources to give access to who 16:28:59 just needs to be identifier. 16:29:28 ... somehow the user needs to identify, so that the website can for example show a picture 16:29:32 who's speaking? 16:29:43 doug? 16:30:04 hi doug 16:30:06 identifier of unique resource/entity ... all identifiers of same resource/entity should be owl:sameAs'ed ... and presto 16:30:28 manu: mostly wondering if this group is going to apply principles to some of the leading social networks out there ... 16:30:36 Manu, so we have a list of 50 top social networks we were going to test these and use-cases against 16:30:49 (looking for wiki list) 16:30:51 ... might be helpul, and also the reverse, eg finding something that the leading soc nets do that are not in the list ... 16:30:51 this is a very good idea 16:30:57 ack hhalpin 16:31:06 important to refresh this 16:31:16 we didn't really go into the depth which is proposed 16:31:29 haha! 16:31:34 hhalpin: covered 50 top social networks, inc. mobile, good suggestion to apply to soc nets 16:31:44 and then be out of date a few days later 16:31:57 any site/service should be able to create their own Identifiers (URIs) for their members. 16:31:57 all members should be able to assert "I am also *that* member of *that* site" -- and perfect world, each service could verify that assertion 16:32:16 "Resources should have global identifiers (URIs), even if relationship to them are restricted on a contextual basis" 16:32:19 Broader than people 16:32:31 ... could we deal with henry's comment, by adding principle 6: something like resources should have global identifiers even if access is restricted 16:32:46 ... you dont necessarily have to have the same access permission 16:32:53 "global identifier" remains troubling to me 16:32:58 "global" isn't correct 16:33:08 it's not the only identifier of the entity 16:33:13 global means unique 16:33:14 Universal Resource Identifiers 16:33:15 "Resources should have universal/unique/uniform identifiers (URIs), even if relationship to them are restricted on a contextual basis" 16:33:18 ... unique rather than global perhaps? universal? uniform? 16:33:28 ... might be a nice addition? 16:33:33 Resources should have identifiers (URIs). 16:33:34 period 16:33:43 "Resources should have identifiers (URIs), even if relationship to them are restricted on a contextual basis" 16:33:43 it would be interesting to get the Web Architecture people to look at those 16:33:45 i agree on identifier but dunno about globalness 16:33:56 ok, happy to drop globalness. 16:34:01 +1 on last principle 16:34:03 that works :-) 16:34:04 maybe its called for? 16:34:08 AnitaD: principle 5. You can communicate with connections no matter which Social Network or Social Application you share. 16:34:12 ... that's it ... 16:34:30 PROPOSED: Social Web XG adopts (puts in final report) Anita's principles plus a URI principle as our guiding principles 16:34:36 Zakim, who's on the phone? 16:34:36 On the phone I see tpa (muted), melvster1, Dsr, Doug_Schepers, hhalpin, bblfish, manu, DKA, AnitaD, MacTed (muted), FabGandon, rreck (muted), Yuk, cperey, yoshiaki 16:34:38 +1 16:34:41 +1 16:34:42 +1 16:34:45 q+ to suggest we at least reach consensus on the idea of publishing some principles into the final report + a survey of how current social networks show these... 16:34:52 ack DKA 16:34:52 DKA, you wanted to suggest we at least reach consensus on the idea of publishing some principles into the final report + a survey of how current social networks show these... 16:34:58 +1 16:35:14 bblfish? 16:35:14 DKA: i support the proposed resolution, but also the idea of building outwards 16:35:15 +1 though I think we should be open to improovements to the lanauge 16:35:16 Yuk? 16:35:18 I would also like to build up or out 16:35:18 +1 16:35:21 Yoshiaki? 16:35:27 ... like the idea of looking at current soc nets and apps. and showcase these principles 16:35:29 We can wordsmith a bit in the wiki 16:35:32 I'm a little taken aback by going to resolution stage 16:35:54 that's fine 16:36:01 hhalpin: i put a page called final report in the wiki, ill put the principles in there 16:36:11 We can also move fast in W3C when necessary. 16:36:18 ack me 16:36:21 RESOLVED: Social Web XG adopts (puts in final report) Anita's principles plus a URI principle as our guiding principles 16:36:22 sure 16:36:28 ACTION: hhalpin to put these principles in new wiki page 16:36:28 Created ACTION-124 - Put these principles in new wiki page [on Harry Halpin - due 2010-02-17]. 16:36:35 +1 16:36:57 Thanks Anita! 16:36:58 Topic: PaySwarm Discussion 16:36:59 topic: Manu Sporny and Doug Schepers on Payswarm 16:36:59 hhalpin: have a special guest on the phone 16:37:02 thanks anita 16:37:12 ... manu sporny and doug schepers on payswarm 16:37:20 ... thankful about your work with html / rdfa 16:37:35 ... doug is one of the api experts at the w3c 16:37:47 * The overall goal of PaySwarm 16:37:48 * build ability to buy/sell digital content into browsers 16:37:50 * We are discussing a system that has been implemented commercially 16:37:52 * bitmunk.com (website and peer-to-peer PaySwarm network) 16:37:54 * Digital Contracts and Electronic Signatures as a basis for 16:37:56 licensing and copyright-aware digital content distribution 16:37:57 * E-SIGN Act of 2000 16:37:59 * The typical participants on a PaySwarm network 16:38:00 * content owner 16:38:02 * The Sales Verificatin Authority 16:38:04 * sellers 16:38:06 * buyers 16:38:08 * How pricing is calculated on a PaySwarm network 16:38:10 * content owner royalty + seller distribution fee + network fees 16:38:12 * Licenses are sold separately from data 16:38:13 * A typical content transaction on a PaySwarm network 16:38:14 Doug: overall goal is to buy and sell digital content in web browsers 16:38:15 1. content owner registers content with SVA and sets royalties 16:38:16 2. buyers search for content to buy or visits a website with 16:38:18 semantic markup or a link to initiate a purchase contract 16:38:20 3. buyer purchases content from the swarm 16:38:21 4. buyer automatically joins swarm for re-distribution 16:38:23 5. buyer becomes seller and gets a cut of each download 16:38:24 * More resources 16:38:26 * PaySwarm FAQ: http://payswarm.com/specs/payswarm-faq.html 16:38:27 * PaySwarm Use Cases: http://payswarm.com/specs/payswarm-use-cases.html 16:38:30 ... mobile, and from corporations to customers, and P2P 16:38:54 ... there's a site called bitmunk.com ... im the founder of digital bazaar 16:38:57 s/Doug: overall /Manu: overall / 16:39:02 thx :) 16:39:11 me too lost manu for a second 16:39:19 q? 16:39:22 ... it's more than high level, we have a lot of details worked out 16:39:33 hmm 16:39:33 I think it is 16:39:34 ... please feel free to ask questions as we go alon 16:39:52 yes we hear you 16:39:59 So basically let's do questions at end 16:40:07 and add yourself as usual using "q+" 16:40:28 ... basis of payswarm is using digital contracts and electronic signatures as a way to encode content and exchange 16:40:39 ... esign act of 2000, is a basis 16:41:11 ... if you can verify a person's identity (eg bankcard / electron signature) or drivers licence, their use of that is as binding as a pen signature 16:41:21 ... this opens doors to using digital contracts 16:41:42 ... not just small priced, but also high priced, up to $150,000 is enforcable in the US 16:41:53 lost manu 16:42:00 very echoy 16:42:14 sadly, IP telephony is really not up to what it could be 16:42:15 ouch! cell phone 16:42:15 ... calling in on cell phone 16:42:42 + +1.540.641.aagg 16:42:42 ...some drop-outs happening... 16:42:42 ...maybe he fell down a well... 16:42:45 -manu 16:42:49 bzzzzt crscsssdfssdsd bzzttt 16:43:08 ... 4 major participants 16:43:31 ... content owner (creates digital content) music label, music studio, home studio, research, anything digital 16:44:31 ... sales verification authority, identity management, collect royalties, distribute royalties, making sure the network is operating corrections, police DOS, eg digital bazaar, itunes/amazon coudl 16:44:40 s/coudl/could 16:44:44 ... sellers 16:44:51 ... buyers 16:45:01 ... buyers and sellers are almost interchangable 16:45:16 ... a buyer can become a source, just like bittorrent 16:45:23 ... thats how we add scalability 16:45:25 ... questions? 16:45:34 no that seems simple 16:45:43 you have 4 types of users 16:45:58 or 4 roles 16:45:58 ... theres a lot of complexity behind the scenes 16:46:17 ... pricing is calculated, you have to allow pricing independently 16:46:35 ... content owner is allowed to set royalties, independent of the sellers prices 16:46:47 ... sellers then set their prices 16:46:52 ... then there are network fees 16:47:23 ... final price is, royalties plus sellers distribution fee plus network fee 16:47:29 ... spec allows more complexity 16:47:53 ... the network we separate purchasing a licence with purchasing a good 16:48:15 ... eg you can purchase a low definition or high definition stream 16:48:24 ... typically how the content industry would like it to work 16:48:36 sounds sensible 16:48:47 though I would not have thought about doing that 16:49:19 ... typical transaction ... content owner goes to the SVA and registers their content for sale, by uploading a reference file 16:49:27 ... these are my royalties 16:49:32 it seems like it is crucial to allow separate pricing, and that does keep it rather simple. 16:49:47 may some issues about "network" i.e. in distributed apps where you get to one app via another one... 16:49:49 ... once registered on the network, buyers will then find the file on the network 16:49:56 like going to a ad via Google :) 16:50:01 who gets the cash? 16:50:03 ... doesnt have to happen on one website, the system is decentralized 16:50:05 just the last network? 16:50:12 ... eg can be download from a blog 16:50:31 ... part of your pay goes to support a blog 16:50:45 ... you can embed data using rdfa / micrformats 16:51:03 ... buyers find information through a web based mechanism 16:51:07 oshani has joined #swxg 16:51:13 ... they can buy from an individual or from the swarm 16:51:19 ... licence from one person 16:51:27 ... each piece of data from 1000's of people 16:51:38 ... hope it ends up driving distribution costs down 16:51:48 ... eg distributing movies in HD 16:52:05 ... dont need huge capacity, other people will help as they have a financial incentive 16:52:19 ... buyers then seed files by default 16:52:32 ... payswarm faq 16:52:44 -cperey 16:52:51 ... and payswarm use cases 16:53:02 ... things we want to support in version 2.0 e.g. identity 16:53:07 ... dont necessarily need that 16:53:18 ... v 2.0 we're going to try and build in identity / financial management 16:53:23 ... that's a quick overview 16:53:25 ... questions? 16:53:27 q+ 16:53:33 q+ 16:53:40 ack hhalpin 16:53:58 "network trails" 16:54:00 hhalpin: how about the idea of network trails 16:54:37 ... look at distributed networks, you may have several layers to get to your content 16:54:38 So let's say I go to Youtube 16:54:48 that then sends me to a third-party, NoGoodTV 16:54:54 I get content from that. 16:54:58 Can Youtube get a cut? 16:55:15 manu: on a low level, we're going to use a bunch of REST api calls, json format, exchange pieces of information for the transaction 16:55:22 ... send it to the SVA 16:55:30 ... then the purchase process starts 16:55:40 ... exchange between browser / SVA 16:55:50 ... could you elaborate on network trails? 16:56:09 yes, "referrer" is the right word 16:56:13 -Yuk 16:56:22 ... a chain of multiple referrers, does everyone get a cut? 16:56:25 so they CAN be compensated. 16:56:28 ... currently no 16:56:38 ... doesnt make much sense from a business perspective 16:56:47 because that person sends them traffic. 16:56:54 ... why would they want to pay some else 16:56:56 the referrer sends them traffic. 16:57:01 letting them sale more 16:57:31 tpa? I also know you've thought a bit about micropayments.. 16:57:39 ... the seller would be able to choose who else to pay ... we are moving away from the concept of middle men on the network 16:58:19 hhalpin: might be a surprisingly popular option, to have referrers drive traffic to the long tail 16:58:25 ... just throwing a thought out there 16:58:28 ack bblfish 16:58:30 http://www.heppnetz.de/ontologies/goodrelations/v1 16:58:41 bblfish: does this fit in with goodrelations ontology? 16:59:13 AnitaD: talked to mfhepp about payswarm, and am sure we will end up integrating GR with payswarm 16:59:33 ... one of the reasons we got involved with RDFa 16:59:41 ... in our company we have a firefox plugin 16:59:41 q? 16:59:51 ... will work out all purchasable content on that page 16:59:54 q+ to ask about karma 17:00:01 ... can use that info to generate a contract 17:00:06 ... send it to the SVA 17:00:37 ... in the future the browser will scrape the info e.g. in rdfa / microformats, then uses that to figure out the contract and send to the SVA 17:00:59 -Dsr 17:01:11 bblfish: at imperial 1995, people talked about micropayments, why hasnt it taken off? how are you keeping the costs low? 17:01:23 ... fundamental to saving some content providers 17:01:28 q+ standardization 17:01:34 ack standardization 17:01:36 q+ 17:01:43 if I choose to refer to a referrer to a seller, I should get a cut of the referrer's cut ... 17:01:43 if I choose to refer directly to a seller, I should get the entire referrer's cut... 17:01:43 by making the choice of how I refer, I have chosen how the payment should be made. 17:01:44 face-to-face business works well this way. 17:01:44 I think that empirically deciding "there will be no more middle men!" will tend more to stifle business than to encourage it 17:01:48 the same reason we no longer talk about semantic web ;-) 17:02:05 its "linked data" now :) 17:02:21 good idea MacTed 17:02:22 ("don't make me think") 17:02:29 manu: good point, the problem is, P2P / micro payments have a bad rap, interfaces were bothering the user, eg for 1c 2c, most people couldnt be bothered to reach for their wallets 17:02:35 ( mhh interesting: the identity problem resurges ) 17:02:37 ... interactions costs were too high 17:02:42 ... ROI was not there 17:02:57 ... systems not integrated into browser 17:03:04 ... you had to join evercoin etc. 17:03:15 ... wasnt a fundamental part of the web 17:03:28 makes sense :-) 17:04:00 more than anything else, too many micropayment providers makes it too hard on the purchaser 17:04:14 ... requires too much work on the user's behalf, what you would ideally like you to do is say, 'would you like to set your daily/monthly spending limit', the browser would then operate within that limit 17:04:21 +1 this browser idea, was thinking about this when NYTimes tried to charge me this morning :) 17:04:25 ... browser prompts you to increase it 17:04:29 largely because each *seller* tended to have a single relationship with a micropayment provider 17:04:46 ... visa transactions cost too much 17:05:05 transaction aggregation is obviously the way it has to be done 17:05:07 ... payswarm addresses each of these issues 17:05:25 ... you put in $10 or $20 at a time 17:05:35 (yes NYTimes and all the newspapers ask for $25 per year, and one never knows ahead of time if one is ever going to read that much from that site: hence the importance of micropayments. PaySwarm seems to solve this, by making it standard, and make it easy to set policies on payments for a site) 17:05:51 ... creating a world standard for payments couples with browser integration, will reduce friction of transactions 17:05:59 bblfish: thanks, very helpful 17:06:01 when its seamless there is less barrier to entry 17:06:07 -tpa 17:06:14 ... are you feeling browser vendors are helping? 17:06:29 does PaySwarm aim for exclusive arrangements with sellers, i.e., can a seller *only* accept PaySwarm, or can they accept any/all (micro)payment providers 17:06:32 ? 17:06:34 q? 17:06:53 manu: we think the most important people to get on board is the large companies, newspapers, music industries ... going to meet one of the big 4 music labels today 17:07:20 ... if they music industry gets behind it, the web browser can add a small fee 17:07:46 ... dont expect that browsers will not want to refuse this market 17:08:17 ... havent approached browser manufacturers yet, but will in the next few months, but mainly we're trying with the record labels 17:08:29 ack shepazu 17:08:29 shepazu, you wanted to ask about karma 17:08:37 bblfish: thanks 17:08:41 ... dont expect that browsers manufatcturers will not be interested in a market where they can take 1% of every transaction" 17:09:02 manu: source code released for ref impl. hopefully api overview in the next month 17:09:12 ... in the context of the social web 17:09:54 ... and distributed management of a currency 17:10:11 ... eg amazon lets me know how many people have had successful transactions with an entity 17:10:33 ... part of identity management (SVA) can also manage reputation? 17:10:58 ... we need an identity management nexus, dont want to bite off too much work 17:11:07 ... the system is distributed 17:11:19 ... financial payment system distributed 17:11:24 ... rating system distributed 17:11:50 ... 2nd aspect, what if you want to exchange karma 17:12:10 ... an analogy is MMORPG 17:12:19 ... world of warcraft millionaires 17:12:35 ... get magic swords and sell them on ebay 17:12:40 ... changing currencies 17:12:51 ... karma and reputation as a currency, can we distribute that? 17:13:12 it's true it could help adoption to be able to work with game money 17:13:24 ... game money, real money, reputation are mechanisms of distributing credit 17:13:32 because then one could start without getting through big government agencies 17:13:34 ... might make it easier to do some social networking things 17:14:01 ... might now be just about money, something built into the browser, that can be used as a part of exchange 17:14:30 ... in music there's cash and reputation, you can trade one or the other 17:14:36 q+ 17:15:00 ... could tell that to music companies, but it certainly has context in the social web 17:15:12 Yuk has joined #swxg 17:15:14 ... how can people trade reputation among each other 17:15:27 ... unlike money, it's not a scarce resource 17:15:59 bblfish: you can start growing without the overhead of banks etc. can get really big testing grounds 17:16:37 ack hhalpin 17:16:37 manu: the currency of exchange does not have to be USD EUR etc. can be something else 17:17:30 +1 17:17:31 hhalpin: should end the call soonish, may be some standardization, we did have micropayments in the initial charter 17:17:49 ... what's the current state of play 17:18:44 manu: focussed on getting w3c interested, and getting people into the w3c, mobile carriers, app stores, standardized app stores 17:19:02 ... buying and selling research data 17:19:14 ... artists generating work for you 17:19:32 ... primary focus is getting as many people as possible, then getting those people to go to the w3c 17:19:48 member organizations in this xg could help if they want to. 17:19:55 ... if swxg says payswarm should be standarized would be great, and helpful 17:19:57 i.e. endorse a charter etc. 17:20:06 ... w3c already tried micropayments in the 90s 17:20:23 ... dont want to fail at it again 17:20:34 ... may be some resistance to doing this 17:20:54 ... w3c may be cautious, conservative on certain issues, due to reputation concerns 17:21:05 ... best way to overcome objections, is to find major stakeholders 17:21:14 ... wont come from browser vendors 17:21:45 ... opera maybe, but browser vendors in general not, more newspapers, movie houses, record labels 17:21:58 games 17:22:03 ...mobile operators who want to have interoperable app stores... 17:22:06 ... would be good to get bankers interested, paypal, amazon 17:22:10 :) 17:22:22 ... after that see where we can go 17:22:25 though perhaps the W3C could do an XG on this 17:22:26 ... urge w3c to take thison 17:22:36 bblfish: maybe an XG for this? 17:22:45 manu: probably the next step 17:23:03 ... while we're marshalling stakeholders create an XG perhaps 17:23:25 ack bblfish 17:23:25 ... trying to bootstrap, xg would be appropriate, necessary but not sufficient 17:23:34 thanks for presenting 17:23:39 bblfish: where do you put the money? 17:23:54 manu: the money is kept with the SVA 17:24:07 ... we have digital money and digital certificates 17:24:13 ... you're operating as a pseudo bank 17:24:21 ... governments dont like it when you do that 17:24:30 ... SVA handle the money 17:24:56 ... so you dont have an issue in the browser of handling money 17:25:02 ... there isnt even legislation for that 17:25:08 ... you take a regular credit card 17:25:14 ... add money to an SVA 17:25:20 so it's Paypal redux 17:25:26 ... that is linked to the browser 17:25:44 I have to drop off call - sorry! Very interesting presentation. Vodafone might be interested in participating in an XG on this topic, for the record... 17:25:47 bblfish: it's not anonymous 17:25:47 ciao 17:25:53 -DKA 17:26:01 manu: completely the other way, there needs to be strong identity 17:26:34 ... anonymous payments is an interesting concept, but it starts raising red flags to regulatory agencies 17:26:46 trackbot, end meetings 17:26:46 Sorry, hhalpin, I don't understand 'trackbot, end meetings'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help 17:26:47 hhalpin: thanks, end of meeting 17:26:50 -AnitaD 17:26:53 thank you guys 17:26:54 trackbot, end meeting 17:26:54 Zakim, list attendees 17:26:54 As of this point the attendees have been tpa, [IPcaller], Dsr, Doug_Schepers, hhalpin, +1.510.931.aaaa, manu, melvster1, bblfish, +0774811aabb, +049172247aacc, +1.617.838.aadd, 17:26:55 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 17:26:55 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/02/10-swxg-minutes.html trackbot 17:26:56 RRSAgent, bye 17:26:56 I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/10-swxg-actions.rdf : 17:26:56 ACTION: hhalpin to put these principles in new wiki page [1] 17:26:56 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/02/10-swxg-irc#T16-36-28 17:26:58 ... MacTed, AnitaD, DKA, FabGandon, rreck, Yuk, +1.617.848.aaff, cperey, yoshiaki, +1.540.641.aagg 17:26:58 -FabGandon